If You Restat for Decide How Much Dex You Need to Leave

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

There is no looking down involved with saying R8 weapon is not end game. It's just a realistic statement about the current state of the game.

If you see a Psychic running around with a TT90+3 weapon and claiming they are end game does that make them an endgame psychic?

Reading back a few pages the only insults I see are the ones directed at me which I guess speaks about the quality of sin forums

rgog

I think we are just arguing about semantics at this point.

What does the word 'endgame' mean to you. To some people it means the best gear that can be possibly aqcuired but to many if not most it simply means the gear you choose to have as your last gear. If someone came up to me in-game and said this is my endgame gear and it was tt-90 I would just shrug and understand that acquiring gear though the cash shop or farming for a zillion hours was just not part of this persons life. Would they contribute less to a squad I was in, perhaps but I have never choosen squad mates based on gear.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is no looking down involved with saying R8 weapon is not end game. It's just a realistic statement about the current state of the game.

If you see a Psychic running around with a TT90+3 weapon and claiming they are end game does that make them an endgame psychic?

Reading back a few pages the only insults I see are the ones directed at me which I guess speaks about the quality of sin forums

Now you're saying r8 is as pathetic as TT90.
Just stop xD

Empu - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is no looking down involved with saying R8 weapon is not end game. It's just a realistic statement about the current state of the game.

If you see a Psychic running around with a TT90+3 weapon and claiming they are end game does that make them an endgame psychic?

Reading back a few pages the only insults I see are the ones directed at me which I guess speaks about the quality of sin forums

Reading back I see you are the one who said : "Consider though that neither an R8 dagger nor a deicide is an end game weapon". You may take critisism as insults, maybe because on archer forums everyone always agrees with eachother, or because there everyone takes what you say as absolute truth. (EDIT: reading back, this actually looks like an insult lol)

If you take it as a personal insult that I don't agree on your vision about reselling deicides, and that I think the analysis made by ImNotFiveAps is actually more realistic and economically right, I don't see what that has to do with quality of sin forums. (I relate to myself here only, since I can't talk for others)

I suppose our visions of the game, and thus the definition of the term "end game", are fundamentally different. But since you asked, if there actually is a person with tt90 that is completely satisfied with it for everything he/she does, yeah I'd accept it as end game. Just like some casual players I know that have OHT armor and weap as final (to use another term as "endgame") gear.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Empu, will you marry me?

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

Empu, will you marry me?

And today, yet another thread about same sex marriage was made in Suggestion Box.

I find it funny that Asterelle, being a full R9 Archer himself, talks about what is and what is not endgame. Obviously, having gotten Rank 9 via some means, either by cash shopping, merchanting or farming, he's got a certain bias.

And then there's the whole deal with Asterelle being a TW person in a TW faction.

It's also funny that someone as math savvy as Asterelle would compare a Psychic with TT90 to an Assassin with Rank 8. For just about every class, Rank 8 is a high-end weapon in comparison to TT90. Then there's the whole thing about sins being the best DD class in the game. Might as well compare a BM with Calamities to a Sin with Hook and Thorn. That would make some sense.

The whole argument of what is and what is not endgame is silly. Most people can agree that Barrier Thorn: Nirvana is a crappy weapon that only has one use: Getting 5 aps. And yet you see tons and tons of people with it. People who have it +10-12 with 2 Garnet Gems or better. People who never plan to change. And yet, they could've just as easily gotten a Dark Death Thorn or Catastrophe Stinger, both of which are in a whole different realm in comparison to poor old Barrier Thorn: Nirvana. And it's not like 5 aps is the best thing in the game, as is easily proven by a single R9 sin.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

And today, yet another thread about same sex marriage was made in Suggestion Box.

b:laugh

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Isn't it snobish and elitest to look down upon deicide sins? Why is it ok to call deicide sins fail?
Right now in sanc I saw a +10 deicide for 90m while a +10 R8 weapon is over 100m.
The deicides can be resold once the sin gets a better weapon while R8 weapons cannot.

Anyway looking back at ImNotFiveAps's analysis, I don't think he factored in the time it takes for a 2.86 aps sin spam chi skills he needs that maintain permaspark. While a 5aps sin can maintain a natural permaspark with a standard 15s / 3s spark cycle, a 2.86 sin has a spark cycle that's more like 15s / 4.5s. This lowers their average dps by around 8% compared to a natural cycle. Sparking less often also means you have fewer self-purify, less self heal, less time spent in invincibility. These factors lower survivability.

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

R8 is endgame to most people. Clerics mostly. But everyone has their own goals and aspirations for "end game". My 2.86 / 4 aps sin with +5 r8 could be end game. He can tank nirv with no cleric, solo fc, and do most tts. But sadly enough I won't consider myself endgame til I have +12 r9 with drakeflames and dot/Josd shards. But to someone else, they could be perfectly fine with +5 r8, as long as its enough for them to participate in what they enjoy in the game. My cleric has tt99 and it does everything I need it to. Therefore to me it is endgame. I don't care what a cashshopper thinks what my endgame should be, I determine what my endgame is.

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

Oh and asterelle my r8 4aps sin can perma spark so idk what you mean about chi spamming ._.

rgog

Anyway looking back at ImNotFiveAps's analysis, I don't think he factored in the time it takes for a 2.86 aps sin spam chi skills he needs that maintain permaspark. While a 5aps sin can maintain a natural permaspark with a standard 15s / 3s spark cycle, a 2.86 sin has a spark cycle that's more like 15s / 4.5s. This lowers their average dps by around 8% compared to a natural cycle. Sparking less often also means you have fewer self-purify, less self heal, less time spent in invincibility. These factors lower survivability.

Good points, I know from now using my deicides that I am simply more powerful than with my R8, I am not sure exactly why mathematically but I am sure some of the things you noted and some others not being taken into consideration are the reason. I will stat some more str and move my deicides up to +5 and see what happens.

Then again you might want to take into consideration things like needing to swap back to refresh ribstrike or swaping to AOE and stuff like that.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Isn't it snobish and elitest to look down upon deicide sins? Why is it ok to call deicide sins fail?
Right now in sanc I saw a +10 deicide for 90m while a +10 R8 weapon is over 100m.
The deicides can be resold once the sin gets a better weapon while R8 weapons cannot.

Looking down upon deicide sins? It's not about elitism or some such, it's just observing a dumb person being dumb. Anyone who uses deicide clearly thinks, dumb as they are, that being 5 aps by any means necessary will somehow get profit them in the end. It won't. And by doing this, they're also being dumb because they don't realize that aps does not imply dps. And that it's the dps the people are after, just that the aps has a slight correlation with dps.

If you're concerned with getting a better weapon, then you don't +10 a Rank 8 dagger. That's simple. If you do, then you'll be using it for a long time and by the time you can buy something that is stronger than a +10 Rank 8 dagger, the +10 refine will have outlived its usefulness, therefore it was never a waste.

And interestingly, sins have this situation, due to aps, where they're stuck with an untradeable weapon either way. No one uses Lunar weapons for sins, because Rank 8 is better. If you +10 a Lunar Weapon, that's a lost investment, because no one will buy it at anything near the cost. Similarly, TT99s are sold are values much below their manufacturing cost: I've seen +5 TT99 green daggers in AH for 4m coins each when freaking TT80 costs 4.6m to make. And that dagger was in AH for weeks.

So yeah, either way, you'll be refining a weapon that you cannot sell for anything comparable to the costs or none at all. So that point is moot.

Anyway looking back at ImNotFiveAps's analysis, I don't think he factored in the time it takes for a 2.86 aps sin spam chi skills he needs that maintain permaspark. While a 5aps sin can maintain a natural permaspark with a standard 15s / 3s spark cycle, a 2.86 sin has a spark cycle that's more like 15s / 4.5s. This lowers their average dps by around 8% compared to a natural cycle. Sparking less often also means you have fewer self-purify, less self heal, less time spent in invincibility. These factors lower survivability

Well of course he didn't factor those in. He also ignored Wolf Emblem and Attack Levels. The former obviously favors Rank 8 because it has much higher crit.

One of the biggest downsides of a deicide sin isn't that Deicide itself sucks. It's that you don't get to use skills. You lose great advantages such as Tidal Protection, Focused Mind, Subsea Strike, Power Dash, Rib Strike and possibly Wolf Emblem. All of these factors lower your survivability and DPS to a point where Deicide turns into a steaming heap of ****.

It's sad that one of the most popular Assassin solo videos on YouTube happens to be a 5 aps tt100 sin doing FCC. What people seem to always ignore is that he's got 5 aps with Chill of the Deep, which means he's got every single other piece of -interval. So he does not need Deicide to be 5 aps, he would be 4 aps with any Dagger, 5 with Nirvana or Hitman Legend. And being that he's got tt100 fists, he certainly could afford Barrier Thorn: Nirvana What this means is that he's not 5 aps due to necessity but choice. That is a great, great difference from others . 99% of all Deicide sins are Deicide sins due to convenience. They have a BM with a highly refined Deicide or they use Deicide to get to 5 aps. This guy, he's got it all already, he doesn't have to use the tt100 for 5 aps. He just likes it.

Oh and asterelle my r8 4aps sin can perma spark so idk what you mean about chi spamming ._.

Well of course you can do that. But the minimum aps you'd have with daggers to be 5 aps with Deicide is 2.0/2.86 for a Demon or 2.5 for Sage.

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

Rgog that's because you don't have all the other -int gear. If you did and your r8 was 4 aps you'd out dd the hell oiut of those deicides. As i said in this thread 100 times, decides are a cheap 5 aps, but there's no room for improvement without overhauling your build and gear at some point. You're effectively capped right there with your current dps.

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

And I did calc in attack levels actually. And I don't need to calc in chi spamming because the sin I used has all int gear, and 4 aps. Which is why deicides are cheaper, they dont need all of that gear. Please kids, read the ****ing thread before acting like a know it all *cough*asterelle*cough*

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Ashivas - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Rgog that's because you don't have all the other -int gear. If you did and your r8 was 4 aps you'd out dd the hell oiut of those deicides. As i said in this thread 100 times, decides are a cheap 5 aps, but there's no room for improvement without overhauling your build and gear at some point. You're effectively capped right there with your current dps.

Sadly, that's all a lot of people see. They see the calls on world chat for 4+ aps sins and they figure that if they get that 4-5 aps with any means necessary, they'll get into those dreamy Nirvana squads that take less than 10 minutes to finish. In reality, those squads don't take people based on aps, especially not clawsins. And a lot of those people are in a situation where they can arrange those nirvana squads without ever having to WC. Logic would state that a lot of those "high aps wc squads" are actually people who are looking to piggyback on someone else's high dps. And getting into such a squad won't benefit anyone. Except the piggybackers.

And I did calc in attack levels actually. And I don't need to calc in chi spamming because the sin I used has all int gear, and 4 aps. Which is why deicides are cheaper, they dont need all of that gear. Please kids, read the ****ing thread before acting like a know it all *cough*asterelle*cough*

Trust me, anyone who has all the -interval gear isn't going to be using Deicides. Well, not unless they happen to have a BM/barb/archer main and have a highly refined Deicide.

And most of the people who consider using Deicide for aps are in the situation that rgog is and which Asterelle assumed: 2.22/2.86 demons. Then again, those people also don't have Nirvana leggings or a tome and consider them "too expensive". Considering how easy it is to get 100m+ coins in the game, the fact that you have people going for Deicide at 2.22/2.86 aps because any other option is "too expensive" tells you that they are the casual kind of players. The ones that spend what they have when they have it.

Personally, being a 2.22 aps Sage, some kind of group mentality should state that I'd be looking into getting Deicides for 4-5 aps. Interestingly, I'm not. I'm also not a cash shopper and I'm not too successful as a merchant either. However, I know people. A friend of mine is a 5 aps BM, another one would be Empu right here. Knowing people gets you much farther than gear.

What this tells me of people like rgog is that he's probably in a low-tier faction or factionless, not much of a talker. Also tells me that he's probably an f2p player and doesn't merchant. He doesn't merchant for one of the usual reasons: 1. Fear of making losses on your investment 2. Fear of not succeeding 3. Inability to keep an afk catshop on for extended periods of time 4. Lack of starting capital. Interestingly, all of those could be solved by knowing people. You know people, they'll help you get what you need, either by merchanting for you, giving you a loan or helping you farm.

As for what talking does? Well, I randomly messages Empu one day when I saw his character. Now he's on my flist, we talk regularly and have done some runs together. Also, I randomly messages Azgarius one day after seeing his TM video. That got me a pretty much free cape for my troubles.

rgog

I pretty much agree with everything said. I see my +2 deicides are doing better for me than my +3 R8 but the skill stuff is a bit of a pain. I still buff prior to fights and will swap out to refresh ribstrike/wolf emblem on tough bosses but I would much rather have my -int from other things. I would for sure trade my -.2 (deicides) into -.15 (lionheart set, shadow legs, tome) but that would cost me hundreds of millions and I don't find it easy to farm a 100 million at a time. In fact it seems like everyone is selling the same things these days and TT mats other than rare 3-? are a dime a dozen.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Weapon switching actually doesn't cost any time if it is done during the cast animation. You can weapon switch during a triple spark at no time cost.

Most sins I've seen with R8 daggers don't have full int gear. The tome costs 300m while the pants cost like 150m, both of which are more expensive than the daggers. The group of 4.0 dagger R8 sins is pretty small.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Weapon switching actually doesn't cost any time if it is done during the cast animation. You can weapon switch during a triple spark at no time cost.

Most sins I've seen with R8 daggers don't have full int gear. The tome costs 300m while the pants cost like 150m, both of which are more expensive than the daggers. The group of 4.0 dagger R8 sins is pretty small.

That would be because most people opt to get Barrier Thorn: Nirvana over the tome and settle down with that 5.0 aps.

Though, the argument that most sins with R8 don't have full int gear is silly. After all, the amount of people with full int gear is a far, far smaller set than the amount of people with Rank 8.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Though, the argument that most sins with R8 don't have full int gear is silly. After all, the amount of people with full int gear is a far, far smaller set than the amount of people with Rank 8.

Normally if you find an argument to be silly you provide evidence against it. You did the opposite by providing evidence that supports it so I am not sure which side you are on.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Normally if you find an argument to be silly you provide evidence against it. You did the opposite by providing evidence that supports it so I am not sure which side you are on.

Ever considered the option that maybe I don't have a side?

And I did not consider it silly because it's true or untrue, but because it's obvious. There is no argument for an obvious truth. Unless you're a fool. Therefore, silly argument.

All I ever did was point that Ashivas here was talking about his personal sin with 4 aps whereas you were talking about a 2.22/2.86 demon. Which means that you were "arguing" over different things. Again, silly argument as you're not even on the same plate.

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

Ast you might as well say most people don't have full -int gear. It isn't about r8 users or any weapon user, full int gear is effing expensive so very few have it. But when you do get it, its totally worth it, and it puts those terrible deicides to shame. That's the argument. Compared to the traditional dagger sin, deicides are vastly inferior to any end game dagger, and if r8 isnt end game to you, then what the **** are deicides?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Alright I see. In terms of DPS, if you don't have full int gear, Deicides are not inferior and offer some other advantages:

-a large second hand market to get a good deal
-easy to resell when you're done with them
-easier time permasparking with less downtime casting chi skills

If you're not going to stop at R8 I wouldn't call a deicide-using sin "dumb" or "fail" or "worthless".

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

Deicides at 5 aps do out dd r8 at 2.86 but the thing is once r8 hits 3.33 its close to even, and once it hits 4 it isn't even close. People ask for 4-5 aps sins assuming they use dags. G13 at 5 aps and r8 at 4 aps both real 35-45k more damage per second than deicide sins. Thats a lot if you didn't notice Mr archer. Deicides are an ineffective inefficient cheap way to get 5 aps. it helps you in the short term, but no matter what you eventually fall behind the dag user. And you'll be forced to rebuild your sin or get left behind.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Ashivas - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Deicides at 5 aps do out dd r8 at 2.86 but the thing is once r8 hits 3.33 its close to even, and once it hits 4 it isn't even close. People ask for 4-5 aps sins assuming they use dags. G13 at 5 aps and r8 at 4 aps both real 35-45k more damage per second than deicide sins. Thats a lot if you didn't notice Mr archer. Deicides are an ineffective inefficient cheap way to get 5 aps. it helps you in the short term, but no matter what you eventually fall behind the dag user. And you'll be forced to rebuild your sin or get left behind.

If a person is using gear from bm/barb there is no downside to just sticking to claws. The cost is super low with fairly good results, and this is especially true if it's just used on occasion for PvE stuff.

And all of you saying daggers do more damage cool, but the claw sins spent a whole lot less coin. b:pleased

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

Jeez asterelle, its as if you didn't read a word of this thread, even after I said read it before acting like a know it all. And under your logic why even get aps? Just stick with 1.25 its a lot less coin.

Daggers beat claws. The point of a sin is to maximize dps, not be eonomical. If you can't afford to pimp the sin out dont ****ing make it. If you already have a pimped out barb or bm then just use its gear, its all already been said. Please read the hread, don't tldr it. You look like an idiot when you do :-)

Empu - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Right now in sanc I saw a +10 deicide for 90m while a +10 R8 weapon is over 100m. The deicides can be resold once the sin gets a better weapon while R8 weapons cannot.

This is exactly where I consider your analysis unrealistic. There are actually 2 investments here. The high refines (let's say after +5, where you either need orbs or have a big risk of spending heaps of mirages) should be considered seperately from the weapon, because the motivations are different from weapon choise.

Someone chooses a weapon based on characteristics (dps, dph, requirements, etc.) and cost. Someone decides the refines, above an easy to get +4/5, on the time he/she plans on using a weapon. Refining a weapon will never get you the extra resell value of just selling the orb (unless you are lucky to go to +9 with tishas and never fail ofc). That is why so many have G13 vana at +10. This is the effect of value and time being related. Also, this being a thread about temporary gear to farm your way up, I don't think +10 refines are even in the picture.
EDIT : I on purpose leave out the additional cashflow generated by higher refines on a weapon, because that would only put more hypothesis. On top of that, the total cashflow from refines is also directly related to the time you use the weapon you refined.

Next to that, there is the investment in weapon. A basic deicide (immac and +5) will be what? 40mil? I'm not sure, cause deicides don't really interest me, so don't follow the value that much. However, in absolute figures, deicides price seems rather stable. Which means that they loose value compared to the other items. This is a bit hard to take into account, because inflation on pack items is really high, while cost of tt99 is actually stable. So let's assume they keep their value. Getting r8 daggers +5 with immacs would cost like 10mil. It's not unrealistic to add a part of the rep cost, however, you can't consider the rep cost as "lost". Most use r8 plate as final chest part, and in a perspective of evolution, maybe the person would get r9 some day. Therefore, it's easier to just attribute the rep cost to the plate.
Now most I see say "deicides can be resold, so are cheaper". If you want to make a correct comparison, you have to take into account deicides cost a lot more cash initially. And thus, you have to compare deicides vs r8 + 30mil to use during the time you spend farming for your better gear. That 30mil, over a reasonable farming time of a non-cashshopper that will be several months, is more then likely to produce way more profit, after substraction of the 10mil lost on r8, then the deicides being resold (after deduction of a reset note, which should be taken into account as well).

Ofc, a persons situation is to be taken into account. If they have a bm, or don't have 200k rep, or plan on making a bm after, things are different. But no, the resel value itself doesn't make deicides cheaper. Their higher initial cash input has to be considered. The relation between time and value is fundamental in investment comparisons.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

This is exactly where I consider your analysis unrealistic. There are actually 2 investments here. The high refines (let's say after +5, where you either need orbs or have a big risk of spending heaps of mirages) should be considered seperately from the weapon, because the motivations are different from weapon choise.

I'm just going to direct you to the post I made above. No matter what there is a set of very specific advantages to deicides that are not found with R8 daggers that make them useful in some circumstances.

Calling deicide using sins fail is too narrow minded of a view.

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm just going to direct you to the post I made above. No matter what there is a set of very specific advantages to deicides that are not found with R8 daggers that make them useful in some circumstances.

Calling deicide using sins fail is too narrow minded of a view.

They are fail, compared to dagger sins. Exactly 37k dps fail. Its cheaper, but that's no excuse to gimp your dps. It's a shortcut and thats it. A shortcut that to me isn't worth the effort.

Empu - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm just going to direct you to the post I made above. No matter what there is a set of very specific advantages to deicides that are not found with R8 daggers that make them useful in some circumstances.

Calling deicide using sins fail is too narrow minded of a view.

I heard you are good in math, however, financial math doesn't seem to be your thing. Like I tried to show you above, in 95% of the considerations deicides are actually more expensive. Besides that, they are not the best choice dps wise, which is 1 of the main points of a sin.

Therefore, I, personnally, consider deicides as a wrong investment under pretty much any circumstance. I just hope some ppl see how a "you can resell them"-statement doesn't make them cheaper. I repeat, you can't compare putting in 40mil at a moment "t", to putting in 10mil at the same moment "t". Nor can you consider reselling those deicides at 40mil+ by default as a profit. If you or some other sin considers deicides are better based on the weapon caracteristics (I consider scalableness, not sure about the spelling here, as a caracteristic), sure, why not. After all, there are also axeclerics, fistvenos etc. As long as someone is happy with it, who cares. But I'm highly doubtfull on that point in the case of a sin with 200k rep.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Think we're running in circles here because we're arguing different things. We started looking at cost:benefit analysis of dagger/fists and we are all setting different baselines of what we could consider "worth it." Some say Rank 8 for the armor plate is worth the cost of 200k rep. Some say Deicide and 3.33 base is more worth it. Or 2.86 base. Some say the 220 mil for G13 is worth the cost. Others compare the cost of Rank 8 + a tome vs. the cost of G13 with a factor of 1 or 2 sockets(90% 1 socket chance, 10% 2 sockets) worth the cost because there is a small chance of increased dps. Some stop refining at +5. Others +7. Others +10. Others +12. They all have different baselines and goals for their equipment and this scews any mathmatics we can throw out as we are now arguing "what'd be worth it" without considering opportunity costs (having HA gear already, farming speed) or about 50 different intangibles.


Basically, "What is it worth to you?" when deciding equipment maybe different for each person.

Btw, the OP hasn't posted for almost 40 posts, and made another thread detailing his Deicide experiences.
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1175131

Think we can use a summary of Deicides vs Daggers, I guess.