Sage and Demon (Yes this again)

Fleuri - Sanctuary · April 2011

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

In tw kills/deaths dont matter.. You can pew pew anyone from the sides and they wont notice, I done it many times. Its also laggy and people wont have time to react as in open PVP. Tw is like the worst moment to show off that you kill people cause of range.

So, ok, I totally agree with your logic, here: In the same way that tw defense means nothing, sage range means nothing.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

The range is useful from time to time, Like aimlow a bm before they get to close.. but still most classes have a way to get close to you or away. The range shouldnt be a factor of why you pick sage/demon. Range is pretty much useless if you compare it to atack speed. I had rather hit faster than have 2 meters. Quickshots will always shine against heaven.

Ok, I totally get that you like demon quickshot. I understand that, and it's a nice skill.

But I do not understand the rest of your paragraph here. Blademasters are probably the class where sage range makes the least difference.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

4.5 Stun can be useful but most of the time, you wont even notice that second. Its almost nothing.

Is this another one of your "in the same way that tw defense means nothing" arguments?

Sage stun gives me time for an extra shot, which is usually enough to kill that wizard with his 15k pdef.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

P.s. Use Faith + White genie first skill. Thats all you need to max your range or dont get caught up to easy.

Fortunately for me, most people I have used my sage range stunts on have your level of clue about what I am doing.

(And sage range also has some nice benefits in pve, though those are relatively rare. I think demon quickshot has higher benefit in pve, even with its unreliability.)

Agatio - Harshlands · April 2011

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

You can also check out this 46 page thread which contains various opinions on culti. Unfortunately most of the good discussion is early in the thread and is over two years old but it still applies in many ways as the basics of an archer has never changed.

What has changed is that now every archer has rank 8, many have rank 9 and attack speed doesn't matter that much, as it used to, because in pvp robes are 2 hits anyway. For me quickshot was the biggest demon advantage over sage, but if we will exclude this skill we would see, that both demon and sage are very balanced.
In pve sage archer is better than demon by far if both have 5 aps, because he can basically tank anything.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear · April 2011

Agatio - Harshlands wrote: »

What has changed is that now every archer has rank 8, many have rank 9 and attack speed doesn't matter that much, as it used to, because in pvp robes are 2 hits anyway. For me quickshot was the biggest demon advantage over sage, but if we will exclude this skill we would see, that both demon and sage are very balanced.
In pve sage archer is better than demon by far if both have 5 aps, because he can basically tank anything.

Oh really? How exactly does having R8 or R9 make attack speed less valuable than before? I would argue that better gear makes attack speed MORE valuable so you can proc those crits more. You also forget that "robes" have rank gear and high refines too and only the mediocre geared ones are "2 hits." Demon advantage isn't just quickshot by the way, and you're silly if you actually think that.

In PVE sage archers can indeed tank better but you again forgot to mention that it is much more expensive to reach 5.0 as a sage, not to mention whether you can tank ANYTHING depends on your gear, not your cultivation.

Do you actually play an archer or are you just trying to pad your post count?

Edit: Nvm I just realized you're from HL.

Agatio - Harshlands · April 2011

Jones' Blessings and rank sales caused than now it's much easier to kill ppl as an archer as they don't need to rely so much on aps and crits. Robes go to low survivability to tank and they die after few hits. Heavies can be beated by metal combo (sage has better metal skills imho).
5 aps as sage archer might be expensive, but not for endgame one, rank 8 is cheap, deicides are cheap, cape is cheap, now need only TT99 light boots, wrists and lionheart's ornaments, nirvana legs, but end game archer has them already.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear · April 2011

Obviously the availability of better gear and attack blessings make life easier when it comes to killing people, but that by no means makes attack speed obsolete.

Also my point is that sage 5 aps costs more, instead of you talking like it costs the same because the only thing you're taking into consideration is the damage reduction. Also has it occurred to you that because demons require less to reach 5 aps, they can wear better ornaments for either damage or survivability, whereas sage 5aps has very little flexibility in choice of gear? Didn't think so.

truekossy · April 2011

That last paragraph sounded rather familiar.....

Gonna have to side with Aesthor on this one. Also gonna have to wonder if Agatio is playing the same PWI we are since, if he's talking about robes being easy kills with no defense, he clearly is talking about robes with **** gear/skills and not the ones who know how to play and have the gear to back themselves up.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · April 2011

Aesthor - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Also my point is that sage 5 aps costs more, instead of you talking like it costs the same because the only thing you're taking into consideration is the damage reduction. Also has it occurred to you that because demons require less to reach 5 aps, they can wear better ornaments for either damage or survivability, whereas sage 5aps has very little flexibility in choice of gear? Didn't think so.

Except I think that some of this argument was from before the days of cheap rank 8.

Here is another side for that argument: You can be sage with 5aps and with whatever ornaments you like if you equip a rank 8 blouse. You do need a -0.1 interval weapon for that.

(But, also, the heals from gornex do not increase your survivability. You cannot rely on them and they do not increase how much damage it takes to one-hit you.. Instead they help cut your costs by an amount comparable to the cost savings of given by sage spark -- but sage spark continues to work if you get g13 or g15 interval fists.)

Then again, if you are really concerned about budget and you are creating a character now, and want 5aps, you should probably make yourself a demon assassin and give the gornex to your assassin. You also should make sure you level up your bloodpaint and do your cultivation quests.

Quilue - Sanctuary · April 2011

A lot of triple buffed Jade-Sharded wizards are still something to take down with just R8 alone. R9 is obviously not within everyone's reach.

Aesthor - Heavens Tear · April 2011

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Except I think that some of this argument was from before the days of cheap rank 8.

Here is another side for that argument: You can be sage with 5aps and with whatever ornaments you like if you equip a rank 8 blouse. You do need a -0.1 interval weapon for that.

(But, also, the heals from gornex do not increase your survivability. You cannot rely on them and they do not increase how much damage it takes to one-hit you.. Instead they help cut your costs by an amount comparable to the cost savings of given by sage spark -- but sage spark continues to work if you get g13 or g15 interval fists.)

Then again, if you are really concerned about budget and you are creating a character now, and want 5aps, you should probably make yourself a demon assassin and give the gornex to your assassin. You also should make sure you level up your bloodpaint and do your cultivation quests.

Even with cheap rank 8 it doesn't change the fact that demons get more flexibility with their equips, now even more so because of the top. My point was he conveniently ignored certain parts of the argument and made his comparisons as though the 25% damage reduction was the only different factor. The statement itself has already be said over and over again among various other threads.

Also his "robes are two shotters" again conveniently assumes that good gear is only easy to obtain for archers and not arcanes. LOL.

TigerLily - Lost City · April 2011

Sage archer is harder to play in PvP than Demon i would say. Specially for 1v1 situations. Its pretty frustrating as Sage since you lack skills designed towards PvP. You cant really kill wellgeared players with just auto shots and at the same time you dont have skills that will bypass their charms. Sure you can kill squishes at half health with Sage Take Aim. But anyone and any class can pull that of easy.

Demon is just way more easy-mode, specially if you have average gear. The crit buff and DPS you get from skills makes it possible to take down people that average geared Sage Archer cant kill.

Of course it also depends of how good of a player you are. If your gaming abilities are average or below average you have to pick Demon lol. If you can keep track of 20 hotkeys in your sleep, have amazing reflexes and do stuff in milliseconds you probably do good with any culti.

For pve culti doesn't matter - all archers have terrible DPS even at 5.0 with fists. Re-roll a sin and make 200% more dmg.

For Pk you should probably re-roll a sin to so you can see all the other 400000000 sins waiting outside Westgate to gank archers.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · April 2011

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

Sage archer is harder to play in PvP than Demon i would say. Specially for 1v1 situations. Its pretty frustrating as Sage since you lack skills designed towards PvP. You cant really kill wellgeared players with just auto shots and at the same time you dont have skills that will bypass their charms. Sure you can kill squishes at half health with Sage Take Aim. But anyone and any class can pull that of easy.

In my experience, a lot of sage archer PvP has to do with locking someone down out of range of their attacks, and wearing them down, unless you are fighting assassins (and seekers will be a problem, also). But you can often arrange for a full charm tick interval where you are able to attack them while taking no damage from them. If that's not enough -- if you cannot consume 10% of their health in a single non-critical-hit attack -- you might need better gear.

ropes782 · May 2011

As I am only a lvl 75 archer, I lack the in-game experience of using sage/demon skills. However, just from skill databases and reading, here is my understanding.

The Demon:
*Spark = +attack speed (good for bursts of damage)
*Quickshot = 50% chance of +attack speed (good for bursts of damage)
*STA = +critical chance (good for initial burst of damage)
*Blazing Arrow = +120% fire damage for 20secs (good for initial burst of damage)
Conclusion = Demon seems like the way to go for PvP and solo PvE as there are many options to get quick bursts of damage. Keep in mind that quickshot has fast recharge/spammable AND with the spark's increased attack speed you gain chi faster to get another spark off, which can also be useful in PvE. However, with the STA and Blazing Arrow INITIAL bursts of damage, you're more likely to steal aggro if you're in a PvE group.
The Demon skills rely more on luck than Sage skills due to better crit chance from passive skills and possible +atk speed from Quickshot.

The Sage:
*STA = reduces max HP by 20% (good for boss battles)
*Blazing Arrow = Sustainable +60% fire damage (good for long battles; less reapplying)
*Bow Mastery = Permanent +90% damage with your bow (keeps damage more consistant as opposed to +crit hit)
*Stormrage Eagleon = sure, it takes 2 sparks...but for 30 secs reduces targets def by 20% (good for group boss battles)
Conclusion = Sage has more consistant damage compared to the Demon. The sage is good for group PvE. Due to dropping the target's hp initially and providing a 30sec debuff to the target, you'll help out your team. And since your increasing your teams damage rather than sparking it up, you're less likely to steal aggro (if that is even a concern at high levels) which makes your party love you more.
It also looks like you can gain free chi when your sitting idle, waiting for party members or something, by using the Wingspan skill and the "Master Li's Technique" to gain 50chi every minute

Summary:
Demon = all-around decent (PvP & PvE); has plenty of guides for it online
Sage = better for group PvE; can be more difficult as there are less guides (can be more expensive which is what I got out of previous posts)

Disclaimer:
By NO means am I suggesting that all Demon archers are better than Sage archers at PvP or PvE or vice versa. I haven't even played a Demon archer OR a Sage archer. I am simply using the facts of the skills to provide a non-biased opinion on this matter.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · May 2011

ropes782 wrote: »

As I am only a lvl 75 archer, I lack the in-game experience of using sage/demon skills. However, just from skill databases and reading, here is my understanding.

As I have only read the first section of this post, I lack the in-depth knowledge of the rest of the post. However, just from the first sentence and reading, here is my understanding:

Read The Life Cycle of an Archer.

ropes782 · May 2011

heh, thanks for the laugh? However, copying what I said into a humorous comment doesn't actually make it relevant in any way to what I said. Unless you are trying to imply that reading through discussions and skills is a bad way to decide which Culti path to go. In which case, the only other option would be to blindly choose Demon or Sage and just reroll if you don't really like it once you've experienced it.

The fact of the matter is that 99% of the posts for this discussion come from people that have made 1 archer and chose only 1 path, which means they have not actually had experience with both paths and is only basing opinions on things they have read.
If you have experienced playing Demon or Sage and can correct any of the points I outlined, go for it, thats why I posted.

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2011

Elena's thread was made way before your comment. BTW, TigerLily has experienced both Sage and Demon.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · May 2011

ropes782 wrote: »

However, copying what I said into a humorous comment doesn't actually make it relevant in any way to what I said.

For relevance, read "Level 40-49" and "85-89" of The Life Cycle of an Archer.

ropes782 · May 2011

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Elena's thread was made way before your comment. BTW, TigerLily has experienced both Sage and Demon.

Yep, I know that thread was made in 2009, I saw that. Thats a completely different thread though. I was simply referring to Elena's COMMENT that was posted 15 minutes AFTER mine. (note, i said "copying what I said into a humorous comment"; at no point in that long thread from 2009 could he have copied me...and I don't see how that could have been mistaken)

And yes, TigerLily would fall into that 1% of people that has done both paths. I read his/her comments in the other threads already.

_Ghostz_ - Archosaur · May 2011

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, pleaseeeeee tell me that you're not trying to tell me for PVP, Sage>Demon... Pleaseee.

The essence of an archer is: Crit, Dodge, and and High Damage. Now lets look at the skills

Crit: Demon has Stunning arrow and Sharpen Tooth. Both increasing your crit by 10%+....Omg Really?

Dodging: Demon WOP Gives you perminate higher evasion and speed?... Really?

And last but not least damage

Now this should be a no brainer but people like to argue DPH for Archers...

You could either have A.) A higher overall Damage index due to DPS as well as Higher crit, Spike damage (Blazin Arrow Spam) as well as an attack Guarenteed not to miss (Lightning Strike) Or you can Have B.) Higher base damage index + Better DPH skills (AKA metal attacks and Charged arrow which was garbage to begin with)...

Most peoples choice is a No brainer, but its up to you to decide

Ezehc - Lost City · May 2011

demon is slightly better for pvp I think.
sage is way better for pve.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · May 2011

_Ghostz_ - Archosaur wrote: »

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, pleaseeeeee tell me that you're not trying to tell me for PVP, Sage>Demon... Pleaseee.

The essence of an archer is: Crit, Dodge, and and High Damage. Now lets look at the skills

Crit: Demon has Stunning arrow and Sharpen Tooth. Both increasing your crit by 10%+....Omg Really?

Dodging: Demon WOP Gives you perminate higher evasion and speed?... Really?

And last but not least damage

Now this should be a no brainer but people like to argue DPH for Archers...

You could either have A.) A higher overall Damage index due to DPS as well as Higher crit, Spike damage (Blazin Arrow Spam) as well as an attack Guarenteed not to miss (Lightning Strike) Or you can Have B.) Higher base damage index + Better DPH skills (AKA metal attacks and Charged arrow which was garbage to begin with)...

Most peoples choice is a No brainer, but its up to you to decide

OMG, I love saying this, so very much: I do not think you are thinking things through!

So, ok, some issues to consider include: when would the damage be delivered, and what other things can archers do that you have ignored?

From my point of view, demons have a sustained DPS advantage over sage, but sages DPS starts earlier and initiative can be a big deal sometimes. Meanwhile, sages do have a higher potential DPH than demons but over the long run demons have a higher average DPH than sage, though sages in some circumstances have a higher effective average DPH than demon.

All of this matters, based on ratio of damage to health of opponent, and a few other things. But when you are fighting someone with a charm, DPH can be a major issue. Then again, depending on opponent health, this is not a one-sided sage advantage because of demon increased crit chances.

But this was ignoring control skills, and was also ignoring survival tactics (which, again, will not a one sided advantage for either one until after you have picked a specific plan of battle).

But, anyways, for an opponent in the right health range can be killed by sage before demon ramps up with their short turn buffs. This makes for different tactical choices and has some other implications.

On the other hand, if you want to be a one trick pony, I imagine life becomes much simpler for you.

angellicdeity · May 2011

(+) Demon Lightning Strike
NEVER MISSES

(+) Demon Quickshot
50% chance to increase attack rate

(+) Demon Stunning Arrow
+10% critical rate

(+) Demon Sharpened Tooth
+10% critical rate

(+) Demon Barrage of Arrows
-0.5 seconds inbetween intervals

(+) Demon Thundershock
10% to seal + immobilize for 3 seconds

Pretty much all your going to use in TW... So just ask yourself if TW is what your building your archer for.

Vindis - Dreamweaver · May 2011

ropes782 wrote: »

As I am only a lvl 75 archer, I lack the in-game experience of using sage/demon skills. However, just from skill databases and reading, here is my understanding.

The Demon:
*Spark = +attack speed (good for bursts of damage)
*Quickshot = 50% chance of +attack speed (good for bursts of damage)
*STA = +critical chance (good for initial burst of damage)
*Blazing Arrow = +120% fire damage for 20secs (good for initial burst of damage)
Conclusion = Demon seems like the way to go for PvP and solo PvE as there are many options to get quick bursts of damage. Keep in mind that quickshot has fast recharge/spammable AND with the spark's increased attack speed you gain chi faster to get another spark off, which can also be useful in PvE. However, with the STA and Blazing Arrow INITIAL bursts of damage, you're more likely to steal aggro if you're in a PvE group.
The Demon skills rely more on luck than Sage skills due to better crit chance from passive skills and possible +atk speed from Quickshot.

The Sage:
*STA = reduces max HP by 20% (good for boss battles)
*Blazing Arrow = Sustainable +60% fire damage (good for long battles; less reapplying)
*Bow Mastery = Permanent +90% damage with your bow (keeps damage more consistant as opposed to +crit hit)
*Stormrage Eagleon = sure, it takes 2 sparks...but for 30 secs reduces targets def by 20% (good for group boss battles)
Conclusion = Sage has more consistant damage compared to the Demon. The sage is good for group PvE. Due to dropping the target's hp initially and providing a 30sec debuff to the target, you'll help out your team. And since your increasing your teams damage rather than sparking it up, you're less likely to steal aggro (if that is even a concern at high levels) which makes your party love you more.
It also looks like you can gain free chi when your sitting idle, waiting for party members or something, by using the Wingspan skill and the "Master Li's Technique" to gain 50chi every minute

Summary:
Demon = all-around decent (PvP & PvE); has plenty of guides for it online
Sage = better for group PvE; can be more difficult as there are less guides (can be more expensive which is what I got out of previous posts)

Disclaimer:
By NO means am I suggesting that all Demon archers are better than Sage archers at PvP or PvE or vice versa. I haven't even played a Demon archer OR a Sage archer. I am simply using the facts of the skills to provide a non-biased opinion on this matter.

Not a bad observation for an archer of your level as I did something similar before choosing my cultivation. I am a pure bow, pure dex Sage btw.

Could be worth adding a few more advantages to each. I'll try to note some I use and then some that I would like more if I was demon. Also, I'm not quite sure why people examine skills and classes in a solo setting seeing as most of the game takes place in squads where you have other people that you can work some synergy with (Instances/TW/FC etc).

Sage benefits:
Frost is magic, so nice dmg on HAs. Wiz Undine Strike benefits this alot as well.
Stun is longer so more time for you to kill a tough opponent/your squad mates to help.
Stormrage's 30 sec def atk/def lvl is rather nice for bosses and on those 24k+ hp cata barbs that take forever to take down.
Deadly Shot becomes an AoE which is nice.
Winged Pledge is spammable.
Vicious is a nice mp drain to tick HAs mp charms, though otherwise not great.
Better passives.
Longer TS duration means more time for you/your clerics to nuke that last cata barb.
Longer speed buff via WoP for your squad is nice, but not very important.
Commonly used PvE skills get lower cooldowns (TB for instances, knockback for mobs)

Sage's major advantage is more chi gain with LS/QS/Wingspan and of course Master Li. More chi means more sparks, and more sparks means you can afford to use more skills that require chi/sparks. Popping WoG or EA when needed or spamming frost/TS/LS isn't as hard on your chi pool. You can also Aim Low more often. And BoA more often in FC.

Yes, I do know that demon archer's can just get CE, but a sage could as well in addition to the aforementioned chi gain methods so that argument isn't particularly valid. (Not sure why a sage archer would need CE anyways though I would see the use)

Demon benefits:
Obviously the crit % gains from passives and the procs of QS, Stun and STA are demons primary advantages. Demons will out DD a sage archer with these and Demon Spark.
10% more accuracy from Mastery is also nice.
LS never misses.
Demon Serrated seems nice on paper.
Wingspan's lvl 5 Winged Shell proc.
WoP gives more %.

Demon is obviously more attack and raw DD oriented, at least thats the perspective I gather from it.

eyehaveyou · May 2011

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not a bad observation for an archer of your level as I did something similar before choosing my cultivation. I am a pure bow, pure dex Sage btw.

Could be worth adding a few more advantages to each. I'll try to note some I use and then some that I would like more if I was demon. Also, I'm not quite sure why people examine skills and classes in a solo setting seeing as most of the game takes place in squads where you have other people that you can work some synergy with (Instances/TW/FC etc).

Sage benefits:
Frost is magic, so nice dmg on HAs. Wiz Undine Strike benefits this alot as well.

Not quite sure how much to use that in tw, since we already have 5 magic attacks.(LS, TS,TB, SE, Vow)
Stun is longer so more time for you to kill a tough opponent/your squad mates to help.

that 1 is nice true, but i prefer the + crit from demon.(20% more dmg in 10 secs)

Aim Low, the seal may still proc when enemy popped an antistun skill/pot.

Stormrage's 30 sec def atk/def lvl is rather nice for bosses and on those 24k+ hp cata barbs that take forever to take down.

rather use the spark for blood Vow + aim low or vise versa.
Deadly Shot becomes an AoE which is nice.

Eeeehm.... NO ? it wont become aoe. it says it will ignore the range penalty.

Winged Pledge is spammable.

use fists/claws in close combat, pointless
Vicious is a nice mp drain to tick HAs mp charms, though otherwise not great.

ticking mp charms helps? wht?it rather annoys barbs cause they will have more costs in tw
Better passives.
Longer TS duration means more time for you/your clerics to nuke that last cata barb.

another stun chance is quite more usefull to me. clerics most likely got other things to do in tw
Longer speed buff via WoP for your squad is nice, but not very important.

true
Commonly used PvE skills get lower cooldowns (TB for instances, knockback for mobs)

Sage's major advantage is more chi gain with LS/QS/Wingspan and of course Master Li. More chi means more sparks, and more sparks means you can afford to use more skills that require chi/sparks. Popping WoG or EA when needed or spamming frost/TS/LS isn't as hard on your chi pool. You can also Aim Low more often. And BoA more often in FC.

Yes, I do know that demon archer's can just get CE, but a sage could as well in addition to the aforementioned chi gain methods so that argument isn't particularly valid. (Not sure why a sage archer would need CE anyways though I would see the use)

Demon benefits:
Obviously the crit % gains from passives and the procs of QS, Stun and STA are demons primary advantages. Demons will out DD a sage archer with these and Demon Spark.
10% more accuracy from Mastery is also nice.
LS never misses.
Demon Serrated seems nice on paper.
Wingspan's lvl 5 Winged Shell proc.
WoP gives more %.
Thunderous Blast becomes a massive elemental AoE, i 1 shot many many HAs and LAs with that in tw.Stormrage Eagleon sounds nice on paper. 12k dmg in 15 secs means more dps. but i never got this skill, i didnt even learn lvl 1, 2 sparks sounds like a waste for a DoT skill
Demon is obviously more attack and raw DD oriented, at least thats the perspective I gather from it.

Then again, i hardly use any skills in pvp. most likely quickshot, stun , sta (used it be4 i had demon version), LS, thunderous blast, sometimes TS, Vow. ( for tws)

in solo pvp i only use quickshot and stun.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · May 2011

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage benefits:
Frost is magic, so nice dmg on HAs. Wiz Undine Strike benefits this alot as well.
Stun is longer so more time for you to kill a tough opponent/your squad mates to help.
Stormrage's 30 sec def atk/def lvl is rather nice for bosses and on those 24k+ hp cata barbs that take forever to take down.
Deadly Shot becomes an AoE which is nice.
Winged Pledge is spammable.
Vicious is a nice mp drain to tick HAs mp charms, though otherwise not great.
Better passives.
Longer TS duration means more time for you/your clerics to nuke that last cata barb.
Longer speed buff via WoP for your squad is nice, but not very important.
Commonly used PvE skills get lower cooldowns (TB for instances, knockback for mobs)

Sage's major advantage is more chi gain with LS/QS/Wingspan and of course Master Li. More chi means more sparks, and more sparks means you can afford to use more skills that require chi/sparks. Popping WoG or EA when needed or spamming frost/TS/LS isn't as hard on your chi pool. You can also Aim Low more often. And BoA more often in FC.

Yes, I do know that demon archer's can just get CE, but a sage could as well in addition to the aforementioned chi gain methods so that argument isn't particularly valid. (Not sure why a sage archer would need CE anyways though I would see the use)

I would add (and i am sorry for my breathless presentation here, am feeling rushed today): wizard undine also reduces metal defenses, i have never seen deadly shot aoe (its advantage -- full damage point blank -- is for a rare situation which does not always involve assassins), sage stormrage is a defensive buff (its somewhat like myriad sword stance and not like glacial spike -- this might be an error but its how it works), vicious has another use, and personally i often use cloud eruption on cooldown (and am sage), and barrage's defensive buff (+50% survivability) works great when things go to hell in an instance.

KedgeSniper - Lost City · May 2011

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage benefits:
Frost is magic, so nice dmg on HAs. Wiz Undine Strike benefits this alot as well.
Stun is longer so more time for you to kill a tough opponent/your squad mates to help.
Stormrage's 30 sec def atk/def lvl is rather nice for bosses and on those 24k+ hp cata barbs that take forever to take down.
Deadly Shot becomes an AoE which is nice.
Winged Pledge is spammable.
Vicious is a nice mp drain to tick HAs mp charms, though otherwise not great.
Better passives.
Longer TS duration means more time for you/your clerics to nuke that last cata barb.
Longer speed buff via WoP for your squad is nice, but not very important.
Commonly used PvE skills get lower cooldowns (TB for instances, knockback for mobs)
.

Frost arrow damage is not even that great.

Stun is decent for the little time.

Stormrage is the worst skill cause of the 2 spark cost.

Deadly shot range for AoE is so small.. You better off using Sharptooth and aoe debuff.

Winged pledge spammable? demon gets spammable shield with the aoe one.

Vicious arrow.. worst skill ever lol.. i would use this on a psy to get rid of the reflect status thing. (Not even sure if it works.. )

Longer speed buff? .. Demon has more speed/evasion. Who cares for 30 mins. At that time you either holy path or rebuffed.

I doubt anyone uses knockback at 100+ or any "common pve skills".

b:chuckle Most of your argument is terrible.

I rather read sage argument.. "MY STUN LAST LONGER N I HAVE MORE RANGE"

P.S. NO sage archer has no more survivability.

Cavalieri - Sanctuary · May 2011

Parts are taken from a guide made by a sage archer that used to post a lot on forums, but that i forgot the name of... ><

Blazing Arrow: Sage better, you're not gonna rebuff every 20 seconds.
Frost Arrow: Sage better for the fact that u get damage in another element then metal.
Vicious Arrow: -
Serrated Arrow: -
STA: 20% HP reduction or 10% crit, both useful
Lightning Strike: Never misses is nice, but i heard noone talk about how it extends cooldown with 2 seconds, where you're magic attacks are already limited.
Thunder Shock: Sage better, demon has too low chance and is over too quickly.
Thunderous Blast: Sage better, demon's added damage is neglectable after pvp reduction and armor reductions.
Stormrage: -
Take Aim: Sage better
Quickshot: Demon better
Aim Low: Sage better for the fact that u get seal + freeze for 5 seconds instead of seal+stun for 3 seconds. Very small chance that the skill procs without the freeze working.
Stunning Arrow: Sage better, 4.5 seconds is a long time. Demon Stun crit proc doesnt stack wit STA crit proc.
Deadly Shot: Sage better, demon's added damage is neglectable after pvp reduction and armor reductions.
Barrage: Equal. Either one is useful in TW.
Winged Shell: Sage better.
Winged Pledge: Equal. Sage spammable, demon helps in kiting.
Wingspan: Sage better. Demon shell will overwrite your existing shell.
WoP: Demon better, altho we all know evasion is pretty broken in this game.
Winged Blessing: Sage better. Sage will have the biggest possible range in game, which means you will be sure you ll always get first hit.
Mastery: Equal.
Spark: Equal.
Master Li/Mo Zun: Sage better.

This is from my perspective as a 500 dex sage archer. Main reasons for me to choose sage were longer range, longer stun and overal better add ons on skills. I considered my build would add more crit then average already and in general i dislike to have to rely on a skill with a 50% or lower chance to proc.

Fleuri - Sanctuary · May 2011

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

P.S. NO sage archer has no more survivability.

I think that you must be doing it wrong, but there's a million ways to get this one wrong.

Vindis - Dreamweaver · May 2011

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Frost arrow damage is not even that great.

Stun is decent for the little time.

Stormrage is the worst skill cause of the 2 spark cost.

Deadly shot range for AoE is so small.. You better off using Sharptooth and aoe debuff.

Winged pledge spammable? demon gets spammable shield with the aoe one.

Vicious arrow.. worst skill ever lol.. i would use this on a psy to get rid of the reflect status thing. (Not even sure if it works.. )

Longer speed buff? .. Demon has more speed/evasion. Who cares for 30 mins. At that time you either holy path or rebuffed.

I doubt anyone uses knockback at 100+ or any "common pve skills".

b:chuckle Most of your argument is terrible.

I rather read sage argument.. "MY STUN LAST LONGER N I HAVE MORE RANGE"

P.S. NO sage archer has no more survivability.

Interesting that you conveyed my experiences and observations as an argument, but that is neither here nor there. Btw, I am not lvl 100 yet if you would have looked at my level (96 with all sage skills available learned aside from Stun, Aim Low and Winged Shell)

I would like to redirect you to this portion of my original post seeing as you apparently missed it:

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage's major advantage is more chi gain with LS/QS/Wingspan and of course Master Li. More chi means more sparks, and more sparks means you can afford to use more skills that require chi/sparks. Popping WoG or EA when needed or spamming frost/TS/LS isn't as hard on your chi pool. You can also Aim Low more often. And BoA more often in FC.

That basically says more chi --> more survivability. More chi for WoG, Winged Shell, Sparks, EA, and sage BoA. Add cloud eruption atop it for even more survivabilty.

Also take into account that I in no way claimed demon as bad or inferior. It seems the obvious choice for more damage output due to Demon Spark and QS/crit procs. It doesnt have the same DPH as a Sage with sage passives, but Demons still hit hard and fast and does more over long periods of time (WBs are likely a good example).

Also Fleuri, thank you for your comments. I apologize for some lack of knowledge on my part, I am still not 100 and though I have many of my books learned I am still lacking some (99 skills for example) so some skills such as DS seem a little confusing from their in game description.

_Ghostz_ - Archosaur · May 2011

One trick pony huh?

Well lets put it this way, I have yet to see a AA survive a Sharptooth, Stun, Quickshot, Normal attacks.

I have yet to see a demon lightning strike miss

I have yet to see a smart person EVER put Vicious Shot into a combo, or Stormeagle be a good use of a Two spark (Really...WTF)

I have yet to see an archer not be save by a winged shell proc-ed by wingspan

I have yet to see an archer not be happy to be buffed by a Demon WOP.

Oh and survivability as an archer is like Fins on a Flying Fish, Yeah they would help them get out of the water and fly for a lil while but at the end of the day they will be right back in that water swimming.

In other words

Why would you need survivability if you can kill them first anyway, and there is always the reknowned "Survivability" we are known to have...Dodge and Kite!

Fleuri - Sanctuary · May 2011

_Ghostz_ - Archosaur wrote: »

One trick pony huh?

Well lets put it this way, I have yet to see a AA survive a Sharptooth, Stun, Quickshot, Normal attacks.

I have yet to see a demon lightning strike miss

I have yet to see a smart person EVER put Vicious Shot into a combo, or Stormeagle be a good use of a Two spark (Really...WTF)

I have yet to see an archer not be save by a winged shell proc-ed by wingspan

I have yet to see an archer not be happy to be buffed by a Demon WOP.

Oh and survivability as an archer is like Fins on a Flying Fish, Yeah they would help them get out of the water and fly for a lil while but at the end of the day they will be right back in that water swimming.

In other words

Why would you need survivability if you can kill them first anyway, and there is always the reknowned "Survivability" we are known to have...Dodge and Kite!

Yes... well.. survivability... first off, I need to work on my survivability. Most of my armor is +5 though my sky daemon's pearl is only +4 -- I have no defensive refines better than +5... and I have no rank 9 armor. And when I am outnumbered, I have a good chance of dying. And some assassins are also a problem for me (though I have also sometimes been jumped by several assassins and managed to survive long enough to kill several of them).

So my survivability is not too great, overall. But I can soak some damage. But nothing compared to someone full rank 9 and heavy refines.

Meanwhile, you are right about arcane armor. I can and have taken down wizards with 15k defenses in full rank 9 armor, using normal attacks and control skills. And since I am sage, I am doing that without demon quick shot, so I am sure it must also be possible with demon quick shot.

Meanwhile, my use of vicious arrow has not been in a combo. But I am not using it to kill someone. Which I am sure you think is useless. And in a sense you are right -- but its usefulness is mostly because people do not know what I am doing with it so they do not know how to counter it, so I will leave this one for the people that work it out on their own.

And stormrage? I'll have no problems telling you where I use sage stormrage -- its in PvE where I will probably die if I have aggro and the tank might die anyways. I have no use for increased damage from spark, then -- all that will do is give me aggro. And I have every interest in keeping the tank alive, and 20% damage reduction can turn a marginal situation into a fairly safe situation. Anyways, in my opinion, this kind of thing is only useless if you avoid those battles.

Meanwhile, I mostly only die in melee when I cannot use skills. So, yes, demon wingspan is a great skill. But I feel it has some of the same kinds of limitations that sage survival skills have: they are skills.

Oh, and I can reliably hit an archer when she or he has condor active. I just do not use demon lightning strike for this purpose.

But does any of this help you?

Anyways, by "one trick pony" I meant using short term buffs for normal attack dps. It's a really good trick, but is not without limitations.

Sage and Demon (Yes this again)

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