5 aps sage vs 5 aps demon

Yhumy - Dreamweaver

assuming same gear, same refines etc, which is better?

Joshcja - Sanctuary

demon

/thread

Yhumy - Dreamweaver

wouldnt sage have that extra 15%?

Brus - Lost City

I would go for sage.
90% of the players around play demon tho

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Yhumy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wouldnt sage have that extra 15%?

search button, do you even know how strength and masteries work?

damage formula is (weapon+phys adds+rings)(1+(str/150)+mastery+other multipliers (DBB barb bufffs weapon proc etc)

so sage mastery adds a .15 multiplier weapon damage on top of your 200-300% str multiplier. grats tahts more than a little useless. Gonna go glitch DBB for a 1.35 multiplier and GS for 100% crit now.

Brus - Lost City wrote: »

I would go for sage.
90% of the players around play demon tho

if you go sage fully knowing how the bm class works your an idiot

In short read the god damn stickies.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

Yah this topic is old.

Sage sucks terrible nut. Demon is cheaper 5.0 and has godlike skills. 100% crit - 135% fire damage - 3 second longer HF.

So demon 5.0 has the ability to do 5 times the sage 5.0 damage using only self skills.

Sakubatou - Sanctuary

Yhumy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wouldnt sage have that extra 15%?

That extra 15% to base dmg is an overall 2-3% damage difference. Then subtract the 1% crit difference demon gets and you are basing a culti off of 1-2% dmg difference. That 1% crit is usually more appreciated in pk, btw.

Sage needs Cyclone heel or Wind Shield to reach 5.0. If they use Cyclone Heel that takes .4-1 second to channel cancel or 2 seconds to let it cast. That means you'll miss out on 2-10 attacks. If you use Wind Shield it over rides the damage reduction of Sage spark (the point of sage spark, right?) and you'd need to spam it, making it a more expensive choice.

You would need 4.0 base for sage, 3.33 for demon.

Lets look at axe and fist skills one by one at which is generally preferred.

Drake Bash- Demon. 1.5 more seconds stun is a better bonus.
Highland Cleave- Sage. Since this is normally cast when aoe grinding or zhening the demon attack speed bonus is minimial, but the crit increase will benefit in aoe grinding.
Fissure- No clear winner since they both have situational positive.
Heavens Flame- Demon. 9 second HF kicks the **** out of a few thousand more fire dmg over time.
Shadowless Kick - Sage. A 3 meter aoe is relatively useless and with fist's low base dmg the benefit goes to the increased availability for Kick to cancel.
Cyclone Heel- Demon. if the increased attack rate bumps you to another int level. 5 second increase on a 15 second skill that takes half a second to cancel isn't as useful.
Drakes Breath Bash - Demon. 135% Fire damage for no sparks when channel canceled kicks the **** out of sage.
Marrows - Demon. Sage marrows are nice but the huge nerf to the opposite marrow will get you killed, plus with diminished returns there is not a large benefit between the two.
Golden Bell - Either. I know alot of people will say Sage because its larger but for me personally it adds about 350 defense and doesn't change my % pdef reduction whereas when used correctly the 15 seconds of +75% demon bell has huge benefits and can prevent squad wipes.
Roar of the Pride - Demon. 100% success rate (duel a sin and see) and decreased cooldown. Enough said.
Diamond Sutra - Demon. You will not depend on sages 20% chance to recieve more hp, but as a demon skill it becomes spammable for a 10% increase to crit rate.
Glacial Spike - Demon. CC for 100% crit rate for 5 seconds (25 attacks).

Overall - Not one Sage skill stands out but with demon you get 100% crit for 5 seconds, 10% spammable increase to crit rate, 9 second 100% damage amp for the squad, stunlock between two skills, safer marrows, and +1.35 damage modifier in fire damage.



Thats why 90% of BMs go demon and 10% of BMs regret their culti choice.


Edit: Wanted to add this in. As far as pure HA, or HA/LA a sage BM would need to go HA/LA for the -int bonus to reach 5.0 (this may or may not lower survivability.) They also would need -.1 int on their weapon, pretty much leaving out the possibility of G15 fists because of the extremely low chance of getting 2 x -.05 int on them.

Telarith - Sanctuary

The range of where demon would be better than sage for cyclone heel is completely bypassed by the need to be celestial to get the skill itself. If someone is actually truly going all path, by the time they actually get to the point of using the skill sage is already going to beat demon due to duration with current level equipped -int gear. Especially since demon spark about renders demon cyclone heel useless. It's only in the -.25 and -.3 range that demon would even show a difference, but there you would be demon sparking anyways.

And with CE and Windshield as an intermittent stop gap, it is more of a nod to the uselessness of demon cyclone outside of CC, when compared to a longer buff with essentially the same effect at most points. Remember, you get the -interval as a set pretty much at lvl 99, which is a full -.1 at once. This is the other thing which kills the usefulness of the demon version buff, since it jumps at that one point of strength.

EDIT: To sum up, at end game you are looking at a buff that with demon gives you -.05 interval for 15 secs, and a sage version that gives a -.05 interval for 20 secs. Sage version wins, but that doesn't mean sage itself is the better path over-all.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

I like how Sakubatou is so detail oriented.

Highland Cleave was proven by like thedan or someone that their procs activates like once out of 100 times.

I would say sage bell wins over demon, demon might have more p def for a short time. But i dont think anyone would wanna spend 400 mp every 15 seconds. And buddhas guard can stack with sage bell.


And when you say 90% of bms go demon is a lie. There are still many stupid and ignorant BMs that think sage is still better then demon.

Telarith - Sanctuary

ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »

I like how Sakubatou is so detail oriented.

Highland Cleave was proven by like thedan or someone that their procs activates like once out of 100 times.

I would say sage bell wins over demon, demon might have more p def for a short time. But i dont think anyone would wanna spend 400 mp every 15 seconds. And buddhas guard can stack with sage bell.


And when you say 90% of bms go demon is a lie. There are still many stupid and ignorant BMs that think sage is still better then demon.

Again, not to sound too cheesy, but you have to think in meta-game. If you have sage bell, you likely have cleric buffs as well. So it is base 2.35 vs. 2.5, which in % is not that much. Now factor in DEF lvls and such, and the reality is sage does not do that much in difference. But, before charging in like bullet catchers, we demons can boost 75% extra on the way in, making it 3.1 vs. 2.5, which is a bit more significant when consider full damage - phys def amount as a percentage difference. And if you're purged of all buffs, is your first act going to be stand in one place while self buffing and hoping the archer doesn't shoot you dead or stun you? If so, here's your sage sign.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

sage bm's marrowing on +10 rank 8 archers with a 120% def reduction marrow = priceless

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

sage bm's marrowing on +10 rank 8 archers with a 120% def reduction marrow = priceless

BM using physical marrow on any archer > level 10/sage m. marrow on a rank 8 archer

Joshcja - Sanctuary

ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »

BM using physical marrow on any archer > level 10/sage m. marrow on a rank 8 archer

but sage bell is 15% more phys def!

Telarith - Sanctuary

Stop trying to kill the sage BMs by making them finally start to think, we tried that over a year ago and all they do now is ignore how long they were Jerry's (Lyndura's) kids for so long and pretend they are experts by bringing up **** we already talked about years ago.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Stop trying to kill the sage BMs by making them finally start to think, we tried that over a year ago and all they do now is ignore how long they were Jerry's (Lyndura's) kids for so long and pretend they are experts by bringing up **** we already talked about years ago.

its for science

we want to see if the pressure of though in a thick enough skull will cause an explosion of Q.Q and angst

Telarith - Sanctuary

Anyone else feel like turning Lyrndura into a verb/noun? Such as:

That donkey just tried to tank with axes, what a Lyndura.

OR

That moron just Lyndura'ed a perfectly good set of Deicides by dual sharding with Ambers...

Raise a finger if you agree

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

its for science

we want to see if the pressure of though in a thick enough skull will cause an explosion of Q.Q and angst

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Anyone else feel like turning Lyrndura into a verb/noun? Such as:

That donkey just tried to tank with axes, what a Lyndura.

OR

That moron just Lyndura'ed a perfectly good set of Deicides by dual sharding with Ambers...

Raise a finger if you agree

PWI forums should get a like button like Facebook.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Anyone else feel like turning Lyrndura into a verb/noun? Such as:

That donkey just tried to tank with axes, what a Lyndura.

OR

That moron just Lyndura'ed a perfectly good set of Deicides by dual sharding with Ambers...

Raise a finger if you agree

*fingers*

kinda wish we where back in the dark ages, and i had the gear i do now.

so much death

_TricK - Raging Tide

I'm assuming everyone fighting over small numbers that use an exact 3.33 base Deicide +4 weapon.

First of Sage BM to become 5 APS, is expensive. After all that, your stuck there. G13 Deicides/HH100. +12 HH100 is 1300 max damage.

Demon BM has way more future.
You can sit at 5 APS with frenzy/berzerk/20 attack level G15 Nirvana Fists

Only point of 5aps is damage output. So Demon in the real "END game" 5aps will be better

Joshcja - Sanctuary

_TricK - Raging Tide wrote: »

I'm assuming everyone fighting over small numbers that use an exact 3.33 base Deicide +4 weapon.

First of Sage BM to become 5 APS, is expensive. After all that, your stuck there. G13 Deicides/HH100. +12 HH100 is 1300 max damage.

Demon BM has way more future.
You can sit at 5 APS with frenzy/berzerk/20 attack level G15 Nirvana Fists

Only point of 5aps is damage output. So Demon in the real "END game" 5aps will be better

oddly i have to disagree, rank 8 fists would actually have higher dps unsparked on my current build but i pk with deicides. 5 aps is more for def/chi gain than anything

_TricK - Raging Tide

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

oddly i have to disagree, rank 8 fists would actually have higher dps unsparked on my current build but i pk with deicides. 5 aps is more for def/chi gain than anything

Example of how demon end game cannot be matched by sage on "5" aps.

http://pwcalc.com/5841182106dcb20a

Consider the sage "5" aps, also all +12, wouldn't match that DPS

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

_TricK - Raging Tide wrote: »

Example of how demon end game cannot be matched by sage on "5" aps.

http://pwcalc.com/5841182106dcb20a

Consider the sage "5" aps, also all +12, wouldn't match that DPS

Whats your question?


No one ever said that sage was better.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

...was that an LA chestplate?

the stupids have infected you go kill yourself before it can spread to anyone else

(i love how everyone uses the g 12 cape on their omg +12 endgame builds)

_TricK - Raging Tide

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

...was that an LA chestplate?

the stupids have infected you go kill yourself before it can spread to anyone else

(i love how everyone uses the g 12 cape on their omg +12 endgame builds)

Read the stats again.

If you knew, cape is needed to maintain that 3.33 base on a G15 fist

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

_TricK - Raging Tide wrote: »

Read the stats again.

If you knew, cape is needed to maintain that 3.33 base on a G15 fist

Clearly you don't know what he is talking about when he lols at g12 cape at fantasy builds.

Figure out his Josh's logic and I'll toss you a cookie.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Ah.. I knew I wasn't wrong for saying Demon > Sage

_TricK - Raging Tide

ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »

Clearly you don't know what he is talking about when he lols at g12 cape at fantasy builds.

Figure out his Josh's logic and I'll toss you a cookie.

Again, it is needed. Put any other cape, will take out, refer to the forum title, "5 aps" Fantasy/reality.

Oh also get level 100, your too busy being a factor in forums.

ArchSaber - Sanctuary

_TricK - Raging Tide wrote: »

Again, it is needed. Put any other cape, will take out, refer to the forum title, "5 aps" Fantasy/reality.

Oh also get level 100, your too busy being a factor in forums.

No cookie for you.

Your little fantasy build has so many tweaks, that I might just explain to you why I laugh at you.

1. You use Vitality stones in your fantasy build.

2. Jade of Steady Defense gems gives you a better survivability rate.

3. Thus you need a g13 cape to shard JoSD. (level 95 lunar cape)

Oh yeah just pointing this out. An -interval cape is not necessarily needed if you demon. You can use a split build and still have 3.33 base.

And I also like how you rather tt nirvana combo instead of lunar nirvana.

And the fact that the amount of -interval you put in your fists is -0.5 instead of -0.05 makes you you even less sharp.

And you also use an LA chest, which results in a loss of not just physical defense but also magic defense.

And how you put in a Warflame Badge knowing that you don't have another piece to give you the defense level bonus and can have more magic/physical def with a warsong belt.

I can probably point out more flaws, but I wanna play Black Ops right now.


*And FYI, I could be 100 by Sunday if I wanted(spring break). But I am retired. I would not want to spend my spring break doing 15 FCC's a day. I have friends, homework and sports. So don't say I'm a factor here because I am not 100 when I'm definitely smarter then you.*

INexperience - Raging Tide

ArchSaber - Sanctuary wrote: »

No cookie for you.

Your little fantasy build has so many tweaks, that I might just explain to you why I laugh at you.

1. You use Vitality stones in your fantasy build.

2. Jade of Steady Defense gems gives you a better survivability rate.

3. Thus you need a g13 cape to shard JoSD. (level 95 lunar cape)

Oh yeah just pointing this out. An -interval cape is not necessarily needed if you demon. You can use a split build and still have 3.33 base.

And I also like how you rather tt nirvana combo instead of lunar nirvana.

And the fact that the amount of -interval you put in your fists is -0.5 instead of -0.05 makes you you even less sharp.

And you also use an LA chest, which results in a loss of not just physical defense but also magic defense.

And how you put in a Warflame Badge knowing that you don't have another piece to give you the defense level bonus and can have more magic/physical def with a warsong belt.

I can probably point out more flaws, but I wanna play Black Ops right now.


*And FYI, I could be 100 by Sunday if I wanted(spring break). But I am retired. I would not want to spend my spring break doing 15 FCC's a day. I have friends, homework and sports. So don't say I'm a factor here because I am not 100 when I'm definitely smarter then you.*

Beware the

Dear Mr. Keyboard Warrior.
We're talking about 5 aps.
Again the cape.
Also use your keyboard warrior face roll with hypers, it makes you 100.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

archs a troll most of the time but he's right here

TheDan - Sanctuary

I wouldn't go out of my way to shard vit stones over JoSD in g13+ gear because jades are better when no enemy attack level is involved, but keep in mind vit stones aren't completely useless; they have their advantages too. They actually do significantly better than JoSD when it comes to pvp against rank 9s with 90 attack level.

I'd just shard Jades in g13+ gears and be happy with a balance of vit stones in g12 gear.