Nerfing Sins

Cytte - Harshlands

WizardCraft - Harshlands wrote: »

There is no shame in playing an Assassin , leveling off of dragoons however ...

God I hope that was sarcasm. Because if its not, are you seriously saying, ohh hey its not okay for a group to make a zhen type party for a boss, and for those of us w/o great gears sometimes it takes planing a quick thinking to survive but it is okay for a single player to solo through every part of an instance made for group by clicking 3-4 buttons. Because thats what it implies.

thumbs

A) Their dmg is almost entirely physical
To be effective; they have to use crappy LA and -int armor
C) They pay far more for -int than other classes
D) They need cleric buffs or pots to do much of anything
E) Other classes get extra defense with their dmg enhancing stat while sins just get better evasion which is almost worthless
F) It takes them forever to level past 100 because they skip all mobs and just kill bosses

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

thumbs wrote: »

A) Their dmg is almost entirely physical
To be effective; they have to use crappy LA and -int armor
C) They pay far more for -int than other classes
D) They need cleric buffs or pots to do much of anything
E) Other classes get extra defense with their dmg enhancing stat while sins just get better evasion which is almost worthless
F) It takes them forever to level past 100 because they skip all mobs and just kill bosses

yeah, you're right. they are already nerfed. why does anyone play this under powered, weak and squishy class /sarcasm

Cytte - Harshlands

Vinnies - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Terribly designed? No.. The idea behind an sin is great. Maybe it's OP but still.. If everything was balanced, I think there wouldn't be much fun in an MMO tbh.

I repeat what i said before:
Yes, but its also that classes pre-tideborn expansion had that feeling of rock paper scissors (and by feeling i mean that scissors could beat rock, but rock had an easier time beating scissors, etc.),
then the fish came out and that feeling was lost, because you could honestly not know how to play this game and still wreck other classes easily as a sin, should you be a good/smart player behind a sin, nothing short of a gm (or a ridiculous number of players ganking you at once...or maybe a smart +12 r9 psy) could stop you.

thumbs wrote: »

A) Their dmg is almost entirely physicalSo are half the classes of the game
To be effective; they have to use crappy LA and -int armorNot true (about the -int stuff), I've easily killed players while I was wearing npc gear as a sin, and you can survive easily off boss drops. but yes LA does hav the worst hp/refine
C) They pay far more for -int than other classesthe -int gear isn't necessary....they also get it from some rank gear which is really cheap at this point
D) They need cleric buffs or pots to do much of anything Pots...kinda, Cler buffs....no not really, it just makes it easier than it already is
E) Other classes get extra defense with their dmg enhancing stat while sins just get better evasion which is almost worthless because they're not meant to be getting hit a lot, while those other str based classes are, so no, evasion isn't worthless I've survived many things because its missed me 4x in a row
F) It takes them forever to level past 100 because they skip all mobs and just kill bossesThat's just plain laziness

S_Swipe - Sanctuary wrote: »

Seeing how everyone and their sister has an alt sin, why bother nerfing them?

Because you shouldn't need to make a sin alt to be part of some game content, which is why most people make a sin alt.

WillowGirl - Dreamweaver

tl;dr all replies, but my opinion is...

People are complaining about sins, yes, but what they are REALLY complaining about is the terrible imbalance of classes in PWI - it just so happens that sins were the first class to really throw off the balance of the game. And the people most likely to be complaining are those older players who were around long before the Tideborn classes were introduced - we remember a time when there was actually some balance in classes. We remember when a squad consisted of barb, cleric, veno, archer, bm, and wiz, where teamwork was required, and knowledge of how and when to use what skills, when there was actually a need for skill in this game and not just mindless macro twitch twitch kill.

A friend and I joked a few days ago about how someday PWI will be nothing but sins, and TW will be nothing but a big, empty playing field (because everyone involved is in stealth).

I don't believe that PWE intentionally created this super uber class to make everyone crazy. I believe they were just trying to add something new and exciting to their game to keep people paying... I mean playing... or both b:chuckle

Rather than nerfing sins, I'd vote for a revamp of the original classes, because not all of us old-school, loyal players really care to roll some new class - I have a sin, a psychic, and a seeker, and I don't like any of them nearly as much as my archer. I also found that I just don't care enough to take my 85 sin all the way to 100, worry about gearing it and getting it 5 aps, just to use it to farm better gears for my archer.

If I can't play the game as I want to play, with the class I want to use, I'd rather just quit the game and find a new one than to fall into the alt-mania that's gone on the last couple of years or so with sins - seems everyone has a sin alt hanging in the wings just waiting for a farming run of some sort.

So, for all of those who commented something along the lines of "Why is everyone still QQing about this," I say: because we've given PWI well over 2 years of our time (nearly 3 years in my case, and even longer for some others I know), and some of us have given a heck of a lot of time and money, and we remember and are nostalgic of "the way things used to be."

I can't tell you how many friends I've seen depart from PWI because of all of the bad changes that have been made to it - yes, change is inevitable, change is even good sometimes, but PWI takes change to a new level and it has alienated a lot of the player base - but as long as the cash keeps rolling in, they really don't give a darn and never will, so the endless "QQing" really doesn't do anything or help in any real way - you think the devs care? Wake up, stop dreaming, and move on, because they don't care at all as long as they have people paying to win instead of playing what was originally a very enjoyable free-to-play game.

I've heard it at least a hundred times from friends who've left the game: PWI just isn't what it used to be.

Ashivas - Dreamweaver

Aps needs a nerf, not sins. QQ all you want about this, its true. If the max was 3.33 I doubt anyone could solo happy wraith

Empu - Sanctuary

Imo yes sins are OP, in 2 ways : first for the insane chi gain (wether it's aps or skills) that makes them really powerfull pve wise, second for the stealth that gives the ability to use those control skills without a counter option for the target (I don't think the fact a sin has all those control skills, but more the fact you are 100% sure to use it before the opponant. Also the fact a sin can use all short run buffs like tidal just before they actually engage someone).

So yeah, better nerf them. Some friend once gave the idea of stealth consuming chi, so they can't hide all the time and pop with control + spark. Personally, I don't care much about pvp (A few players will always take the fun away for others imo, always been like that in pwi, and any other game I know). But I would like to see sins nerfed for pvp and pve.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

And to Olbaze saying sins are hard in the lower levels you have got to be kidding me. How many classes have you played and quested up? ANY class that is melee was hard in PvE in the early levels. That was probably meant to encourage joining squads and being social.

you got to be kidding me :O I don't know for him, but I lvled all melee classes to at least 70 a normal way (actually played all classes besides mystic a little). Sin is way way way harder then a bm or barb or seeker. On my barb (1st toon) and bm I barely used pots and +50 hp regen apo stuff, while on sin I had too even though I had permanent sage barb buffs and used better gear.

ResMePls - Heavens Tear

Honestly I don't care about nerfing assassins anymore since it wont happen. But what they can do is just revamp older classes so that they can deal with assassins a little better, of course this wont happen either but oh well xD.

Okeano - Harshlands

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

you got to be kidding me :O I don't know for him, but I lvled all melee classes to at least 70 a normal way (actually played all classes besides mystic a little). Sin is way way way harder then a bm or barb or seeker. On my barb (1st toon) and bm I barely used pots and +50 hp regen apo stuff, while on sin I had too even though I had permanent sage barb buffs and used better gear.

BS. My Sin two shotted quest mobs with skills while my BM had to sit there for good 20 seconds per mob tanking the damage.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

S_Swipe - Sanctuary wrote: »

Seeing how everyone and their sister has an alt sin, why bother nerfing them?

I have an alt sin, and I'm in favor of nerfing 100%. b:surrender

I'm really tired of sins popping out of stealth, freezing me and killing me in 1 sec in 3/4 of the rooms in Cube. It has made me stop running Cube for the most part... but I will need it for chrono soon on a couple chars so it isn't really optional.

I'm not a PvPer. But at least I feel I stand a chance if I can see the person... or if they couldn't stun/freeze a person the minute they appeared. As it is, I never even get the chance to defend myself.

Okeano - Harshlands

S_Swipe - Sanctuary wrote: »

Seeing how everyone and their sister has an alt sin, why bother nerfing them?

Exactly. If anything Sin needs a buff because that'll just benefit everyone!

Spi - Raging Tide

thumbs wrote: »

A) Their dmg is almost entirely physical
To be effective; they have to use crappy LA and -int armor
C) They pay far more for -int than other classes
D) They need cleric buffs or pots to do much of anything
E) Other classes get extra defense with their dmg enhancing stat while sins just get better evasion which is almost worthless
F) It takes them forever to level past 100 because they skip all mobs and just kill bosses

A) This is a downside?
they can also use HA and still do noticeable more dmg then other melees
C) this is so last year that they need to pay that much more than other classes
D) so do other classes
E) lol. Tidal Protection, Bloodpaint, Deaden Nerves... and more. yea totally crappy skills
F) My Sin can get millions of exp in a very short amount of time, my BM not.

Dylena - Raging Tide

Alright, lets make it easy. You know something is wrong when 99% of the community has a sin as their alt for either farming or PKing. There is a reason why people joke about "All a sin needs is demon spark and auto attack".

You can even be a complete fool and face roll play a sin, it has been proven with several players in PVP/PVE.

Vinnies - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If everything was balanced, I think there wouldn't be much fun in an MMO tbh.

....I see what you did there, your quite the troll...almost believed you there for a second. /sarcasm

Yuna_Sama - Heavens Tear

As long as it doesn't involve my suportive PvE sin... I like the buff and debuffs sins have in PvE and instances... When used well they realy help a lot... But hearing all the complains and the fact that a lot of ppl have sins to make them OP... If the nerfing is for PvP or being the only class that can solo stuff then by all means go ahead... b:pleased

Empu - Sanctuary

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

BS. My Sin two shotted quest mobs with skills while my BM had to sit there for good 20 seconds per mob tanking the damage.

Yes, and in those 2 hits you loose half your hp and mp making you pot constantly (cause the hp/mp regen rate is so horrible that meditation won't work at all). While a bm or barb can do an entire quests with no pots and get mp/hp back while turning in. Not to mention that you won't have to take mobs aside on a HA melee class. Sin is the only melee class that can actually get killed by a mob below 60s.

I found till 59 a cakewalk on my barb, bm (both before bh and shiit, so I did quest with them) and seeker, while on sin the normal quests were horribly frustrating.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

I don't know what you're talking about... I found leveling my sin to 80 extremely easy.



Only took an hour of FCC. My archer had a much harder time leveling.

Empu - Sanctuary

Sure, if you find it easier to lvl an archer to 100+ just to get a sin to 80 in 1h... Do you want me to say now you are noob cause I can get my archer to 80 within 1h and act like it's a relevant comment? (sorry, I was always under the impression you weren't just a mindless troll, but you prooved me wrong here.)

It was about "playing" a sin at lower lvls, not about lvling. Powerlvling is same for any class, duh.

Macrocan - Heavens Tear

easy suggestion to those that QQ about sin's, make one. take the time to lvl it and gear it and maybe u won't cry so much then

VoItaire - Harshlands

Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »

As for solving them: any nerf that people have in mind to solve the PvP aspect should only affect the PvP side. Because really, if you make an assassin able to use Stealth for 20 seconds, it's useless in PvE. If you make them unable to attack from Stealth, it's useless again. If you remove the spark from Shadow Escape, it's also kinda useless, because some people do use Shadow Escape for the spark. And if you make it cost a spark, it's even more useless.

So what if sins get a useless skill or two? It's not like a lot of the other classes don't have them...

Cytte - Harshlands wrote: »

and mystics, my only quarrel is they get summons AND a pvp enabled knock-back and I don't see why a class that has something tanking damage for them gets a knock-back. I mean Venos don't have a one, why? because pets take the damage, mystics have summons that take the damage for them so its unnecessary for them to also get a knock-back. And wizzies and archers don't get their knock-back pvp enabled

Um... mystic pets aren't like veno pets, they're incredibly squishy and you really only use them for tanking at the lower lvls, after those they're really just DD. And we kinda need that knockback skill. We don't have a distance shrink or psy will, so it's wanna of the few ways we can keep melees from hurting us long enough to do some serious dmg.

And honestly, I hardly ever use devil in pvp anymore unless it's for some cleric or mage, or if it's group pvp(and even then, only sometimes). Assassins basically force you to use salvation, and storm is more worth using than devil most of the time because her extra dmg + 3 second seal > just the devil's stun.

But really, sins NEED to be nerfed. It's crazy, they have a skill that can counter pretty much anything. There is literally nothing an arcane(besides psychic) can do against an assassin that actually KNOWS wth they're doing. They have an effective counter for all of your defenses with just their skills, before their own genie is added into the equation.

Vinnies - Dreamweaver

Dylena - Raging Tide wrote: »

....I see what you did there, your quite the troll...almost believed you there for a second. /sarcasm

I'm not a troll , just saying that not everything should be balanced. Though I don't imply that it needs to be way off balance. Sin's are indeed easy to play. And like said before, level a sin do some facerolling and voila, you've just PK'd someone.

This is the main reason I'm starting another toon. I want a challange, don't feel like facerolling all day b:victory

Joshcja - Sanctuary

leveled my sin to 66 on quests alone, used the stash pots and thats about it. Everyone just life powders till they geat a heal skill and with the sins wonderfully Op low level damage killing was quick and easy, my damn barb died more. At 60 with BP 2 spark and a sexy -.2 + wind sheild the game becomes complete easy mode. No really last time I got bored I got buffs and went to solo bh 51, at 6x. Its like pwi on easy mode if your even 1/2 competent.

EmperiousDX - Archosaur

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cytte - Harshlands View Post
and mystics, my only quarrel is they get summons AND a pvp enabled knock-back and I don't see why a class that has something tanking damage for them gets a knock-back. I mean Venos don't have a one, why? because pets take the damage, mystics have summons that take the damage for them so its unnecessary for them to also get a knock-back. And wizzies and archers don't get their knock-back pvp enabled

Mystic summons are not for fighting like a venos. Mystic summons can barely survive in pvp, and can't tank to save their lives. They are meant almost solely for sacrificing with energy leach and gaining temporary buffs. Knockback for a mystic is like distance shrink for wizzies, gives us a bit more time. The one thing they should actually fix for mystic is un-nerfing Absorb Soul in PvP. b:scorn

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Empu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sure, if you find it easier to lvl an archer to 100+ just to get a sin to 80 in 1h... Do you want me to say now you are noob cause I can get my archer to 80 within 1h and act like it's a relevant comment? (sorry, I was always under the impression you weren't just a mindless troll, but you prooved me wrong here.)

It was about "playing" a sin at lower lvls, not about lvling. Powerlvling is same for any class, duh.

I'm pointing out how silly any balance argument is that is based on low-level play. You're basically trying to "Sin is only good at high level but they deserve it since low level is tough".

Low-level play can be entirely skipped and is entirely irrelevant to class balance.

VoItaire - Harshlands

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'm pointing out how silly any balance argument is that is based on low-level play. You're basically trying to "Sin is only good at high level but they deserve it since low level is tough".

Low-level play can be entirely skipped and is entirely irrelevant to class balance.

↑This, also wizzies have it hard at lowers lvls too, so I guess by the logic of whoever said sins deserve to be op at high lvl because they had it bad at lower lvls, wizzies should be made ridiculously OP as well :S

Cytte - Harshlands

VoItaire - Harshlands wrote: »

Um... mystic pets aren't like veno pets, they're incredibly squishy and you really only use them for tanking at the lower lvls, after those they're really just DD. And we kinda need that knockback skill. We don't have a distance shrink or psy will, so it's wanna of the few ways we can keep melees from hurting us long enough to do some serious dmg.

And honestly, I hardly ever use devil in pvp anymore unless it's for some cleric or mage, or if it's group pvp(and even then, only sometimes). Assassins basically force you to use salvation, and storm is more worth using than devil most of the time because her extra dmg + 3 second seal > just the devil's stun.

Venos also have pets on the squishier side, it just means a bit more focus on pet healing rather than DD, or do a huge amount of damage in a short time and heal after. And even then their pet heal is shorter by a marveling 1.5 seconds. You can actually out heal a lot more damage than venos because (at lvl 1 of both skills) in the 7.8 seconds it takes to heal their pet twice, mystics heal their summons 4 times. And at lvl 10 they've healed it twice while venos only once. And they heal for the same, the description only changes 1 word, pet-summon (assuming same gear)

EmperiousDX - Archosaur wrote: »

Quote:


Mystic summons are not for fighting like a venos. Mystic summons can barely survive in pvp, and can't tank to save their lives. They are meant almost solely for sacrificing with energy leach and gaining temporary buffs. Knockback for a mystic is like distance shrink for wizzies, gives us a bit more time. The one thing they should actually fix for mystic is un-nerfing Absorb Soul in PvP. b:scorn

More time? you can easily have 3 things attacking someone once you've seen them, not mentioning the ability to blow them up too


Now about knockback, Mystics are like the defensive mix of veno/cler/(and some say wizzie), i.e. they heal, have a summon, and can hit pretty hard. Now does a cleric have a knockback? no. because they can out heal most damage but cant attack when doing so, and only later do they get a CC skill. Do venos get one? No because the have a pet taking damage, and can DD beside them both melee and magical. Do wizzies get a knock back? Yes because they have the whole glass cannon thing going for them, and that push means at least 1 more hit to kill before getting hit.
Now putt these classes in a pot and mix it all together, and you get the mystic a class that can heal at (arguably) the same rate as a cler, has a summon (and can heal it at a greater rate than a veno), and deals both physical and magical damage, and...whats this...has a pvp enabled knock back....where did that come in?
See what I'm getting at?

And lets not leave out the other glass cannon, Archers, whose stun lock only lasts from 8 - 11 seconds (depending on skill lvl), now putting in channel/cast times to get the 2 skills off, and the attack rate of their weapons, they get roughly 6-7 shots of if they only use those 2 skills, (frost arrow is a non-factor because anyone with a brain would sprint/holy path after its cast) and lets not forget should they not kill their opponent with that, their opponent would most likely be in the 1/2 attack zone, beating up the archer.
See why mystics knock back should either not exist, not work in pvp, or all knock back skills should be enabled in pvp?


Edit:I know nothing of absorb soul so i have no comment on its un-nerfing.
/walloftext

Barunaa - Heavens Tear

ppl still QQing bout sins? how long has it been now? you guys are lucky that this game hasnt released a melee class with a skill to one hit 100% of the ppl in the game yet.

YET that is.

but i wont be totally biased with sins. the main problem i see with sins is that they can perma stealth. most games u can only be invisible for a few seconds then its on a long cooldown. in this game tho its based on mana and as a result u can be permed invisible for as long as u have mana.

so either the mana burn should be SIGNIFICANLY larger then it is or make it to where ur only stealthed for about 20 -30 seconds with a 1-2minute cool down.

Cytte - Harshlands

Barunaa - Heavens Tear wrote: »

ppl still QQing bout sins? how long has it been now? you guys are lucky that this game hasnt released a melee class with a skill to one hit 100% of the ppl in the game yet.

I (wouldnt call it QQing) would say that its been how long? and people are still dissatisfied about them, maybe PWE should take a hint and do something. How many people have left due to packs? How many people have left due to the Tideborn? They could actually get those players back should they do some changes in their managment. I admit I Csed (though only lightly for vanity items and a faster flyer) pre-aniversary, then after I swore not to till they started making positive changes to the game. I believe is they stop looking for ways to make money and start making positive changes to the game, profit will come to them.

They have, its called a R9 sage sin w/ sage CotD b:shocked

Okeano - Harshlands

Cytte - Harshlands wrote: »

They have, its called a R9 sin w/ CotD b:shocked

Fixed.

VoItaire - Harshlands

Cytte - Harshlands wrote: »

Venos also have pets on the squishier side, it just means a bit more focus on pet healing rather than DD, or do a huge amount of damage in a short time and heal after. And even then their pet heal is shorter by a marveling 1.5 seconds. You can actually out heal a lot more damage than venos because (at lvl 1 of both skills) in the 7.8 seconds it takes to heal their pet twice, mystics heal their summons 4 times. And at lvl 10 they've healed it twice while venos only once. And they heal for the same, the description only changes 1 word, pet-summon (assuming same gear)

More time? you can easily have 3 things attacking someone once you've seen them, not mentioning the ability to blow them up too


Now about knockback, Mystics are like the defensive mix of veno/cler/(and some say wizzie), i.e. they heal, have a summon, and can hit pretty hard. Now does a cleric have a knockback? no. because they can out heal most damage but cant attack when doing so, and only later do they get a CC skill. Do venos get one? No because the have a pet taking damage, and can DD beside them both melee and magical. Do wizzies get a knock back? Yes because they have the whole glass cannon thing going for them, and that push means at least 1 more hit to kill before getting hit.
Now putt these classes in a pot and mix it all together, and you get the mystic a class that can heal at (arguably) the same rate as a cler, has a summon (and can heal it at a greater rate than a veno), and deals both physical and magical damage, and...whats this...has a pvp enabled knock back....where did that come in?
See what I'm getting at?

And lets not leave out the other glass cannon, Archers, whose stun lock only lasts from 8 - 11 seconds (depending on skill lvl), now putting in channel/cast times to get the 2 skills off, and the attack rate of their weapons, they get roughly 6-7 shots of if they only use those 2 skills, (frost arrow is a non-factor because anyone with a brain would sprint/holy path after its cast) and lets not forget should they not kill their opponent with that, their opponent would most likely be in the 1/2 attack zone, beating up the archer.
See why mystics knock back should either not exist, not work in pvp, or all knock back skills should be enabled in pvp?


Edit:I know nothing of absorb soul so i have no comment on its un-nerfing.
/walloftext

Again, mystic pets are NOT made for tanking, they're just extra DD to make up for lack of high dmg attack skills. They aren't built for tanking, sure, you can spam heal it faster, but if it doesn't have the hp or defense to survive two hits from a boss, it's not very safe, especially if the boss aoes.

Mystics have a PvP enabled knockback because they NEED it as a way to fend off melee attackers. Wizzies have distance shrink, clerics have plume shell and their debuffs, venos have their insane speed for kiting, not to mention an instant cast anti stun if demon, archers have natural speed, evasion(although that one probably doesn't mean so much),and well, idk I don't play archer, psys have psy will, as well as some control skills.

A knockback skill for clerics would be nice, but they don't really need it. And in actual pvp no one is going to go for the summon(except maybe devil cause the stun is a threat).

Lyritha - Heavens Tear

nope nope I like my sin as is... if they're going to do anything about sins it should be an update to all classes including assassins that doesn't subtract but instead add content.