If You Restat for Decide How Much Dex You Need to Leave

rgog

I see a lot of people restating for minimum str for decide but what if you did max. str - could you then also not wear some nice heavy armor to compiment your 5 aps?

I saw a video on youtube with a decide SIN soloing fc pretty easy at 101 with 4 base aps, since getting to 5 aps with daggers will cost me 500m+ I thought it might be easier to use decide to farm my way there. switching to daggers to use skills is relatively simple so I wonder what is the downside? I can then grab a reset note when there is a sale and move back to daggers once I have the coin for tome and shadow greaves then farm my nirvana daggers.

Evict - Heavens Tear

Or roll a BM. Last I checked they were meant to have optimal strength, claws and HA.

rgog

Ya, but my goal is to restat for daggers once I get the coin.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

It's very simple.

If you want to wear HA and use Deicides, then quite simply, forget daggers.

In fact, forget Deicides.

1) Get a much higher DPS fist or claw that requires more Str, as HA will require more Str than Deicides will need anyway.
2) Once you've put that much Str in and pulled that much Dex out, your dagger DPS is cut a lot. You may as well go with the minimum Dex needed for your fists or claws of choice, and dump as much as possible into Str for maximum DPS. Use some nubby daggers to buff and grab occasional sparks when needed.
3) Refine your HA and suddenly realize that you now have almost twice the HP at +10 with Nirvana HA than if you +12'ed R9. Toss in +10 Vit gems and you will have nearly 33k PDef when BM and Cleric buffed. Put a few iceborne gems in and you can keep the 33k PDef but still obtain the 6k MDef that LA tends to cap at without sharding for MDef.

This is an awesome build for farming. 5.0 with demon spark, enough DPS to kill **** quickly, and enough defenses to shrug off damage that would be scary on an LA Sin.

It's not really for PK, but I can see this being used as a Cata-Sin. Shard with JOSD or more Iceborns and you'd be pretty much a brick wall to everything, 20K HP and 10K Mdef/28K Pdef wouldn't be easy to kill for much other than maybe an R9 Psy.

But, the best benefit from this comes from being able to stash the gear to a barb and use it on that character. Or a BM. If you aren't gonna share the gear, really, it's a waste to even think of it. QQ

Typhyse - Sanctuary

5.0 base can be achieved on sins and archers with Deicides. I'd have 5 base if I switched to them.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Typhyse - Sanctuary wrote: »

5.0 base can be achieved on sins and archers with Deicides. I'd have 5 base if I switched to them.

I'll probably end up getting Deicides on my sin just for giggles after I get my Nirvana leggings.

Typhyse - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'll probably end up getting Deicides on my sin just for giggles after I my Nirvana leggings.

I've considered it xD

SinFulGodX - Sanctuary

I already got mine b:pleased b:shutup

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Since I used my old +10 Deicides on my sin from 95-99 before rank 8, I can tell you that 2.86 rank 8 daggers out DD's 5 aps Deicides, even though I had 153 str to use my BMs vana helm which is more than most sins.

I'll say it again, dps=survivability for a sin which is why I see moves like this lateral. If you stat for HA to take less dmg you lose survivability because you lose damage. Even if you stat vitality instead of dex, its a lateral trade off. I even say it about sage spark vs demon spark when 25% dmg reduction seems to give you less survivability than 25% more paint heals coming at a quicker rate (in before "isawarank9demonsinwhocouldnt tankwith3kpdefand4khp")

edit: btw, 9th post and no one answered OP because its such an easy thing to look up for yourself. You need 193 dex for Deicides, but try to land it on 200 with gear, even if full str for the extra crit %.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Dont get deicides. Fist/claw sins are a joke.

Empu - Sanctuary

rgog wrote: »

switching to daggers to use skills is relatively simple so I wonder what is the downside?

Downside is that you gimp your damage a lot. Damage is why you are invited for vana, and how you can efficiently solo instances. Being 5 aps with deicides won't make you more wanted then being lower aps with daggers (unless you consider some idiots in wc). Being 5 aps with deicides won't make you solo better/faster then lower aps with daggers.

Also, survivability of HA is kinda overrated, because the magic def is really low. Even with higher hp from refines (that will be low since you "wear it to make coins for good gear"), you end up being oneshotted more easy then with LA. All "natural HA classes" have more hp return from the vit adds on HA, and at least 1 skill to make up for the low magic def (marrows, adrenaline numbness, hp buff+tiger form)

@ Saku : that made me gigle b:chuckle

Traz - Dreamweaver

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Downside is that you gimp your damage a lot. Damage is why you are invited for vana, and how you can efficiently solo instances. Being 5 aps with deicides won't make you more wanted then being lower aps with daggers (unless you consider some idiots in wc). Being 5 aps with deicides won't make you solo better/faster then lower aps with daggers.

Also, survivability of HA is kinda overrated, because the magic def is really low. Even with higher hp from refines (that will be low since you "wear it to make coins for good gear"), you end up being oneshotted more easy then with LA. All "natural HA classes" have more hp return from the vit adds on HA, and at least 1 skill to make up for the low magic def (marrows, adrenaline numbness, hp buff+tiger form)

@ Saku : that made me gigle b:chuckle

no, APS is why you're invited to nirvana. Like i've seen if you build the claw/fist sin right it's not a unspeakable damage difference (still more then BMs/Barbs/Archers). If you want more farming toons to nirvana your little heart out with (and you don't want to buy a LA set since you have a HA set) go for it. I don't like sins with mine str on this build though.... just stating that to be clear.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Dont get deicides. Fist/claw sins are a joke.

Oh, are they?

I just looked at it and found the following results:
Sage at 2.5 aps +10 R8: 71,291 dps
Sage at 5.0 aps +10 Deicide: 75,514 dps
Demon at 3.33 aps +10 R8: 90,224 dps
Demon at 5.0 aps +10 Deicide: 72,182 dps

A few notes of these numbers:
Sage at 5.0 has more DPS than Demon because of Sage Wolf Emblem
Demon barely benefits at all from Deicide, because they'd have 5.0 with any fists, so using something more powerful like GV or Cube or Nirvana would be better

I chose 2.5 because it's a pretty good number to compare to, as it's the minimum for a Sage to achieve a comfortable permaspark, it does not require a tome and it's the minimum for a Sage to get 5.0 just with equipping a Deicide.

Obviously, it's not a "fair" comparison in all fields. For one, I was using a private template that has my own gear, which includes eccentric choices such as a Christmas Tome, Rank 8 ring and a Band from Heaven's Jail. I also decided not to change any gear for the comparisons.

Though, looking at it from just this, you would indeed say that Deicide is pretty much useless. The only time where Deicide shines is the 5.0 clawsage. And trust me, the only reason for that is the high refine: Deicide gets a better refine than Rank 8. Make those into +5's and Deicide ends up having ~10% less dps.

no, APS is why you're invited to nirvana. Like i've seen if you build the claw/fist sin right it's not a unspeakable damage difference (still more then BMs/Barbs/Archers). If you want more farming toons to nirvana your little heart out with (and you don't want to buy a LA set since you have a HA set) go for it. I don't like sins with mine str on this build though.... just stating that to be clear.

Um... you're talking to a Rank 9 Sage sin there. And trust me, he gets Nirvana action. Lots of it. In fact,
he gets to pick his Nirvana squads. And he's 2.86.

And trust me, APS doesn't really make things easier. A Sage sin should be able to permaspark comfortably at 2.5 aps, which is a pretty low number. And in terms of DPS increments, having a +10 refined weapon is better than having 2.86 aps over 2.5.

And it's not really about the damage difference, it's about the stupidity of it all. Claws get you 5 aps yes. They get it to you relatively early. However, stupid people are stupid and won't realize that at the same APS, they should be able to permaspark comfortably whether they are Demon or Sage. And if you have a decent funding, you'll be a 3.33 Demon Sin anyway which means you can permaspark really nicely.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh, are they?

I just looked at it and found the following results:
Sage at 2.5 aps +10 R8: 71,291 dps
Sage at 5.0 aps +10 Deicide: 75,514 dps
Demon at 3.33 aps +10 R8: 90,224 dps
Demon at 5.0 aps +10 Deicide: 72,182 dps

A few notes of these numbers:
Sage at 5.0 has more DPS than Demon because of Sage Wolf Emblem
Demon barely benefits at all from Deicide, because they'd have 5.0 with any fists, so using something more powerful like GV or Cube or Nirvana would be better

I chose 2.5 because it's a pretty good number to compare to, as it's the minimum for a Sage to achieve a comfortable permaspark, it does not require a tome and it's the minimum for a Sage to get 5.0 just with equipping a Deicide.

Obviously, it's not a "fair" comparison in all fields. For one, I was using a private template that has my own gear, which includes eccentric choices such as a Christmas Tome, Rank 8 ring and a Band from Heaven's Jail. I also decided not to change any gear for the comparisons.

Though, looking at it from just this, you would indeed say that Deicide is pretty much useless. The only time where Deicide shines is the 5.0 clawsage. And trust me, the only reason for that is the high refine: Deicide gets a better refine than Rank 8. Make those into +5's and Deicide ends up having ~10% less dps.

Be curious what would happen if you stat for HA and minimum dex for GV, full Str build.

Maybe I will go HA Sage GV build for farming... But only if I can restat back to pure dex again when I get bored with it. QQ

Empu - Sanctuary

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

no, APS is why you're invited to nirvana.

On sanc, the wc changed from "[...] pm clas & aps" to "[...] pm class with aps + weapon link". Where on that first "5 aps sin" would give you a spot, nowadays "5 aps sin *deicide*" would be most probably rejected unless they can't find anything else.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Be curious what would happen if you stat for HA and minimum dex for GV, full Str build.

Maybe I will go HA Sage GV build for farming... But only if I can restat back to pure dex again when I get bored with it. QQ

Well, using the same pwcalc bases I used for the other numbers with 200 statted to dex and rest into strength, you end up with a 5.0 Sage with +10 Deicide scoring 81,881 dps.

GV can't really be factored accurately mainly because I can't remember the exact percentage of time that it was supposed to be active, which was in the 80s, but I believe archers prefer GV over Deicide either because GV has heals or because it has higher DPS.

On sanc, the wc changed from "[...] pm clas & aps" to "[...] pm class with aps + weapon link". Where on that first "5 aps sin" would give you a spot, nowadays "5 aps sin *deicide*" would be most probably rejected unless they can't find anything else.

I haven't seen too many WCs asking for a weapon link in the wc itself. Though, I have seen that some people have lowered the standard to 2.86. Hopefully because of some notoriously evil Rank 9 Sage sins with 2.86 aps.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Well, using the same pwcalc bases I used for the other numbers with 200 statted to dex and rest into strength, you end up with a 5.0 Sage with +10 Deicide scoring 81,881 dps.

GV can't really be factored accurately mainly because I can't remember the exact percentage of time that it was supposed to be active, which was in the 80s, but I believe archers prefer GV over Deicide either because GV has heals or because it has higher DPS.

Archers prefer GV's for the following reasons:

1) As you mentioned, you get 5% HP on Revenge Proc
2) You were right, GV will out DPS a Deicide (GV +10 with a G11 garnet vs Deicide +10 with G11 Garnet, the GV does a higher DPS at 5.0 counting the procs and spark)
3) A 2 socket, +6 GV can be had on Sanctuary for 22-30 mil, 35 mil if you can find one with G11 Garnets in it, VS the 55 mil AND UP for a one socket +4 Deicide; For what you save getting a GV with two sockets vs Deicide with one, you can put in better shards or refine it further
4) GV requires less Str than Deicide, so you lose less DPS on your R9 bow

Personally... I'm going to get a GV for my Archer eventually. My Archer is Sage, so I will be going for 5.0 Base. That means the works. I might try doing GV fists build on Sin, but it wouldn't be permanent by any means. Sage BP + 5.0 + Revenge Proc = ???

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

Archers prefer GV's for the following reasons:

1) As you mentioned, you get 5% HP on Revenge Proc
2) You were right, GV will out DPS a Deicide (GV +10 with a G11 garnet vs Deicide +10 with G11 Garnet, the GV does a higher DPS at 5.0 counting the procs and spark)
3) A 2 socket, +6 GV can be had on Sanctuary for 22-30 mil, 35 mil if you can find one with G11 Garnets in it, VS the 55 mil AND UP for a one socket +4 Deicide; For what you save getting a GV with two sockets vs Deicide with one, you can put in better shards or refine it further
4) GV requires less Str than Deicide, so you lose less DPS on your R9 bow

1. 5% hp proc is useful for archer who don't get bloodpaint. Sins do.

2. Not sure this is accurate. If I remember my math it was around +8 that Deicides higher refine took over dps assuming GV was procing 100% of the time. In actuality GV proc, even permasparking, is likely to only be on a portion of the time (92% of the time). Proc would be even less if you are swapping for wolf emblem, subsea, tidal/focussed, etc...
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1120321 <<Has the math for Deicide vs GV since I was too lazy to do it. It's at +8 Deicides become better dps assuming 100% of the time GV is proced (adding to GVs calced dps), but it also is adding Blazing Arrow dmg (adding to Deicide calced dps). Removal of the archer buff and the actual time Revenge would be added keeps it at about +8.
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=915992 Another great discussion.

3. True, but Deicides will have better resale at higher refines. No one wants to pay 160 mil for GVs because you +10 them and added a G11 garnet. You wont get near your investment back. Deicides are more shard/refine worthy.


http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/14868 TT90 gold would be a good sin option (for cheap) since it has SS.
http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/16108 So might Cube fists for its berserk effect.


Edit: Just want to point out, Vana wise a 5 aps clawsin is like a bad bm with worse damage, squishier, and doesn't have HF. Basically, it brings the sin back to being a painthoar.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Oh, are they?

I just looked at it and found the following results:
Sage at 2.5 aps +10 R8: 71,291 dps
Sage at 5.0 aps +10 Deicide: 75,514 dps
Demon at 3.33 aps +10 R8: 90,224 dps
Demon at 5.0 aps +10 Deicide: 72,182 dps

A few notes of these numbers:
Sage at 5.0 has more DPS than Demon because of Sage Wolf Emblem
Demon barely benefits at all from Deicide, because they'd have 5.0 with any fists, so using something more powerful like GV or Cube or Nirvana would be better

I chose 2.5 because it's a pretty good number to compare to, as it's the minimum for a Sage to achieve a comfortable permaspark, it does not require a tome and it's the minimum for a Sage to get 5.0 just with equipping a Deicide.

Obviously, it's not a "fair" comparison in all fields. For one, I was using a private template that has my own gear, which includes eccentric choices such as a Christmas Tome, Rank 8 ring and a Band from Heaven's Jail. I also decided not to change any gear for the comparisons.

Though, looking at it from just this, you would indeed say that Deicide is pretty much useless. The only time where Deicide shines is the 5.0 clawsage. And trust me, the only reason for that is the high refine: Deicide gets a better refine than Rank 8. Make those into +5's and Deicide ends up having ~10% less dps.

I like how you try to prove me wrong, then at the end say they are useless b:chuckle

Here's what i came up with.


Rank 8 +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 125,380
Sage no tome 94,129
Demon w/ tome 152,662
Sage w/ tome 109,154

R8 build: http://pwcalc.com/b53d4683e989308e


Deicide +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 115,835
Sage no tome 115,835
Demon w/ tome 118,602
Sage w/ tome 118,602

Deicide build: http://pwcalc.com/8661f1a6a078ecec

As you can see R8 beats deicides as demon, Deicides win as sage. Who goes sage though?? b:question

Idk how well this will format in so I may have to edit this btw. And again, this is assuming you have all other pieces of -int gear except for tome. I just don't see the benefit of roleplaying a BM for "farming purposes". If you're farming effectively and you wanna do it cheap. Would you even +10 deicides? And if your answer is "well duh it'd be slow if you didn't", isnt using deicides slower than just using R8 and a tome or g13? Yes, Deicdes only cost 50mil, while a tome or g13 will cost 250-300 mil. I just don't see the point. Factor in the cost of your other gear ffs.

Traz - Dreamweaver

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I like how you try to prove me wrong, then at the end say they are useless b:chuckle

Here's what i came up with.


Rank 8 +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 125,380
Sage no tome 94,129
Demon w/ tome 152,662
Sage w/ tome 109,154

R8 build: http://pwcalc.com/b53d4683e989308e


Deicide +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 115,835
Sage no tome 115,835
Demon w/ tome 118,602
Sage w/ tome 118,602

Deicide build: http://pwcalc.com/8661f1a6a078ecec

As you can see R8 beats deicides in every situation except for sage claw sin.


Idk how well this will format in so I may have to edit this btw. And again, this is assuming you have all other pieces of -int gear except for tome. I just don't see the benefit of roleplaying a BM for "farming purposes". If you're farming effectively and you wanna do it cheap. Would you even +10 deicides? And if your answer is "well duh it'd be slow if you didn't", isnt using deicides slower than just using R8 and a tome or g13? Yes, Deicdes only cost 50mil, while a tome or g13 will cost 250-300 mil. I just don't see the point. Factor in the cost of your other gear ffs.

Numbers aren't very convincing to farm a full LA set if a bm makes a sin just for collecting keys and running extra nirvanas (either 99 key quests or when main runs out).

Someone calc r8 +10 to a bm who has all -int and just want to stat sin to str and use chill of deep (demon) still being 5.0.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Numbers aren't very convincing to farm a full LA set if a bm makes a sin just for collecting keys and running extra nirvanas (either 99 key quests or when main runs out).

Someone calc r8 +10 to a bm who has all -int and just want to stat sin to str and use chill of deep (demon) still being 5.0.

I'm pretty sure the common concensus is if you're recycling gear on same account or just want a couple extra keys go for it.

But to sit there, on your sin main, and ditch dags for claws is straight dumb. Sorry, try and prove me wrong with your intangibles like "extra chi" and b/s. It's pretty simple. If you're not recycling your gear don't waste your time because the only people who will take you on nirvs if you're using deicides are idiots, friends, and desperate WCers.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I like how you try to prove me wrong, then at the end say they are useless b:chuckle

Here's what i came up with.


Rank 8 +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 125,380
Sage no tome 94,129
Demon w/ tome 152,662
Sage w/ tome 109,154

R8 build: http://pwcalc.com/b53d4683e989308e


Deicide +10 Sparked
Demon no tome 115,835
Sage no tome 115,835
Demon w/ tome 118,602
Sage w/ tome 118,602

Deicide build: http://pwcalc.com/8661f1a6a078ecec

As you can see R8 beats deicides as demon, Deicides win as sage. Who goes sage though?? b:question

There are lots of good sages. I'm one, Empu is another.

Finally, I wasn't trying to prove anyone wrong. I just asked a simple question.

Also, the setup you chose is kinda questionable. No Nirvana helm? Not to mention that you probably ignored Wolf Emblem.

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Numbers aren't very convincing to farm a full LA set if a bm makes a sin just for collecting keys and running extra nirvanas (either 99 key quests or when main runs out).

Someone calc r8 +10 to a bm who has all -int and just want to stat sin to str and use chill of deep (demon) still being 5.0.

Then again if your only purpose is 99 keys, why not make another BM?

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

There are lots of good sages. I'm one, Empu is another.

It was a joke ._.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

There are lots of good sages. I'm one, Empu is another.

Finally, I wasn't trying to prove anyone wrong. I just asked a simple question.

Also, the setup you chose is kinda questionable. No Nirvana helm? Not to mention that you probably ignored Wolf Emblem.



Then again if your only purpose is 99 keys, why not make another BM?

Making the same class is boring, and who wouldn't want to be able to stealth.

PS seroiusly I still want to see what full -int HA build sin using chill does dmg wise vs r8 sin.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Making the same class is boring, and who wouldn't want to be able to stealth.

Stealth is so very useful in Nirvana. What with all of those level 150 bosses and such long walks. Yeah.

And you're obviously making those alternative characters to be pragmatic. Making them unpragmatic classes is contradictory. That's some issues you got there. Better look into them.

Traz - Dreamweaver

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

Stealth is so very useful in Nirvana. What with all of those level 150 bosses and such long walks. Yeah.

And you're obviously making those alternative characters to be pragmatic. Making them unpragmatic classes is contradictory. That's some issues you got there. Better look into them.

My sin isn't even claws. But I see no reason to yell at some of my friends that put all their HA stuff on a sin to do w/e and call them fail....

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Making the same class is boring, and who wouldn't want to be able to stealth.

PS seroiusly I still want to see what full -int HA build sin using chill does dmg wise vs r8 sin.

Using this build: http://pwcalc.com/c75777210094862c

With level 10 Chill on reducing aps to 4... your dps calculates out to...

A

WHOPPING

GRAND

TOTAL

OF.........

115,532. Almost exactly identical to Regular 5 aps deicides with LA.



Now if you use Chill level 6. (Highest level you can have and still be 5 aps). Your dps jumps to 139,000. Still less than R8 with a tome.

Traz - Dreamweaver

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Using this build: http://pwcalc.com/c75777210094862c

With level 10 Chill on reducing aps to 4... your dps calculates out to...

A

WHOPPING

GRAND

TOTAL

OF.........

115,532. Almost exactly identical to Regular 5 aps deicides with LA.



Now if you use Chill level 6. (Highest level you can have and still be 5 aps). Your dps jumps to 139,000. Still less than R8 with a tome.

ffs i said demon chill... and don't forget wolf emblem it still works even with claws just have to cast it with daggers.

Olbaze - Sanctuary

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Using this build: http://pwcalc.com/c75777210094862c

With level 10 Chill on reducing aps to 4... your dps calculates out to...

A

WHOPPING

GRAND

TOTAL

OF.........

115,532. Almost exactly identical to Regular 5 aps deicides with LA.



Now if you use Chill level 6. (Highest level you can have and still be 5 aps). Your dps jumps to 139,000. Still less than R8 with a tome.

Good idea except that Demon Chill is also a 70% reduction.

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver

Traz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

ffs i said demon chill... and don't forget wolf emblem it still works even with claws just have to cast it with daggers.

144,415 with demon chill. Still less than R8. And since wolf emblem would be more effective for a dagger sin due to more frequent crits that would actually increase the gap between r8 and deicides if I added that in.

Traz - Dreamweaver

ImNotFiveAps - Dreamweaver wrote: »

144,415 with demon chill. Still less than R8. And since wolf emblem would be more effective for a dagger sin due to more frequent crits that would actually increase the gap between r8 and deicides if I added that in.

http://pwcalc.com/390f136ef099d693

That would be mine if I restated which would be dumb considering my sins build already. 8k more dps isn't worth refining all new gear and r8 weapon. This is the point I've been trying to make the whole time, especially if the sin isn't a main. The other thing to take into account is the BM already has gear probably going to be much better (on average) then if he started making a new set of gear, so you need to factor that into the calculations too.