Nerfing Sins

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HeavyMyst - Raging Tide
HeavyMyst - Raging Tide Posts: 9 Arc User
edited July 2011 in General Discussion
Simple question, I just wanted to get an overall poll on it. Don't troll, it's just a question.
Post edited by HeavyMyst - Raging Tide on
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  • Allondria - Archosaur
    Allondria - Archosaur Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    I don't see why people complain so much (Not that you are, just people in general I suppose) about certain classes. It's always been something with Sins and now with Mystics. If you don't like the game then become a game developer and make a better one or quit because no one really cares... Every class has advantages and disadvantages. If everyone was even, how fun would the game be? It wouldn't. I voted it doesn't affect me, because it doesn't drastically, but really, they should remain the same and people need to stop QQing all over the place about stuff they can't change and grow up a little.
  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    ... It's not that Assassins themselves have something that makes them OP. This is kinda evident in the fact that they kinda suck at lower levels.

    It's the gear that's the problem. The high DPH, high DPS, high defenses, high life that the boutique-given gear gives is what screws up things. Then again, when you have people soloing group instances, that should pretty much tell that the gear is far too good. Because it's not just the sins that are doing it: BMs and Barbs and Archers do it too. And they've all remained pretty much unchanged from the pre-Tideborn era to today. And two years ago, if anyone suggested soloing 3-3, they'd get laughed at. Exactly because the standard of gear back then was much, much lower.

    As for Assassins using stealth in PvE to bypass mobs that they'd have to kill otherwise, it's only applicable in a few places, as a lot of instances have mob counters that you have to complete to even think of killing the bosses.

    About 90% of all the complaints about Assassins comes from the PvP part of it. The fact that you don't need to be a highly-skilled or geared assassin to go into stealth and pop a mad combo on some unsuspecting person for an easy kill. And that you can use Shadow Escape to pretty much restart the playing field into a situation that tends to favor the Assassin.

    As for solving them: any nerf that people have in mind to solve the PvP aspect should only affect the PvP side. Because really, if you make an assassin able to use Stealth for 20 seconds, it's useless in PvE. If you make them unable to attack from Stealth, it's useless again. If you remove the spark from Shadow Escape, it's also kinda useless, because some people do use Shadow Escape for the spark. And if you make it cost a spark, it's even more useless.

    As for solving the PvE aspect, it won't matter as people will just re-roll to a BM or an Archer and repeat from where they left with slight adjustments.
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  • Eccii - Raging Tide
    Eccii - Raging Tide Posts: 481 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Whats up with ppl still QQing about sins?
    It's getting old
    Retired on Barb-
    Currently playing mystic-
  • LovesTragedy - Lost City
    LovesTragedy - Lost City Posts: 474 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    As for solving them: any nerf that people have in mind to solve the PvP aspect should only affect the PvP side. Because really, if you make an assassin able to use Stealth for 20 seconds, it's useless in PvE. If you make them unable to attack from Stealth, it's useless again. If you remove the spark from Shadow Escape, it's also kinda useless, because some people do use Shadow Escape for the spark. And if you make it cost a spark, it's even more useless.

    Not all. For example, mystics proved that different rules can apply for attacks in PvP compared to PvE. So something like giving a sin a 5-10 second damage reduction against players after leaving stealth would nerf PvP but not PvE. Note, im not actually suggesting this, just saying that there ARE ways to do one and not the other.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    LovesTragedy - Lost City wrote: »
    Not all. For example, mystics proved that different rules can apply for attacks in PvP compared to PvE. So something like giving a sin a 5-10 second damage reduction against players after leaving stealth would nerf PvP but not PvE. Note, im not actually suggesting this, just saying that there ARE ways to do one and not the other.

    And what makes you think that any sin would use stealth after such a nerf?

    And from there, what makes you think that anyone sane would implement a nerf that would effectively kill off a defining feature of a class? Kinda like having Venos receive the damage that their pet takes or having all of a BMs skills hit cooldown whenever they switch weapons. Or maybe have a cleric's heals not working in PvP?

    Another bad side of all the nerf suggestions: They're all the same. Either they suggest something that would make stealth completely useless in PvP and PvE, or they suggest something that would simply make people not want to use those skills anymore. And that's just not a good way to go about it.

    Besides, look at all of the actual high-end people PvPing. At least on my server it amounts to hanging around on popular PK spots, such as Silver Pool or outside of West Archosaur and pretty much sitting around until someone asks if you want to 1v1 them. And for something like that, you really don't have a purpose for stealth anyway.

    Also, just because there's a group of people who "abuse" the skill in a way that is perceived as unfair to the non-assassin population doesn't mean you have to punish them all. Because really, there are people who use stealth skills rather creatively. And the reasons for that? Primarily the 1 spark you get for using it, secondarily being unable to be targeted.

    But then again, majority of all people don't really give a damn about if someone is perceived as a good PvPer.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
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  • StormHydra - Sanctuary
    StormHydra - Sanctuary Posts: 2,221 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Yeah, Sin gear is the problem.
    APS is what makes sins unbalanced
    EDIT: I'm not really talking about PvE here. My only PvP char is my Wizard and I'd make a massively biased post about sins, being a wizard.

    Its just PWI being greedy as usual.
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Eccii - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Whats up with ppl still QQing about sins?
    It's getting old

    Soo.... if people have been dissatisfied for a long time it means they must be wrong?
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  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    StormHydra - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Yeah, Sin gear is the problem.
    APS is what makes sins overpowered.

    Its just PWI being greedy as usual.

    Well, with APS comes the prospect of high DPS, but it's not always so.

    Meet Full R9 Demon Sin. I also deliberately made it so that it has no -interval at all. Just through the power of R9 and high refines it's got a DPS of 37,800. That isn't quite what a 5 aps BM or Archer would have, but it's still more than the lower ones get.

    And of course, there's the lucky Archers, who get -interval on their R9. With the same principle, meet Full R9 Demon Archer, also with an average DPS of 36,060.

    However, when you look at 5 aps, the Archer falls much, much short of an Assassin for many reasons. It's rather interesting to see that if you actually ignore all -interval and go for R9, you end up with the two being nearly identical.

    Now, if an Archer had the same DPS as an Assassin as a rule, how many people would complain about Assassins at all? I'd say not many, as they'd be too busy complaining that the Archers are killing them before they even get into range.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • JanusZeal - Heavens Tear
    JanusZeal - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,852 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Personally, I don't care if they nerfed sins or not (to me this sort of thing is the least of concerns), although, I'd feel somewhat bitter about how much time I spent farming it for it to be deliberately and overtly "nerfed". I'd immediately start beefing up my BM and refining her stuff a bit more, until someone comes along and QQ's about them too.. again, pushing for them to be nerfed.
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Olbaze - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Now, if an Archer had the same DPS as an Assassin as a rule, how many people would complain about Assassins at all? I'd say not many, as they'd be too busy complaining that the Archers are killing them before they even get into range.

    Why not just make up a hypothetical class with 10 aps and 50 meter range so that sins seem even weaker in comparison?
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  • Olbaze - Sanctuary
    Olbaze - Sanctuary Posts: 4,242 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Why not just make up a hypothetical class with 10 aps and 50 meter range so that sins seem even weaker in comparison?

    ... I'm not quite sure which approach I should take to your post.

    On one hand, you're kinda in a weird stance, being one of those R9 Archers.

    On the other, I was simply proposing an interesting idea. Because I was honestly quite surprised to see how close the two came.
    I am Olba. Not Ol, not Baze nor Blaze. And even less would I go by Olblaze. Please, take a second to read a person's username.
    If you see b:cute be sure to take a second, calm look at anything I said.
  • lyonitus
    lyonitus Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    I don't care much about sins, but it would be nice if they would do a little revamp on the pre-tideborn races to bring them up to speed.
  • Chioke - Lost City
    Chioke - Lost City Posts: 38 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Don't nerf sins I'm gunna make one on the new PvP server for fun :-)
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  • Dylena - Raging Tide
    Dylena - Raging Tide Posts: 1,416 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    You do forget that sins are (always) attack a person sparked with 2x spark to be able to stun or 3x spark with occult ice. To make your calc more accurate you would have to add the sparks to the sin. In another note, zerk = double damage, double damage+crit damage = win win? Sins don't really need all the aps in PVP to be pro, they have enough stuns to keep a person still forever and the damage to finish a person off in a few seconds.


    Archer
    http://pwcalc.com/05e5ea4f8cabb515

    2x sparked sin
    http://pwcalc.com/93d7d82341cff350

    3x sparked demon sin
    http://pwcalc.com/93d7d82341cff350

    Also was kinda curious, you give the characters lunar nirvana cape, you give them R9 full set and PQ3 ring but why do you give them that tome? lol
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    The issues with sins are mainly

    A. they're almost totaly imune to control skills
    B. they have every control skill in game
    C. They have the highest damage in game
    D. Stealth, aka portable safe zone

    One of these issues would make them a powerfull yet balanced class.
    Two would make them overpowerd but noth enough to be altered
    Three and the other classes go "wtf?"
    Ny the fourth add on everyone just rerolls the class because nobody stands a chance against this class if played corectly
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Vitenka - Dreamweaver
    Vitenka - Dreamweaver Posts: 4,125 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    People are still complaining, because the problem still isn't fixed.

    Now there's an alternative that hasn't been discussed. Neuter them!
  • QueenOfNukes - Heavens Tear
    QueenOfNukes - Heavens Tear Posts: 98 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    My only complaint about sins would be that quite a number refuse to learn their class. A lot don't even know that they have an AOE skill, or the mechanics of heal aggro. I've squadded with some really ubernoob sins and it's just sad.

    As for sins being OP-ed, I don't know. I love my cleric, I can't imagine being a sin. My aim is to be R9 and just continue doing what I do.

    But that's just me. Naturally I voted for "it doesn't bother me".
    "Beware of the Queen, she'll nuke our heads off if we don't listen to her. b:surrender" - Devereaux

    QueenOfNukes was created on 16th June 2011.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Some of you are clearly really inexperienced in PvP to be talking about class balance. I'm not saying I'm any good, but at least I know enough to not think Sins are overpowered because of gear alone.

    Almost every attack skill comes with a disable or much higher chi gain, ****ing stupid. Sins can lock a target down as well as BMs can, except they have no trouble actually reaching their target. I'm not saying stealth itself is OP (well the skill is cuz you get a spark from it wtf) A class that can stealth is like a class that can kite, it serves the same purpose. I'm just saying if any class can decide freely when to hit and when to run, that class shouldn't have disables that are as long as BMs'.

    Did I mention the chi gain? That's just stupid. Tidal Protection is just stupidly OP...

    And to Olbaze saying sins are hard in the lower levels you have got to be kidding me. How many classes have you played and quested up? ANY class that is melee was hard in PvE in the early levels. That was probably meant to encourage joining squads and being social.

    Sleep, bleed, seal, freeze, attack speed debuff, decent skill damage adds and the option to use bows - this has got to be some sort of a stupid joke. Play a BM or barb through the 5x levels with the kiting magic mobs, and then tell me sins are hard to play...with that stupid chi gain too lmao...
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    You forgot rage damage.

    What idiot developer thought it would be a good idea to have rage damage on top of a high-crit dex class and then give that class a class-exclusive 5.0 zerk weapon? Just for kicks add the +30 attack level buff.

    Of course that class also needs an 8 second stun.. and a 7 second stun.. and a 9s paralyze.. and sleep... hmm anything else they dont have.... seal? Let's give them that too!

    On top of that they get the strongest defensive skills in the game.. tidal protection, focus mind, deaden nerves.

    On top of that add more chi skills than any other class.

    It gets obscene and that's before even getting to how ridiculous stealth is.

    I have a sin and it was just stupidly easy to kill anyone even if they had far better gear and my sin doesn't even have any of the demon skills.

    It is just a terribly designed class people should be ashamed of playing. I can't stand mine.
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  • Vedovis - Lost City
    Vedovis - Lost City Posts: 942 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The issues with sins are mainly

    A. they're almost totaly imune to control skills
    B. they have every control skill in game
    C. They have the highest damage in game
    D. Stealth, aka portable safe zone

    One of these issues would make them a powerfull yet balanced class.
    Two would make them overpowerd but noth enough to be altered
    Three and the other classes go "wtf?"
    Ny the fourth add on everyone just rerolls the class because nobody stands a chance against this class if played corectly

    Quoted for truth. I've only ever gotten my veno up to a 'high' level so to speak, so I can't speak from excessive experience, but most classes don't get many stuns/seals/freezes etc. From what I can recall, I have maybe four? (including my nix) Lucky Scarab (which stuns for only like 2 seconds anyway) Stunning Blow (I miss half the time, dang foxform skill) Parasitic Nova (<3 sexy two spark skill, but again not 100% reliable) and Pounce from my nix, which is by far the most reliable :<

    Anyway, my point being it's hard for other classes to have at least three of those attributes mentioned in the quoted post. Hell, I'd love if it I could stealth too, would make TTs even quicker <3
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  • Cytte - Harshlands
    Cytte - Harshlands Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Dylena - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Sins don't really need all the aps in PVP to be pro, they have enough stuns to keep a person still forever and the damage to finish a person off in a few seconds.

    This is why the need to be nerfed. they have enough CC skills to keep anyone still, and then a bunch more, which are also the longest lasting of any class. They have the ability to make 250 (or more I can't remember) chi every 30 seconds, not factoring auto attacks. A personal safezone, 25% (33% if sage) chance to reduce dmg to 1 and 50% (66% if sage) chance to avoid stuns.

    SO yes they need to be nerfed.

    Allondria - Archosaur wrote: »
    \Every class has advantages and disadvantages. If everyone was even, how fun would the game be? It wouldn't.
    Yes, but its also that classes pre-tideborn expansion had that feeling of rock paper scissors,
    then the fish came out and that feeling was lost because you could honestly not know how to play this game and still wreck other classes, should you be a good player behind a sin, nothing short of a gm (or a ridiculous number of players ganking you at once...or maybe a smart +12 r9 psy) could stop you.

    and mystics, my only quarrel is they get summons AND a pvp enabled knock-back and I don't see why a class that has something tanking damage for them gets a knock-back. I mean Venos don't have a one, why? because pets take the damage, mystics have summons that take the damage for them so its unnecessary for them to also get a knock-back. And wizzies and archers don't get their knock-back pvp enabled

    Edit: had to quote this for truth
    (speaking of sins in case you missed it)
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    It is just a terribly designed class people should be ashamed of playing. I can't stand mine.
    I <3 A lot of people
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    I imagine knockback not being enabled in PvP was a balance thing, when open PvP in the air was more prevalent. Good luck getting close to a kiting class that also knocks you back in the air as a melee...

    The new devs seem to have missed that detail...well at least it costs chi...
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    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
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    Qui: b:dirty
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I imagine knockback not being enabled in PvP was a balance thing, when open PvP in the air was more prevalent. Good luck getting close to a kiting class that also knocks you back in the air as a melee...

    The new devs seem to have missed that detail...well at least it costs chi...

    Mystics are by far the easiest class to close on in game for me. the KB has a longish cast time and a long *** cooldown. combine this with the squishyness of the pet (their only real stun) and a soulcleanse orb to break thicket and its almost impossible for a mystic to fend off a mele.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Cytte - Harshlands
    Cytte - Harshlands Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Mystics are by far the easiest class to close on in game for me. the KB has a longish cast time and a long *** cooldown. combine this with the squishyness of the pet (their only real stun) and a soulcleanse orb to break thicket and its almost impossible for a mystic to fend off a mele.

    the Bramble Tornado takes the same amount of time to finish as Will of the Pheonix does, (arguably shorter with -chan gear as the cast for bramble is .5 sec as opposed to 1sec for will) and I easily get Will off if someone gets close enough before I use DS. Though yes the cooldown is on the longer side,

    Though I would guess the mystic isn't doing something right if they cant fend off a melee b:shocked
    I <3 A lot of people
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Cytte - Harshlands wrote: »
    the Bramble Tornado takes the same amount of time to finish as Will of the Pheonix does, (arguably shorter with -chan gear as the cast for bramble is .5 sec as opposed to 1sec for will) and I easily get Will off if someone gets close enough before I use DS. Though yes the cooldown is on the longer side,

    Though I would guess the mystic isn't doing something right if they cant fend off a melee b:shocked

    they have 1 stun on a pet, OI works through seal, thicket is easy to break out of.

    Unless the mystic is running non stop for its life on a max speed accelrated flyer its not hard to catch em. By running for their life I mean not stoping for skill use at all.

    Seriously its not like pauseing every once in a while for tornado will kill somone they would need to follow up and mystics jsut dont have the skills to pin somone down.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Cytte - Harshlands
    Cytte - Harshlands Posts: 1,044 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    they have 1 stun on a pet, OI works through seal, thicket is easy to break out of.

    Unless the mystic is running non stop for its life on a max speed accelrated flyer its not hard to catch em. By running for their life I mean not stoping for skill use at all.

    Seriously its not like pauseing every once in a while for tornado will kill somone they would need to follow up and mystics jsut dont have the skills to pin somone down.

    At least they have a stun. JS

    Now I haven't played a mystic so im not sure if it works like this b:surrender but wouldn't
    Bramble>plant>send in summon>attack/gtfo
    be a viable pvp option

    also when I said fend off I mean it as holding their own in a fight for longer than 2 seconds
    I <3 A lot of people
  • Shadowvzs - Lost City
    Shadowvzs - Lost City Posts: 877 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    i think that pvp sin nerf thing is easily fixable if they put a apoc. potion with 30min min stealth detection (30min like a non aoe lv10 cleric buff).

    maybe some ppl say its long but u lose if u die and also a bit got cost during long fight or group fight, so mostly this work in 1vs1 situations.
  • WizardCraft - Harshlands
    WizardCraft - Harshlands Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You forgot rage damage.

    What idiot developer thought it would be a good idea to have rage damage on top of a high-crit dex class and then give that class a class-exclusive 5.0 zerk weapon? Just for kicks add the +30 attack level buff.

    Of course that class also needs an 8 second stun.. and a 7 second stun.. and a 9s paralyze.. and sleep... hmm anything else they dont have.... seal? Let's give them that too!

    On top of that they get the strongest defensive skills in the game.. tidal protection, focus mind, deaden nerves.

    On top of that add more chi skills than any other class.

    It gets obscene and that's before even getting to how ridiculous stealth is.

    I have a sin and it was just stupidly easy to kill anyone even if they had far better gear and my sin doesn't even have any of the demon skills.

    It is just a terribly designed class people should be ashamed of playing. I can't stand mine.

    There is no shame in playing an Assassin , leveling off of dragoons however ...
  • Vinnies - Dreamweaver
    Vinnies - Dreamweaver Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You forgot rage damage.

    What idiot developer thought it would be a good idea to have rage damage on top of a high-crit dex class and then give that class a class-exclusive 5.0 zerk weapon? Just for kicks add the +30 attack level buff.

    Of course that class also needs an 8 second stun.. and a 7 second stun.. and a 9s paralyze.. and sleep... hmm anything else they dont have.... seal? Let's give them that too!

    On top of that they get the strongest defensive skills in the game.. tidal protection, focus mind, deaden nerves.

    On top of that add more chi skills than any other class.

    It gets obscene and that's before even getting to how ridiculous stealth is.

    I have a sin and it was just stupidly easy to kill anyone even if they had far better gear and my sin doesn't even have any of the demon skills.

    It is just a terribly designed class people should be ashamed of playing. I can't stand mine.

    I can agree with your criticism, but I for one love the Sin. Not because of his ability to kill people in a second. Not everyone plays the class because they want to PK someone in a short amount of time.

    Terribly designed? No.. The idea behind an sin is great. Maybe it's OP but still.. If everything was balanced, I think there wouldn't be much fun in an MMO tbh.
  • S_Swipe - Sanctuary
    S_Swipe - Sanctuary Posts: 119 Arc User
    edited July 2011
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    Seeing how everyone and their sister has an alt sin, why bother nerfing them?

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