Beyond 5aps stupidity - Learn the game!~
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Depending on circumstances. There's no real fair way to compare in all ways. All the negative responses just confirm what I already know: that people in general are ignorant to Veno's capability as an AoE dd.
Except every person who has or currently does play a veno knows you're as full of **** as a christmas turkey.Some people risk to employ me
Some people live to destroy me
Either way they die0 -
Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »Agreed. It was more for the case wherein the attack aura is not there. Wave 2 BH...most ppl dont even bother with the auras other than Mana 2, if an archer is there, and chi 1. Some squads just feel bean digging is a waste of time and do it without auras altogether. Wave 3 BH, people seem happy with just mana and chi. Attack would be added advantage :P.
In the event, we get do select auras, its usually mana first and then chi. Only then it goes into attack. So the situation wherein a veno can possibly out damage a wizard in DB would be when no attack aura is present or the veno times the spark+AOE when the aura is not active (that few little seconds). Overall its not worth the trouble to be honest.
yeah, beans for w2 are not really required in an average 10x squad
w2 is kinda of a joke tbh, i remember doing it with sin,bm,veno,psy (me) and cleric
the barb was an alt and just buffed us, sin lured.
well, the sin was OP but still...
i have no clue about how a veno aoes constantly, if someone posts the cycle i could do some calculations xd
but tbh, while the seal/freeze is nice i think that the psy aoe stun, freeze, freeze is more yummy xd0 -
One thing you have alpha male wrong ..it's not to hold aggro it's just there to pull aggro off some one taking a lot of hits for a short time so they can get their bearings back.Hell the barb should carry it as well..I do on mine.0
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alpha male works same as roar it RESETS AGGRO and leaves a bit aggro on the caster...
therefore when you aoe after roar/alpha male you will most likely have aggro...
tweaks lives in his/her own perfect little world...
why do veno run ticket?
- they are fast even without spamming genie skills or pots
- pet can kill a mob while the veno takes drops/digs chests
what do they do when aoeing?
- aoe debuff -> noxious -> nova -> noxious -> venomous/ironwood on a mob attacking cleric/wiz/psy
- send bm chi for dragon
- always have bm&barb brambled
- catch the boss it if needed, deal with it till the party is done with the mobs, amp, debuff it
b:chucklei am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss0 -
Xarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »Except every person who has or currently does play a veno knows you're as full of **** as a christmas turkey.
i've never even been in rebirth, and the notion that i could out-DD a dedicated DD class is ridiculous to me already anyway.
PW classes are each designed for some role or other --- we can argue about how well they're designed, but it's obvious they have specific purposes in mind --- and the venomancer quite clearly is meant as a support jack-of-all-trades. which means that it CAN'T do everything it does all that well, or it'd be an unbalanced game breaker. sure, i can DD --- but if i could DD better than classes meant to specialize in DDing specifically, why do i have all these support skills?
besides, if i could DD particularly well, you'd think i'd be able to pull aggro from something scarier than my own pet. nope. my 'sin can do that sort of thing; my archer's getting there; and my wiz i have to be careful with already. but if (okay... when b:surrender) i get unwanted aggro on my veno, it's because i blundered into something i shouldn't have that nobody else had attacked yet.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Heaven's Tear alts: KenLubin, Sou_Hon, JudyCaraco --- level 5x chars.0 -
some wizzy just drop a BT on tweakz' head. That'll shut 'em up b:byeb:pleasedb:pleasedb:pleased0
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Regenbogen - Lost City wrote: »tweaks lives in his/her own perfect little world...
Might be nice if you could actually make a point.why do veno run ticket?
- they are fast even without spamming genie skills or pots
Wiz has distance shrink, Sin: wind push, BM summer sprint, Barb true form, etc.- pet can kill a mob while the veno takes drops/digs chests
Done while all are digging: not during runs.what do they do when aoeing?
- aoe debuff -> noxious -> nova -> noxious -> venomous/ironwood on a mob attacking cleric/wiz/psy
Where's Befuddling, Myriad and Malefic?- send bm chi for dragon
No, use it for Nova- always have bm&barb brambled
During wave 3?Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
Wiz has distance shrink, Sin: wind push, BM summer sprint, Barb true form, etc.
I think you're playing the wrong class?
Where's Befuddling, Myriad and Malefic?
Aoe Debuff = myriad. They forgot befuddling, although the damage on that sucks, I miss most of the mobs anyway, being pure arcane. Why would you malefic crush? Last I checked, mobs didn't have mana, making it a waste of 2 sparks... fail b:bye
No, use it for Nova
See above comment about malefic crush
During wave 3?
During all waves... Why not keep them brambled?
Honestly, I play a veno, I know the strengths and limitations. Yeah, it can hit hard. Yeah, demon can cycle AoEs fairly well. But the damage is nowhere near that of a wizzy or psy in AoE. Stop being a complete **** and learn to play yourself.b:pleasedb:pleasedb:pleased0 -
Synta - Dreamweaver wrote: »Honestly, I play a veno, I know the strengths and limitations. Yeah, it can hit hard. Yeah, demon can cycle AoEs fairly well. But the damage is nowhere near that of a wizzy or psy in AoE. Stop being a complete **** and learn to play yourself.
Malefic still does decent aoe damage for an AA veno...o_o Doesn't JUST drain mana...And it takes up the time between going to fox form, using Myriad, and waiting to be able to change back to humanoid. AND chi shouldn't be an issue, if you have chi auras up.Katzyn, level 101 Demon Veno
Kylenea, level 99 Demon Cleric
ForestSonata, level 6x Mystic
Proud wifeh of Yudai
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
~Courtesy of the amazing Forsakenx~0 -
Towards the end, you do, but at the start they'll be still too low to have enough sparks for all that.
Malefic crush does do a lot of damage, but it's also just going to miss a lot. Until chi stops being an issue, I'd much rather use ○Crush Vigor...b:pleasedb:pleasedb:pleased0 -
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ba7dc4812680c860
Wiz: 12894-18107
14971-17609 (with equivalently upgraded wiz rank 8 weap)
Veno: 12631-17844
Only thing you've proved is that you'd prolly die in a few hits as soon as you got aggro, looking at that defence of yours... Now WHY would you even consider to wanna out-DD a wiz? Personally I like when the aggro is kept off me. Saves charms ticks and repairs.*Semi retired*0 -
fully buffed with RB aura & in foxform, even a squishy veno has decent defenseb:pleasedb:pleasedb:pleased0
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Synta - Dreamweaver wrote: »fully buffed with RB aura & in foxform, even a squishy veno has decent defense
Yes, decent defense but not decent enough to hold waves of mobs. Wizards has the advantage of their pdef buff (and yet still they tend to die sometimes). And you won't spend too much time in fox form, that's not where most of your damage come from.
Just saying.. If you planing to out dding everyone, make sure you can tank the mobs.. And I doubt you will with the low base hp/pdef.*Semi retired*0 -
ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »yeah, beans for w2 are not really required in an average 10x squad
w2 is kinda of a joke tbh, i remember doing it with sin,bm,veno,psy (me) and cleric
the barb was an alt and just buffed us, sin lured.
well, the sin was OP but still...
i have no clue about how a veno aoes constantly, if someone posts the cycle i could do some calculations xd
but tbh, while the seal/freeze is nice i think that the psy aoe stun, freeze, freeze is more yummy xd
I can't find the post, but I have tweakz own combo written down when I was trying to do math (failed at it)
Noxious Gas -> Parasitic Nova -> Noxious Gas -> Fox Form -> Befuddling Mist -> Fox Myriad -> Malefic Crush -> Befuddling Mist -> Fox Form -> Noxious Gas
All to combat Wiz's DB (you can use sage/demon/lvl 10 or whatever I guess o_O)
Have at it.[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
Where's Befuddling, Myriad and Malefic?
WTF is up with Beffudling Mist? It's not an AoE, it deals **** damage. Sure it has its uses in certain occasions, but I don't see how it fit in the whole oh-veno's-mighty-aoe-circle?
Myriad is great, but it only has a chance of certain debuffs. The DoTs are however low damage wise.
Malefic. Idk, it has high dmg, but common your accuracy is ****. And it's 2 sparks, why the hell would you waste two sparks on malefic instead of using nova? Even with decent chi aura.. You cast nova, 30 sec cooldown, you need to chi up for malefic, then you cast malefic, then when cd of nova is done, and.. where are your dam sparks?! Prolly not done yet.*Semi retired*0 -
Ladydeadlock - Heavens Tear wrote: »WTF is up with Beffudling Mist? It's not an AoE, it deals **** damage. Sure it has its uses in certain occasions, but I don't see how it fit in the whole oh-veno's-mighty-aoe-circle?
It's an aoe. It's just a fan aoe not a full circle. It won't hit nearly as many targets as other aoes for that reason alone.0 -
Ladydeadlock - Heavens Tear wrote: »Only thing you've proved is that you'd prolly die in a few hits as soon as you got aggro, looking at that defence of yours... Now WHY would you even consider to wanna out-DD a wiz? Personally I like when the aggro is kept off me. Saves charms ticks and repairs.
That's not my only equipment set up oh ignorant one. Try looking at the context it was posted in.WTF is up with Beffudling Mist? It's not an AoE, it deals **** damage. Sure it has its uses in certain occasions, but I don't see how it fit in the whole oh-veno's-mighty-aoe-circle?
It is AoE dumbbutt: try learning game instead of spouting nonsense.base physical damage plus 2281.0 plus 800 and reduces the
target's accuracy by 70% for 8 seconds
-For non spark phys aoe with 70% acc reduction and chi gain: it's much better than just sitting there like a dumbbutt.Myriad is great, but it only has a chance of certain debuffs. The DoTs are however low damage wise.
Dragon's breath is great but what does it do for other players dmg? How great is it against mag resist or fire immune? Can you reposition it in mid battle to hit archers and melee w/ 15m range?Malefic. Idk, it has high dmg, but common your accuracy is ****. And it's 2 sparks, why the hell would you waste two sparks on malefic instead of using nova? Even with decent chi aura.. You cast nova, 30 sec cooldown, you need to chi up for malefic, then you cast malefic, then when cd of nova is done, and.. where are your dam sparks?! Prolly not done yet.
If you haven't done a successful RB, wth are you doing commenting here? You have no freakin clue what you're on about. Stand there in RB waiting for CDs like a dumbbutt, come to forum to troll rather than learn or share actual info. You're a dime a dozen and the reason venos have trouble getting their RB culti's done.Laranda - Heavens Tear wrote: »It's an aoe. It's just a fan aoe not a full circle. It won't hit nearly as many targets as other aoes for that reason alone.
-Nice to see an actual contributor! Yes, it doesn't hit many but if someone has a better option while in fox before and or after Malefic ; pls share - someone already did with demon Crush Vigor, but we're not all demon.Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.0 -
Tweakz, you are telling ppl to learn the game, why wouldnt you do it and stop babbling this nonsense on forums? No, no matter how you try to twist and twist, veno wont do better aoe damage than wizards or psys do, simple fact. You know, the R9 veno I talked about, we finished 1 delta after our wizzie 1k`d, yes, wizzie took aggro and got 1k`d. That means wizzie, with inferior gear, took aggro over veno on aoe situation, who would have guessed?
Barb running ticket quests? You serious? It might work in gamma with good BMs, I remember those were done that way but I wouldnt want to see how "average" geared squads will handle delta that way. The first waves till first boss are easy, die fast, anybody could tank those, though boss wave doesnt usually die in few seconds. Sure, BM could tank and live that, what they couldnt do is keep aggro, not even half the time. So either highest DD(Wizzie) has to be able to tank or barb has to be there and squad should send the most useless aoe DD(veno) to run the quests. Why not BM? HF + Stun + Decent aoe dmg, `nuff said? And I seem to run delta lots with venos, even if I prefer sin over most venos as I honestly love BP, keeps my charm from ticking, even if kitty plays a hero and likes to arma lots.Trolling Sid since So Hot
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tweakz, if you think a veno can AoE-outDD a wiz in DB you have serious head issues that need the right kind of medication.____________
I have as much authority as the Pope, I just don't have as many people who believe it.
George Carlin
~I listen to hardcore FIGHT songs when I visit the forum, just to get into the proper mood~
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]0 -
I just find it hard to believe Tweakz is still around. b:shocked Thats some dedication.tatuaje: grinding mobs and zhenning ???
frankieraye:All right, I admit it, it's a bit retro. lol.0 -
I know you do, I've been in squads with you =/That's not my only equipment set up oh ignorant one. Try looking at the context it was posted in.
I responed to what you post, that was the build you show, your other gear set most probably decreases your magical atk otherwise you would have shown an other gear set up. So I'm not the one taking stuff out of context, I look at your whole build not just your attack. If you use something else in RB, then you should have provided with an other link.It is AoE dumbbutt: try learning game instead of spouting nonsense.
-For non spark phys aoe with 70% acc reduction and chi gain: it's much better than just sitting there like a dumbbutt.
Yes, it's a frontal aoe. My mistake, I haven't used it an a long time. However, your accuracy is still low and the damage of the skill is aswell ridiculously low. If you really think that your malee aoe > BIDS, then only dumbbutt here is you. You just totally ignore a fking lot of factors.
Errr.. Since we were discussion AoE skills ONLY, I was argumenting about the total waste of sparks on malefic crush when you could have saved those for nova (mind you, you were saying veno could stay consta aoe with decent chi-up. ). Both malefic and nova uses 2 sparks and has 30 sec cooldown. Now I can't calculate exact how much time it does to refill your chi again, however there are other chi consuming skills such as Ironwood and Myriad (as well as chi-giving skills too, especially venomous scarab with 25% [I know you're sage, so I am going by sage skills]).If you haven't done a successful RB, wth are you doing commenting here? You have no freakin clue what you're on about. Stand there in RB waiting for CDs like a dumbbutt, come to forum to troll rather than learn or share actual info. You're a dime a dozen and the reason venos have trouble getting their RB culti's done.
Now I don't remember exact what skill combo you posted, but consider going noxious gas -> nova (sparks consumed, 30 sec cd stared) -> some other skill in between -> fox form, myriad (consumes 20 chi), befuddling (gives some chi). Now you may or may not have two sparks again. If you started off with full chi then yes, you might have 2 two sparks, if not then.. you still have to WAIT or continue spamming befuddling (which is **** dmg). Then after you cast malefic and go back to human form, even if the CD of nova is done, you WON'T have enough sparks to cast it.. Which makes it delayed, and IMO total waste of sparks because you would deal significant more damage with nova plus the seal is far more useful than malefic.
So no this isn't about standing and waiting on CD, I'm using attacks in human form which does far more damage than any malee attack (because veno's malee atk dmg is on based phy atk + X additional dmg, while most human form skills are base + xxx% + x additional dmg, and the base mag atk is by FAR higher than physical [which is a also a major factor WHY BIDS>Veno AoEs]) and not wasting sparks on malefic crush. You'll do far more damage atking one mob with one-target skills in human form combined with noxious and nova (which means you also will have to save sparks not to delay the casting). And the main point is that... Veno's aoe, especially in fox form is NO way more superior than BIDS.
You just ignore way too many factors (God, even had to explain the basics for you because you just totally ignored it) and even if there was some validity in prefering malefic crush over nova, you must really be out of your mind thinking that veno's aoe our better than BIDS.
P.S, I got my culti done quite early because I wasn't ******** with the squad about who should stay to AoE and who should do the quest running.
*Semi retired*0 -
Probably not the absolute best chain, but here's something for you to play with (not what I use, just trying to maximize AOE usage):
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ais0waOsSe7NdDlNOHFWYTctdEFHRGVPenhyeUt3VWc&hl=en&authkey=CPLL15YJ
A couple quick notes:
- this assumes you have infinite chi so if you're trying this without high chi auras, you'll need either spark pots, cloud eruption, or some other way to get chi fast- especially between the Nova and Maelefic Crush (alternatively, you can move M.C. to the second time you're in fox form.). If you're sage, you have a chance at keeping your chi up between them.
- skills, channel time, and APS are all reflective of demon, -65% channel, magic sword with 0 -int; YMMV
- this ignores rounding errors, delay in skills firing, delay in target switching, and constanly being in either the channel or casting state - best case scenario (Particularly, there is the problem of the fox form skills needing to be cast in melee range. The spreadsheet ignores any time it takes to run to a mob.)
My own observations:
- Yes, Nova and M.Crush can be quite powerful. The problem with them is that they each cost 2 sparks and have a 30 second cooldown. Also, if you have the demon version of nova, it can sometimes cause more harm than good. The amp that comes with demon Nova doesn't stack with a BM's HF and from what I can tell, neither overwrites the other (haven't been able to verify that). Timing it can be a bit of a challenge since you don't want your 30% amp to block a HF. Regardless of the cost and effects, with a 30 second cooldown, they are far from spammable.
- While Nova and M.Crush are in cooldown, veno's only have 3 other aoe's:
-- Noxious Gas: Great spell. Spam it as much as possible.
-- Myriad Rainbow (Foxform): Can be great or can be ****. The debuffs are random, but very nice when they proc, but with a 20 second cooldown and requiring foxform, it's hardly spamable.
-- Befuddling Mist: Directional aoe that reduces accuracy. This can go either way. I know people who love it and who hate it. If you have melee mobs and the barb/BM has no trouble keeping aggro, it'd be fine to use it as the aggro generated from bramble isn't much. In some runs, you may have an inexperienced barb and/or and overpowered wizard. In this case, you may want to only use Befuddling when the wiz has aggro (letting bramble add aggro when the barb/BM has it and reducing accuracy so the poor wiz who's has to tank the entire wave). If you have archer type mobs, the reduced accuracy is great. Unfortunately, if those mobs are out of BB range, generally so are you. Possibly the best thing about Befuddling is it's spammability, with a cooldown of only 3 seconds compared to (at best) 5 for nox. But unless you have a very high p.attack, you won't be doing a whole lot of damage with the spell or between it either.
The biggest problem I find with Befuddling is the lack of other things to do while in fox. Most likely, you'll have M.Crush and Myriad on cooldown, leaving you only single target attacks that won't do much damage unless you've heavily developed your p.attack, which most venos don't focus on.
Personally, I find it more effective to stay in mage for for most of the time. If there are ranged mobs that decide to stay out of the zhen spot, focus nox/lucky/ironwood/venomous on them. I'll consider dropping to fox for things like maelefic crush and especially for fox myriad, but in practice, I find I get more damage output if just red spark my nox/nova/nox combo. If anything, going down to fox for maelefic crush seemed to slow me down.
TBH, I'm perfectly happy to run happy valley tickets in the first couple waves. I can generally finish all the runs and even dig a chest or two and have my pet kill a mob before anyone asks me to come back on the second wave. I don't see it as being the lowest DD kicked from the zen party (may or may not be true). I see it as being the one who can get the job done fastest. Even if veno > wiz, veno + wiz is greater than either. Having the faster runner go is more efficient over all.
If you're only going to wave 2 or 3 for bh, you shouldn't need to run the happy valley tickets.
If you're going past wave 3 and you need everyone at the choke point during the first two waves, there's probably something wrong with your squad.
/$0.020 -
aww~ hurts so much when people try to discuss about a serious aoe chain for veno...
using foxform skills...not worth switching to foxform and back...b:shocked
you will do more damage just by simply castingsingle target skills in between b:surrenderi am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss0 -
@Tweakz
I am not gonna sit and explain all the points you mentioned in response to my post.
The fact that wizards almost always end with the mobs clearly shows who does the max damage over time. Sure you might steal every now and then and wizards would even like it at times (less mobs wailing on them), but in the end they return to the wizard for a reason.
Sure other AoE DDs can go dig beans/run tickets/etc and am sure many would love to do it too. Fact is veno's are generally faster than them, despite all the speed skills they have, as already mentioned by everyone. So might as well have them get all the beans asap and join the entire group.
if you want to stand and AoE DD the mobs in waves, be my guest. Am sure the wizard/archer/psychic would be more than happy to go and dig beans and save up on
charm/pots/repairs/ammo/etc.
Request to RBers with Tweakz: Maybe you guys should ask the wizard/archer/psy next time to go dig beans on the first two waves. Let Tweakz be the AoE DDer for the first two waves. Pretty sure he/she would be more than happy 0 -
Regenbogen, i love your sig, and i remember those times, sucks that they're gone b:sad
and seriously, if someone sees a thread by tweakz, why do they even open it? personally, i opt that we don't quote, read, or open anything said by tweakz, to insult, or to use as reference until he/she/it puts his/her/its main character as her/her/its forum avatar. why not let us know who you are ingame? clearly you already have a faction, so we can't hurt ya there. somehow ya get squads, i can't even awnser how that's possible, but still, we can't hurt ya there either. you can blacklist, block, and report any of us to a gm and get us atleast a temp ban fer spamming your whisper chat, so, can't touch ya there either. and i assume you think yer good at pvp, so what do ya have ta worry about? some of us would just like ta know what server yer on, so we can avoid you ingame. or join your faction, i mean lets face it, if we see any variation of the word "tweakz" we're gonna leave the faction anyway, so what does it matter? we just don't wanna squad with you ingame so we dun have ta debate ingame too, so just tell us already.
so how bout it everyone? we just stonewall tweakz on the forums till she/he/it tells us the server and name he/she/it uses?[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
light armor rules, and JOKERZz are the best. shaff, you meh dogg. Neko, you smexy redhead you, yer my favorite veno out there. Evo, yer straight up crazy. Lillie, thanks fer giving LA cerics a good name. hask, what can't you tank? Kyo, yer wizard biuld sucks, and yer obsession with aps annoys me, but eveni will admit, yer a frackin pro. Chick, our dad's would be great friends in rl, and we'd have so much fun messin with them. fer all the rest of the clan, *salutes* at yer service doggs.b:cool0 -
HT, and their forum name is their server username.. when I go do my rounds checking shops, usually before I go to bed, in town I recall seeing him at the south arch watcher of the earth.WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide wrote: »Regenbogen, i love your sig, and i remember those times, sucks that they're gone b:sad
and seriously, if someone sees a thread by tweakz, why do they even open it? personally, i opt that we don't quote, read, or open anything said by tweakz, to insult, or to use as reference until he/she/it puts his/her/its main character as her/her/its forum avatar. why not let us know who you are ingame? clearly you already have a faction, so we can't hurt ya there. somehow ya get squads, i can't even awnser how that's possible, but still, we can't hurt ya there either. you can blacklist, block, and report any of us to a gm and get us atleast a temp ban fer spamming your whisper chat, so, can't touch ya there either. and i assume you think yer good at pvp, so what do ya have ta worry about? some of us would just like ta know what server yer on, so we can avoid you ingame. or join your faction, i mean lets face it, if we see any variation of the word "tweakz" we're gonna leave the faction anyway, so what does it matter? we just don't wanna squad with you ingame so we dun have ta debate ingame too, so just tell us already.
so how bout it everyone? we just stonewall tweakz on the forums till she/he/it tells us the server and name he/she/it uses?0 -
WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide wrote: »
so how bout it everyone? we just stonewall tweakz on the forums till she/he/it tells us the server and name he/she/it uses?
tweakz is just that. tweakz, veno, ht server, lvl 102.*Semi retired*0 -
WhiteVodoo - Raging Tide wrote: »and seriously, if someone sees a thread by tweakz, why do they even open it?
Same reason why everyone rubbernecks when passing a car crash. Morbid curiosity...hoping to catch a glimpse of a dead body.Some people risk to employ me
Some people live to destroy me
Either way they die0 -
And this is why I never find pure magic venoes smart players.
Veno is teh last to aggwo or deal damage b:bye0 -
Guilty. b:cryXarathox - Dreamweaver wrote: »Same reason why everyone rubbernecks when passing a car crash. Morbid curiosity...hoping to catch a glimpse of a dead body.0
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