Anyone else feeling replaced?

I rolled a Mystic and got to level 2. I then realized how much better a cleric would be. It's buffs are to drool for, has an awesome -35% mdef debuff, best res options, sage Magic Shell can grant my main account casters -20%ch, BB for -50% dmg+ healing. I didn't find Mystic's skills all that appealing. Time will tell.

Tsenlu - Sanctuary wrote: »

No one needs the other classes anymore.
No one needs a Venomancer or a Blade Master or a Barbarian or a Cleric.
Mages and Archers are obsolete now.
I just created another thread about this and get flamed of course.
Clerics are still in demand but not necessary and the other classes are all but obsolete.
No one "needs" the other classes anymore.
You don't need a Venomancer for your squad to pull anymore, you can get a Mystic instead, you don't need a Barbarian or a Blade Master to tank anymore, you can get a Mystic, you don't meed a Cleric to heal or res, you can get a Mystic.
And they have killer magic attacks so you don't need a Mage or any other class of character.
Just get a Mystic.
It's all "Mystic World" now.

Put crack pipe on floor and step. We don't need any particular class for most jobs for a while now.

I could agree with Yanami on most, but aps craze? - Craze for crazy? There are many things APS can't do for you like sitting in 1 spot and killing mobs around you with 1 shot without moving, or constant AoE, or killing a mob as it comes to you instead of HP'ing to it just to make it seem you kill faster. Then there's range tanking, taking little to no damage, etc. Aps is nice, but I'm sticking with casters.

tweakz wrote: »

Like change into fox form? Purge gets us into Nirvana and that's about it.

Purge gets Venos into NV? For the second boss? That's simply wrong, 'cause with a fast party the boss doesn't buff itself even once.
It's mostly Amp and Armor Break that get Venos in aps NV parties. Try it urself: 6* 5.0 aps is slower than 5* 5.0 aps + 1 veno. Amp and Armor Break make the 5 aps chars deal more additional dmg in total than a sixth aps char would deal.
Other than that venos still deal more dmg in NV than mages, clerics or psychics. But compared to aps classes, the dmg is still a joke of course.

tweakz wrote: »

The class isn't done. They could come out with sage or demon skills that cause damage when they land and purge w/o having to shapeshift. They could even get an AoE amp. With the summon as a DD, and them as tank: they have much more versatility on their tank including range tanking, equip swapping, armor building, etc. In the end, it could come down to our lower cost of operation, but I think they'll get some L11 skills that take care of that too.

http://bit.ly/pwimystic
No purge, no amp, a 79 skill to get 2000 MP over 9 secs... many sage skills reduce mp or chi costs, still demon seems to be the better choice imo, especially with pvp/tw in mind.

Tsenlu - Sanctuary wrote: »

No one needs the other classes anymore.
No one needs a Venomancer or a Blade Master or a Barbarian or a Cleric.
Mages and Archers are obsolete now.
I just created another thread about this and get flamed of course.
Clerics are still in demand but not necessary and the other classes are all but obsolete.
No one "needs" the other classes anymore.
You don't need a Venomancer for your squad to pull anymore, you can get a Mystic instead, you don't need a Barbarian or a Blade Master to tank anymore, you can get a Mystic, you don't meed a Cleric to heal or res, you can get a Mystic.
And they have killer magic attacks so you don't need a Mage or any other class of character.
Just get a Mystic.
It's all "Mystic World" now.

I guess u either play a different game or don't have too much experience.

Clerics: better heals, better rez when it's about exp loss, and most important the buffs of course, ...
Venomancer: still better in luring, but yeah, i'd rather lure with a genie than a mystic. And there is still Bramble Guard for pve (or tw and tourney), there is Amp, there is Purge, there is Armor Break, Lending Hand, ...
Barbarians: better croud control (aggro control), hp buff, attack buff for melees, cata puller role in tw, ...

and so on...

all the other classes r better in doing certain jobs, the mystic is an assistant. Nothing more, nothing less. The mystic is filling the spot that a veno couldn't fill because of the lack of heal and rez. Mystics r just another support class next to venos. They won't replace anyone. But a veno and a mystic together r pretty awesome.

Spliffany - Lost City wrote: »

Purge gets Venos into NV? For the second boss? That's simply wrong, 'cause with a fast party the boss doesn't buff itself even once.

Wrong for faster squads sure, but 5.0 aren't the only ones running it.

It's mostly Amp and Armor Break that get Venos in aps NV parties. Try it urself: 6* 5.0 aps is slower than 5* 5.0 aps + 1 veno. Amp and Armor Break make the 5 aps chars deal more additional dmg in total than a sixth aps char would deal.

Sage amp for faster parties is useful but venos are also liabilities because most are squishy. Amp also only works on half the bosses. That said, most often another -int is desired. Armor Break for veno kinda sucks for 1-1. It hits less than 20% of the time and can shorten the duration of a 20s debuff to 9s. Better would be a totally reliable longer lasting -40% (ironwood) + -55% (tangling mire).

tweakz wrote: »

Sage amp for faster parties is useful but venos are also liabilities because most are squishy. Amp also only works on half the bosses. That said, most often another -int is desired. Armor Break for veno kinda sucks for 1-1. It hits less than 20% of the time and can shorten the duration of a 20s debuff to 9s. Better would be a totally reliable longer lasting -40% (ironwood) + -55% (tangling mire).

Well, while amp only works on half of the bosses, armor break works on all. Which rly helps in making runs faster, especially on those bosses that can't be amp'd. Sage amp is nice for sure, but demon amp does the job as well. Better than no amp. XD

When looking at Armor Break, u also have to take the 2 Myriads into consideration. From my own experience i can say that either myriad or demon ironwood procs pretty often. And in aps parties the short duration is enough most of the time.

Multiple tries (while looking for the perfect line-up) showed us that aps parties with 1 veno (demon in my case) r faster than pure aps parties, especially with armor break on those bosses that can't be amp'd or dragon'd.

Sure, we could discuss if it really makes a difference if u need 6 or 7 minutes in NV. But during double drop when u r constantly doing NV, it makes a noticeable difference. time = money

When not talking about aps parties, then venos r still prefered to mages or psys, as their overall dmg is higher because of the pet. I have seen 2 venos in a NV party more often than a mage or psy. Especially when one of them is sage and the other is demon.
And again Amp and Armor Break (and in this case maybe even the Myriad Mdef debuff if there r other magic classes with u or the demon venomous if there is another veno) help the party.

The "overdebuffing" is just a matter of teamplay btw. Let the veno try to armor break first. If it doesn't proc, then the barb could armor break and so on...

Katzyn - Sanctuary wrote: »

I like my Mystic...but as others have said, I much prefer Venos, so far. Pulling on the Mystic is rather more haphazard than veno-pulling, and I haven't quite mastered it yet...@_@

And, having the veno-is-my-main mentality, I'm not used to being able to have more than one summon out, so I tend to forget about the plants, and I often forget to give mana to the summons...oy.

The only things I think I really, really like, is the healing abilities - Since my two main chars are a veno and a cleric...it's beautiful.

That's how I feel about it as well. Pulling with a mystic pet is just like rushing to the mobs itself. I feel safer luring with a zeal genie than with my mystic's summons. I haven't mastered it yet as well, I suppose.

The summons are nice. Any of the summons doesn't outshine Amp, though. Plus, we're the only class who can pass chi onto other players so there's nothing really that "replaces" venos., imo.

flamingahole wrote: »

I feel that this needs to be said.

Those of you who are worried about being 'replaced', why? Are you really that insecure about your class' abilities and your own ability to play that class? If you're even half decent at playing whatever class you've chosen for yourself then chances are you'll only be replaced if someone, not some class, with skills greater than your own shows up.

One more thing; it's just a game. Just have fun with whatever class you're playing.

not really. i've already been a veno for a long time, playing since 2008, and it hurted when i saw some1 kicking an herc veno (which debuffed and passed chi just awesomly) from fc squad lvl 80-90 just cause they felt like having a sin on squad. wanna talk about being "secure" now? i understand ur point, the problem is that ppl think venos r trash now, they dont even care if u play ur veno well or not, and that's really sad. as for mystics: i've already fced with 1 and that was awesome, actually it was a double joy for me since i had mystic + veno in squad (healing plants + chi can be such a relive for a lvl 80 cleric in fc). so yeap, not wanting to be mean but prepare for another veno knockout on squads... i already decided im not efforting myself to get my veno an herc anymore, it's almost pointless, the nix though is a different story >:D

anyway i agree with ur "this is just a game" atitude. if a veno gets in a cool faction or has good friends, then she/he is likely to get a squad anyway^^ i personally changed my main to a cleric cause i got sick from feeling all this "pwi hates venos" but i still didnt quit my veno =D i really admire ppl that can still keep their venos as their main and honestly i just didnt quit my cleric and went back to my veno cause i started to love it too O.O.

I can see mystics filling a spot in a squad that doesn't quite need a cleric and doesn't quite need a veno. But in those cases I don't know that the mystic is replacing the cleric/veno so much as other classes covering the roles. Only time will really tell though.

AnniVenna - Archosaur wrote: »

(And wth why does my join date keep saying i just joined everytime i rarely post?!?! ive been here since 08 damnit)

Have you switched forum avatars much? I joined in '08 as well but never bothered to set my avatar until almost a year ago.

its not about what we think ..its actually about others. i think a squad would rather prefer to take a mystic with them who heals and has rez buff, then a veno who can ONLY amplify. Fact is we been already unwanted before in fc squads (at least in high lvl one) now noone even pays attention to us anymore. we dont even count as DDs anymore..we are just there to fill a spot cause they couldnt find someone else.

PS: yeah i know we can still pull but i been in to many squads with zeals to consider it as a pro. since even if you say "i m gonna pull/i can pull" and you run forward...still someone runs faster and gets the boss with the zeal without warning or waiting.

the only thing that i m looking forward to, is nirvana. since to many 5aps needs still amp there and go even without a cleric.

flamingahole wrote: »

I feel that this needs to be said.

Those of you who are worried about being 'replaced', why? Are you really that insecure about your class' abilities and your own ability to play that class? If you're even half decent at playing whatever class you've chosen for yourself then chances are you'll only be replaced if someone, not some class, with skills greater than your own shows up.



One more thing; it's just a game. Just have fun with whatever class you're playing.

i have a herc recently and before that i had a glacial. i couldnt tank any bh bosses so i got kicked few times. as i said its not what YOU think you can do as veno, its all about what others think. i love my veno.
and as for fc...read again what i said ..HIGH LVL. after lvl89 you get third spark and noone needs sparks then. i have a cleric and never needed any sparks from a veno after reaching lvl89. if anyone else does, then he fails. and for debuffs...cleric can debuff all bosses as well. they take sin+bm+archer+wiz+cleric+barb there you have your squad. ever saw someone shouting "LF Veno without or with herc as DD" nop..they all want either wiz, sin or archer. and even at bosses sins can tank as well btw. who needs a herc? i m talking now out of expirience as cleric even.
yes i do find myself to compare only veno+fc cause no other instance is so picky when it comes to classes. all others are bh and they just want to fill the spot (gamma doesnt count since noone does gamma nowadays). fc is something else, i think it shows pretty much the "preference" of DDs and venos get the last spot.

Edit: ..i could tank with herc fc at lvl81 all bosses except the first (since he needs to run away from red cycles), but then every meelee can after lvl85-90+ (along with sin) and your example with summerspring is only an exception. its not like every squad expect to gets wiped you keep the agro and run around. that can do a bm, archer or sin as well.

xxxdsmer wrote: »

a veno with a good tanking pet (dosent even HAVE to be a herc.. armored bear can tank some bosses in there) is useful in frost.

a veno with leveled up aoe's (noxious gas and parasitic nova) is useful in frost. (nox nova nox does quite a bit of aoe damage in a short time... even with my nova being lv1 and me being a *properly* built heavy armor veno: aka i'm lv90 and using hh90 weapon and hh90 armors)

clerics'll love ya if you pass 'em sparks, especially if they dont have to ask you to do it. (or BM or someone else.. helps things keep moving along)

and there's been many times i've ran the superslash boss up and down the hall with lv3 summersprint and demon foxform to keep it from resetting while everyone else got back on their feet.

i've even heard veno can tank all bosses in there... but i'm guessing thats with a herc (which i do have) and a higher lvl (which i dont.. i'm 90)

and i could continue, but i've already been on the forums long enough lol... veno can do alot more than *just* amp in frost

Ok After reading through all this I only wish to say this.

Having Played a Veno Myself I enjoy the ability to lure with a Walker or whatever pet as it doesn't cost Mana. I enjoy the Simplicity of a Veno's Skills which offer great damage, Debuff and Amplified abilities. Over All A Venomancer Is a wonderful character class to play. Yes we can Tame Pets and that is what makes the Class itself to play.

I've got a Mystic right now at lvl 46 and I am enjoying her as well. Granted a Mystic can out drink a Psy or a Wiz in Mana because of our Pets needing it for skills yet even without feeding a pet Mana we still go through it like mad. Why Simply Because our cool down times on certain skills are slightly faster. Yes this is a draw back that can be slowed through the use of Focus powder ((of which I have become addicted )). As a Mystic I do not even try to lure or pull a Mob. Simply because it is safer to Speed kill with my devil taking aggro from 3 mobs at a shot. Currently We can kill 2 of the 3 Mobs (depending on their damage and lvl) Before I Have to heal it. Over all a Mystic is a well balanced class of a Veno, Cleric and Wizard.

That Being Said,

A Mystics Pets/Summons has one Draw back That a Veno does not have. The Summons Defense and attacks are Based off 2 Areas one is obviously the Skill lvl of the Summons ie Devil Summons lvl 7. This yes increases damage and over all abilities.

The Other Area is gear. A Mystics gear such as Armor and weapons play a Important role in the Summons abilities. The Better Pdef you have on your Mystic the better the Pdef you have on your Devil.

A Veno's Pet Gains experience through Fighting and when it reaches a New lvl it gains all The HP it lost plus more from a Fight as well as new Pdef and attack Ranges. In order for a Mystic's Summons to gain these benefits we must resummon it every new lvl to keep it Current.

As for the worry about a Mystic Replacing a Veno..... Have No fear Mystic are not replacing anyone even with our AoE Heals and Pets/ Plants. We have Limits as to how many we can have out. The Plants themselves have a Limit on how long they ca be summoned and In use.

I prefer the Mystic over all because of it versatility and enjoy playing a SUPPORT role in a squad, if you look at the over all Skills and the way they are set up that is what a Mystic is a SUPPORT Class. We can heal faster yes, we can DD faster Yes But the price we pay for these is a Lower range of effect on said skills. Our Most Powerful Attack Skill takes 5 seconds to cast. Our res Buff that has a catch as well it only works when the Squad member is alive. Meaning that when they do Die it saves a Cleric from having to stop Healing the Main Tank aka a Barb or a BM or whatever during a fight.

For a Veno we can be a great benefit, While your Busy Tanking a Boss Like Suzerix or Farren or whomever We can assist you in healing your Herc, Walker or whatever pet you use. This freeing you to Cast poison Nova or Amplify Damage. Thus saving you valuable time.

Everyone here is looking at the So called Replacement value of a Mystic and Not seeing the benefits we can provide, I think this is wrong and needs to be thought out a little more on your behalf.

FallenSnow - Raging Tide wrote: »

the main fact for squads and especially for cleric is...
1. better DD then veno
2. rez buff for cleric
3. heals

1. Than a bad veno.
2. probably not a big issue to most clerics
3. harder to get healed when there's more than one healer in the squad, and this argument never worked for wizards, or psychics.

I think some people just have a self demoralizing attitude. They assume they aren't picked because of their class. Really; they might know you from one of their alts and just not like you. They may have got 30 replies for the position. They may already have a veno. They're probably tired as am I of all the worthless lazy venos. -that's the part we can work on.

FallenSnow - Raging Tide wrote: »

Mystics do more dmg then a veno. I'm pure AA on both and can compare.

What exactly are you comparing as if there's something to compare? Do mystic pets get reflect, howl, etc? Do Mystics get ironwood, and amp? Can mystic do great melee dmg? The best you can do is speculate based on observances, but there is no straight line of comparison.

If you want to troll do it somewhere else.

Do as you say.

I play alot on my Mystic and Cleric and hear alot lately "we better get archer or sin, no need for veno", "we better get a AOE DD than Veno, sin can tank" and then i know why i rarely get picked.

Is sin better AoE? Archers aren't always popular either since they slow things down by breaking up mobs under AoE. A lot can do with who you're already with.

The usuall demand for Venos is getting lower and lower.

There's never been great demand for venos, and we don't really need it. We're capable of soloing most things.

Since almost every new class is better than a veno.

Every class is better than another class at something including veno.

I said it even before, i talk as from my Clerics point of view, not as venos. Even i would prefer to have a mystic than a Veno (alone due rez buff, support heals for myself and faster channel at heads with aoe..who knows what happens, especially since noobs reach lvl100 and you can get still killed due their mistake).

And for a while people thought they needed 2 clerics for C2D69, and now 2 for BH 3-3: we find out differently. You speak from an inadequate cleric's view when it comes to healing support, and an inadequate veno's when it comes to faster channeling at heads. Venos can hit 2 heads at a time using ranged pet and bow or melee / mag.

Cause every meele dubass can tank bosses in fc after lvl90, then better to get second sin which makes the run 15min faster (and there are mass of them).

Sin isn't gonna save 15m on a 30m run.

What kind of melee dmg are you talking about? None of melee pets can tank and do great dmg at the same time. And even with a scorpion its nothing compareable to BM/Archer with aps or Sin. A herc makes more dmg due reflect then with bash lvl5.
I never said amp is useless. But Iroonwood makes 30% debuff. That can a cleric as well. so nothing special here. Mystic has just more use in squads then Veno, thats what i'm trying to say.
You dont know me, you dont know how i play, yet you did offend me in your previous post, so yes i consider it as trolling.
I never said that sins have great AOE i said as in a example that every melee can tank fc at high level. There is no use for Veno with Herc/Pet in squad mode nowadays, I never said anything about the topic Veno-Solo. Here is a thread of "feeling replaced" so i guess its about SQUAD mode.
The only thing that Veno can highlight from others is amp.
I saw mystic at heads. WAY faster channel. I cant use any Bow, i m pure build, so dont know about it. But here is a comparison of main skills.

Venomancer: Venomous Scarab
Range 25.5 meters
Mana 68.8
Channel 1.5 seconds
Cast 1.0 seconds
Cooldown 1.0 seconds

Mystic:
Range 26.5 meters
Mana 132
Channel 1.0 seconds
Cast 1.0 seconds
Cooldown 1.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Magic instrument

That makes a mystic in overall 1/3 faster then a veno. Btw. Mystics AOE skill needs also only 1sec channel, while Venos 2,5seconds.

thumbs wrote: »

What exactly are you comparing as if there's something to compare? Do mystic pets get reflect, howl, etc? Do Mystics get ironwood, and amp? Can mystic do great melee dmg? The best you can do is speculate based on observances, but there is no straight line of comparison.



Do as you say.



Is sin better AoE? Archers aren't always popular either since they slow things down by breaking up mobs under AoE. A lot can do with who you're already with.



There's never been great demand for venos, and we don't really need it. We're capable of soloing most things.



Every class is better than another class at something including veno.




And for a while people thought they needed 2 clerics for C2D69, and now 2 for BH 3-3: we find out differently. You speak from an inadequate cleric's view when it comes to healing support, and an inadequate veno's when it comes to faster channeling at heads. Venos can hit 2 heads at a time using ranged pet and bow or melee / mag.




Sin isn't gonna save 15m on a 30m run.