Nerfing Sins
Comments
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Sins are overpowered in PvP, yeah. And PvE for boss killing. The stealth is really helpful in a lot of instances and I love bloodpaint. I would hate to see sins get nerfed and be less useful in those instances because it really makes it easier for everyone else.
There are some places where sins are easily not as good as other classes. Sins in TW have specific roles (killing arcanes, cleric hunting) whereas other classes can help a lot more. Sins aren't perfect for everything, and they don't need a nerf.0 -
Make other classes useful too.Arocus - Archosaur wrote: »Sins are overpowered in PvP, yeah. And PvE for boss killing. The stealth is really helpful in a lot of instances and I love bloodpaint. I would hate to see sins get nerfed and be less useful in those instances because it really makes it easier for everyone else...
Without words like: "High level Wizards are good for group PvP only. You are lucky to look how good other classes at PvE, etc.".
I think, every Wizard will prefer to tank boss himself, without Assassin (this is my opinion).[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
u have right, i could ask something? lets say somebody played 300hour, how much % from this the tw and how much profit u gain from tw what help u in getting better gear?Arocus - Archosaur wrote: »Sins are overpowered in PvP, yeah. And PvE for boss killing. The stealth is really helpful in a lot of instances and I love bloodpaint. I would hate to see sins get nerfed and be less useful in those instances because it really makes it easier for everyone else.
There are some places where sins are easily not as good as other classes. Sins in TW have specific roles (killing arcanes, cleric hunting) whereas other classes can help a lot more. Sins aren't perfect for everything, and they don't need a nerf.
(i dont say nerf there skill, but like i said a inv.detect potion still ok or just end game eq with less itnerval COLOR="LemonChiffon"]how was a bit nerfed the wizz r9 compared w r8[/COLOR][COLOR="PaleGreen"]{i mean less crit% eq dmg and set needed, in my view point kinda nerfed compared with r8 weapon+custom gear in older times}[/COLOR )0 -
Ok if you look at every closely assassins are over powered in PvP no doubt, but as far as PvE goes I don't mind leaving things the way they are. Some of the assassins skills are pretty OP but I don't think that is the major problem. In my opinion it is mostly because like an archer assassin can gain maximum damage with their daggers by going pure dex, combine that with 4.0 r9/5.0 nirvana dags and it is god mode so to speak. Unlike a BM who has to sacrifice some strength or vit to get enough dex to use claws/fist. Honestly I think just nerfing their damage as far as PvP goes would be nice. Kind of how Absorb Soul is nerfed in PvP, this would be the same deal.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]I know what your thinking.0
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Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »Make other classes useful too.
Without words like: "High level Wizards are good for group PvP only. You are lucky to look how good other classes at PvE, etc.".
I think, every Wizard will prefer to tank boss himself, without Assassin (this is my opinion).
Other classes are useful. It's just that the classes are useful in different ways. If you want a tank, roll a barb (or aps sin/bm, but meh). If you want a healer, roll a cleric (or mystic, but meh also). Each class has it's niche.
There are bosses that wizards can tank, like all of bh59, for instance. If that person wanted to be the tank, they should roll a barb.
To Shadowvs: Yeah, I know that TW isn't very much of the time that a person plays. It is a lot of fun though. I would think that playing a wizard or bm in TW would be more fun than a sin, but I don't really know. TW can only help get gear through TW pay, but that's not that much. I just meant it was more fun.
If a caster wants better gear, there are always squads that will take them. If you get a group of friends, you can easily do farming runs and get the gear that you want. It's faster with aps, but that wouldn't hurt you that much. You farm at your pace, and they'll farm at theirs. It's not balanced, but that's how it is.0 -
Every class HAD a niche.
Now... want a tank? Grab a sin.
Want a healer? Grab a sin, they have bloodpaint.
Want a DD? Sin.
Aggro control? You've got sins, don't need that any more.
There are a few thing that still need real tanks, and actual healers - but they are few and far between.
It's like the complaints about hercs, turned up a thousandfold; since sins can do more, and much much faster.0 -
Arocus - Archosaur wrote: »Other classes are useful. It's just that the classes are useful in different ways. If you want a tank, roll a barb (or aps sin/bm, but meh). If you want a healer, roll a cleric (or mystic, but meh also). Each class has it's niche.
There are bosses that wizards can tank, like all of bh59, for instance. If that person wanted to be the tank, they should roll a barb. ...
Tell about barbarian to those, who tank without him at high levels.
They not know about this class may be and about "niche".[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Krarenka - Raging Tide wrote: »My point is that evry class at end-game lvls is OP. i'm a 5 APS sin with daggers +5 and all the rest +3 , +4 . OMFGIAM5APS ! According to people i should faceroll everyone .... LOL let me tell you i have stopped PKing and i went back to farm ! do u wanna know why? When u try to attack a cleric , and this cleric resist you and deals 7000 damage on you with just 1 attack (one shot),it makes me realise that sins are not OP. Or when a melee tries to attack a psychic and kills himself, it makes me think too. Try to attack a +12 psychic, dealing him 500-600 damage and getting back like 6k .
Try to kill a barb with full R9 and 30k + HP . Try to kill a R9 wizziewho can reach the same p. def of a HA with his buff and nuke the hell around with 1 skill .
Ofc, try to kill a full R9 sin.
Do u start seeing my point? what makes classes OP is the money they invested on it. Sure, a R8 sin can easily kill a R8 cleric but come on ! they have been named assassin for a reason. You want to nerf stealth/sins? ok so you should change their name ---> "AssassinABLE" . Try to reach a caster or an archer w/o stealth -.- ""
Sins are already quite squishy in open PvP (example=TW) , the proof is the strongest TW factions don't recruit sins anymore, they get killed as soon as they go out stealth for the simply fact that they are the only LA class attacking in melee range. This mean every ranged class kick their *** and HA class (with same-costly gear) can resist them too. Stealth is what makes sins able to kill someone.
It's pointless to duiscuss about PK in the low 50ish level. Reach end game and come back to this thread.
How can someone have +3 gear and wonder why they get 1 shot b:sweat I have mostly +8-10 gear on my sin but i would definitely get 1 shot if i tried to tank something like R9 +12 Psy or Wiz.
Does that mean sins are not OP? Of course not, it means i failed playing the class since i let them nuke my ***. You failed to if you let someone hit you 7k lol. Sins can NOT tank magic users with x3 times better gear, no one can. But unlike my archer/cleric/BM/veno etc my Assassin still has a chance since i can avoid taking dmg with cc- and defensive skills and kill them before i get nuked. Than there is apoc, genies and mag def charms, try using it.
Sins are OP 1v1 and in PvE its just lame trying to argue otherwise, specially when you're not even close to endgame in +3 gear.0 -
TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »...Sins are OP 1v1 and in PvE its just lame trying to argue otherwise, specially when you're not even close to endgame in +3 gear.
Please, post price for -0,1 interval daggers.
About 30 mln may be.
How about -20 channeling for same price ?
Can I buy it ?
Where ?
Edit:
My maximum refines +5[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »Every class HAD a niche.
Now... want a tank? Grab a sin.
Want a healer? Grab a sin, they have bloodpaint.
Want a DD? Sin.
Aggro control? You've got sins, don't need that any more.
There are a few thing that still need real tanks, and actual healers - but they are few and far between.
It's like the complaints about hercs, turned up a thousandfold; since sins can do more, and much much faster.
And to Magicsaber too, since it's pretty much the same thing:
Yeah, at endgame when a sin has insane dps and bloodpaint does the cleric's job and lets the sin tank instead of a barb. Before that, sins are extremely squishy and really can't do all that much solo. At endgame, barbs, bms, archers, and sins can all do that. Sins just do more damage.
Up until the sin gets high aps and can take a few hits before dropping, they'll need other classes to help them. Lines between class roles only start blurring then.0 -
Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »Please, post price for -0,1 interval daggers.
About 30 mln may be.
Um...
The only guaranteed -0.1 interval dagger in the game is Barrier Thorn: Nirvana, which will cost you some 220,000,000 coins. That's 220 million if you don't know.
If you want to get even worse, try for a 2x -0.05 Sacrificial Strike Dark Death Thorn. Just the raptures put it at 520,000,000.I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.0 -
Magicsaber - Dreamweaver wrote: »Please, post price for -0,1 interval daggers.
About 30 mln may be.
How about -20 channeling for same price ?
Can I buy it ?
Where ?
Edit:
My maximum refines +5TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »How can someone have +3 gear and wonder why they get 1 shot b:sweat I have mostly +8-10 gear on my sin but i would definitely get 1 shot if i tried to tank something like R9 +12 Psy or Wiz.
Does that mean sins are not OP? Of course not, it means i failed playing the class since i let them nuke my ***. You failed to if you let someone hit you 7k lol. Sins can NOT tank magic users with x3 times better gear, no one can. But unlike my archer/cleric/BM/veno etc my Assassin still has a chance since i can avoid taking dmg with cc- and defensive skills and kill them before i get nuked. Than there is apoc, genies and mag def charms, try using it.
Sins are OP 1v1 and in PvE its just lame trying to argue otherwise, specially when you're not even close to endgame in +3 gear.
Ehm lily i wonder if u can read my other posts since i've been already told this. I'll give you the same answer : SAINT_ in my server has R9 + 12 (sin) , and he still get 2-3 hitted by a R9 cleric and barb. And he has not armors + 3 , but +7 / 8 and some pieces + 10
Oh and guess what? he knows how to play.
Often he kills them , but sometimes he get killed too , this meaning ther is not a huge difference.
@Magicsaber another post like that and people will crash their face keeping facedesking . 20 m ? lol , just for the TT99 maybe.0 -
Krarenka - Raging Tide wrote: »@Magicsaber another post like that and people will crash their face keeping facedesking . 20 m ? lol , just for the TT99 maybe.
i think he mean u cant buy 20% channel on weapon not like -0,1 interval but i could add here sacrifice effect too or self purify0 -
Krarenka - Raging Tide wrote: »Ehm lily i wonder if u can read my other posts since i've been already told this. I'll give you the same answer : SAINT_ in my server has R9 + 12 (sin) , and he still get 2-3 hitted by a R9 cleric and barb. And he has not armors + 3 , but +7 / 8 and some pieces + 10
Oh and guess what? he knows how to play.
Often he kills them , but sometimes he get killed too , this meaning ther is not a huge difference.
.... If he knows how to play the game well then him being beat would most likely never happen, maybe on the occasional mess up, why?
- Deaden can be up almost permanently, so you've got a second wind
- Stealth, your own safezone, and the decision to start/stop a fight
- A grand aray of every CC ability in the game, and may i ad the longest lasting CC skills of any class. the only class that can even sometimes match that length is a clerics sleep, but only on the (very) rare occasion
and that's before adding in what they can do to you with a good genie
SO the only thing capable of beating a sin who truly knows their class is a (big) gank fest, or a GM
Also I want a -20% wep with a ridiculous m-attack base b:dirty but no casters dont, but sins get practically better than that. I'm starting to believe PW hates casters (****** Stauch worms man)I
A lot of people0 -
Deaden nerves can be up almost permanently? even with Sage deaden nerves, theres a 30 second where you arent protected by deaden nerves. Second wind only heals ONCE, after that you can easily die.
Aoes/Higher level sins can see you in stealth.
Max length we can stun someone is 16 seconds. Demon headhunt-7 secs, deep sting-5secs, throatcut-4 secs. 7+5+4=16 seconds
BMs are MUCH better at stun locking and can stun longer0 -
Niner - Dreamweaver wrote: »Deaden nerves can be up almost permanently? even with Sage deaden nerves, theres a 30 second where you arent protected by deaden nerves. Second wind only heals ONCE, after that you can easily die.
Aoes/Higher level sins can see you in stealth.
Max length we can stun someone is 16 seconds. Demon headhunt-7 secs, deep sting-5secs, throatcut-4 secs. 7+5+4=16 seconds
BMs are MUCH better at stun locking and can stun longer
30 second window of it not being around = almost permanently. Not to mention the portable safe zone of stealth. And if you're fighting a non-sin and nerves ticks, cue shadow escape, then just wait 30 seconds and you're good to go again!
AoEs are relatively easy to avoid outside of maybe TW and even then you can avoid them fairly well if you aren't running around near your fac members all the time. As for the other sin thing, well... shows how broken it is when your only threat is a higher level of the same class
And any sin who knows how to play worth anything can chain for far longer than 16 seconds. It's not like chi is a problem when it comes to keeping the lock going for sins, unlike BMs who have to keep their chi up if they want to stunlock because they don't have skills that give multiple sparks for free.0 -
Archers were nerfed and their one of the worst pvp classes are knockback skills dont work on pvp all damage from air is nerfed and yet they allow sins to be rediculiously overpowered.. if your a mage or archer no point in ever going in pk mode they mine as well make the whole game sins if their not nerfed.. either take away their invisiblity or take away their freeze shouldnt be able to have both... either that or balnce the game and make archers and clerics better at pvp because right now its very unbalanced...0
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so like, u guys think that a rank 9 wizzard one hitting 10+ ppl all at once including sins that are in stealth is not overpowered?
a sin can only 1v1 someone to kill them, a wizzard can take out a entire group with +12 rank 9 gear.0 -
Barunaa - Heavens Tear wrote: »so like, u guys think that a rank 9 wizzard one hitting 10+ ppl all at once including sins that are in stealth is not overpowered?
a sin can only 1v1 someone to kill them, a wizzard can take out a entire group with +12 rank 9 gear.
S'up?0 -
1. Second wind as in the expression not the actual skillNiner - Dreamweaver wrote: »Deaden nerves can be up almost permanently? even with Sage deaden nerves, theres a 30 second where you arent protected by deaden nerves. Second wind only heals ONCE, after that you can easily die.
Aoes/Higher level sins can see you in stealth.
Max length we can stun someone is 16 seconds. Demon headhunt-7 secs, deep sting-5secs, throatcut-4 secs. 7+5+4=16 seconds
BMs are MUCH better at stun locking and can stun longer
2. avoid other targets if you're worried about aoes
3 16 seconds is already long enough for a sin to kill anyone,
4 if 16 seconds is all you can come up with then you kinda suck at being a sin
Heres a skill macro that will wreck anyone, (D) Shadow tele -Puncture wound- (D)Headhunt - rising dragon -autoattack- tackling slash - throatcut - auto attack- deep sting- inner harmony +(insert any rebuffs here/ Total<4sec) - throatcut (yes again), for a grand 26 freeking seconds (and if ya cant afford the demon versions that's still 23 seconds), if you cant kill anyone that isn't attacking back in that amount of time you should quit right now.
And for a giggle lets add occult ice to the mix, Soooo
(D) Shadow tele -Puncture wound- (D)Headhunt - rising dragon -autoattack- tackling slash - throatcut - auto attack- deep sting- inner harmony +(insert any rebuffs here/ total<4 sec) -Occult- Tackling slash - Throatcut (yes again) So now we have a 30 second stun-lock
(warning I may be of f by a second or two, but its still a valid point)
now really if any player isn't dead you are pure **** or they completely out gear you, at which point you should be questioning why you even took on that opponent
Edit:
But you see R9 is overpowered (and costs enough for me to set m house up for a cat, and buy it ), it isnt the class that's overpowered. for sins it's the class, R9 on a sin is just scarryBarunaa - Heavens Tear wrote: »so like, u guys think that a rank 9 wizzard one hitting 10+ ppl all at once including sins that are in stealth is not overpowered?
a sin can only 1v1 someone to kill them, a wizzard can take out a entire group with +12 rank 9 gear.I A lot of people0 -
Well, sorry, i forgot about the stuns tele.
I was just adding up the stun time. not including combos, thank you very much >_>
and just cuz u clearly wanna insult me, lemme pay you back.
Those combos of yours will wreck ANYONE right?
ever heard of Absolute Domain, or Expel?
Those can ruin a stun lock :P0 -
Niner - Dreamweaver wrote: »Well, sorry, i forgot about the stuns tele.
I was just adding up the stun time. not including combos, thank you very much >_>
and just cuz u clearly wanna insult me, lemme pay you back.
Those combos of yours will wreck ANYONE right?
ever heard of Absolute Domain, or Expel?
Those can ruin a stun lock :P
combo was in case anyone said you don't have enough chi for doing the stuns...and I'm probably missing a few more things you can do but the point was made
and yes I have, I use those pretty frequently. I was providing the max amount of time you can have a stun lock going. also there are a multitude of other ways to combat expel/faith/AD/badge one being just shadow escape and wait for it to go awayI A lot of people0 -
No **** genies can stop a stun lock, just like genies can stop any attack, be it caster 2 spark or anything else; too bad Sins generate so much chi they can keep trying and trying and trying because they're SO SPECIAL.
You break out of a BM's stun lock he's going to be much shorter on chi than a damn sin. In fact, 1v1 BM vs Sin with same lvl of gear and skill, BM will likely lose simply because of chi.
Seriously sins out there with less than 500 kills, stop trying to defend your class' PvP aspects because you don't know what you're talking about. LMAO
My ******n alt cleric has more kills from Cube.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
amount of kills=/= skills, there are such things as duels you know?0
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This is still going on?
Anyways, I don't care. In fact I like the challenge, and ofc, I played a sin, but left it. Only reason I'd play one is for farming. Yes they can stunlock forever, they have high *** dps and can solo group instances. Many MMOs have OP classes, not big news. All of these skills are 1 vs 1, which they were planned to be beasts. I'm not talking PvE, I'm talking PvP.
Oh noez sins can stealth and give the first shot and then u r deadz! wow big news, let's put a wizzie or a psy to spark and cast one of their hard hitting skills to a sin (that sin may not have deaden nerves on, or it may be on cd) bam one shot, QQ. Same thing, only difference is, a sin can do that and go back to stealth. Anyone can give the first shot if the other person isn't aware. If you guys are talking about duels and 1 on 1, then that's another story.
In TW, well, no comments, they have their specific roles but nowhere as effective as other classes. In group pvp, same thing, they r good but not OP. 1 vs 1 extremely OP. PvE, OP as well. Well make a sin to farm for your main and problem solved if PvE is your problem. Only thing that they would bother me is PvP, but hell PvE? Since when is PvE that fun? Idk you but if there's a char where I can easily farm fast I'm gonna make it and beef up my main.
All these QQs are 1 vs 1. There's a 1% chances of PWE nerfing them. All this QQ is useless, go back to the game and enjoy and have fun or quit if assassins make you rage. or flood support with tickets QQing about nerfing sins and expect that they don't just plug the PC to the toilet.0 -
OmG wE HAz TO LiKe NERf SiinZ ASAAAAPPPPP0
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They suck in mass PvP precisely because the devs balanced them wrong. Too OP in small fights, too crappy in big fights.
Stuns requiring spark was wrong because it led to long stun duration which is inappropriate for a stealth/kiter class and because it led to long cooldown which limits their effectiveness in mass PvP.
Stealth gaining a spark is also stupid because the fact that it's so OP also warrants long cooldown, thus limiting effectiveness in mass PvP.
All the chi gain was wrong and stupid.
The disable dodge was probably meant to boost their bad performance in mass PvP, which can only be caused by having spark-costing, long duration stuns with long cooldowns and OP spark-giving stealth with long cooldown.
Seriously a class with sins damage output shouldn't need very long stuns. You don't need a stun with +6s when a target can die in 3. Sin damage output >> BM damage output lol.
Get rid of the chi cost for the stuns, give them less duration and less cooldown similar to archer.
Get rid of the chi gain on stealth and give it shorter cooldown as well. Much more better class in solo and mass PvP i think.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Wait so u actually wanna boost their performance in mass PvP? You must be kidding right? If they are gonna keep being OP in 1 vs 1, then let them suck at mass PvP. And that'll be their flaw. And yes removing the spark that shadow escape gives (was it shadow escape?) would be good, i mean its a skill that allows u to escape in the middle of a fight, if anything it should cost chi.
And if they keep being so good for farming and OP at PvE, then perfect, i will make one to farm for my main.0 -
Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »... It's not that Assassins themselves have something that makes them OP. This is kinda evident in the fact that they kinda suck at lower levels.
It's the gear that's the problem. The high DPH, high DPS, high defenses, high life that the boutique-given gear gives is what screws up things. Then again, when you have people soloing group instances, that should pretty much tell that the gear is far too good. Because it's not just the sins that are doing it: BMs and Barbs and Archers do it too. And they've all remained pretty much unchanged from the pre-Tideborn era to today. And two years ago, if anyone suggested soloing 3-3, they'd get laughed at. Exactly because the standard of gear back then was much, much lower.
As for Assassins using stealth in PvE to bypass mobs that they'd have to kill otherwise, it's only applicable in a few places, as a lot of instances have mob counters that you have to complete to even think of killing the bosses.
About 90% of all the complaints about Assassins comes from the PvP part of it. The fact that you don't need to be a highly-skilled or geared assassin to go into stealth and pop a mad combo on some unsuspecting person for an easy kill. And that you can use Shadow Escape to pretty much restart the playing field into a situation that tends to favor the Assassin.
As for solving them: any nerf that people have in mind to solve the PvP aspect should only affect the PvP side. Because really, if you make an assassin able to use Stealth for 20 seconds, it's useless in PvE. If you make them unable to attack from Stealth, it's useless again. If you remove the spark from Shadow Escape, it's also kinda useless, because some people do use Shadow Escape for the spark. And if you make it cost a spark, it's even more useless.
As for solving the PvE aspect, it won't matter as people will just re-roll to a BM or an Archer and repeat from where they left with slight adjustments.
This x100.
The fact that someone can literally swipe a credit card and near instantly become a God skews any form of semblance of balance. Refining is probably the biggest advantage (if not the only advantage) boost in the game. Reduce the max refine lvl down to +5-6 or make getting to +12 insanely easy or cheap, and some balance might actually start to form. At least in PvP.Some people risk to employ me
Some people live to destroy me
Either way they die0 -
GodHero - Lost City wrote: »Wait so u actually wanna boost their performance in mass PvP? You must be kidding right? If they are gonna keep being OP in 1 vs 1, then let them suck at mass PvP. And that'll be their flaw. And yes removing the spark that shadow escape gives (was it shadow escape?) would be good, i mean its a skill that allows u to escape in the middle of a fight, if anything it should cost chi.
And if they keep being so good for farming and OP at PvE, then perfect, i will make one to farm for my main.
Nope, read what I posted. Get rid of much of its chi gain skills, less duration on stuns, no disable dodge, I'd imagine all that makes them somewhat easier to manage in solo fights.
I might even be wrong, maybe if these changes were implemented sins might be more OP due to having a more spammable stun (that's why this is a discussion, and that's why balance people would hopefully beta test). Balance discussion should always be about giving and taking to make a class more enjoyable to play with and to play against, but it seems like some people here cannot even begin to admit that change is necessary for the class.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0
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