Sage and Demon (Yes this again)

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  • angellicdeity
    angellicdeity Posts: 641 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    truekossy wrote: »
    Sage has chi to spare and the triple could potentially be for the puri or for a quick snipe. Or would you really be stupid enough to waste chi by barraging one target instead of a clumped up group of people/towers/the crystal? At least if you sage spark and it's not noticed, which you can do somewhat often in the chaos of TW/mass PvP, you'll have mobility and be able to snipe a few people even if they aren't clumped together.

    Sage sparking/Triple sparking in Open mass PvP, or even suggesting it tells me how inexperienced you are.

    Even with Chi building abilities, they're better used on Wings of Grace, or Winged Shell, or your 79 skills.

    Even spamming all your chi building skills you will always be short on Chi.


    I like how you think you'll reap havok with Sage spark. Sage archers dont have the interval to make a significant impact. You wont be able to kill fast enough to make a difference. The people who a sage spark would make a difference on are people who would be focused down in TW anyways.


    Demon spark on the other hand gives demon archers 5x more damage + quickshot-like speed for 12 seconds. In comparison demon archers may be able to reap havok, but likely wont.


    Barrage on a nice tanky Rank 9 mage/archer in the DD-lines will often take out several people. This is thanks to the fact that Barrages radius is much larger than most people would think.
    truekossy wrote: »
    And how wonderful of you to completely disregard my original point which is that the similarities in the sparks is something that a less experienced person may overlook. Not once have I advocated it as even being good for those who are actually experienced and capable in any form of PK.

    You completely ignore the fact that using your Chi to triple spark in Mass PvP is the stupidest thing you could do. A dead Archer 3 seconds after tripling, or even 12 seconds is useless.

    To even suggest that sages can use it to their advantage is putting existing sage archers in a bad situation. Why? The majority of sage archers are those who went sage thinking the very bad idea's presented in defense of sage archers, or they did it because they have a 5 aps PvE archer where Sage Spark is obviously superior to demon.
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Sage sparking/Triple sparking in Open mass PvP, or even suggesting it tells me how inexperienced you are.
    And your inability to read or see situations where sparking can be useful shows me how inexperienced you are... or that you're trolling. Either or.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Even with Chi building abilities, they're better used on Wings of Grace, or Winged Shell, or your 79 skills.
    And I've never said that sparking was your best option in any situation. However, I have mentioned that it may be getting used for the purify... in which case following up with an apoth would do wonders.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Even spamming all your chi building skills you will always be short on Chi.
    lrn2chimanagement, then. Demon archers don't NEED to abuse chi heavy skills often enough to always be short on chi due to skill effects. Sage archers have extra chi generation so that they can afford to blow certain amounts of chi if they know what they're doing.

    I like how you think you'll reap havok with Sage spark. Sage archers dont have the interval to make a significant impact. You wont be able to kill fast enough to make a difference. The people who a sage spark would make a difference on are people who would be focused down in TW anyways.
    I like how you're too stupid to read the post properly and have to make baseless assumptions. I said you could potentially snipe a few targets, not that you'd suddenly go on a killing spree as god incarnate. Sages have less attack speed than an equally geared demon archer using either triple spark or quickshot, true. However sages also do have slightly more DPH (I said SLIGHTLY). This can allow them to, depending on circumstances, knock past a few things an equally geared demon may not be able to. And, again, where have I said ANYTHING about making any sort of impact or changing a battle with sage spark? Stop making up stupid **** to argue against when it wasn't there in any way.

    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Demon spark on the other hand gives demon archers 5x more damage + quickshot-like speed for 12 seconds. In comparison demon archers may be able to reap havok, but likely wont.
    .... Sage spark has the same bonus to weapon damage, you idiot. And a demon spark is, as I said before, VERY noticeable for even an amateur player. You WOULD be focus fired immediately even by those who may not realize when someone is using a sage spark... which was part of my original point you've so thoroughly managed to ignore.

    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Barrage on a nice tanky Rank 9 mage/archer in the DD-lines will often take out several people. This is thanks to the fact that Barrages radius is much larger than most people would think.
    In which case you wouldn't be using it on a mere individual would you? Again, you've not only ignored my point, but managed to bring something out of left field which had zero relevance. Great job.


    angellicdeity wrote: »
    You completely ignore the fact that using your Chi to triple spark in Mass PvP is the stupidest thing you could do. A dead Archer 3 seconds after tripling, or even 12 seconds is useless.
    Are you really that stupid that you have to go back to this while ignoring my point again? Show me where I said it was a good idea to triple spark in mass PvP where people can see you easily and focus fire you right after spark invincibility wears off, or better yet, purge the spark right off you so you've just lost 300 chi and now get to die a horrible death. Go on, I'll wait.

    Actually, no. I'd rather not wait as I've never said, nor implied such a thing and I'm not interested in seeing you make something else up to try and cover your ***.
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    To even suggest that sages can use it to their advantage is putting existing sage archers in a bad situation. Why? The majority of sage archers are those who went sage thinking the very bad idea's presented in defense of sage archers, or they did it because they have a 5 aps PvE archer where Sage Spark is obviously superior to demon.
    And, again, you've been ignoring my point in favor of trying to argue points that don't exist. I mentioned sage spark as a viable advantage in comparison to demon spark against inexperienced people who can't yet easily distinguish a sage spark in comparison to a single/double spark... which is something that applies to many new or inexperienced players. Not once have I said it would be great or even good against people with experience. Not once have I tried to insinuate that the damage reduction it gives would be an asset, in fact the damage reduction wasn't even brought up before aside from the icon until you came along. Not once in my original post before you started to come up with all this bull have I said anything other than that it has a visual advantage over demon spark against the inexperienced.

    And FYI, I'm a demon. I prefer demon by quite a large degree and have no desire to switch to sage. Those who go sage have their reasons, misguided or not, and I'll respect their decision even if I don't agree with it outside of 5 APS PvE farming. Now then, I'd appreciate it if you either shut up and stopped trying to drag this into something it wasn't... or would actually read and comprehend my post and my point instead of whatever the hell you want to call what you've been doing thus far.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    angellicdeity wrote: »
    Sage sparking/Triple sparking in Open mass PvP, or even suggesting it tells me how inexperienced you are.

    Your line of thought here is interesting, but honestly the best way to waste chi in mass PvP is to die. Meanwhile, triple spark gives you 3 seconds of invulnerability and a heal, which can be time to collect your thoughts, pick your targets, makes whoever is targeting you useless for 3 seconds, and so on.

    And, no, of course, this kind of thing is hardly ideal.
    truekossy wrote: »
    Are you really that stupid that you have to go back to this while ignoring my point again? Show me where I said it was a good idea to triple spark in mass PvP where people can see you easily and focus fire you right after spark invincibility wears off, or better yet, purge the spark right off you so you've just lost 300 chi and now get to die a horrible death. Go on, I'll wait.

    And here... venomancer purge has 10m range, and if you have let an enemy veno get within 10m of you, you are already in deep trouble (unless the veno does not know how to play well, which describes too many venos -- venos are a tricky class to play well, once they reach high levels). And you would also be in deep trouble if you are engaged in mass pvp and you do not have anyone else nearby to take on your opponents rushing you when you triple spark.

    Or, if you were talking about archer purge, if you stand there tanking an archer long enough to reach a 50% purge chance... I can think of better ways to spend that time.

    Of course, being in deep trouble is pretty much the point of mass PvP. But, still, ...
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    I like how in the "math obsessed" archer forum somone posts that 500% weapon damage off of demon spark is 5x damage and nobody says a word. really?

    Simply put demon archers can kill enemies that a sage with equal gear would never dream of killing. Sage survival skills are mediocre at best. Anyone rich enough for sage 5 aps gear can make a sin for better tanking ability 2-3x the damage and OPness in pk.

    Or from a BM's point of veiw, Sage EA = mag marrow and laugh, Demon = spam mag def charms and pray because if you ever pop marrow QS will rip you apart. Or in other words Demon makes the oponent hold geni/ apocs for def meaning less OI TE Ep and frenzy allowign you freedom with your own apocs/geni. The best defence is the best offence...unless your a fish then white foodoo/seal buff or stealth = god mode def.

    In TW your just tab targeting **** geared people or focus fireing cash builds, culti dosent matter so much as refine level here.

    On topic, 3 spark of any cultivation is glareingly obvious to anyone who's been in pk more than a week, the stance color and duretion of spark are dead giveaways. Tricks to kill idiots are useless against anyone with a brain, the inverse is not true.
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  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I like how in the "math obsessed" archer forum somone posts that 500% weapon damage off of demon spark is 5x damage and nobody says a word. really?\

    Is so much nonsense there is no way for anyone to address it all.

    But, yes, omg you have given away the secret for dealing with sage archers. Just magic marrow and it's game over for us. Please, omg, please do not use magic marrow!

    b:shocked

    b:mischievous
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    A good way to wreak havoc with T-spark and get away with it is T-Spark -> AD -> IG -> Alacrity Out

    Of course if you lag and miss AD's stun immune, then you just look like a fool stunned and immune in a crowd of people...they walk past you and probably say on vent "lol looka that clown"..
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Is so much nonsense there is no way for anyone to address it all.

    But, yes, omg you have given away the secret for dealing with sage archers. Just magic marrow and it's game over for us. Please, omg, please do not use magic marrow!

    b:shocked

    b:mischievous

    with demon bell spam +10-12 rank 8 has a hard time killing a +5 hybrid bm (vit build) through mag marrow off a sage archer. it CAN however you need quite a few back to back crits (look sage, lower critrate) So sages pretty much have to go for a metal combo unless the bm is a total nubcake. Mag marrow + mag charms more or less shut down that route. Its not a perfect counter (luck does happen) But most of the time its pretty easy to close on a sage with geni energy up for OI, if they do back to back crit AD shows up and the sage can time alacrity to break lock. However its much harder to close on a demon since at equal refines red sprint/geni is damn near nessecary to close every time since 1 freeeze = dead from a sparked metal combo or QS depending on marrowed/unmarrowed status. So geni is more or less out of play by the time you close on a demon makeing it easier to break lock.

    No i'm not considerign apocs simply because if you need to apoc to kill in 1v1 pvp your pretty special. In mass pvp/tw bm's are damn near a nonfactor for actual kills unless they're obscenly refined targeting **** refines, or in other words "the fight" dosent happen because the archers focused on upping kill count via squishies and the bm's are mele fodder for casters.

    Demons greatly out DPS sages, this is how it matters in pvp from the bm prespective. Now if you'll hop off that high horse and have a cookie, it'll help with your pretentious ****. The fiber and sheer happyness are good for ya.

    Long story short

    "Sages take more skill to pvp with to see it work!" yes, because their survival skills are overated the masteries are countered by one activation of demon stunning arrow and the range advantage is something that only matters vs demon archers and dumb wizzies in 1v1 pvp. Again we come back to the part where the cultivations have similar survivability control skills and range (omg 2 meters!), counting 100 skills (OMG 40 mill is to much to pay for a skillQ.Q) Debuffing and spark gain become comperable. The one proven mathmatical fact in this entire arguement is that demon outdamages sage sparked, unsparked, has a higher gear cap with claws (5 aps with rank 9 +10 attack level add and g 15 claws or just 5 aps with warsoul i suppose though thats unrealistic). This means that the demon will get a higher effect out of said control skills, range, and survivability. The sage does get higher metal spam DPH at a lower critrate, however if you look up you'll see and example of why that matters less that one would think.

    Ok so mabey long story long.

    Inb4 sage can be better than demon this 1 time in a billion! this totaly justifies my cultivation choice!
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    with demon bell spam +10-12 rank 8 has a hard time killing a +5 hybrid bm (vit build) through mag marrow off a sage archer.

    There are too many unknowns here, for me to say anything concrete.

    I do not even know what you mean by "has a hard time killing", though vit builds are supposed to be hard to kill -- that is pretty much their point.

    Meanwhile, demon quickshot has a 50% chance of success (though, admittedly, on a short cooldown).

    So I am starting to wonder if you are maybe overgeneralizing based on a few tests.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    There are too many unknowns here, for me to say anything concrete.

    I do not even know what you mean by "has a hard time killing", though vit builds are supposed to be hard to kill -- that is pretty much their point.

    Meanwhile, demon quickshot has a 50% chance of success (though, admittedly, on a short cooldown).

    So I am starting to wonder if you are maybe overgeneralizing based on a few tests.

    hard time was specified later in the same post as needing a lucky crit chain.

    50% chance to kill your target or force them to blow a geni/imune pot just to live is pretty damn nice.

    Bm in question is myself (I know of like 1 other bm that actively pked in the time i was around on our server with all the rank 9 its pretty rare to see one of us at west even rarer for one to actually fight somone) hybrid is LA wrist boot Ele neck HA all else vit build is min stat for claws/axes rest in vit. So we're talking a bm with 8.7k hp and mediocre phys def (feel free to calc it with +5 flawless i'm to lazy) regularly liveing through sage auto with marrow on. Sages still hurt but theres not the omgdeathcoinflip.

    if you like i can fish up some gear off my 8x alts and play with you on my now stripped bm to demonstrate the point. Buddah fists and calamity axes at 2.22 aps = pro.
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  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    You know.. Chi advantage is like 2008/MY version b:chuckle

    You got Chi pots, Genie, 100 Skill. You also get the -50 chi skill as demon. Which tend to be pretty good against arcanes. Such as mages who need chi more often.


    3 spark in open pvp is decent. I doubt barraging in the air is smart anyways. Unless is west gate and your dropping on the floor while no one see you.


    Like he said.. any Sage "archer" that is worth to be scared of.. You will know when they spark and gtfo or immune pot. I do believe if Demon archer and Sage archer spark and had 10 targets to kill. I think Demon would kill more before the spark runs out (Without any interrupts).


    I only recall Yoshiki, Shinzoko, Upskirt and Midnight as Sage archers with decent weapons(+12 Weapons). I bet theres more obviously but if i see those.. I had gtfo.

    http://pwi.perfectworld.com/ranking?ranking=pvp&class=Archer&server=Lost+City

    ^ Top 30 Archers I only see Mid, shin, yoshi up there. The rest of the list are Demon or not good weapon.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
    Leeching CQ salary since 09'
    Many names, Common Faces.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    if you like i can fish up some gear off my 8x alts and play with you on my now stripped bm to demonstrate the point. Buddah fists and calamity axes at 2.22 aps = pro.

    You would have to settle for me using a +5 rank 8, or dropping my jones blessing and running if i purge you.

    And I am not sure if we can even duel with me max range (which is where I would be if I was PvPing, but I am not going to go white named for this).

    (Meanwhile, I am vit build myself, so my damage is likely lower than any other archer with my gear, though I might be tempted to melee with you.)
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    You would have to settle for me using a +5 rank 8, or dropping my jones blessing and running if i purge you.

    And I am not sure if we can even duel with me max range (which is where I would be if I was PvPing, but I am not going to go white named for this).

    (Meanwhile, I am vit build myself, so my damage is likely lower than any other archer with my gear, though I might be tempted to melee with you.)

    Theres no point in dueling those are just weapon refine pissing contests.

    I'd personaly like to see all these crazy "sage tricks" you go on about in every sage vs demon thread, pretty shure a bm with 7x-8x weapons would make a good target for em.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Theres no point in dueling those are just weapon refine pissing contests.

    I'd personaly like to see all these crazy "sage tricks" you go on about in every sage vs demon thread, pretty shure a bm with 7x-8x weapons would make a good target for em.

    Well... maybe i will have to go white named. I will have to think about this, and talk about it with my friends.

    Currently, though, all of my archer pvp experience has been in TW. And if you want to talk with someone that used to think well of how I conduct myself there, try MasamuneXero (its been months though, since I encountered him).

    If I did go white named, when would be a good range of time for you?
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Well... maybe i will have to go white named. I will have to think about this, and talk about it with my friends.

    Currently, though, all of my archer pvp experience has been in TW. And if you want to talk with someone that used to think well of how I conduct myself there, try MasamuneXero (its been months though, since I encountered him).

    If I did go white named, when would be a good range of time for you?

    Dun really care I work really low hours on weekdays and college is out till summer classes start in a few weeks. Pretty well stocked with free time between apartment hunting.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Dun really care I work really low hours on weekdays and college is out till summer classes start in a few weeks. Pretty well stocked with free time between apartment hunting.

    Joshcja is offline.

    :/

    Maybe tomorrow?
  • Fragil - Harshlands
    Fragil - Harshlands Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Damn it, I want to see the fight!


    Signed:

    A very proud active pvper sage archer supporter for over four years.

    b:victory
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Joshcja is offline.

    :/

    Maybe tomorrow?

    I retired the BM a while ago lol why would i be on a stripped down charecter? just pick a time and message it to me in the forums private chat.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    How about you both just use npc gear?
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • KedgeSniper - Lost City
    KedgeSniper - Lost City Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    How about you both just use npc gear?

    Or get a room. b:chuckle
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Face the fear. Face a war. Face the world.
    Leeching CQ salary since 09'
    Many names, Common Faces.
  • Zanryu - Dreamweaver
    Zanryu - Dreamweaver Posts: 7,261 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    Or get a room. b:chuckle

    You could cut the sexual tension with a knife.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited May 2011
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I retired the BM a while ago lol why would i be on a stripped down charecter? just pick a time and message it to me in the forums private chat.

    Ok, thank you for telling me.
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    How about you both just use npc gear?

    I am not sure that would work right -- npc gear would increase the significance of vitality.

    (Meanwhile, I think I understand how to defeat demon bell spam using sage archer skills but there's a lot of other things that can go on in PvP so I do not know how that would pan out, but overall I think I would have a better chance in my regular armor with a +5 bow than in npc gear. I cannot match an r8+12 archer's damage output with a +5 bow but there are other things I can do.)
    KedgeSniper - Lost City wrote: »
    Or get a room. b:chuckle

    I thought that, from the Lost City point of view, Sanctuary was a room???

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