Archers Outdated?

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I've seen a wizard with a +5-ish midnight black hit for 400k-ish on an hf.

This kind of thing can be fun.

And just how often does that happen? I can easily out damage a twin ice +12 full r9 dot wizard. You gotta stop assuming that the once in a million incident is the norm. Or are you going to tell me that we'll both get out damaged by a +5 veno?

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sage with moderate crossbow, sage skills and zooming thunder should have good burst damage.

Just because you are sage... and you use a crossbow... doesn't mean its good. Actually... it means that its totally ****. I highly doubt your damage is even 50% of my... so NO... dealing 50% of the damage as other archers should not be in any way or form be considered "good".

Lemme grab some popcorn for the show since I can see the direction this thread is taking.

First sorry for two posts, I had to respond to both equally.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

This wizard really think .. archer blow at pve? b:surrender

-->No I don't, and nothing I have said implies as much.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

First off.. I duno Who care about PVE contain in this game.. Macros are hard to set up nowadays?

-->No they are relatively easy to make, and last time I checked I was arguing ORIGINALLY that claws have no use end game except for farming, last I checked nirvana counted as farming because you get drops at the end. Okay maybe for making bh go faster, but that is about it.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

There is no way.. Wizard can out damage Archers on most of the pve instances.. even if its a "non fist" archer. That's why everyone back in the day want it info of archers and not warriors/wizards.

-->Never said I could, in fact if you read above and in my other posts, you can see that I say multiple times that aps will always out DD me. Hell I will go so far as to say even bows out DD me, which we know is true.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Only instances i had take a mage is pvp based ones. Overall sir.. I had rather take an archer over a mage on PVE. submit a ticket Nao plox.

-->Why would I submit a ticket? I'm not even arguing against you in any way once-so-ever. Everything you've said backs my own logic and is a sound argument, unlike Quilue's posts. b:victory I already recognize the fact that wizard isn't as good a DD as an archer in most instances. Also aside from the point that this isn't about me, which I will let go, If I wasn't playing a wizard and the hypothetical squad had me as a BM instead, would you submit this kind of argument though? I wonder hmmmmm. Food for thought. b:laugh

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

P.S. while you do 20 mins runs.. people make 5 runs or 6. They afk, go have food, come back, fap a little and you still on the 2nd run.

-->whats with people and not being able to read, I said, and I quote:

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

"in 5 nirvy runs which takes anywhere from 20-30mins, 2 aps classes are all that is really needed."

-->hmmm seems like we said the same thing. Oh look we did. Arguing my own argument at me, is like slapping me on the back and saying "Aoi Good job bucko".

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Unless you solo the instance.. taking more than 20 mins for a nirvana run. Its pretty terrible. I used to do 30 mins SOLO runs.

-->Who ever mentioned doing 30minute runs? Correctly me if I'm wrong, but I think my above post proves what I just said.

TL: DR Now I'm done. When you argue my own arguments back at me, it just means you haven't really read anything I've posted. So why should I bother posting anymore? It's just a huge waste of time. b:victory

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And just how often does that happen?

Often enough to screenshot?

Once in a blue moon?

It's the trying that's fun.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I can easily out damage a twin ice +12 full r9 dot wizard.

So?

First off, you do no damage here in the forums, damage only happens in game.

Second off, an archer will out damage anyone, including another archer that outdamages the first archer. We have a random damage spread, and a good crit rate, so our base damage varies over a factor of 4 (approximately -- good refines take that down slightly, weapon choice can also change that slightly), and that variation will be random.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Just because you are sage... and you use a crossbow... doesn't mean its good. Actually... it means that its totally ****. I highly doubt your damage is even 50% of my... so NO... dealing 50% of the damage as other archers should not be in any way or form be considered "good".

*rolls eyes*

You know... talking with you might actually be fun if you did not have both a severe reading comprehension problem and this single minded tendency to spend all your time on telling me how great you are.

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

-->You got me there, what I said was to troll more than anything. Everybody and their mum knows deicides doesn't take off nearly as much as STA, but the point being is that if I wanted to take a claw user, I would NOT take one who ONLY uses STA as their ONLY skill, I'd just go with a BM or a Sin because believe it or not STA really isn't some all encompassing godsend you seem to think it is. HF > STA, AMP > STA, SS > STA.

That's an opinion, you need to state less opinions and state more facts. Taking off 1/6 of the boss' HP on the first hit is not wasting damage while clawing the boss for a proc is, which is the other difference between the debuffs from STA and Deicides. An archer is no more replaceable than the BM and especially the veno because any three can be replaced by an alt slave. The BM does NOT output much more damage than the archer as shown by the two links posted by Vindis and considering the fact that BMs can no longer CC. Only class that is really much better is sin, and not rolling sin is simply a preference for some people, or perhaps because people don't want to spend another ~100 gold on sin's R8.

-->Woah slow down their guy! Didn't I say in my last post that I went WB hunting just yesterday or can you not read? Whats with you and your assumptions? Didn't I already say that if you assume you're wasting your time? You sit around and try to refute my logic with nothing, then act like you're some know it all big shot when you haven't said anything of value! Oh the irony! Attack my statements with fluff posts much?

You claim that claw users only shorten a fight by 20-30s, which is why I brought up the speculation that you've probably never done any WB or serious endgame instance. Not really fluff because I was just pointing out how ignorant you are of how much more damage output permasparkers are capable of in those posts. You admitted that you were exaggerating which if you were not, would not have led to me bringing up the argument in the first place, so now you just look like you're desperately trying to preserve your E-pride.

-->Again you prove you lack of literacy. I said MODERATELY FAST as in not as fast as possible but neither slow. Calm down you're making yourself look like an idiot. Rage much?

Still don't get the joke? It's OK. Now you're just raving.

-->This I agree with, now you're talking sense (finally, honestly can't believe it took this long). The Claw-archer could be the replacement aps in case there was none, which if you check I said long before you. b:laugh But then again I said hypothetically in a squad with aps, why would I need a claw-archer? And the simplest answer is that I don't. The squad doesn't need me and it doesn't need you. We are nothing more than over-rated DD. Sure we crank out decent damage, you with dps more than I, but at least I'm not in denial about being replaceable. Which you clearly are by your lack of ability to formulate a good argument to my responses.

-->Take a deep breath, calm down, and realize its just a game, not your life.

You seemed to have missed my argument that claw archers are the cheapest permasparkers of all the classes for a player who started out as archer. No where did I say that claw archers are irreplaceable, I just said that they're cheap. That means the extra money that would have otherwise been spent on making permasparkers of other classes can easily be used to fund a better bow, with the possibility of generating more income by farming at higher speeds offered by being able to permaspark. That is the whole point of having claws to farm in the first place. It's not about being the best in PvE.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

This argument comes from the Claw is more dps than a bow argument. If claws are more dps why not pick a class that actually has claw mastery and a useful buff or a sin (admit it WoP <<<<<<<<<<<< Bell/BP). I literally don't care about dps in the slightest, I do look at squad dynamics. Overkill isn't necessary, its why I main a sage pure bow archer rofl. I play an archer because the vast majority of them can't competently do their job in squads (Making sure no one ever gets hit except for bosses/pulls and stunlock; not just dps). Things are gonna die no matter what even in a squad with just me and a wizzy as the only "Real" DDs. I can bring an extra cleric to DD and throw TS, or a Psy could benefit from Undine. Theres really so many different ways to create alot of damage. Not just claws. Hell, in a zhen type scenario or Delta a pure bow archer has superior aoe dps. Last I checked, archers are indeed primarily wanted for aoe, much like wizards.
(inb4demonboa;purebowdemonstillhasmoredpsthanclawdemonandsageboastillhasmoresurvivablity).




I can one shot r8+5 9khp BMs with TS. I can 2 shot nearly everything else similarly geared be it HA/LA or AA. I can probably 3-4 shot an 11k hp +10 Demon archer and never get hit since I have a 2 meter deadzone advantage that so many demons neglect (Its called aim low and stepping back lol). See how it doesn't matter that my gear (r8+5) is not that good? If it lets me solo a major threat like a r9 Archer (which Ive done) or stunlock a r9 psy (which Ive also done) then it is certainly enough for me.

And I believe I stated my dislike for melee based classes previously. I play casters and I chose archer for its primary advantage, ranged dph. Idk about you but I dps as a sage with a bow quite fine, especially since no one else I've ever met in game bothers with Frenzy, people really underestimate 20 attack levels, I can't imagine that on a full r9+12 Archer lol though that does bring up something...

If anyone would be bored enough to figure it out, since its established that Demon bow dps is more due to QS/STA/Stun procs what would a r9+12 sage's dps with Nebulous Shooter look like next to a +12 Deicide archer (give them both r9 armors too idc or not if deicides still needs aps gears for 5.0; feel free to do the claw archer demon and sage if it so pleases you)? Remember not to look at just dps since people forget defenses are important as well (Archer is probably the squishiest class until overpowered gears (Wiz have SB, Clerics Plume Shell, Veno Fox form, Sins Deaden/Evasion/Focused Mind; Mystic might be squishier, still rare in my level range)


@Quilue: 3-x doesn't even need an aps user to be successfully DD'd. Example of my last faction run through 3-2: Archer, Seeker, Barb, Veno, Cleric. A Pure bow archer is capable of being the highest DD in the squad in any instance and success is still guaranteed if the squad knows what its doing. And don't even try to say something about the squad not knowing what its doing, if you can't fill a squad with 3-4 from faction or FL by 100 then you are doing it wrong. Also, perhaps Kiyoshi should comment on some of these posts. He does seem to be the one that makes the most sense here (sees the benefits of being sage and pure bow).


@Kiyoshi: Fleuri's comment about Wizards hitting 200-400k in a single cast happens pretty much every spark/HF since rank gives a relatively nice crit rate (remember low level archer crit rates? Good times). Given that archers DD more when its not a 1-2 shot kind of mob/player, but Wizzies DD hard as well and Sage Spark+CE+Sutra only helps their dps compared to other casters. Not to mention they also improve psy and archer dps with Undine. Also, nice job with the pure bow sage thing. b:victory


@Fleuri: Unrelated, but I tried out your Vicious arrow manaburn strategy in duels/TW and it pretty much shuts down non mp charmed BMs/Barbs and slows their reaction time often resulting in an easy kill (seems most people keep a mental track of how much mp they have left before they need to pot and watching a barb attempt to turtle or BM try to stunlock without mp is one of the funniest things). It's probably not practical in the long term as a strategy, but a random wood arrow on an HA thats in combat can contribute to its demise (Ex: Wood Arrow/TS Barb/BM--> Kill Robes). And its probably about the 2nd or 3rd funniest thing you can do as a sage archer aside from Stun-->Full charge Take Aim one shots and EAing sins/clawchers to the dungeon entrance in SoT. b:chuckle

Boy, you are literally ****ting out mushed contents of what is supposed to be a brain in this giant essay( I told you to be concise!).
"claws are more DPS", " I literally don't care about dps in the slightest",

One shotting 9k hp bms with TS? sounds like a sparked damage test to me. Which no, it doesn't count. And I'm sure when you say "solo a R9 archer" there's a veno harem type situation behind it...
But here I'll play along. HEY GUISE I R KILL FULL +10 FULL R9 CLERIC. Did I really? Ofc not. This guy can one shot me but we were messing around in a lame little duel, and I happened to purge his heal off 3 times in a row and string crit while he was standing there out healing my QS, and The lame little "VICTORY" popped up on my screen. Does that mean I'm gonna come here trying to prove an idiotic nonsensical point by wrongly wording this scenario to claim I soloed an R9 cleric? Ofc Not. Tl;dr, you're an idiot if you think it validates you.
And manaburn...you know if I cared, I'd tell you to make a new archer,start all over, and try to LEARN something. But since I dont, go ahead, go out into the world and deal your sage justice with the mighty hand of ultimate manaburn. Just don't try to give baby archers advice,because that's cruelty.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

It's not really worth replying to you, but the part with your quote was the only portion of that directed at you. I was getting it down to 1-2 paragraphs per person mind you, I just don't feel like double posting/getting all the quote headers. You are arguing for arguments sake and trolling for the sake of trolling. Fists are really only good for farming, people that don't farm don't give a flying **** lols. Enjoy them, I like being one of the highest dph/s archers (with a bow) in my level range. Theres literally nothing I can do with fists I can't do without aside from a higher dps. And tbh, I don't care enough lols I DD fine. As said MANY MANY times by now. Save me the time and don't reply to me again. Just reread the first paragraph of that last post and assume the response will be similar because I've been trying to say the same thing to you and you keep your lack of understanding. You're either misinterpreting or blatantly trolling and tbh, Idc which it is now. MY comments below are informative. You can comment on them in a non trolling manner if you are capable of doing so, if not please just don't even bother because you are really adding very little to this conversation.

And as for Vicious arrow, mind you I have had all my skills maxed since 92 since they don't take much coin to max and by then you CAN max them all. I got sage version trying to get Winged Blessing so I just went ahead and learned it lol (1mil coin is nothing). And yes, it is hilarious. You would know about it if you used it on someone. To see a puzzled BM wonder why they cant roar you is amazingly entertaining. By no means is it a good skill, or even a reason to go sage. Is it hilarious? Yes. Is it random and annoying? Yes.

r9 Archer soloing: r9 archer is defensive assuming Im some sort of nab (aka not moving just waiting for me to walk into range). I creep up as they stand on the perimeter (My faction attacking, we are close to their walls and this particular archer is guarding their right side I am in the lead for the right push). Aim Low, chi pot Sage spark frenzy stun TS/LS normals they die. Thats it really, I don't get hit back. Is that basically the same as a sin stealth gank? Yes. Is it good times? Yes it is. Now don't even start trying to say a r8+5 can't DD enough when 3 sparked to kill an uncharmed r9+5. (Idk about your server but afew weeks ago charms were up to 6.5mil and no one had charms lols), tbh its just irrelevant, I specifically mentioned that I am indeed capable of killing a r9 because I do DD very hard and its not like I can't 1-2 shot the average player on my server.

@Quilue: I agree claws are useful for farming. That is about all I would use them for if I had any good reason or desire to farm, but I do not and I doubt I ever will. Glad we finally agree on something.

A. you would not admit to me the efficiency of 5 aps archer builds for farming. But now you have to someone else so I'll take that as a win.
B. Also,You apparently think you are a mage. Your entire argument seems to revolve around the assumption that you will outgear everyone so therefore you need sage mastery to really seal the deal on that one shot. LOL at 3 spark soloing a +5 R9 archer. Archer was afk? or stupid? No AD or WoG, pots on CD? At this point, all I ask is for you to cease this asshattery.
And your whole first paragraph is dedicated to QQ Y U SO MEAN, so maybe you do find some value in responding to me big boy, even if it is to try to make yourself look like you're above me somehow.

Anfisa - Lost City wrote: »

Uncharmed r9? Is Dreamweaver really that poor? Maybe that's why dreamweaver champs wiped on harpy...

Oh snap, you done said it!

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I literally don't care about dps in the slightest, I do look at squad dynamics. Overkill isn't necessary, its why I main a sage pure bow archer rofl.

LOL... this coming from an level 100 archer. I am a better sage pure dex bow only archer... and I am here to tell you that you are an COMPLETE idiot. The only reason that I can afford to not care about aps is:

1. I don't need to farm ever to fund my gears.
2. I have a demon sin.
3. I have an +12 r9 bow.

You on the other hand need every bit of damage that you can get.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I can one shot r8+5 9khp BMs with TS. I can 2 shot nearly everything else similarly geared be it HA/LA or AA. I can probably 3-4 shot an 11k hp +10 Demon archer and never get hit since I have a 2 meter deadzone advantage that so many demons neglect (Its called aim low and stepping back lol). See how it doesn't matter that my gear (r8+5) is not that good? If it lets me solo a major threat like a r9 Archer (which Ive done) or stunlock a r9 psy (which Ive also done) then it is certainly enough for me.

LOL.

Your +5 r8 bow barely hit 14k damage on the high end factoring your blessing. My +12 r9 with its attack levels is going to give me over 45k high end p.atk. And even then... I CAN NOT deal 9k on a BM. So maybe you should mention that your bm is debuffed, veno amp, genie amp, curse, sharp, and armor broken.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If anyone would be bored enough to figure it out, since its established that Demon bow dps is more due to QS/STA/Stun procs what would a r9+12 sage's dps with Nebulous Shooter look like next to a +12 Deicide archer (give them both r9 armors too idc or not if deicides still needs aps gears for 5.0; feel free to do the claw archer demon and sage if it so pleases you)?

Unlike you and certain other village idiots... I don't completely depend on math. I am a sage archer with +12 r9. And i can tell you from FIRST hand experience that a 5aps archer DOES NOT need +12 to out damage me.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

3-x doesn't even need an aps user to be successfully DD'd. Example of my last faction run through 3-2: Archer, Seeker, Barb, Veno, Cleric. A Pure bow archer is capable of being the highest DD in the squad in any instance and success is still guaranteed if the squad knows what its doing.

So what... are you trying to tell us that you are king among mice? If i am in any squad for anything... and I am the highest dd. There is something seriously wrong with the squad (aka random squad).

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Kiyoshi: Fleuri's comment about Wizards hitting 200-400k in a single cast happens pretty much every spark/HF since rank gives a relatively nice crit rate (remember low level archer crit rates? Good times). Given that archers DD more when its not a 1-2 shot kind of mob/player, but Wizzies DD hard as well and Sage Spark+CE+Sutra only helps their dps compared to other casters. Not to mention they also improve psy and archer dps with Undine. Also, nice job with the pure bow sage thing. b:victory

LOL... a +5 wiz hit 200k every hf... yea that'll be the day. Come to think of it... it seems like all the r9 killers and 6 digit hitters are all +5. Maybe +5 is the new +12... welcome to the slums.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@Fleuri: Unrelated, but I tried out your Vicious arrow manaburn strategy in duels/TW and it pretty much shuts down non mp charmed BMs/Barbs and slows their reaction time often resulting in an easy kill (seems most people keep a mental track of how much mp they have left before they need to pot and watching a barb attempt to turtle or BM try to stunlock without mp is one of the funniest things). It's probably not practical in the long term as a strategy, but a random wood arrow on an HA thats in combat can contribute to its demise (Ex: Wood Arrow/TS Barb/BM--> Kill Robes). And its probably about the 2nd or 3rd funniest thing you can do as a sage archer aside from Stun-->Full charge Take Aim one shots and EAing sins/clawchers to the dungeon entrance in SoT. b:chuckle

What kind of back wood red neck country pvp are you part of? first mana drain... now wood arrow. Here in the developed world... bms are charmed... and 40k hp barb can afk tank my triple spark metal chain.

Anfisa - Lost City wrote: »

Oh god, now I remember the horrors of that video. Thinking blood vow's dot was from some random cleric. b:irritated

LMAO and to think that person is on DW rankings...

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

LOL... a +5 wiz hit 200k every hf... yea that'll be the day. Come to think of it... it seems like all the r9 killers and 6 digit hitters are all +5. Maybe +5 is the new +12... welcome to the slums.

I loled.. And 3 spark killing someone charmless.. Doesn't prove your god like... It just proves the other guy.. didnt give a dam about your TW. lol


P.s. They should merge servers.. so at least all this "talk" no action... could go somewhere

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

LOL... this coming from an level 100 archer. I am a better sage pure dex bow only archer... and I am here to tell you that you are an COMPLETE idiot. The only reason that I can afford to not care about aps is:

1. I don't need to farm ever to fund my gears.
2. I have a demon sin.
3. I have an +12 r9 bow.

You on the other hand need every bit of damage that you can get.

1. I also don't need to farm and don't care to. I've been 100 less than a month mind you.
2. Nice, I knew sins were better for farming. I agree.
3. I might have r9 eventually if I plan to aim for it. We will see if I need to since tbh, most of DW I run across (even the *TOP* factions hold many Archers/Sins/BMs/etc with +10 weps and +2/3 armors and there are plenty of people who don't even have r8)

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

LOL.

Your +5 r8 bow barely hit 14k damage on the high end factoring your blessing. My +12 r9 with its attack levels is going to give me over 45k high end p.atk. And even then... I CAN NOT deal 9k on a BM. So maybe you should mention that your bm is debuffed, veno amp, genie amp, curse, sharp, and armor broken.

One shotting the BM: Stun, TS, his charm ticked LS crit for his entire hp. I get blue spam that I one shot him for more than his max hp. Perhaps my consideration of more than one's max hp and one shot are different since I sort of do factor in that people will crab/charm tick their way back to full hp. Perhaps the BM was phys marrowed? tbh I didn't really check, nor do I care. You can't do 9k on a r8+5 BM? DW economy likely sharded flawless cits? TBH you would be lucky if said BM even had +5 refines or full r8, I just said he had 9k hp and thats what I was told. I'm pretty sure you should be able to.

And yes, I know fists/claws/aps will out DD anything else (as mentioned in previous posts, but dps is really not my personal concern in the slightest), but its not relevant in non-farming pvp (you should have an entire faction that regularly murders WBs daily with or without your help).

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

LOL... a +7 wiz hit 200k every hf... yea that'll be the day. Come to think of it... it seems like all the r9 killers and 6 digit hitters are all +5. Maybe +5 is the new +12... welcome to the slums.

Also, bright orange. Because this was the only part of all of the above directed toward you and it didn't particularly require a response. I've read many a wall by yourself, and I already know of your gear and your sage pure bow-ness etc etc. One should know I lurked these forums for 2 years before bothering to post in favor of sage on the Sage vs. Demon thread. Illyana was the archer that initially made me want to go sage, and I do a pretty good job in TW which was my initial goal(armor/refines still needs work, but it will come with time). My point was a pure bow archer can do some DD. And another point was one does not need to farm. Two points you proved for me above. 2 points implied by Quilue before my compliment (on being pure bow and sage) tyvm.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What kind of back wood red neck country pvp are you part of? first mana drain... now wood arrow. Here in the developed world... bms are charmed... and 40k hp barb can afk tank my triple spark metal chain.

That was a TW reference and a playful jab towards Fleuri, though srsly, and I mean srsly. Manaburn is hilarious. Practical? Not really. Hilarious? Sure. Also Vicious Arrow does wood damage, its the same skill(manaburn).

And yes, we has well geared toons on DW. Does that mean I fought them in that particular TW? Does that mean everyone you face will be full r9 or OP? No. If I'm not fighting Regen or EQ, I'm likely facing only a handful of r9 and my faction(s) I've TW'd with have a fair share of their own OP toons. About 2-3 weeks ago people really weren't charmed because (for some odd reason charms were overpriced; one would possess logic by not purchasing them for 2x the normal price; I had one, but doesn't mean everyone did; got mine before the price hike).

Oh and for any that care (I had said it previously) I did main a Wizzy before TB expansion on HT. So perhaps I do think I'm a mage ^_^. My archer was built to be sage to maximize synergy with my brother's wizard (better than our old Cleric/Wizard synergy). But really, it's not about why I'm sage. It was about how no one needs to farm. Some people like to. But really, and I mean really, if you don't want to farm you don't have to and you can get by just fine.

Quilue, if you could tell me the secret to revoking the Kiyoshi summoning ritual that would be great ty. He seems to have somehow construed a compliment as an attempt at an argument(?)

Kerona - Sanctuary wrote: »

I really don't get your obsession with +5 btw >.>

I think its because examples are easy to find. And, its a number that my tiny mind can remember easily -- but for all I know that wizard could have been +3 back then.

How do we stretch this to 29 pages tho?
I've got it! Vindis come fill 29 pages of over-worded unfounded nonsense, get on it!

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I think its because examples are easy to find. And, its a number that my tiny mind can remember easily -- but for all I know that wizard could have been +3 back then.

For 29!