Archers Outdated?
Comments
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One step closer to it!
And why do we constantly hear about +5/manaburn nowadays in the archer forums anyway?0 -
One step closer to it!
And why do we constantly hear about +5/manaburn nowadays in the archer forums anyway?
You forgot to add veno harems.Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
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"Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray0 -
We like veno harems! I blame the tails! b:surrender0
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You know I got started drawing a picture of a veno harem when i was bored but never got to finishing it. And dammit wheres Vindis and his essays when you need them?0
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You should finish it and become like Q but with pictures! b:chuckle0
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I think everyone should draw a pic of veno harem, and then I wont feel so self cauntious about mine b:shy0
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I don't think any of the other veno harem pics that may have been made could be posted here anyways. b:chuckle0
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I like the top plan better.0
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Why page 29?0
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Doesn't matter as long as we get it there! b:laugh0
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Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray0 -
Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »3. I might have r9 eventually if I plan to aim for it. We will see if I need to since tbh, most of DW I run across (even the *TOP* factions hold many Archers/Sins/BMs/etc with +10 weps and +2/3 armors and there are plenty of people who don't even have r8)
I can't name a single archer in my guild without r9 weapon... and over half of them are full r9s. And the other contender for top guild on HT has about 5-6 full +12 weapon and +10 or above armor r9 archers. You are just making dreamweaver look like a bunch of kids in a school yard fight.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
See:Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »I can't name a single archer in my guild without r9 weapon... and over half of them are full r9s. And the other contender for top guild on HT has about 5-6 full +12 weapon and +10 or above armor r9 archers. You are just making dreamweaver look like a bunch of kids in a school yard fight.
b:surrenderDecus - Dreamweaver wrote: »It's cause people on Dreamweaver are effing ****...0 -
Good enough reason for me!Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »Why not?
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b:thanks For asty's cup size![SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0
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Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »Taking off 1/6 of the boss' HP on the first hit is not wasting damage while clawing the boss for a proc is, which is the other difference between the debuffs from STA and Deicides.
-->Yes I get the difference between waiting on procs, but with 5 attacks a second its going to proc more often than not, in a manner of speaking. Still that doesn't necessarily negate the usefulness of -1/6th boss hp. However in defense of my statement a well timed 3spark hf from all squad members can take of 1/3rd-1/2+ boss hp. Then again maybe its less since I always make sure to squad with an archer.Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »An archer is no more replaceable than the BM and especially the veno because any three can be replaced by an alt slave. The BM does NOT output much more damage than the archer as shown by the two links posted by Vindis and considering the fact that BMs can no longer CC. Only class that is really much better is sin
-->I apologize if I misrepresented my arguments, the point wasn't whether or not you are replaceable, which I admit it seems to be what I'm saying. It was to try and get people to tell me what an archer can bring to the table. Because believe it or not when I hear "hax aps with claws and STA" I think to myself that maybe archers are more useless than I originally thought, because every other class has around 20+ skills.Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »not rolling sin is simply a preference for some people, or perhaps because people don't want to spend another ~100 gold on sin's R8.
-->Personally I'd never roll a sin, farming is easy enough as is, but ijs it sure as hell takes awhile as a wizard.Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »You claim that claw users only shorten a fight by 20-30s, which is why I brought up the speculation that you've probably never done any WB or serious endgame instance. Not really fluff because I was just pointing out how ignorant you are of how much more damage output permasparkers are capable of in those posts. You admitted that you were exaggerating which if you were not, would not have led to me bringing up the argument in the first place, so now you just look like you're desperately trying to preserve your E-pride.
-->I don't have pride. Lust maybe (have you seen the size of some of the pixels on the girls in this game? b:chuckle ), but pride over a discussion doesn't make any sense. To me you come off as being insulted that I'd even suggest that maybe, just maybe archers don't have to use bows for only STA and reg attacks or that claw-archers aren't really that great if they are mainly going to use claws. I'd say I'd apologize, but you called me a *****. So I wont.Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »You seemed to have missed my argument that claw archers are the cheapest permasparkers of all the classes for a player who started out as archer. No where did I say that claw archers are irreplaceable, I just said that they're cheap. That means the extra money that would have otherwise been spent on making permasparkers of other classes can easily be used to fund a better bow, with the possibility of generating more income by farming at higher speeds offered by being able to permaspark. That is the whole point of having claws to farm in the first place. It's not about being the best in PvE.
-->I'd like to see some quotes of this post or at least redirect me to the page on which you said these things so I can read them.
-->I agree claw-archer is the cheapest perma-spark to acquire, just because good light armor gets so much -int adds on it. But that doesn't make it the most cost-effective.Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »-- Appendix A: Sources of Speed Increase --
Sources of "Interval Between Hits -X seconds"
The following is a partial list of equipment pieces can increase your attack speed:
- Certain legendary weapons. See "The Chart" below for a list.
- Rank Chest Armors for Archers at level 60 and higher. This includes:
____- ☆Armor of the Assassin (level 60)
____- ☆Avenger's Armor (level 90)
____- ☆Armor of the Demonhunter (level 100)
- Certain legendary wrist bracers. This includes (but may not be limited to):
____- ☆Bracers of Blood Moon (level 60)
____- ☆Spirit Eater's Bracer (level 80)
____- ☆General's Bracers (level 90)
____- ☆Ashura's Bracers (level 99).
- The cape ☆Energetic Robe: Lunar Glade (level 90).
- The tome Love: Up and Down (any level).
- Acquiring two items from the TT99 Light Armor set gives an interval reduction of 0.05. Link.
- Acquiring two items from the TT99 Heavy Armor set gives an interval reduction of 0.05. Link.
- The "Interval Between Hits -X seconds" property can be randomly found on weapons above a certain Grade / Level requirement.
- The "Interval Between Hits -X seconds" property can be randomly found on wrist bracers above a certain Grade / Level requirement.
-->Another thing I don't understand is why use claws to fund a bow, when you can just skip deicides and go straight bow? Isn't that a little redundant? I mean it makes sense if you're farming every single piece of gear you own, but with rank gear being as easy and cheap as it is nowadays, there really is no need to farm for nirvy gear. Most people just go straight rank 9 from rank 8. Imo it should save coin in the long run, but correct me if I'm wrong.Our time is coming, we cannot be stopped, soon the time of the wizard will be upon us and all shall know and fear us. we are a magical army of wizardry and death, cold and emotionless, we carry out our tasks without a conscience.
~Fiorrello_ - Raging Tide
^Wow he has no life.
~Menarin - Dreamweaver0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »I can't name a single archer in my guild without r9 weapon... and over half of them are full r9s. And the other contender for top guild on HT has about 5-6 full +12 weapon and +10 or above armor r9 archers. You are just making dreamweaver look like a bunch of kids in a school yard fight.
-->That's because there are two vying "groups of people" on DW; those against cash-shopping, and those who cash-shop and just don't give a ****, namely the faction Intandem which is mostly full of ***-*****. Unfortunately on our server acquiring rank 8 is considered "cash-shopping" by the hyper-nubs. Ironic in a way since they tend to have love up and down tomes and the good lunar glade -int robes, while I'm still rocking Mediations Flame and Elite Leather. b:beatenup
-->Then again I always laugh when I enter TW with my crappy +7 rank 8 magic sword and I fight against 30 people who have a +3 Deicides with 1 immac garnet and maybe 3 rank 9's +12'ed. So no complaints from me. Easy kills are easy b:victoryOur time is coming, we cannot be stopped, soon the time of the wizard will be upon us and all shall know and fear us. we are a magical army of wizardry and death, cold and emotionless, we carry out our tasks without a conscience.
~Fiorrello_ - Raging Tide
^Wow he has no life.
~Menarin - Dreamweaver0 -
That would be on page 5, comparing an archer to a BM.
60m or so spent on a set of refined claws is nothing in the long run when you can farm events and instances with them for a long time to come. It's also relatively nothing when endgame gear costs a few thousand gold.
Tigers, CoA, both give good reward to those with high damage output, they also come weekly and take less than 1/2 an hour each. The competition for Tigers is divided among the classes so a robe class would be fine having a good wep and maybe some pots, but most, if not all, of the top archers have claws. There is always Nirvana, TT, and WB. It's just about using the claws enough that it pays for itself. If you come to regret it later or have finished your gear, -int claws are easy to resell as well.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »-->Yes I get the difference between waiting on procs, but with 5 attacks a second its going to proc more often than not, in a manner of speaking. Still that doesn't necessarily negate the usefulness of -1/6th boss hp. However in defense of my statement a well timed 3spark hf from all squad members can take of 1/3rd-1/2+ boss hp. Then again maybe its less since I always make sure to squad with an archer.
I do not know if I am repeating things that you already understand, but:
A demon archer can reduce some boss's max health by almost 1/6 before anyone else does damage.
A sage archer can reduce some boss's max health by 1/5 before anyone else does damage.
A deicides user can reduce some boss's max health by 1/10 after an *average* delay of approximately 3 seconds, after reaching the boss.
So that delay increases in importance when you have lots of high damage dealers in your squad.
Then again, some bosses ignore this debuff.
Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »-->I apologize if I misrepresented my arguments, the point wasn't whether or not you are replaceable, which I admit it seems to be what I'm saying. It was to try and get people to tell me what an archer can bring to the table. Because believe it or not when I hear "hax aps with claws and STA" I think to myself that maybe archers are more useless than I originally thought, because every other class has around 20+ skills.
Archers are good for generating secondary aggro. They can pull in bosses or other monsters from further away than anyone else (and with low lag). (But you need a coordinated squad to take advantage of this, and this can sometimes be not so useful, like when you need to travel in the direction of the monsters.)
Archers have decent control skills -- they are cannot aoe stun like humans, nor permastun like blademasters, but their stun requires no chi and every archer control skill has better range than the control skills of any other class. (But making good use of these requires an alert archer and also requires you understand your squad mate intentions.) Archers are probably the best class for picking up secondary adds, because of their range and because of their relatively fast ranged skills.
Sage archers can turn themselves into mini-tanks in a pve emergency (2 sparks and they
increase their survivability by 50% while building moderately decent aggro), which can be good in marginal situations.
Archers can increase the damage output from clerics.
Archers can make luring safer for venos.
Archers probably have other advantages. I should really play one to discover what they might be?0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »I do not know if I am repeating things that you already understand, but:
A demon archer can reduce some boss's max health by almost 1/6 before anyone else does damage.
A sage archer can reduce some boss's max health by 1/5 before anyone else does damage.
A deicides user can reduce some boss's max health by 1/10 after an *average* delay of approximately 3 seconds, after reaching the boss.
So that delay increases in importance when you have lots of high damage dealers in your squad.
Then again, some bosses ignore this debuff.
Archers are good for generating secondary aggro. They can pull in bosses or other monsters from further away than anyone else (and with low lag). (But you need a coordinated squad to take advantage of this, and this can sometimes be not so useful, like when you need to travel in the direction of the monsters.)
Archers have decent control skills -- they are cannot aoe stun like humans, nor permastun like blademasters, but their stun requires no chi and every archer control skill has better range than the control skills of any other class. (But making good use of these requires an alert archer and also requires you understand your squad mate intentions.) Archers are probably the best class for picking up secondary adds, because of their range and because of their relatively fast ranged skills.
Sage archers can turn themselves into mini-tanks in a pve emergency (2 sparks and they
increase their survivability by 50% while building moderately decent aggro), which can be good in marginal situations.
Archers can increase the damage output from clerics.
Archers can make luring safer for venos.
Archers probably have other advantages. I should really play one to discover what they might be?
^^ I am Menarin's brother, so he generally knows exactly how useful a well played sage archer is in squad. He is just making the argument that HF&Bell > STA&WoP. And SS&BP > STA&WoP in a squad dynamics sort of way. . Sure EP is sort of a substitute for SS, but thats neither here nor there.
You do make very solid points. Venos love me for catching pulls. Clerics love me (I
TS; It's hilarious to make the cleric steal aggro). Wizzies/Psys love me for stunlock. And I agree with basically everything you said in the above post. Concise. Nice Job b:victory
Ummmm...I'm pretty sure I was going to comment about something else, but I can't really think of anything. Someone reboot the topic. I expect 15 pages by tomorrow Archer forums. Keep up the good work.Ring Engraving/Amulet Carving Guide - pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1174451
Retired from PWI.
b:bye0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »That would be on page 5, comparing an archer to a BM.
60m or so spent on a set of refined claws is nothing in the long run when you can farm events and instances with them for a long time to come. It's also relatively nothing when endgame gear costs a few thousand gold.
-->Okay well I know the whole farming with claws is faster argument already which makes sense in defense of claws, even I recognize the usefulness there. But what end game gear are you referring too? I assume once you complete getting you -int gear in order to "cap out", you've just about acquired most of your ring/cape/belt/neck already. Also Rank 8 is ridiculously easy to get and while its not the best per say for end game, it is a viable options for those not interested in acquiring rank 9/nirvy. (whomever those people may be b:sweatQuilue - Sanctuary wrote: »Tigers, CoA, both give good reward to those with high damage output, they also come weekly and take less than 1/2 an hour each. The competition for Tigers is divided among the classes so a robe class would be fine having a good wep and maybe some pots, but most, if not all, of the top archers have claws. There is always Nirvana, TT, and WB. It's just about using the claws enough that it pays for itself. If you come to regret it later or have finished your gear, -int claws are easy to resell as well.
-->I do the events sometimes and I find that its actually best to zhen. A well geared wizard in perma DB and an archer (for pulling) can grab 3rd place for both if they start early enough in a good spot during the event. Then again I've seen a single r9 +12 bm score 1st place by 60k points. b:cry
-->And I admit claws do pay for themselves if farming is your thing (On DW server you get called fail for not using fist/claw 24/7 and I'm a wizard go figure b:chuckle ). I also see a lot of +10 1 socket Deicides selling for 40mil on my server. (which I find ridiculous).Our time is coming, we cannot be stopped, soon the time of the wizard will be upon us and all shall know and fear us. we are a magical army of wizardry and death, cold and emotionless, we carry out our tasks without a conscience.
~Fiorrello_ - Raging Tide
^Wow he has no life.
~Menarin - Dreamweaver0 -
Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »Archers have decent control skills -- they are cannot aoe stun like humans
What about that Archer genie stun? I have a goldfish brain so not sure if it is front aoe only or its range limitation.PWI b:bye0 -
Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »-->Then again I always laugh when I enter TW with my crappy +7 rank 8 magic sword and I fight against 30 people who have a +3 Deicides with 1 immac garnet and maybe 3 rank 9's +12'ed. So no complaints from me. Easy kills are easy b:victory
Congratulations... you are now king among the dreamweaver mice. Unfortunately... here in HT... where people actually have money to spend. I tend (more often then not) to be fighting people with +10 or above armor and full jade/dots... on top of full r9.1. If I kill you; do something about it yourself, don't go complaining to my wife.
2. If you have less kill counts then me, don't expect me to take pk advice from you.
3. If you are hiding behind an alt, don't expect me to acknowledge your existence.
Tokichiro - Heavy Armor Fish / Kiyoshi - Dual Blade Elf0 -
StacysMum - Dreamweaver wrote: »What about that Archer genie stun? I have a goldfish brain so not sure if it is front aoe only or its range limitation.
Stunning Blast is actually a freeze and (correct me if I'm wrong) it is a 7 second freeze. It also is melee range only (5 metres). It isn't bad by any means, but it maintains it's primary uses against a BM/Barb and that's about it.
An archer could theoretically stunlock a melee class for...about 15~ seconds ( subtracted 3 seconds for lag and chantime) factoring in lag and chantime. That's if the opponent is dumb enough to NOT use an antistun to block the stun after they get froze the first time ofc.Ring Engraving/Amulet Carving Guide - pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1174451
Retired from PWI.
b:bye0 -
Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »Congratulations... you are now king among the dreamweaver mice. Unfortunately... here in HT... where people actually have money to spend. I tend (more often then not) to be fighting people with +10 or above armor and full jade/dots... on top of full r9.
Perhaps you should move to DW, so you can buy yourself an ego boost. Then perhaps you would no longer feel the need to regale us all with your stories. Someday, you'll have to face the fact that this isnt a thread about your gear, or any skill you may believe you have.
Arguments like this one are probably appreciated in th CS huddle, though, where i hear peopel get together to compare epeen sizes. /rant
On topic: Archers are not outdated, i look sexy playing one. Also, i somehow apreciate a reasonable level of dificulty in pvp (wich is why i dont play a sin).0 -
Biggest problem for sins in TW: Bramble.
Nothing's more fun than watching a sin pop up in the middle of a group and AoE... and then die from the reflected damage. If bramble didn't work in TW, sins would be a lot more capable in terms of how much they can kill before focus fire murders them/waiting for stealth cooldowns.
Archers, on the other hand... well.... when was the last time bramble reflected arrow damage
back at you? b:laugh
All i can say is.. I fully agree0 -
brisingraz wrote: »All i can say is.. I fully agree
I am fairly certain this constitutes a necro. Plus, no real need to bring up this thread anyway :<Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray0 -
Decus - Dreamweaver wrote: »I am fairly certain this constitutes a necro. Plus, no real need to bring up this thread anyway :<
Post count, my friend.0 -
Proving that not only archers do math since 2009. b:victory
Current math challenge: pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1029711&page=45
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"Any skills that can be used to kill you will interrupt BB when successful." -truekossy | "...Sage archers are kind of like Mac owners. They are proud of the weirdest and most unnecessary things." -Aesthor | "We ALL know Jesus doesn't play PWI. He may have suffered a lot for humanity, but he'd NEVER punish himself this way." -Abstractive | "I approve of bananas." -SashaGray0
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