Sage and Demon (Yes this again)

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yes... well.. survivability... first off, I need to work on my survivability. Most of my armor is +5 though my sky daemon's pearl is only +4 -- I have no defensive refines better than +5... and I have no rank 9 armor. And when I am outnumbered, I have a good chance of dying. And some assassins are also a problem for me (though I have also sometimes been jumped by several assassins and managed to survive long enough to kill several of them).

So my survivability is not too great, overall. But I can soak some damage. But nothing compared to someone full rank 9 and heavy refines.

Meanwhile, you are right about arcane armor. I can and have taken down wizards with 15k defenses in full rank 9 armor, using normal attacks and control skills. And since I am sage, I am doing that without demon quick shot, so I am sure it must also be possible with demon quick shot.

So you kill Wizards full rank9 armor with +5 refines. Thats pro.

I doubt anyone believes that but Okay Bro.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

So you kill Wizards full rank9 armor with +5 refines. Thats pro.

Actually, I do not know what refines the wizard had!

b:chuckle

But one of my points was that my armor refines did not matter (in part because I am sage but i think that's a trivial issue here).

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

_Ghostz_ - Archosaur wrote: »

P.S. NO sage archer has no more survivability.

They could do.

More range = more time to react.
More damage = potential faster kills, therefore survivability.
DS AoE = more damage caused = more potential survivability

Stupid demon archers who cannot open their mind to why sage might be better are the people who didn't think their culti choice through carefully enough b:bye

eyehaveyou

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

They could do.

More range = more time to react. 2 meters wont make the difference in that case. when they have antistun skill on when they are running to you your 2 meters wont rescue your *** since you have only 1 25%chance to seal them with sage aim low. so no that aint a benefit sorry try again. your 2 meters will help you to attack other wizards or archers or psys, so you are out of their range while you kill them, but it wont give you time to react.
More damage = potential faster kills, therefore survivability. where does sage more damage? 90% bow damage from mastery, 10 % from blazing arrow nah its not more damage demon gives u 70% extra damage for 20 secs, that is more attack power, on the sidenote demon got more attack speed > mastery damage
DS AoE = more damage caused = more potential survivability since when got that anything to do with more survivability? name me any szenario where you would use DS on a group of people in order to survive... when they are running towards you? hell i got better things to do when i see a bunch of ppl running to me than cast DS. if i am the 1 attacking first? i rather use demon barrage-> more damage + combine able with expell. so no sorry i cant imagine of any scene where that will increase your survivability

Stupid demon archers who cannot open their mind to why sage might be better are the people who didn't think their culti choice through carefully enough b:bye

You should explain your arguments better or bring some real arguments before you call other people stupid so far good luck

Quilue - Sanctuary

Some of you keep thinking that Demon Thunderous' add-on is insignificant...well guess what?

Sage Mastery's extra 15% plus Sage Blazing's extra 10% is exactly about 800 more raw damage, if your weapon is a +12 R9 with R9 and R8 ring.

So, when are you going to make up your minds? Is 800 extra damage significant or no? I know Sage Thunderous is clearly better because it has that extra damage from mastery and Blazing but also channels faster, but I'm just saying.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

eyehaveyou wrote: »

You should explain your arguments better or bring some real arguments before you call other people stupid so far good luck

1) If range isn't that much of a difference, feel free to not level your ranged blessing since it's just waste of SP/coins

2) Yes it is.

3) 1 more AoE > 1 less AoE

Quilue - Sanctuary

AOEs are always nice ya...its better chance to Purge a group of people. STA, Thunderous, I use frequently in TW when I don't have the sparks to Barrage...but what makes you think Sage DS is AOE? Is someone confirming this?

PW-MY description:

Can inflict an absolute damage to the enemy even when it close up to oneself.

PWI description:

Sage version does full damage regardless of distance to target.

eyehaveyou

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Some of you keep thinking that Demon Thunderous' add-on is insignificant...well guess what?

Sage Mastery's extra 15% plus Sage Blazing's extra 10% is exactly about 800 more raw damage, if your weapon is a +12 R9 with R9 and R8 ring.

So, when are you going to make up your minds? Is 800 extra damage significant or no? I know Sage Thunderous is clearly better because it has that extra damage from mastery and Blazing but also channels faster, but I'm just saying.

and how much would that be with the extra 60% from demons blazing arrow? hello? but I'm just saying...
+ take demon quickshot, meaning 30% more attack speed, with 50% chance to proc so lets say it is 15% more dmg.even to sage so far with a difference of 60% more damage on ammo on demon's side
+10% higher crit chance which means for 10 and 15 secs Demon's do 20 % more damage overall.

But you are right, with the Sage Mastery your raw skill damage is higher. and if your damage is about 800 more *caugh* look at Demon Thunderous, yes we get a bonus of exact 800 and dont need a +12 R9 bow to get the 800 extra damage.

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide

eyehaveyou wrote: »

and how much would that be with the extra 60% from demons blazing arrow? hello? but I'm just saying...
+ take demon quickshot, meaning 30% more attack speed, with 50% chance to proc so lets say it is 15% more dmg.even to sage so far with a difference of 60% more damage on ammo on demon's side

Because DPS = PvP epicness

+10% higher crit chance which means for 10 and 15 secs Demon's do 20 % more damage overall.

While sage stuns for longer or reduces HP by further 4%. Easier to bypass charm tick or longer to spam skills.

But you are right, with the Sage Mastery your raw skill damage is higher. and if your damage is about 800 more *caugh* look at Demon Thunderous, yes we get a bonus of exact 800 and dont need a +12 R9 bow to get the 800 extra damage.

b:bye

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

DS AoE = more damage caused = more potential survivability

Failure.

Cavalieri - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

AOEs are always nice ya...its better chance to Purge a group of people. STA, Thunderous, I use frequently in TW when I don't have the sparks to Barrage...but what makes you think Sage DS is AOE? Is someone confirming this?

PW-MY description:

Can inflict an absolute damage to the enemy even when it close up to oneself.

PWI description:

Sage version does full damage regardless of distance to target.

There has been previous threads about this and i m 99% sure it does full damage at close range instead of being aoe

truekossy

... Why are there people that still think sage deadly is an AoE? b:cry

eyehaveyou

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

b:bye

fail lol why get sage? for 2 % extra hp reduction? -> no need lol i rather stick with blood vow try again

Phoenix_Eye - Heavens Tear

At least its nice to see archers still care about their bow skills and are not devoted to 5 aps.

My self ill go demon , cause i like some particular skills i CAN get. b:bye

Vindis - Dreamweaver

truekossy wrote: »

... Why are there people that still think sage deadly is an AoE? b:cry

I apologize once more if this misleading is in anyway my fault. I interpreted the in-game description (something along the lines of "does full damage to nearby targets" as the shot does full dmg to a nearby target, with target being the mob im aiming at and nearby being near to said mob. Near to me is just unintelligible due to the fact that archer is all about the range and who would actually use DS at close range when wingspan is available and winged pledge is spammable?

I guess it wouldnt be bad for melees or something if you popped abso domain but it really doesn't look as useful as i originally thought. To think I mightve actually made use of DS finally. Lvl 10 Take aim was greater than DS for a long time (so much so that DS didnt hit lvl 10 until it and Stormrage were the only ones left) and sage only put take aim even higher.

tl;dr Demon DS+1

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Vindis - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I apologize once more if this misleading is in anyway my fault. I interpreted the in-game description (something along the lines of "does full damage to nearby targets" as the shot does full dmg to a nearby target, with target being the mob im aiming at and nearby being near to said mob. Near to me is just unintelligible due to the fact that archer is all about the range and who would actually use DS at close range when wingspan is available and winged pledge is spammable?

I guess it wouldnt be bad for melees or something if you popped abso domain but it really doesn't look as useful as i originally thought. To think I mightve actually made use of DS finally. Lvl 10 Take aim was greater than DS for a long time (so much so that DS didnt hit lvl 10 until it and Stormrage were the only ones left) and sage only put take aim even higher.

tl;dr Demon DS+1

There's also a chance that whoever you're targeting happens to come into close range in hopes of reducing your damage. After all, Deadly Shot has a pretty long channeling and a very flashy animation. I could definitely foresee an assassin teleporting on top of you or a wizard distance shrinking near or a BM using Tiger Leap.

But yes, it's long since been confirmed that Sage Deadly Shot does full damage in melee-range, instead of it being AoE.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973

The only case where sage deadly shot will perform better than sage take aim is with a wizard who distance shrinks towards you during the DS channeling.

If a target is already in melee range, wingspan and winged pledged are far better to use than a long channeling skill like deadly shot. Sage winged pledge is spammable too with its 1second cooldown.

Sage deadly shot will be interrupted by an assassin that jumps into mellee range due to telestun and metal skills are more effective against HA users.

This leaves just wizards who distance shrink into your melee range. Really though why areyou channelling sage DS in the first place when you have sage Take Aim which does alot more damage? Do you genuinely think the wizard is preparing to distance shrink? If so you really think that is likely wouldn't sage stunning arrow be a better choice?

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

The only case where sage deadly shot will perform better than sage take aim is with a wizard who distance shrinks towards you during the DS channeling.

Actually, I can think of two other plausible cases where sage deadly shot performs better than sage take aim (one involves apothecary usage, the other can sometimes happen when sage take aim is on cooldown). I cannot think of any other cases where deadly shot, considered in isolation, winds up being better than sage take aim.

That said, if someone had level 1 take aim, I could imagine them forgoing sage take aim and using deadly shot instead.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Sage deadly shot will be interrupted by an assassin that jumps into mellee range due to telestun and metal skills are more effective against HA users.

This is mostly true, but telestun has a 3 minute cooldown.

angellicdeity

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Actually, I can think of two other plausible cases where sage deadly shot performs better than sage take aim (one involves apothecary usage, the other can sometimes happen when sage take aim is on cooldown). I cannot think of any other cases where deadly shot, considered in isolation, winds up being better than sage take aim.

That said, if someone had level 1 take aim, I could imagine them forgoing sage take aim and using deadly shot instead.



This is mostly true, but telestun has a 3 minute cooldown.

They have more than one skill:

Shadow Teleport (tele stun)
Head Hunt (stun)
Knife Throw (interrupt)
Deep Sting (sleep)
Throat Cut (Silence + interrupt)

Olbaze - Sanctuary

angellicdeity wrote: »

They have more than one skill:

Shadow Teleport (tele stun)
Head Hunt (stun)
Knife Throw (interrupt)
Deep Sting (sleep)
Throat Cut (Silence + interrupt)

Shadow Teleport has a 180 second cooldown. Knife Throw has a 30% chance to fail unless you have the Demon version.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

angellicdeity wrote: »

They have more than one skill:

Shadow Teleport (tele stun)
Head Hunt (stun)
Knife Throw (interrupt)
Deep Sting (sleep)
Throat Cut (Silence + interrupt)

Oh, certainly. And, usually, the only ones that really matter for deadly shot channelling would be throat cut and knife throw. (None of which makes deadly shot particularly useful, but telestun would not be my main concern.)

Quilue - Sanctuary

I wonder if Sage STA even at 1/2 damage would be more effective than Sage DA against better geared wizards.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »

They could do.

More range = more time to react.
More damage = potential faster kills, therefore survivability.
DS AoE = more damage caused = more potential survivability

Stupid demon archers who cannot open their mind to why sage might be better are the people who didn't think their culti choice through carefully enough b:bye

Range doesnt exist in mass PVP. There will always be a sin or someone from behind stuning you.

You would atack 2 steps farther than any other archer. Congratz.


More damage. Thats the most biased statement. I can say if you sneak someone with quickshots as rank9 would deal more damage.

Deadly shot aoe .. As sage Take aim full charge will do more damage. I had rather use sharptooth (any cultivation) than deadly shot.


Sage archers argument that "they survive more" comes from Barrage and spark "reduce damage". Even though anyone with a brain will run away or you will be permanent stun. Thats why you use Immune pots while you use any of them.


I dont think Sage is bad, But i do think demon is far way superior in Pvp.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wonder if Sage STA even at 1/2 damage would be more effective than Sage DA against better geared wizards.

That would, i think, depend on the stage of the battle?

But unless you are preparing for a charm tick, you should probably also consider metal skills.

Most wizards have a physical defense to rival their magical defense. And 50% off of their metal defense means a lot, when you are fighting a wizard. (50% off metal defense is often a greater defense reduction than 100% of their physical defense.)

(The advantage of physical attacks, on wizards, is that you can benefit from increased attack rate, which can be nice if you want to purge them.)

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Range doesnt exist in mass PVP. There will always be a sin or someone from behind stuning you.

You would atack 2 steps farther than any other archer. Congratz.

Those two steps are typically a third of a second, which can indeed make a difference.

Meanwhile, those sins are easy if you have an archer in back hitting tab.

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

Sage archers argument that "they survive more" comes from Barrage and spark "reduce damage". Even though anyone with a brain will run away or you will be permanent stun. Thats why you use Immune pots while you use any of them.

And they also make that argument based on that third of a second initiative advantage (which, with stunning arrow, perhaps holy path, and aim low, can be stretched out to something like 12 seconds).

eyehaveyou

so far, i have yet to see any arguement that can convince me that sage is the way to go.
more damage reason is ****, sage only does more raw skill damage.

the extra 2 meters dont mean a thing, like stated before, its good in offence if u want to kill other archers or ranged classes then again i dont know where that will help. meaningless in tw and pk mode.
in tw there is no max range. in pk stun some1 from distance, he pops AD and some1 else is coming for you.

Deadly Shot is NO aoe, even if it was, wouldnt mean a thing. since Sta is a better option and for HA it would be Thunderous Blast. or maybe barrage.

Sage STA nerfs hp by extra 2% over Blood Vow, not really worth it. rather take the 10% extra critrate and nuke your enemy with crits.

Damage reduction in spark or barrage is laughable too, since you get stunned anyway if you spark, or get interrupted by knifethrows when you use barrage.

so far i cant see a reason to go sage. (PvP wise I dont care about PvE)

truekossy

eyehaveyou wrote: »

so far i cant see a reason to go sage. (PvP wise I dont care about PvE)

Sage spark looks almost exactly like double/single spark from a distance to someone who hasn't seen it often enough to tell the difference... so they may actually try to tank the spark without realizing what it is. Plus it doesn't send up as huge of a "STUN THIS FGT" sign as demon's very distinct spark does.

KedgeSniper - Lost City

eyehaveyou wrote: »

Wall of Paper that Demon is superior.

Yes, As you have said it. All those reasons make demon superior. Only skills that are better as sage is Stun (cause duration is more viable) and passive.

truekossy wrote: »

Sage spark looks almost exactly like double/single spark from a distance to someone who hasn't seen it often enough to tell the difference... so they may actually try to tank the spark without realizing what it is. Plus it doesn't send up as huge of a "STUN THIS FGT" sign as demon's very distinct spark does.

1st. You can see their buffs.
2nd. I really doubt anyone Pk people that they havent fight before, You pretty much know who are the sage archers.. Cause theres like 20 per server.

truekossy

KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »

1st. You can see their buffs.
2nd. I really doubt anyone Pk people that they havent fight before, You pretty much know who are the sage archers.. Cause theres like 20 per server.

1st: Only difference in buff icons between sage spark and 2x/1x spark is the damage reduction icon... which anyone can gain via certain genie skills/apoths.
2nd. If you aren't able to PK different people often enough (or at least in mass PvP), then it means PvP on your server is dead.... or you don't PK much. While you will eventually learn all of the major sage archers on a server if you're active, you won't know them all since plenty do seem to pick sage for whatever reason. Besides, if you're sparking from a distance in mass PvP, it takes a second for someone to target you and learn what class you are... which is time you can use to your advantage.

But, as I said, that advantage really only applies to those who aren't very experienced.... unfortunately, that also happens to be a large majority of people in PK mode nowadays.

angellicdeity

truekossy wrote: »

If you aren't able to PK different people often enough (or at least in mass PvP), then it means PvP on your server is dead....

...

truekossy wrote: »

But, as I said, that advantage really only applies to those who aren't very experienced.... unfortunately, that also happens to be a large majority of people in PK mode nowadays. :

You do realize your talking to someone from Lost City...

truekossy wrote: »

Besides, if you're sparking from a distance in mass PvP, it takes a second for someone to target you and learn what class you are... which is time you can use to your advantage.

If your a factor, then on voice chat it goes "______________ is tripled", then in less a second people are channeling seals/stuns.

Regardless of class you will be sealed/stunned if your a factor.


Aside from that if your wasting your precious sparks on tripling instead of barraging, you really have no clue what your doing in TW/Mass PvP.

truekossy

angellicdeity wrote: »

You do realize your talking to someone from Lost City...

And? Even there I'm willing to bet well over half the people above level 30 are inexperienced or just plain stupid. Especially with how nowadays most people are hiding inside instances doing BH/hyper FC/Nirvana instead of being out on the open map and having to actively defend themselves from PK to gain experience.

angellicdeity wrote: »

If your a factor, then on voice chat it goes "______________ is tripled", then in less a second people are channeling seals/stuns.

And if you're a factor, then you aren't inexperienced enough to mistake sage spark for a single/double even from a distance in the first place and so what I said about it doesn't apply to you.

angellicdeity wrote: »

Regardless of class you will be sealed/stunned if your a factor.

I agree with this, but you're ignoring the point I was making in that saying everyone knows who the sage archers on a server are isn't really a good excuse against it.

angellicdeity wrote: »

Aside from that if your wasting your precious sparks on tripling instead of barraging, you really have no clue what your doing in TW/Mass PvP.

Sage has chi to spare and the triple could potentially be for the puri or for a quick snipe. Or would you really be stupid enough to waste chi by barraging one target instead of a clumped up group of people/towers/the crystal? At least if you sage spark and it's not noticed, which you can do somewhat often in the chaos of TW/mass PvP, you'll have mobility and be able to snipe a few people even if they aren't clumped together.


And how wonderful of you to completely disregard my original point which is that the similarities in the sparks is something that a less experienced person may overlook. Not once have I advocated it as even being good for those who are actually experienced and capable in any form of PK.