Beyond 5aps stupidity - Learn the game!~

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Agreed. It was more for the case wherein the attack aura is not there. Wave 2 BH...most ppl dont even bother with the auras other than Mana 2, if an archer is there, and chi 1. Some squads just feel bean digging is a waste of time and do it without auras altogether. Wave 3 BH, people seem happy with just mana and chi. Attack would be added advantage :P.

In the event, we get do select auras, its usually mana first and then chi. Only then it goes into attack. So the situation wherein a veno can possibly out damage a wizard in DB would be when no attack aura is present or the veno times the spark+AOE when the aura is not active (that few little seconds). Overall its not worth the trouble to be honest.

yeah, beans for w2 are not really required in an average 10x squad
w2 is kinda of a joke tbh, i remember doing it with sin,bm,veno,psy (me) and cleric
the barb was an alt and just buffed us, sin lured.
well, the sin was OP but still...

i have no clue about how a veno aoes constantly, if someone posts the cycle i could do some calculations xd

but tbh, while the seal/freeze is nice i think that the psy aoe stun, freeze, freeze is more yummy xd

alpha male works same as roar it RESETS AGGRO and leaves a bit aggro on the caster...
therefore when you aoe after roar/alpha male you will most likely have aggro...

tweaks lives in his/her own perfect little world...

why do veno run ticket?
- they are fast even without spamming genie skills or pots
- pet can kill a mob while the veno takes drops/digs chests

what do they do when aoeing?
- aoe debuff -> noxious -> nova -> noxious -> venomous/ironwood on a mob attacking cleric/wiz/psy
- send bm chi for dragon
- always have bm&barb brambled
- catch the boss it if needed, deal with it till the party is done with the mobs, amp, debuff it

b:chuckle

some wizzy just drop a BT on tweakz' head. That'll shut 'em up b:bye

tweakz wrote: »

Wiz has distance shrink, Sin: wind push, BM summer sprint, Barb true form, etc.

I think you're playing the wrong class?


Where's Befuddling, Myriad and Malefic?
Aoe Debuff = myriad. They forgot befuddling, although the damage on that sucks, I miss most of the mobs anyway, being pure arcane. Why would you malefic crush? Last I checked, mobs didn't have mana, making it a waste of 2 sparks... fail b:bye


No, use it for Nova
See above comment about malefic crush


During wave 3?
During all waves... Why not keep them brambled?

Honestly, I play a veno, I know the strengths and limitations. Yeah, it can hit hard. Yeah, demon can cycle AoEs fairly well. But the damage is nowhere near that of a wizzy or psy in AoE. Stop being a complete **** and learn to play yourself.

Towards the end, you do, but at the start they'll be still too low to have enough sparks for all that.
Malefic crush does do a lot of damage, but it's also just going to miss a lot. Until chi stops being an issue, I'd much rather use ○Crush Vigor...

fully buffed with RB aura & in foxform, even a squishy veno has decent defense

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

yeah, beans for w2 are not really required in an average 10x squad
w2 is kinda of a joke tbh, i remember doing it with sin,bm,veno,psy (me) and cleric
the barb was an alt and just buffed us, sin lured.
well, the sin was OP but still...

i have no clue about how a veno aoes constantly, if someone posts the cycle i could do some calculations xd

but tbh, while the seal/freeze is nice i think that the psy aoe stun, freeze, freeze is more yummy xd

I can't find the post, but I have tweakz own combo written down when I was trying to do math (failed at it)

Noxious Gas -> Parasitic Nova -> Noxious Gas -> Fox Form -> Befuddling Mist -> Fox Myriad -> Malefic Crush -> Befuddling Mist -> Fox Form -> Noxious Gas

All to combat Wiz's DB (you can use sage/demon/lvl 10 or whatever I guess o_O)

Have at it.

Ladydeadlock - Heavens Tear wrote: »

WTF is up with Beffudling Mist? It's not an AoE, it deals **** damage. Sure it has its uses in certain occasions, but I don't see how it fit in the whole oh-veno's-mighty-aoe-circle?

It's an aoe. It's just a fan aoe not a full circle. It won't hit nearly as many targets as other aoes for that reason alone.

Tweakz, you are telling ppl to learn the game, why wouldnt you do it and stop babbling this nonsense on forums? No, no matter how you try to twist and twist, veno wont do better aoe damage than wizards or psys do, simple fact. You know, the R9 veno I talked about, we finished 1 delta after our wizzie 1k`d, yes, wizzie took aggro and got 1k`d. That means wizzie, with inferior gear, took aggro over veno on aoe situation, who would have guessed?

Barb running ticket quests? You serious? It might work in gamma with good BMs, I remember those were done that way but I wouldnt want to see how "average" geared squads will handle delta that way. The first waves till first boss are easy, die fast, anybody could tank those, though boss wave doesnt usually die in few seconds. Sure, BM could tank and live that, what they couldnt do is keep aggro, not even half the time. So either highest DD(Wizzie) has to be able to tank or barb has to be there and squad should send the most useless aoe DD(veno) to run the quests. Why not BM? HF + Stun + Decent aoe dmg, `nuff said? And I seem to run delta lots with venos, even if I prefer sin over most venos as I honestly love BP, keeps my charm from ticking, even if kitty plays a hero and likes to arma lots.

I just find it hard to believe Tweakz is still around. b:shocked Thats some dedication.

Probably not the absolute best chain, but here's something for you to play with (not what I use, just trying to maximize AOE usage):

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ais0waOsSe7NdDlNOHFWYTctdEFHRGVPenhyeUt3VWc&hl=en&authkey=CPLL15YJ

A couple quick notes:

- this assumes you have infinite chi so if you're trying this without high chi auras, you'll need either spark pots, cloud eruption, or some other way to get chi fast- especially between the Nova and Maelefic Crush (alternatively, you can move M.C. to the second time you're in fox form.). If you're sage, you have a chance at keeping your chi up between them.

- skills, channel time, and APS are all reflective of demon, -65% channel, magic sword with 0 -int; YMMV

- this ignores rounding errors, delay in skills firing, delay in target switching, and constanly being in either the channel or casting state - best case scenario (Particularly, there is the problem of the fox form skills needing to be cast in melee range. The spreadsheet ignores any time it takes to run to a mob.)

My own observations:

- Yes, Nova and M.Crush can be quite powerful. The problem with them is that they each cost 2 sparks and have a 30 second cooldown. Also, if you have the demon version of nova, it can sometimes cause more harm than good. The amp that comes with demon Nova doesn't stack with a BM's HF and from what I can tell, neither overwrites the other (haven't been able to verify that). Timing it can be a bit of a challenge since you don't want your 30% amp to block a HF. Regardless of the cost and effects, with a 30 second cooldown, they are far from spammable.

- While Nova and M.Crush are in cooldown, veno's only have 3 other aoe's:

-- Noxious Gas: Great spell. Spam it as much as possible.
-- Myriad Rainbow (Foxform): Can be great or can be ****. The debuffs are random, but very nice when they proc, but with a 20 second cooldown and requiring foxform, it's hardly spamable.
-- Befuddling Mist: Directional aoe that reduces accuracy. This can go either way. I know people who love it and who hate it. If you have melee mobs and the barb/BM has no trouble keeping aggro, it'd be fine to use it as the aggro generated from bramble isn't much. In some runs, you may have an inexperienced barb and/or and overpowered wizard. In this case, you may want to only use Befuddling when the wiz has aggro (letting bramble add aggro when the barb/BM has it and reducing accuracy so the poor wiz who's has to tank the entire wave). If you have archer type mobs, the reduced accuracy is great. Unfortunately, if those mobs are out of BB range, generally so are you. Possibly the best thing about Befuddling is it's spammability, with a cooldown of only 3 seconds compared to (at best) 5 for nox. But unless you have a very high p.attack, you won't be doing a whole lot of damage with the spell or between it either.

The biggest problem I find with Befuddling is the lack of other things to do while in fox. Most likely, you'll have M.Crush and Myriad on cooldown, leaving you only single target attacks that won't do much damage unless you've heavily developed your p.attack, which most venos don't focus on.

Personally, I find it more effective to stay in mage for for most of the time. If there are ranged mobs that decide to stay out of the zhen spot, focus nox/lucky/ironwood/venomous on them. I'll consider dropping to fox for things like maelefic crush and especially for fox myriad, but in practice, I find I get more damage output if just red spark my nox/nova/nox combo. If anything, going down to fox for maelefic crush seemed to slow me down.


TBH, I'm perfectly happy to run happy valley tickets in the first couple waves. I can generally finish all the runs and even dig a chest or two and have my pet kill a mob before anyone asks me to come back on the second wave. I don't see it as being the lowest DD kicked from the zen party (may or may not be true). I see it as being the one who can get the job done fastest. Even if veno > wiz, veno + wiz is greater than either. Having the faster runner go is more efficient over all.

If you're only going to wave 2 or 3 for bh, you shouldn't need to run the happy valley tickets.

If you're going past wave 3 and you need everyone at the choke point during the first two waves, there's probably something wrong with your squad.

/$0.02

@Tweakz
I am not gonna sit and explain all the points you mentioned in response to my post.

The fact that wizards almost always end with the mobs clearly shows who does the max damage over time. Sure you might steal every now and then and wizards would even like it at times (less mobs wailing on them), but in the end they return to the wizard for a reason.

Sure other AoE DDs can go dig beans/run tickets/etc and am sure many would love to do it too. Fact is veno's are generally faster than them, despite all the speed skills they have, as already mentioned by everyone. So might as well have them get all the beans asap and join the entire group.

if you want to stand and AoE DD the mobs in waves, be my guest. Am sure the wizard/archer/psychic would be more than happy to go and dig beans and save up on
charm/pots/repairs/ammo/etc.

Request to RBers with Tweakz: Maybe you guys should ask the wizard/archer/psy next time to go dig beans on the first two waves. Let Tweakz be the AoE DDer for the first two waves. Pretty sure he/she would be more than happy

WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide wrote: »

Regenbogen, i love your sig, and i remember those times, sucks that they're gone b:sad

and seriously, if someone sees a thread by tweakz, why do they even open it? personally, i opt that we don't quote, read, or open anything said by tweakz, to insult, or to use as reference until he/she/it puts his/her/its main character as her/her/its forum avatar. why not let us know who you are ingame? clearly you already have a faction, so we can't hurt ya there. somehow ya get squads, i can't even awnser how that's possible, but still, we can't hurt ya there either. you can blacklist, block, and report any of us to a gm and get us atleast a temp ban fer spamming your whisper chat, so, can't touch ya there either. and i assume you think yer good at pvp, so what do ya have ta worry about? some of us would just like ta know what server yer on, so we can avoid you ingame. or join your faction, i mean lets face it, if we see any variation of the word "tweakz" we're gonna leave the faction anyway, so what does it matter? we just don't wanna squad with you ingame so we dun have ta debate ingame too, so just tell us already.

so how bout it everyone? we just stonewall tweakz on the forums till she/he/it tells us the server and name he/she/it uses?

HT, and their forum name is their server username.. when I go do my rounds checking shops, usually before I go to bed, in town I recall seeing him at the south arch watcher of the earth.

WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide wrote: »

and seriously, if someone sees a thread by tweakz, why do they even open it?

Same reason why everyone rubbernecks when passing a car crash. Morbid curiosity...hoping to catch a glimpse of a dead body.

Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Same reason why everyone rubbernecks when passing a car crash. Morbid curiosity...hoping to catch a glimpse of a dead body.

Guilty. b:cry