Archers Outdated?

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demons can have better bursts, but they are laggy bursts. Sages have higher dps for the early stages of combat.

Meanwhile, vit build sacrifices both crit and damage. So I think your criticisms should be directed against vit builds.

I didn't even consider vit build, would be like considering HA cleric in cleric discussion.

But anyway, I stand by my statement. Demon = more killing power with your bow/a bit more versatility with your farming gear.

And kerona don't forget veno harems lol

DaKillanator - Raging Tide wrote: »

Even better factions don't take their wizards on Nirv runs and simply gear them. There's no good reason to bring a non aps class because it's only slowing everybody down.

-->well the first good reason is that when you are playing for fun doing nirvi even without phys DD is something different + it doesnt slow down a lot when the squad consists only of psy wiz because then undine really pushes the dmg

I don't even...why would a sin refine a bow to +12? And of course it would hurt at +12, everything does. A bm using a +12 bow could do some damage...

-->why not? if money is no issue why not take a +10-+12 bow as sideweapon. I have seen a lot of sins with better bows than archers.

wtf kinda combo is that? You sleep them so you can knock them back out of sleep and give them a chance to do something? Pro-tip: use FoW, undine, maybe a gush if you're feeling daring, sleep, ulti.
And winged shell is a non factor in endgame pvp. A regular class can pop it with a few hits, a dph class like ours can easily destroy it in one.

-->A "Pro" comment to your tip: using sleep first because it is instant. Especially when the distance between you and your target is larger FoW takes some time to reach the enemy and cause the seal effect (this problem gets smaller with ~-25%chan+) then using undine which interrupts the seal followed by fow because most of your attackers will try to approach you which lowers the distance and thereby also the time that FoW needs to "fly" to the target. This limits the chance of getting stunned. you could also shrink to your target if it is an archer during sleep before you undine and fow to get into the 50% dmg reduction range because during sleep the archer can not move away.

-->Of course winged shell can be destroyed with 1 hit but the thing is it is really hard to 1 shot an archer with winged shell on because the dmg you have to deal with 1 hit will be a lot higher ~1-1.250k pvp dmg more. And I just named wing shell as example of skills an archer could use to prevent a 1 shot by an arcane class. I didnt say that winged shell will save the archer in the end.


So I guess you never upgraded your skills to sage/demon? Or maybe mine are just special, because my range is 30m

-->nope mine are all sage except DB and Blade Tempest. I just wasnt ingame and accidently took the lvl 10 values but nevertheless the there is still a small advantage of the archer

greetz harm0wnie

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Fists on an archer doesnt make much logical sense in the fact that if you were so concerned with trying to cut costs you would have just rerolled a sin anyways. Sins can use half of your gear via account stash and are the highest dps class and best for farming. Its not like bows dont DD hard. They were used before the aps craze if Im not mistaken. DPS really matters very little end game unless you are so concerned with farming (I would rather farm IRL tyvm ) If DPS is so important roll a fish or make an LA BM that wears your archer gear as a farming alt.

Cutting costs isnt really justified by getting 2 sets of gear. Str rings/LG cape or I could just save 30mil on the LG cape and get Cloudcharger instead and aim towards a P def neck. You know, things that are actually useful in pvp. Or I could put on some +dex/+p atk rings and get even more dph (I prefer accuracy rings). PvE is still so easy Im not sure why people try 5.0 on an archer. Sure its cheaper than BM. Sure its faster than a bow (marginally and for bosses only; the extra aps above my 2.5 doesn't justify my loss in bow damage or the expenses I would pay, perhaps in the long run, but I'm satisfied as is).

Also, demons really tend to devalue Sage spark. 25% reduction to damage taken and extra chi gaining skills arent meant to be taken lightly(I will have cloud eruption soon too mind you). Have you tanked every boss from 89 down? Mostly because nothing else keeps aggro from you. This includes Pole/Nob and some SoT bosses. Also Sage BoA is pretty nice for solo farming too (Yes, I have it).

Nay, never did I dismiss "so much crit/burst damage potential". I've always said go Demon for dps, but a sage has its benefits too. Its undeniable that QS/STA/Stun are great demon. However, if you fail to see the benefit of a longer stun or 600+ more p atk (which becomes more if Im pure and the Demon is fist build) per arrow then you do not realize that can mean the difference between 1-2 shotting a caster or having them hit back and kill you. 33% crit rate is still pretty nice ijs.

And correct me if Im wrong but a sage builds for defense whereas a demon builds for dps. Im afraid (at least in my view) full garnets (cant afford JoSD/Vit stones atm), a phys cube neck, Wings of Cloudcharger and a warsong ele belt outweigh any other possible ornament combination you could show me bar r9 with similar shards/neck/cape. Refines give enough hp.

And if you truly don't believe Sage archers can DD well, I steal aggro from many things without trying. Demon sparked 2.86 BMs, Barbs, r9+12 Wizards, Hercs and anything else that isnt 3.33 or higher. Under the right conditions Ive hit for a surplus of 145k. I even take from similarly geared sins half the time. Would I want the aps I get from demon spark? Probably not no because I would die much more often. The one time I would value fists for an archer would be to tank melee range bosses so I don't do half damage and the other DDs can go all out, but even then I would rather use my barb or have someone else tank it. Sage and Demon is a different mindset and not really relevant in this thread. Regardless, Demon has more dps (on every class) and sage is more defensive/chi oriented.

Holy god what an essay. First,go pay for G13/15 dagger and then tell me that "roll a fish" bs. May be easy for you if you like to charge/merch but for those of us unsuited to that, 5 aps archer is a viable and efficient alternative. No many of us don't want to level up/skill up/gear up a whole other class just to farm. And frankly, statements like "roll this or gtfo" are anti logical. Please, find a real argument... Which you wont, because this "ARCHER USE BOW ONLY" thing is purely one's own principle, at least admit that much.

and idk your server but last I checked lg cape/cloudcharger cost about same, actually cloudcharger a bit more expensive mostly.

On sage: It's not that an extra second on stun isn't nice (and btw its totally not always 600+ more p attack), it's just that 10% extra crit rate is so much nicer. Your argument here makes it sound like you rely on fighting only undergeared ppl. Both Demons and Sages can build for defense. Also, stealing aggro, zzZZzzzz worst way to back up an argument by bringing up accounts of you stealing from randoms who happened to be sins/ bms

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Cloudcharger/LG cape information comes from a friend that purchased both for his BM. Cloucharger 45mil. LG Cape 70mil. Given this was abit ago, but still, LG cape should cost more because it has -int and people love them some -int (ask yourself, for you are pro aps).

Also, if I was gonna spend the coin for a deicide, I would most definitely put it on a BM. Fist mastery+Bell = Winning at solo grinding compared to an archer. As an archer I do want to do the most damage I possible can with a bow, else I wouldve rolled something else.

My main arguement against going full aps on an archer is:

1) High pop of BMs/Sins means alot of melee based DDs that hit harder than you and dps harder than you.

2) Bow kills everything before a melee can hit it. Why bother wasting coin on aps I won't ever use but for a boss? My archer DDs hard enough as is with a bow. Last I checked dps order for phys classes was: Sin, BM, Archer. A Bow will out dps fists for quite a while in that first spark. And its not like afk auto attacking is much different with fists vs a bow. Bow just means I don't need to spend 70mil+ on an LG cape and switch my ornas/tome all the time. Sounds good to me tbh. I swear lol, and people argue that Sage is more expensive than demon...I don't ever want to worry about how much the HA99 ornas cost. The adds aren't even good enough for me to consider >.>

And my logic on the bow thing is sound. A Sage with a bow WILL get aggro from 2.86 BMs (likely a demon too due to demon spark). Crit rate of a 1/3 shots > 2.86. It will happen. 2.86 isn't that much. Crit rate + higher spikes and especially since I am a DPH build sage (EP/Frenzy every spark unless I'm tanking) means I DD hard. Not to mention I am ALWAYS in squad with my wizard brother. Wizard undine strike lowers fire/water/earth resistances. Isnt it nice that I deal both fire and water (frostblade) with my normals? Sage Frost arrow crits for well over 50k with undine. Also, I checked for you. If I were demon and (based on a pool of my faction and my friendslist) Demon with 117 base str for Warsoul of Earth/gear for deicides I would have about 470 more p atk if sage (pwcalc ftw). I can only imagine that margin growing if I restat my extra strength and got higher refines/better shards/r9. Sure it isn't much, but still every little bit helps, thats why archer is THE highest dps ranged DD. Not 3rd best melee dps class...b:chuckle

Yes, fists will DD slightly more on bosses, which is the only useful thing to use fists on. Mobs die before they enter melee range. I pvp with my bow, can't freeze/stunlock someone for 15-16 seconds with fists. Keep in mind I already said that. Pretty much the only fists I would aim for are Gorenox Vanity because we can't get BP like sins/BMs. Yet another reason to roll a sin/bm for farming. More soloing capabilities due to BP. And if I ever did invest in a pair of fists, I would use them only for TANKING melee bosses if no bm/sin was available. 2mil/50mirages/50chips/8subs from BH100 means I make alot of profit doing very little. Use subs to solo TT for mats to sell. Use chips to make molds to craft and sell. Use mirages to refine or to sell (or for Warsong). 2mil is straight up coin lols. In fact my archer can just do the above while my barb continues his way to 100. I honestly don't see the point in doing Nirvy unless its 2x since 3-4 runs averages my squad of 6 about 600-800k each which could have been made in 2 solo TTs.

Another point, why is a level 98 demon archer attempting to lecture me on aps? You don't even have TT99 yet. What are you? 1.33? 1.43? You have no aps. Unless you were stupid enough to waste coin on TT90 gold or (god forbid) TT80gold. Keep in mind I only have r8/99+4/6 having only been 100 less than a month, so I am not well geared myself, but to be lectured on aps by someone who doesn't have it yet (or even have my aps) is well, a bit redundant. You got .87 with a bow yet? You rocking 4.2k p def unbuffed? I have my doubts. GL tanking stuff b:bye

I am commenting on my experience being level 100 pure dex sage with minimum +aps solely from my r8/TT99. I don't need aps to be in squads. I have to tank nearly everything. I form everything. I bring whatever classes I want to bring to Nirvy/FC/BH. Wiz, Psy, Veno, Sin, Cleric? Sure bring it lol. I'm all for helping out the other classes that are actually useful in TW like Psys/Wizzies/Venos/Axe BMs. No one looks at me and says "oh he is a horrible DD because hes sage". The last demon archer that said that to me got 1 shot by a Stormrage crit lols and that was pre-99 (aka pre-good gear, as in gear you don't have yet; also he was demon ^_^).

And again, since you keep neglecting that I've said it (I've said it in other threads too). Demon has great dps and -- >SUPERIOR<-- dps potential. However, if your playstyle is better suited to sage, then by all means roll one. It's not as if 10% more crit means Sage never crits and can't DD. I DD harder with non crit normals, and harder with crit'd normals. Demon hits harder when QS/STA/Stun proc. And hits faster when Demon sparked (obviously). Still, sage is a viable alternative, and both are great for pvp.

Note: Apologies for the essaylike posts lol. Sometimes youre a college student taking tons of english history classes. 8 pages is nothing so these posts are really nothing. b:victory

Dude, tl:dr....seriously.

EDIT: came back and read it all cuz i was bored. well, kind of, I skimmed some parts.
First of all, why are you talking about "full aps"? what the hell does that phrase even mean? Anyway, reading this has made 2 things explicitly clear to me
1. you are not a farmer, therefore you would not see the value in equipping an archer to farm.
2. you don't do a whole lot of research around here, because fist mastery actually accounts for a much smaller amount of damage than u probably believe.

And why, why would you assume I'm talking about using fists on regular mobs when i say "5 aps archer", no. that's **** and inefficient. However, it doesn't slightly outdps bows on bosses, it is PERMASPARK 5 HITS A SECOND. If you can't look up the mathematical facts as to why the dps is noticeably higher, try to at least use basic logic.

At this point I am wondering why I am arguing with you, because the simple statement "you have no aps" can probably discredit anything you have ever said on this forum through it's blunt asininity. Same goes for the person who came to the conclusion that you were a horrible DD for being sage( would prolly be better if demon, ijs), and then again back to you for using stormrage(unless it was meant as a joke).

And buddy, ofc you don't need to be 5 aps to be in squads, but if one makes most of their cash spamming tt's/nirvanas/etc, then it is a wise investment to make. And if you aren't up for making an entire new character, and pumping all your precious cash into it just to send it back to the first one who could do the job competently enough if you were to just gear it up in the first place instead of making a second char,......*deep breath* then a 5 aps archer, (who doesn't use fists when inappropriate like some dip****) is an efficient char to farm with.

People farm in-game because they're here to play a game, no **** it's faster to charge money, but for people who want to play by farming, me not included, let them seizure-jerk over bosses.

Well-geared APS users can solo or dual pretty much all the bosses in this game, so your argument that a squad with one APS tank can take bosses down fast is kind of stupid.

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If I spent the coin from the LG cape/Ornas/Nirvy legs on things I want I would be a lot better off, especially in pvp. The fist archer may be the poor man's farming tool I suppose (even though it is much more costly than anything I desire), but is there a point to farming after achieving that much?

-->If you did take the coin from all that waste, you'd most likely have some decent gear and refines, I agree. End game all fists is good for is solo farming, and people only do that if they're trying to gear up fast to TW or prepare for an alt.

-->The "fist archer may be a poor man's farming tool argument" makes absolutely no sense in the fact that if they REALLY wanted to gear out faster, they would have just leveled a BM/Sin FIRST and then transferred over gear/coin in order to deck out an Archer. Doing it in reverse much? Need I remind any of you that with pw calc you can quite easily see how a bm/sin can out DD a fist archer easily? Shameful really.
-->inb4yousayhowdidIrollthewrongclasstofarmgearlulz

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Also that BM I mentioned from SoT was not well geared. I believe he was 2.86. He was there for bh and to HF. He was a good BM still. I was the tank and my Wizard brother tanked Rancid lols, BM could not hold aggro not like it mattered since it was literally an 8-20 second boss spark ****. Good job there though.

-->The thing here you fail to realize is that most squads are in fact nerfed because most people waste too much coin incorrectly decking out their classes for HF 3spark **** to be an effective alternative to perma spark fists. Sure it can be done but with the way people trash their classes, I'm amazed that people even bother complaining about their being a total landslide of classes anymore. I mean seriously archers trying to be Bm's, barb's trying to be Bm's, Bm's trying to be sins... Its really disgusting actually. Whats next 5.0 Wizards/Psy's? In all honesty any defense of not playing your class the way it was designed can be refuted with the simple logic of "Didnt you roll the wrong class? Are you SURE you want to be an archer? Because last I checked they used bows."

-->inb4yousayhowdoesfistbuildruinpwiclassbalance

Also TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Rehashed arguments are rehashed.

Now that BMs can no longer glitch DBB, archers do about the same or possibly more DPS. If you reroll to a BM wanting to get higher DPS you are wasting your time. It would only be worthwhile to roll a sin but sin is pretty lame and embarrassing to play.

And I agree let those that farm continue to farm, its them that ruin the server economy by not knowing how to price things and buying overpriced. ;D (I swear if I see another Demon STA sell at 25mil+...Clip is 42ish mil)

^There is literally no logic, knowledge, or reason applied in the above statement.

Sad crit rate makes me sad

Dont You EVEN be talkin about crit rate, you sage.

but is there a point to farming after achieving that much?

Yes, becuse that's really not all that much, but I wouldn't expect you to know. so its ok.


Some things are a bit off with your arguments and general understanding of "end game" and THE game in general, my good sir.

I did say feel free to improve on those builds. I don't build for aps, and never really would as it is redundant in the long term, as I've stated several times. Things still die, idc if they die slightly quicker. Aps really helps little in TW/pvp since I can one/2 shot nearly everything and if that doesnt work Aim Low from deadzone/Stun is 10-11 seconds of nuking and if my brother or another DD can't nuke/extend stunlock on that r9/Barb in that amount of time something is wrong lol.



Also apologies for attempting to create a BM (I know next to nothing of the class as I hate playing melee toons lol), but you're right, I should've just rolled a sin in pwcalc. IT would've been basically the same gear. I did pick the wrong farming alt after all. :P

@_blood_rain: Yes, Demon gets what 2% more crit rate with normals etc (from passives) and 10% when STA/Stun proc. Grats? Sage still crits, its not as if my current trash crit rate of 31% (Trash tome, etc) means I never crit. Demon sin>Sage Sin>Demon Archer>Sage Archer>Demon fist archer, I assume thats a pretty accurate representation of crit rate. Note how a sage archer with a bow crits more than a demon with fists. Now note it again. You kill things slightly faster when sparked/when proc is active. I still like my longer stun and my infinite supply of chi for WoG/EA/Shell in TW tyvm (inb4clouderuptionandchipotsbecauseicanalsodothatandgetsagechigainaswell). Also sage BoA is great for non BB scenarios like tanking sins in TW. I recognize the advantages of demon when I see them (QS/Stun/STA foremost amongst them), yet it seems so difficult for a demon to recognize sage's advantages where they are.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes, because that's really not all that much, but I wouldn't expect you to know. so its ok.

You were referring to r9? Or full Nirvy perhaps? Those come with time, though perhaps me playing my archer for 2 years (on and off with breaks, before sins I had a wizzy; before that I had IRL commitments, I still do) means that I too am not into farming or creating an aps alt (I made an alt thats actually one I would have a use for, a barb, later on I'll probably roll a cleric).

@Asterelle: Thanks, as usual your posts are solid. I know very little about BMs (Never played one), and I had trouble even coming up with ways to give it more aps (My barb won't be getting endgame HA for a while, shouldve just made a LA BM). IF I were to ever make a farming alt (which I won't mind you) I would just use a sin, even though they are silly. I am a purist and I would probably restat even more into dex if I was able to just to have the maximum possible dph with a bow that I can.

@Quilue: Feel free to build a better BM. I'm far too lazy and I don't care enough to make one. It was mostly taken from a BM on the BM forums anyways. Should I have just used TT99LA boots/HA99 orns? Then they could've just been account stashed. Or account stash your archer's gear to a sin for maximum farming potential (Archers can't get BP, so I'm pretty sure there are situations where the BM would indeed be superior, not in dps output but in survivability).

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Last time I checked, there is no claw-only BM, or claw-only any class for that matter

really? You meet other archers that use bows more frequently than claws on your server outside of pvp? Perhaps its just DW then that doesn't know that you can help a squad kill faster using some skills instead of just maximizing ones solo dps. Squad dps is pretty nice too (Undine+Sage frost arrow wins lol; veno amp too, aps people on my server shun all classes that arent sins/bms, even archers for the most part). Blessed be Sanctuary.

@Fleuri: You know the math and everything is really nice on paper, and before its applied *points to Joshcja*. Sometimes its still very good then *points to Asterelle's calculator*. There are times however where you are not calculating in other uses. The BM will have more hp. The BM can self bell. The BM can receive BP. And a sin can dps even harder. There are too many variables and even unknown and incalculable variables like player skill, lag and reaction time amongst other unknown factors.


As for the archer pwcalc, I initially built it off of my own archer's pwcalc, but I kept finding issues with acquiring enough strength for deicides. I will admit I was surprised that once I got them on there the defense loss was not that noticeable (though it would be if I had a cube neck/cloudcharger). Apologies on the tome btw, I had changed it for nirvy pants but I guess I forgot to save it. I had originally built it for GVs, but I realized if I changed the r8 ring I could get deicides on it. I didnt even put demon spark on because it slipped my mind (I was turning my archer into 5.0 after all, and demon spark isn't really an option or a desire for me, though it could be used for a cheaper farming alternative).


Archers are great as is, and sure you may go 5.0 if you do so desire, but I still stick to my argument of why bother to go 5.0 on a toon that will never be the best at it. I mean, archers are really great as is with pure bow/dex builds, and really the only thing that will out dps them are aps exploited toons and sins, both things that are essentially cheat codes for a game that is easy enough without aps. I still enjoy sticking up for venos and other neglected classes and bringing them to Nirvy or wherever because I recognize that 2bms,2sins,an aps barb/archer and a cleric isnt the only way to do things. (inb4itwouldn'thavebeendesignedthatwayifitwasn'tintended).


Also, is the argument for fist archers merely based on the fact they have -int on the rank top? If so, thats quite something. In my eyes bell and HF are at least as good as 2 pieces of -int gear so a 3.33 BM is fine with me (especially if multiple BMs time their HFs). Keep in mind that comes from the view that a demon archer can only slightly out DD me on bosses, and can't really do anything else terribly useful that I myself cannot do. My STA hits for more. My normals hit for more. Whenver QS/Stun/STA proc is inactive I hit for more. I have slightly more range. Sure, they buff me 200-300 more evasion, but what use is that. I stun longer and I can tank better out of BB. Hell, I even have chi to waste on Alacrity for the cleric. Perhaps from another classes eyes a demon archer really is more efficient for maximizing squad dps and not just their own...

Claw users simply bring better damage output than non-claw users to instances. It's also not 30s of boss combat shortened, it's a lot more. You both seem to like padding your arguments with opinions. Something tells me you've never been to 3-3 TT, WB hunts, or even Nirvana for that matter if you don't understand how much permasparks characters shorten a fight.

It's not that no one will take you to instances if you don't have claws, being taken to instances also have something to do with connections you have with other players - and that is why claw archers may get chosen over claw anything else in any particular squad. It's just that claws is the cheapest way to increase a DD's contribution to the squad. For that matter, the only extra cost is a refined Lunar claw. Anything else contributes to APS when using a bow as well so it's not wasted. Wasted resources is rerolling a BM to farm, wasted resources is rerolling a sin to farm.

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

-->Looks at my level, looks back yea pretty sure that says 100 alright. Been doing WB's since lvl70 over a year ago. And idk about you, but in 5 nirvy runs which takes anywhere from 20-30mins 2 aps classes are all that is really needed. Yes that means I can take my friends and my loved ones along who don't really do any great damage. I can even take 3 clerics if I want because we have all the DD that is relatively needed for a moderately fast run. Though I do enjoy your ability to disregard what I even said and just post whatever you like, thinking I wont notice.

Anybody can dd for a world boss. I solo/duo wbs more or less 3 years ago... pretty sure that beats your one year. and why does it matter if someone else wants a 6 5aps squad... you are not in it... so why should you really care? take 5 clerics and do a hour long nirvana run for all that matters... no one really cares.

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

-->Looks at my level, looks back yea pretty sure that says 100 alright. Been doing WB's since lvl70 over a year ago. And idk about you, but in 5 nirvy runs which takes anywhere from 20-30mins 2 aps classes are all that is really needed. Yes that means I can take my friends and my loved ones along who don't really do any great damage. I can even take 3 clerics if I want because we have all the DD that is relatively needed for a moderately fast run. Though I do enjoy your ability to disregard what I even said and just post whatever you like, thinking I wont notice.

You don't seem to know what a real WB hunt is. No one cares about your lvl 70 back water "oh look I was at Alpha." People get up at maint to take out WBs in quick succession, in order to come back the next night when it respawns. Because WBs respawn 24hours after they die, it means if your squad is slow, you will be staying up later and later as the week goes on or you will be hitting less and less WBs as other squads take them out before you get there. On double drops it's easily 50m a night if you have a good private squad. Why have an archer in the squad? 1 STA takes out 1/6 of the boss' hp that is why, there's my 1/6 squad contribution for you plus additional damage from claw DD. (better if you have BV) Again, you have no idea what you're talking about at all.

30min Nirv runs...lol you missed the point of what you just quoted. Clearly if permaspark users only shorten a boss by 30-40s, the fastest squads on the server would be running Nirv in at least 18min, but that is not the case is it?? You also fail to mention any experience of 3-x TT where having not enough damage output would place the success of the run in jeopardy. This is why I say you have no experience whatsoever in any endgame farming.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Anybody can dd for a world boss. I solo/duo wbs more or less 3 years ago... pretty sure that beats your one year. and why does it matter if someone else wants a 6 5aps squad... you are not in it... so why should you really care? take 5 clerics and do a hour long nirvana run for all that matters... no one really cares.

-->What does the amount of time one has played the game have any relevance to what I said? Are you bragging you're wasting more of you life online? I don't get it. b:chuckle

-->The point of what I said about MY TIME in game was to refute the false assumption that I have never done a WB hunt before. Which as a matter of fact I did today. It wasn't even difficult, didn't take very long for 3 bosses with just under 30 people, and I didn't die a single time. That's what faction mates are for. Congratz on your duo or w/e, well I guess that's a great achievement for you apparently, although that's not entirely practical anymore. But I guess if you like 1 or 2 bosses instead of 3-4 when in competition against others, then w/e.

-->Also where did I ever say 6man aps squad? I said 2APS IS ALL THAT IS NEEDED FOR A MODERATELY FAST SQUAD Multiple times. Its in this thread at least 4 times now. Let me bold it and underline it for you from now on.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

You don't seem to know what a real WB hunt is. No one cares about your lvl 70 back water "oh look I was at Alpha." People get up at maint to take out WBs in quick succession, in order to come back the next night when it respawns. Because WBs respawn 24hours after they die, it means if your squad is slow, you will be staying up later and later as the week goes on or you will be hitting less and less WBs as other squads take them out before you get there. On double drops it's easily 50m a night if you have a good private squad. Why have an archer in the squad? 1 STA takes out 1/6 of the boss' hp that is why, there's my 1/6 squad contribution for you plus additional damage from claw DD. (better if you have BV) Again, you have no idea what you're talking about at all.

-->Already answered this response, god you all think the same. Its like dealing with clones. And believe it or not yes I like archers in squad, never said I didn't like STA, but I said CLAW-ARCHER as in mainly claws. Yes I get you can use a bow and DD with "claws", but I'll be the one laughing when you die on Sonic Oppressor like 10 times with those claws. Watched it happen to a few claw-archers about 2hrs ago. b:victory

-->Need I even mention that I can replace you with 1 bm with Deicides? http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/16104 hmm look at that chance to decrease boss max hp sounds similar... Oh wait JUST LIKE STA. Rage now? Go ahead b:laugh

-->You must be thinking man this guy is a troll, well I guess I am trolling if it wakes you up to the fact that the only real unique benefit you can give to a squad is the skills most of you choose not to use for whatever godforsaken reason. Honestly half of you should just reroll a bm/sin if you're so into your claws, if you havent already.

Kiyoshi - Heavens Tear wrote: »

30min Nirv runs...lol you missed the point of what you just quoted. Clearly if permaspark users only shorten a boss by 30-40s, the fastest squads on the server would be running Nirv in at least 18min, but that is not the case is it?? You also fail to mention any experience of 3-x TT where having not enough damage output would place the success of the run in jeopardy. This is why I say you have no experience whatsoever in any endgame farming.

-->Okay you got me I admit that I exaggerate with times, I'm not some master of math like you're all "supposed to be". Also excuse me if I'm wrong, but what 3-x TT squad dies if it already has TWO APS DD in it? What kind of garbage people do you squad with for TT? Non rank9's/rank8's? ROFL

-->Really are you a troll or are you going to present facts? Give me statistics, give me math. Come on archers where is your proof in numbers? Where is your formulas for disproving that a fist bm or a sin cant replace you!

-->Unless somebody can present an argument grounded in logic this thread is doomed to Sin>Claw-Archer, Bm>Claw-Archer, Claw-Barb>Claw-Archer. Claw-Wizard>Claw-Archer.

TL: DR Present facts, assuming I have no experience is the weakest argument I have ever had the misfortune of reading. Good day mates. b:victory

@_blood_rain: Yes, Demon gets what 2% more crit rate with normals etc (from passives) and 10% when STA/Stun proc. Grats? Sage still crits, its not as if my current trash crit rate of 31% (Trash tome, etc) means I never crit. Demon Archer>Sage Archer(fixed) I assume thats a pretty accurate representation of crit rate. Note how a sage archer with a bow crits more than a demon with fists. Now note it again. You kill things slightly faster when sparked/when proc is active. I still like my longer stun and my infinite supply of chi for WoG/EA/Shell in TW tyvm (inb4clouderuptionandchipotsbecauseicanalsodothatandgetsagechigainaswell). Also sage BoA is great for non BB scenarios like tanking sins in TW. I recognize the advantages of demon when I see them (QS/Stun/STA foremost amongst them), yet it seems so difficult for a demon to recognize sage's advantages where they are.

This is getting tedious. You should learn to condense your ideas, Im not your college professor I dont demand 8 pages per response. Most amazing is your ability to write a whole lot without saying anything at all, as again your argument is irrelevant to anything indicating a basic understanding of the issue.

really? You meet other archers that use bows more frequently than claws on your server outside of pvp? Perhaps its just DW then that doesn't know that you can help a squad kill faster using some skills instead of just maximizing ones solo dps. Squad dps is pretty nice too (Undine+Sage frost arrow wins lol; veno amp too, aps people on my server shun all classes that arent sins/bms, even archers for the most part). Blessed be Sanctuary.

lul^

Archers are great as is, and sure you may go 5.0 if you do so desire, but I still stick to my argument of why bother to go 5.0 on a toon that will never be the best at it. I mean, archers are really great as is with pure bow/dex builds, and really the only thing that will out dps them are aps exploited toons and sins, both things that are essentially cheat codes for a game that is easy enough without aps. I still enjoy sticking up for venos and other neglected classes and bringing them to Nirvy or wherever because I recognize that 2bms,2sins,an aps barb/archer and a cleric isnt the only way to do things. (inb4itwouldn'thavebeendesignedthatwayifitwasn'tintended).

You said something about overkill not being necessary in those great walls of text before, yet your whole argument revolves around contradicting yourself because you still insist we make a whole different char just to "DPS MOAR"

Also, is the argument for fist archers merely based on the fact they have -int on the rank top? If so, thats quite something. In my eyes bell and HF are at least as good as 2 pieces of -int gear so a 3.33 BM is fine with me (especially if multiple BMs time their HFs). Keep in mind that comes from the view that a demon archer can only slightly out DD me on bosses, and can't really do anything else terribly useful that I myself cannot do. My STA hits for more. My normals hit for more. Whenver QS/Stun/STA proc is inactive I hit for more. I have slightly more range. Sure, they buff me 200-300 more evasion, but what use is that. I stun longer and I can tank better out of BB. Hell, I even have chi to waste on Alacrity for the cleric. Perhaps from another classes eyes a demon archer really is more efficient for maximizing squad dps and not just their own...

A 5 aps archer will outDD you. But demon archers can do much more terribly useful things than you. You know what was the most boring thing pre-easy rep era, watching a sage archer who isn't overgeared trying to kill someone, even someone who is afk. This "hits for more"argument is completely laughable but I'm not gonna tell you why. And anyway, judging by these posts all you do is tank BH, why don't you take your own advice and reroll in that case?

Kerona - Sanctuary wrote: »

On an HF a caster can crit, what, 40-90k on a boss. We look, we feel proud of it, we gloat internally.

I've seen a wizard with a +5-ish midnight black hit for 400k-ish on an hf.

This kind of thing can be fun.

_blood_rain - Sanctuary wrote: »

A 5 aps archer will outDD you. But demon archers can do much more terribly useful things than you. You know what was the most boring thing pre-easy rep era, watching a sage archer who isn't overgeared trying to kill someone, even someone who is afk. This "hits for more"argument is completely laughable but I'm not gonna tell you why. And anyway, judging by these posts all you do is tank BH, why don't you take your own advice and reroll in that case?

Sage with moderate crossbow, sage skills and zooming thunder should have good burst damage.