5 aps sage vs 5 aps demon

ArchSaber - Sanctuary · April 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

archs a troll most of the time but he's right here

tbh i only trolled to get my post count to 1kb:shutup

Mrvate - Heavens Tear · April 2011

ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »

1. You use Vitality stones in your fantasy build.
Vit stones aren't that bad. And the main point of his post was not a to show a fantasy build, but a comparison of the fact that demon can use G15nirvana while maintaining 5aps while sage is stuck.
2. Jade of Steady Defense gems gives you a better survivability rate.
But yes JoSD is better for survivability when considering gear is +12.
3. Thus you need a g13 cape to shard JoSD. (level 95 lunar cape)
If he's not using JoSD kind of a moot point.
Oh yeah just pointing this out. An -interval cape is not necessarily needed if you demon. You can use a split build and still have 3.33 base.
The cape is actually needed in to keep the 5 aps with g15 nirvana, unless ofc he got amazingly lucky and rolled 2 -.05 on same fists.
And I also like how you rather tt nirvana combo instead of lunar nirvana.
Another thing not really worth bringing up, the differences are minute, and both have reason why 1 may be better then the other.
And the fact that the amount of -interval you put in your fists is -0.5 instead of -0.05 makes you you even less sharp.
Big deal, no worse then a typo. at least he realized that he needs a cape to maintain 5aps in game.
And you also use an LA chest, which results in a loss of not just physical defense but also magic defense.
You should do the math on this. By using HA wrist and LA top he'll loose 334pdef, (and though worthless -1%pdmg and 126 evasion). But by doing that he'll gain 230mdef and 9 points of dex which are able to be statted out. making this really not that bad of a trade out.
And how you put in a Warflame Badge knowing that you don't have another piece to give you the defense level bonus and can have more magic/physical def with a warsong belt.
He could get better mdef or better pdef with a Warsong belt. but its a trade off this is a balanced belt. Though this is fantasy in actual game Warflame will end up better for cost in most cases, and as far as dps is concerned will contribute more the then Warsong Belt.

I like blue.

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wouldn't go out of my way to shard vit stones over JoSD in g13+ gear because jades are better when no enemy attack level is involved, but keep in mind vit stones aren't completely useless; they have their advantages too. They actually do significantly better than JoSD when it comes to pvp against rank 9s with 90 attack level.

I'd just shard Jades in g13+ gears and be happy with a balance of vit stones in g12 gear.

And I disagree with you. You have things backwards. Def lvls. work on an actual diminishing return. While attack lvls are linear. The main thing though is attack and defense lvls will counter each other 1 for 1. Meaning that assuming the attacker has an attack lvl. your def lvls will be working on linear until def lvl exceeds attack lvl. In which case the def lvl over attack lvl will be put onto a diminished return.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · April 2011

at 80% def that 1% phys def loss becomes 1/20 or a 5% differance physical damage taken between the heavy and light chests

this differance goes to about 10-9% if you chose to use a rank 9 ring (hell if i know why you wouldent)

so yes go with the build that deals less damage and has lower survivability

its just a bad build overall

TheDan - Sanctuary · April 2011

Mrvate - Heavens Tear wrote: »

And I disagree with you. You have things backwards. Def lvls. work on an actual diminishing return. While attack lvls are linear. The main thing though is attack and defense lvls will counter each other 1 for 1. Meaning that assuming the attacker has an attack lvl. your def lvls will be working on linear until def lvl exceeds attack lvl. In which case the def lvl over attack lvl will be put onto a diminished return.

No, you have it backwards. As long as your def level never cancels out the 90 attack level which is rank 9's set bonus attack level, vit stones will always be superior than JoSD against Rank 9 opponents. If your defense level can exceed the opponent's level, if (attack level < defense level) then:

damage taken = { damage delivered / ( 1 + (1.2 * ({ defense level } - { attack level }) / 100 ) ) }

JoSD will be better than Vit stones as it's off a 1.2 scale and not 100% linear.

Source

I will take my un-buffed stats of about 13K HP, 10.5K P def and about 4.4K Mage def as an example:

Total effective survivability for Phys def = 23,825 , Mage Def 11,777
Survivability added per gem when fighting opponent with 90 attack level.
Per Jades of Steady Defense - Phys def = 256 Mage def 126
Per Vitality Stone - Phys def = 370 Mage def 176

Vit stones win vs Rank 9s

Total effective survivability for Phys def = 23,825 , Mage Def 11,777
Survivability added per gem when fighting opponent with 30 attack level.
Per Jades of Steady Defense - Phys def = 559 Mage def 276
Per Vitality Stone - Phys def = 548 Mage def 262

JoSD win vs regular 30 attack level enemies

Source

Crematory - Lost City · April 2011

O.o after reading all this... I realized that u guys are SQUARE heads... and need a life... and a woman maybe

Joshcja - Sanctuary · April 2011

this **** is bm basics, learn it or make a damn sin

Dan assume 15k base hp and 100 attack levels against you a boost of 2 def levels can be treated as a 2/100 or 1% reduction

1% of 15K is...150 same as a vit stone plus jades will scale with your armor refines as well, there is no real situation past +10 refines where JoSD's does not outpreform vit stones, plus any non hp based heals (pots sutra etc) are amped by def level and each followign stone will only have a greater effect

Mrvate - Heavens Tear · April 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

at 80% def that 1% phys def loss becomes 1/20 or a 5% differance physical damage taken between the heavy and light chests

this differance goes to about 10-9% if you chose to use a rank 9 ring (hell if i know why you wouldent)

so yes go with the build that deals less damage and has lower survivability

its just a bad build overall

the -x% physical dmg taken doesn't stack like that. If it did it'd be godly and I think alot of ppl would have chosen there gear differently. The 1 percent is after your pdef's reduction to the raw dmg. Assuming raw dmg was 1,000 for numbers sake and you have 80% reduction from pdef, the dmg you'd take is 200. Then the 1% from the armor takes place reducing the dmg to 198.

Also Using LA top would have potential to increase DPS, and unless I'm missing something (please inform me if I am) would not lower your DPS in anyway. The ability to increase DPS is as I mentioned earlier is in the +9dex add on the LA top. This 9 dex is able to be stated out. By that I mean you can account for the 9 dex in the top to put you at the number for the minimum amount of dex required to hold your fists. This then puts you with 9 stat points more the using HA top and LA wrists. Those could be put into str. to increase DPS. or Vit to increase survivability. And when Comparing the survivability between the 2 gear choices it's a trade between 334 pdef and -1%pdmg (which does not work how you stated) compared to 230 mdef and 9 stat points.

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

No, you have it backwards. As long as your def level never cancels out the 90 attack level which is rank 9's set bonus attack level, vit stones will always be superior than JoSD against Rank 9 opponents. If your defense level can exceed the opponent's level, if (attack level < defense level) then:
snip

You're arguing the wrong thing, I never said anything including the comparison of vit to def lvl. I was saying your statement in red is wrong.

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wouldn't go out of my way to shard vit stones over JoSD in g13+ gear because jades are better when no enemy attack level is involved, but keep in mind vit stones aren't completely useless; they have their advantages too. They actually do significantly better than JoSD when it comes to pvp against rank 9s with 90 attack level.

I'd just shard Jades in g13+ gears and be happy with a balance of vit stones in g12 gear.

The math using the same formula in the links you provided.
For computing simplicity dmg delivered will be 1,000 Atk. lvl will be 50 when computing atk lvl > then def lvl and vise versa.

if (attack level > defense level) then:
damage taken = { damage delivered * ( 1 + ({ attack level } - { defense level }) / 100 ) }

1,500= { 1,000 * ( 1 + ({50} - {0}) / 100 ) }

Now 50 atk lvl with no def lvl is 50% more dmg. If you where to graph that it'd make a linear line for each atk lvl you'd add.

if (attack level < defense level) then:
damage taken = { damage delivered / ( 1 + (1.2 * ({ defense level } - { attack level }) / 100 ) ) }

625 = {1,000 / ( 1 + (1.2 * ({50} - {0}) / 100 ) ) }

Now 50 def lvl with no atk lvl, it is not reducing the dmg by 50%. As it is only reducing the dmg by 375 instead of a full 500. meaning it is reducing the dmg by 37.5%

Now if you add 50 def lvl to both of the equations. The first scenario of add 50 def lvl will drop the dmg taken by 500, meaning 50% (you can compare here to the 50 def lvl over 0 atk lvl of 37.5%). Or for the second scenario adding 50 more def lvl will decrease the dmg taken to 455 dmg, meaning that with 100 def lvl over attack lvl will provide a 54.5% dmg reduction (also note the difference in percentage of the 100 def lvl and 50 def lvl) This is not linear as a percentage or as a charted # for dmg reduced.

This shows us that def lvl will reduce more dmg when countering atk lvl. Then what it will if def lvl is higher then atk lvl.

Omgpie - Lost City · April 2011

why the hell are you guys doing the calculation by hand.

The benefit of def lvl is with respect to the absolute value of the difference between ur def lvl and the attacker's atk lvl. and for probably more than 95% of the cases Jades are WAY better than vit.

First of all the assumption is that all your gear is +10, since if you are putting vit or jade without planning to go +10, you are an idiot.

With full +10 gear, the percentage benefit of vit stone decreases where as the benefit of jade is the same. In general if ur def lvl is within 60 lvls from the attacker's atk lvl, jades are better.

use the freaking calculator for survivability to see instead of arguing based on whatever calculation you are doing that is almost certainly not as accurate.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · April 2011

you can set the calculator to 20k hp with 0 attack levels on your oponent and 0 def levels on your toon and it will claim the 150 hp off a vit stone is more effective than the 200 effective hp of a DoD

i dont trust that thing as fas as i can throw it >.>

aside from that gotta agree with you

TheDan - Sanctuary · April 2011

We all know JoSD is better 95% of the time; I'm simply pointing out that Vit stones are not completely useless and have their uses the other 5% of the time, I never suggested that going full vit stones was better. This is pure idiocy. Trying to assert that you 'must' be full JoSD in all pieces of fantasy end game gear is also equally stupid; as it's impossible to shard those in interval G12 gear. That's what makes Vit stones come in handy as a balance when no G13+ gear is available.

I only stated I'm perfectly fine with having JoSD and a balance of Vit stones in the rest of my G12 gear and people think I'm an advocate of full Vit stones lmao. This math has been hashed out years ago, I'm just pointing out the new factors of game-play which don't make Vit stones 100% useless; implying the other 5% is the slight advantage when it comes to R9.

/...facepalm

Joshcja - Sanctuary · April 2011

*points to math directly refuteing your claim that Vit is better than JoSD vs rank 9*

*points to the archer that told you vit was better buying 10 mill DoD's in west arch*

there is no situation over full +10 (before this refines, even on light armor and rings give more survivability per coin than either of the options) where Vit stones would be better than Jades

not questioning your statement that of vit stone g 12 and def level g 13+, is a good mix of sharding. just pointing out that the logic used to back it is questionable

b:surrenderb:surrenderb:surrender

TheDan - Sanctuary · April 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

*points to math directly refuteing your claim that Vit is better than JoSD vs rank 9*

*points to the archer that told you vit was better buying 10 mill DoD's in west arch*

there is no situation over full +10 (before this refines, even on light armor and rings give more survivability per coin than either of the options) where Vit stones would be better than Jades

not questioning your statement that of vit stone g 12 and def level g 13+, is a good mix of sharding. just pointing out that the logic used to back it is questionable

b:surrenderb:surrenderb:surrender

Questionable logic? Probably, but from my calculations vit stones are still better than JoSD in terms of fighting Rank 9, but are worse 95% of the other times.

Full HA +10 gives you 12K HP assuming full strength build

http://pwcalc.com/7c22f301a4ee8e51

Full +10 HA and 2 pieces of LA gives you about 11K HP assuming full strength build

http://pwcalc.com/7f93230816d8d8cc

My example of my 13K HP already demonstrated their usefulness at least sometimes. Anything less than 15K HP should in theory be more helpful than JoSD against Rank 9.

Using the attack / defense level formulas, vit stones still come out as more effective phys def and mage def resistance per shard when it comes to fighting rank 9. The thing is, in PvE and most PvP cases where enemies will have 30 attack level, JoSD will be more effective. This is already a given, with math being hashed out since 09.

It seems quite ideal to be satisfied with putting vit stones in G12 and JoSD in G13+ if you are going to be engaged in PvP as they both have a usefulness in different cases. On the other hand, if your gear was to be strictly used for PvE, and interval gear happened to be G13+ it's more ideal to just stick full JoSD.

Mrvate - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You're arguing the wrong thing, I never said anything including the comparison of vit to def lvl. I was saying your statement in red is wrong.

The math using the same formula in the links you provided.
For computing simplicity dmg delivered will be 1,000 Atk. lvl will be 50 when computing atk lvl > then def lvl and vise versa.

if (attack level > defense level) then:
damage taken = { damage delivered * ( 1 + ({ attack level } - { defense level }) / 100 ) }

1,500= { 1,000 * ( 1 + ({50} - {0}) / 100 ) }

Now 50 atk lvl with no def lvl is 50% more dmg. If you where to graph that it'd make a linear line for each atk lvl you'd add.

if (attack level < defense level) then:
damage taken = { damage delivered / ( 1 + (1.2 * ({ defense level } - { attack level }) / 100 ) ) }

625 = {1,000 / ( 1 + (1.2 * ({50} - {0}) / 100 ) ) }

Now 50 def lvl with no atk lvl, it is not reducing the dmg by 50%. As it is only reducing the dmg by 375 instead of a full 500. meaning it is reducing the dmg by 37.5%

Now if you add 50 def lvl to both of the equations. The first scenario of add 50 def lvl will drop the dmg taken by 500, meaning 50% (you can compare here to the 50 def lvl over 0 atk lvl of 37.5%). Or for the second scenario adding 50 more def lvl will decrease the dmg taken to 455 dmg, meaning that with 100 def lvl over attack lvl will provide a 54.5% dmg reduction (also note the difference in percentage of the 100 def lvl and 50 def lvl) This is not linear as a percentage or as a charted # for dmg reduced.

This shows us that def lvl will reduce more dmg when countering atk lvl. Then what it will if def lvl is higher then atk lvl.

What the hell? Of course I'm arguing the wrong thing because you quoted me out of context; I was comparing Vit stones and JoSD. No where did I mention JoSD is better when defense level is higher than attack level, you assumed a different implied meaning.

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wouldn't go out of my way to shard vit stones over JoSD in g13+ gear because jades are better when no enemy attack level is involved, but keep in mind vit stones aren't completely useless; they have their advantages too. They actually do significantly better than JoSD when it comes to pvp against rank 9s with 90 attack level.

I'd just shard Jades in g13+ gears and be happy with a balance of vit stones in g12 gear.

What my implied meaning was that Jades are better than vit stones when no enemy attack level is involved, not when defense is higher than attack.

TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »

I wouldn't go out of my way to shard vit stones over JoSD in g13+ gear because jades are better than vit stones when no enemy attack level is involved, but keep in mind vit stones aren't completely useless; they have their advantages too. They actually do significantly better than JoSD when it comes to pvp against rank 9s with 90 attack level.

I'd just shard Jades in g13+ gears and be happy with a balance of vit stones in g12 gear.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · April 2011

JoSD's scale with refines, vit does not

and going on your forumla there the more Jades you stack the more effective they are eventually putting them over vit stones even vs 100 attack level

i treat attack level as a % nerf on effective hp since is just another amp really, so 100 attack levels would turn a vit stone down to an effective 75 hp, while jades would add 2% of your original base or 220 in this case

i hate how that formula assumes that vit stones will have the same effect vs 2x damage that they would vs 1.3

ChromoHax - Dreamweaver · May 2011

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Again, not to sound too cheesy, but you have to think in meta-game. If you have sage bell, you likely have cleric buffs as well. So it is base 2.35 vs. 2.5, which in % is not that much. Now factor in DEF lvls and such, and the reality is sage does not do that much in difference. But, before charging in like bullet catchers, we demons can boost 75% extra on the way in, making it 3.1 vs. 2.5, which is a bit more significant when consider full damage - phys def amount as a percentage difference. And if you're purged of all buffs, is your first act going to be stand in one place while self buffing and hoping the archer doesn't shoot you dead or stun you? If so, here's your sage sign.

Sage Bm has it's benifits just like demon which is why I went sage. Sage suits Axe,pole,and swords better pvp wise while Demon suits Fist better pvp wise and has some benifits with axe like the ability to stun locc. Overall though with the defense and small advantage in damage, sage bms are better at killing other classes like wizz, cleric, mystic or veno assuming they're ARCANE BUILD with lunar pole+Sage spark+sage farstrike=one shot! 2 shots at most. Archers, wizzes, and phys pwn a demon bm hands down in a duel. It's basically like saying demon suits fighting physical close up classes while sage is better for fighting ranged classes. Demon=Pk/1v1 while sage is more suited for TW/Pve. Overall they both have their benifits depending on playing style so there's no need to hate on a playing style just because it's different.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · May 2011

ChromoHax - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage Bm has it's benifits just like demon which is why I went sage. Sage suits Axe,pole,and swords better pvp wise while Demon suits Fist better pvp wise and has some benifits with axe like the ability to stun locc. Overall though with the defense and small advantage in damage, sage bms are better at killing other classes like wizz, cleric, mystic or veno assuming they're ARCANE BUILD with lunar pole+Sage spark+sage farstrike=one shot! 2 shots at most. Archers, wizzes, and phys pwn a demon bm hands down in a duel. It's basically like saying demon suits fighting physical close up classes while sage is better for fighting ranged classes. Demon=Pk/1v1 while sage is more suited for TW/Pve. Overall they both have their benifits depending on playing style so there's no need to hate on a playing style just because it's different.

polearms arent really a threat, like, ever. In the time it takes you to farstrike a smarter bm can run in stun and rip the archers hp apart.

Poles are something used to gently tap a runenr with 10% hp to death not as a main weapon (unless your +10 vs 5 armor)

No really good luck rangeing an archer with a pole

ArchSaber - Sanctuary · May 2011

ChromoHax - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage Bm has it's benifits just like demon which is why I went sage. Sage suits Axe,pole,and swords better pvp wise while Demon suits Fist better pvp wise and has some benifits with axe like the ability to stun locc. Overall though with the defense and small advantage in damage, sage bms are better at killing other classes like wizz, cleric, mystic or veno assuming they're ARCANE BUILD with lunar pole+Sage spark+sage farstrike=one shot! 2 shots at most. Archers, wizzes, and phys pwn a demon bm hands down in a duel. It's basically like saying demon suits fighting physical close up classes while sage is better for fighting ranged classes. Demon=Pk/1v1 while sage is more suited for TW/Pve. Overall they both have their benifits depending on playing style so there's no need to hate on a playing style just because it's different.

Yah dude sage suits nothing lol. Axe is longer HF and better stuns as demon. Farstrike isn't a big deal when 100% crit rate as demon is much higher damage. Swords? Sage nor Demon suits swords, they suck.

Don't see how demon is better in PvE. How demon has higher damage and is able to tank much better then a sage.

I also don't see why sage would be better for TW when BMs are mainly supposed to use magic marrow in TW and Sage magic marrow will get you killed from BT and/or rank8 barrage. BM's are also suppose to roar a lot, so good luck with that shizz failing.

To fight a ranged class, you just OI if they run and fist locked. Using Farstrike on an endgame wizzie isn't much even when sage. Wizzy can have more then 10k p def even with mediocre gear. On veno? Would do good damage but the ironwood + nix would obliterate your sage magic marrow. Archers? All the rank 8 these days will obliterate a sage using P marrow, s m marrow or no marrow at all.

We just hate the sage playing style only because it's one, funny to make fun of ignorant people. Two, it just sucks.

Okeano - Harshlands · May 2011

ChromoHax - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sage suits Axe,pole,and swords better pvp wise while Demon suits Fist better pvp wise and has some benifits with axe like the ability to stun locc.

Have you read the level 11 skills?

ChromoHax - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Overall though with the defense and small advantage in damage, sage bms are better at killing other classes like wizz, cleric, mystic or veno assuming they're ARCANE BUILD with lunar pole+Sage spark+sage farstrike=one shot!

Grats, you just used all your chi, and your AA opponent might have been smart enough to use Domain as you spark then seal/sleep/stun you. Now what?

ChromoHax - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Archers, wizzes, and phys pwn a demon bm hands down in a duel. It's basically like saying demon suits fighting physical close up classes while sage is better for fighting ranged classes. Demon=Pk/1v1 while sage is more suited for TW/Pve. Overall they both have their benifits depending on playing style so there's no need to hate on a playing style just because it's different.

Are you ****ing reta***d? Please delete your BM right now. You bump a month old thread ended with in-depth math analyst of the game with the most reta***d argument for choosing sage?

1-Duel is a joke
2-You are going to spam Farstrike and think that'll win? That's your whole argument?
3-I know what "PK" is like on DW, since I was there from the day one of the server. Trust me, real PK isn't like that. No BM in their right mind triple spark against anything outside of highly refined Barb.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · May 2011

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Have you read the level 11 skills?

Grats, you just used all your chi, and your AA opponent might have been smart enough to use Domain as you spark then seal/sleep/stun you. Now what?

Are you ****ing reta***d? Please delete your BM right now. You bump a month old thread ended with in-depth math analyst of the game with the most reta***d argument for choosing sage?

1-Duel is a joke
2-You are going to spam Farstrike and think that'll win? That's your whole argument?
3-I know what "PK" is like on DW, since I was there from the day one of the server. Trust me, real PK isn't like that. No BM in their right mind triple spark against anything outside of highly refined Barb.

theres some rank 9 bm's on my server that 3 spark is needed on, aside from that i just kinda chuckled at the idea of a sage bm trying to 3 spark farstike a archer

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · May 2011

You know it's cereal when TheDan quotes himself in his own posts. b:shocked

>_> I read the Demon and Sage skills. I'm going demon. If I ever get there...

Fistol - Raging Tide · May 2011

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary wrote: »

You know it's cereal when TheDan quotes himself in his own posts. b:shocked

>_> I read the Demon and Sage skills. I'm going demon. If I ever get there...

i think demon is the way to go too..
pretty obvious.

stun,HF and demon spark are like the main reason why bm are wanted.

demon just outright enhance those.

Okeano - Harshlands · May 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

theres some rank 9 bm's on my server that 3 spark is needed on, aside from that i just kinda chuckled at the idea of a sage bm trying to 3 spark farstike a archer

If they got like 20k hp probably. If I time it right BM in the 15-16k HP range dies, and I'm only 3.33 based. The tricky part is having all the elements I need not in cool down when I land my stun, since my BM is still squishy so I often have to use genie to stay alive against +10 and up fists instead of having it for Occult.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · May 2011

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

If they got like 20k hp probably. If I time it right BM in the 15-16k HP range dies, and I'm only 3.33 based. The tricky part is having all the elements I need not in cool down when I land my stun, since my BM is still squishy so I often have to use genie to stay alive against +10 and up fists instead of having it for Occult.

True enough but tbh its a lot easier to keep 3 sparks up and roar>OI with spark than it is to set up a full stunlock CC chain and then pray GS procs. A bit more reliable as well

Zanryu - Dreamweaver · May 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

True enough but tbh its a lot easier to keep 3 sparks up and roar>OI with spark than it is to set up a full stunlock CC chain and then pray GS procs. A bit more reliable as well

Unless Occult fails b:surrender

Joshcja - Sanctuary · May 2011

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Unless Occult fails b:surrender

20% chance of oi failing vs 50% chance of GS failing

Zanryu - Dreamweaver · May 2011

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

20% chance of oi failing vs 50% chance of GS failing

One leaves you without a stun lock, the other doesn't. Honestly it's just a matter of preference, both are viable options. I prefer to have my chi available to me for stunlocking and ccing my opponent, that.. and sparking seems like the easy way to win. If you wanna spark go for it, to each their own.

LadyofReal - Heavens Tear · May 2011

I will get this straight out in the open; anyone who says someone else is an idiot because they chose to play the game their own way, is an idiot.

I will not argue that a demon BM will out damage one that is sage; doing so would be like arguing why the sky is blue.

I will, however, say that not once have I ever regretted going sage. I have been playing PWI since 2008, when sage BMs were believed to be the best, well before the introduction of negative interval gear; and not once have I ever doubted myself in my capabilities as a BM.

As with any class, any well geared player that knows what they are doing is capable of doing mass amounts of damage; whether or not that damage will out do the player next to them is a completely different story. However, a BM with incredibly good gear is still pretty much worthless if they do not know how to play their class, as is the same with all the others.

Anyone can claim that the damage reduction given by sage spark is useless, but I will defend the fact that it has saved my life on more than one occasion. Will my BM ever be able to out damage a demon on the same caliber, it's highly unlikely; but that doesn't matter to me since I know how to play my class, I know how to survive, and I know how to be an asset.

Besides, most demon BMs that I run Nirvana with seem like they don't even know what Heaven's Flame is. They always feed the same BS story that they do more damage with spark. That much I will agree to, but in squad based settings, it's not about the solo member but rather the functionality of the squad as a whole.

Go ahead, flame me, troll me, berate and degrade me because of the path I chose, I don't care; just remember, I was here for far longer than most of you who have posted in this thread and there's not a damn thing that you can do to even get me to contemplate changing my mind.

Joshcja - Sanctuary · May 2011

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

One leaves you without a stun lock, the other doesn't. Honestly it's just a matter of preference, both are viable options. I prefer to have my chi available to me for stunlocking and ccing my opponent, that.. and sparking seems like the easy way to win. If you wanna spark go for it, to each their own.

cant argue that lol

And to clarify whatsyourfacerantpost I say that anyone who says sage has a basic advantage over demon in any area but chi gain is an idiot, so anyone who picks a path based off a idiotic idea is an idiot. Personaly i dont like the path but if somone choses it knowing fully the drawbacks and plays it because they enjoy the playstyle? Ya i'll chuckle a bit but if they're good i'll leave it at mild ribbing.

People who blatently disregard proven mat and then make statements like "sage are better DD cause of tha mastery duuuuuuuuur" are idiots and i withhold the right ot refer to them as such.

In short, Demons better. Its a game play however you want, I've never said otherwise. Idiots are idiots and theres no reason not to flame em a bit.

LadyofReal - Heavens Tear · May 2011

You missed the point.

I never discounted the math, I clearly stated that I made my BM long before anyone even considered going demon on anything other than a cleric or archer.

And it wasn't intended on being a rant post, trust me I can rant if I wanted to. The point behind it all was to say that going sage isn't completely useless. And no, it's not because of the mastery BS. I have been able to outlive many of my demon counterparts simply because of the damage reduction the spark gives.

I never said that sage was better, hell I even openly admitted that demon does do more damage. But nonetheless, my point still stands; if you don't know how to play, then no matter what you do, you will still suck at it.

Sarrafeline - Sanctuary · May 2011

LadyofReal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You missed the point.

I never discounted the math, I clearly stated that I made my BM long before anyone even considered going demon on anything other than a cleric or archer.

And it wasn't intended on being a rant post, trust me I can rant if I wanted to. The point behind it all was to say that going sage isn't completely useless. And no, it's not because of the mastery BS. I have been able to outlive many of my demon counterparts simply because of the damage reduction the spark gives.

I never said that sage was better, hell I even openly admitted that demon does do more damage. But nonetheless, my point still stands; if you don't know how to play, then no matter what you do, you will still suck at it.

This, I suspect, is why most of the people in BH, TT, FCC, etc., completely fail at... Well... Everything.

There's a Sage Archer in my faction, and he totally facerolls every Demon Archer in TW. He's got TT99, Nirvy Pants, TT99 ornaments, and R8 Bow.

I've TWed against him, before I joined the factions, and the Demon archers couldn't even get in range before he had one or twoshot them.

He knows how to play. If he had a Demon Archer, he'd still faceroll everyone.

But... Sometimes knowing how to play... And a fail build and knowing how to play are two separate things. I did an FB51 at level 66 with a Sage Sword BM. BM was Sage, and 94. My level 66 Sin pulled aggro on every mob, and held it. If you have a TT90 +7 sword, you should be able to hold aggro off a level 66 Sin. My build was OP then, but not THAT OP. >_> +4 daggers and Blood Moon Bracers... I ended up tanking Wyvern with no difficulty anyway.

Regeston - Heavens Tear · May 2011

LadyofReal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I will get this straight out in the open; anyone who says someone else is an idiot because they chose to play the game their own way, is an idiot.

I will not argue that a demon BM will out damage one that is sage; doing so would be like arguing why the sky is blue.

I will, however, say that not once have I ever regretted going sage. I have been playing PWI since 2008, when sage BMs were believed to be the best, well before the introduction of negative interval gear; and not once have I ever doubted myself in my capabilities as a BM.

As with any class, any well geared player that knows what they are doing is capable of doing mass amounts of damage; whether or not that damage will out do the player next to them is a completely different story. However, a BM with incredibly good gear is still pretty much worthless if they do not know how to play their class, as is the same with all the others.

Anyone can claim that the damage reduction given by sage spark is useless, but I will defend the fact that it has saved my life on more than one occasion. Will my BM ever be able to out damage a demon on the same caliber, it's highly unlikely; but that doesn't matter to me since I know how to play my class, I know how to survive, and I know how to be an asset.

Besides, most demon BMs that I run Nirvana with seem like they don't even know what Heaven's Flame is. They always feed the same BS story that they do more damage with spark. That much I will agree to, but in squad based settings, it's not about the solo member but rather the functionality of the squad as a whole.

Go ahead, flame me, troll me, berate and degrade me because of the path I chose, I don't care; just remember, I was here for far longer than most of you who have posted in this thread and there's not a damn thing that you can do to even get me to contemplate changing my mind.

You've got my full support. I'm a Sage BM myself and you are being honest here.

5 aps sage vs 5 aps demon

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