Beyond 5aps stupidity - Learn the game!~

BarbLord - Raging Tide

People just ignore tweakz he has been a troll on these forums ever since the forums were made or for a very long time anyway
Think I saw him trolling back in 2009 when I was still relatively new to the forums
And he most likely already did it before

And if hes not a troll, hes just an ignorant idiot

Badger - Dreamweaver

But but i got my post up to a whopping 28 b:sad

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

That guy who grew up without learning that not all attention is good? Yea that's tweakz

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

That guy who grew up without learning that not all attention is good? Yea that's tweakz

The tweakz mindset: "Oh look, my thread is up to 4 pages already! These people really love me!"

Alasen - Heavens Tear

I love how he called ME a troll.... yet everyone in here thinks he's a idiot.... lol

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

tweakz wrote: »

Requesting help: I'm grinding a group of mobs next to a boss you happen to want help with. Don't just ask me for help: offer me something for doing it! You're not just asking me to drop what I'm doing, lose profits, and increase chance of death: I also could lose that spot you self centered pos! Furthermore, I'm asked to help on that boss freakin' daily! Don't beg me in faction either! - I've played a few characters and never had a problem finding help locally by grinding in a spot near where I needed it for up to 1/2 hour. Other people seem to think faction mates should drop what they're doing and come from the far side of the map to help them for nothing (Done that a few times: got them in squad that was already forming there, and took off).

the OP seemed to have a point up until this. Then i stopped reading.

tweakz

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Not everyone at 100 has a +10 TT99 green sword, and taking the physical damage

Wth does TT99 Green Sword have to do with anything? Mine is a Mirage which has +MP, +mag -big deal.

and the AOE's of those dinos, as well as the swords and those mobs that usually are pulled one by one to prevent knocking down BB

They never get BB knocked down when a mid one is hit with Noxious. It almost never happens except when a BM butts in and tries to lure.

, is going to necessitate a wizard that isn't decked out in Rank 9 to use pots or kill their charm, if you're doing the tweakz wet dream of a cleric->wiz->veno squad.

If you invest in charms instead of gear: deal with it.

I've never seen a squad lure mobs one at a time. Ever. I've seen them lure the two main seal mobs that seal almost every time when ranged to keep BB up, then doing AOE on the last 4. This is generally what happens.

Still too damned slow, and it's not the Blade Runners that hit hard, and they don't knock down BB when lured right.

Personally, I mostly do BH Metal just my wife and our alts

'k, then go back to my comment about how that gimps your learning, FL, etc which shows in your response about the Blade Runners.

, but when I do a random squad I don't care as long as we get it done in a fairly quick manner. Your problem is you are terrible at adjusting to squads and want things done only your way. In that case, get some friends who play your way and go only with them.

Actually there are faster ways like porting straight to boss or pulling more than one group. Pulling single mobs is too much of a compromise and it represents the ignorance and stupidity people have over 5aps which is the topic of the thread. Blade Runners typically die in a few AoE hits (that can be all at once) and they don't even hit hard if they do hit.

This is an MMO video game. People ask for help generally when they can't do things that most people their level can't do or would take too long to attempt. If they are just asking for help doing normal "kill 30 mobs" quest, then let them do it their own self, but usually it's a boss or something they want help with. Again, don't join a faction with lowbies and new players if you aren't willing to help people and want compensation for it. As you can see I'm ignoring the real life analogy because the game is not equivalent to beggars on the street trying to survive.

Beggars on the street aren't trying to survive: they're swindling. Most of then people that donate to them are worse off than they are. Did you see the movie recently "The Tourist"? The 2nd main character tells the tourist something like "ladies don't like questions", then when he tells her to go to dinner with him "too demanding". The final solution is "I'm going to have dinner if you care to join me". The point being made here is the way people approach others for help. It's not that I don't help people, I don't like how people expect it or make themselves a charity or ignore better avenues of help. The best help you can give is advice. Kinda like how you can catch a fish for a man and feed him for one day or teach him how to fish.

The least valuable player generally is the veno, especially if you get a squad that includes archer->wiz / archer->psy or wiz->psy.

Only if that veno is lazy or under equipped, and if so: then they should do the runs if needed. Wiz's Dragon's Breath is not that great. Base Matk every 3 secs regardless of channeling + a meager set amount. That's a whole whopping 2 weak hits within a Sin's Lv. 10 Sub Sea Strike's 8 secs or typical HF. Consider the dmg a veno can do with Nova (+300% weapon dmg), Noxious (+200% weapon dmg) during that Sea Strike/ HF time. Then there's Myriad which hits some with Armor Break / Mind Break, and Malefic Crush for phys AoE. A pet on God's Eye helps also. A wiz that can hold aggro in RB typically has Sage DB and it's because of the stuns.

If you don't believe me, try to get in a squad in place of the other classes who do better, more constant AOE's than a veno does.

With decent chi aura: veno can do constant AoE, and regardless: Wiz's constant AoE is very weak.

If you want to be more valued in a squad, pick a better AOE DD class. Venos are less needed than before (read world chat lately for what they spend time looking for?), so it's kind of astonishing that someone playing a veno as their main is being this arrogant.

I have a 98 wiz, I much prefer AoE with veno. Hail Storm sucks compared to Noxious, Dragon's Breath kills too slow, Will of Phoenix is awkward or wrong for AoE use in squads, and the rest of the AoE skills gobble chi which could be otherwise used for MP recovery. You might have an argument with Psychics, but the wiz is not so advantaged over a veno unless you like potting constantly.

I'm more concerned about the players themselves rather than the class -part of the point of this thread. If you want to talk arrogance: Look at how you're trying to instruct me with your self imposed limited knowledge of BH metal. There's a difference between giving advice and acting like a know it all that doesn't. I've at least considered others ways, and tried them. With more classes and skills coming: we're moving far away from classes having specific jobs and roles, unless you want to be one that still thinks they should have a melee class tank the bosses for their FB59.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

Wth does TT99 Green Sword have to do with anything? Mine is a Mirage which has +MP, +mag -big deal.

That was just to rub it in.. :P

They never get BB knocked down when a mid one is hit with Noxious. It almost never happens except when a BM butts in and tries to lure.

Except that really has nothing to do with pointing out how it's done in most BH Metal's..

If you invest in charms instead of gear: deal with it.

This is why no one bothers taking your advice -- why should someone invest in a charm for a fricken BH metal because tweakz wants more crappy essences? Deal with it yourself and just solo the thing, use up as much charm as you like, then solo Snakefist since you outdamage a 5 APS person.

Still too damned slow, and it's not the Blade Runners that hit hard, and they don't knock down BB when lured right.

That's nice, but again, this is just how squads do it. Most of us already know how to lure without getting BB knocked down.

'k, then go back to my comment about how that gimps your learning, FL, etc which shows in your response about the Blade Runners.

Actually there are faster ways like porting straight to boss or pulling more than one group. Pulling single mobs is too much of a compromise and it represents the ignorance and stupidity people have over 5aps which is the topic of the thread. Blade Runners typically die in a few AoE hits (that can be all at once) and they don't even hit hard if they do hit.

To reiterate, if doing something the pace of an entire squad is too slow or too dumb for you, and doesn't **** up someone else's charm or pots enough, simply do one on your own. Someone 5 APS, especially a sin, is going to take down a group of those mobs faster than you and would likely use up less resources doing it.

Beggars on the street aren't trying to survive: they're swindling. Most of then people that donate to them are worse off than they are. Did you see the movie recently "The Tourist"? The 2nd main character tells the tourist something like "ladies don't like questions", then when he tells her to go to dinner with him "too demanding". The final solution is "I'm going to have dinner if you care to join me". The point being made here is the way people approach others for help. It's not that I don't help people, I don't like how people expect it or make themselves a charity or ignore better avenues of help. The best help you can give is advice. Kinda like how you can catch a fish for a man and feed him for one day or teach him how to fish.

Yeah yeah, you're full of excessively simple and overly used aphorisms, but you lack the practicality not to QQ over something this easy to figure out.

Only if that veno is lazy or under equipped, and if so: then they should do the runs if needed. Wiz's Dragon's Breath is not that great. Base Matk every 3 secs regardless of channeling + a meager set amount. That's a whole whopping 2 weak hits within a Sin's Lv. 10 Sub Sea Strike's 8 secs or typical HF. Consider the dmg a veno can do with Nova (+300% weapon dmg), Noxious (+200% weapon dmg) during that Sea Strike/ HF time. Then there's Myriad which hits some with Armor Break / Mind Break, and Malefic Crush for phys AoE. A pet on God's Eye helps also. A wiz that can hold aggro in RB typically has Sage DB and it's because of the stuns.

Imagine how your wet dream of a Metal squad that has a wiz veno and cleric doesn't have HF or subsea, and imagine how low the chances are for myriad to hit with both armor and mental break. So when you get back to normal damage that's done (nova is good damage but not great enough for how much you brag about it) charms tick like hell, the wizard likely dies (since you're not going to hold aggro) and it's a complete waste. For rebirth, it's laughable you even think you outdamage one (hey wow I can noxious in 2 seconds, then I can nova in 3, then I can pretend myriad does that much damage on [?] mobs, then I get to wait 30 seconds for nova to cooldown, yay, oh wait, wizard's already hit 10 times w/DB by the time that 30 seconds has passed, and that little damage you might have outdid the wiz on for 2 hits vanished on the 3rd/4th DB tick), but then again you obviously just like reading your own text and admiring sayings like you're actually saying something smart, yet not.

With decent chi aura: veno can do constant AoE, and regardless: Wiz's constant AoE is very weak.

With a decent chi aura, which doesn't likely come until well into a full rebirth.. you still don't come close to outdamaging a wizard in that instance.

I have a 98 wiz, I much prefer AoE with veno. Hail Storm sucks compared to Noxious, Dragon's Breath kills too slow, Will of Phoenix is awkward or wrong for AoE use in squads, and the rest of the AoE skills gobble chi which could be otherwise used for MP recovery. You might have an argument with Psychics, but the wiz is not so advantaged over a veno unless you like potting constantly.

I've had a 100 wiz too, for over a year, along with a 100 and 91 veno. Dragons breath kills slow if coupled with a veno. I prefer my wiz to be paired with an archer or a psychic. They better compliment the long term AOE damage that a veno won't do.

I'm more concerned about the players themselves rather than the class -part of the point of this thread. If you want to talk arrogance: Look at how you're trying to instruct me with your self imposed limited knowledge of BH metal. There's a difference between giving advice and acting like a know it all that doesn't. I've at least considered others ways, and tried them. With more classes and skills coming: we're moving far away from classes having specific jobs and roles, unless you want to be one that still thinks they should have a melee class tank the bosses for their FB59.

Actually I was not instructing you on how to do BH metal, I was educating you on how people generally do it, which you hilariously confused with how I'm telling you how to do your bh's. I actually like AOEing them all, and it does work for some squads. However, for a rather large sum it simply doesn't, so I don't go all out telling squads how to do things, nor do I make stupid long rants about people being stupid because they won't play your way. You need to get over the fact that I don't care about educating someone who seems rather religiously set in their ways. You have zero compromise for anyone else, this is why you need to just solo both rebirth and BH metal, because obviously your sentiments toward the damage you do is greatly overrated, at the same time your demand for others is greatly exaggerated. Or maybe find a single player game.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

lol @ tweakz thinking a veno outdamages a mage in rebirth.


Mage can drop **** rock, BIDS, and that alone will do more damage than you can do in 2 minutes.

anwynd

why are you all feeding one of the worst trolls on the forum each post in a trolls thread gives them an **** lolb:avoid

LadyMaraJade - Sanctuary

*Yawns* are we done yet

Conavar - Heavens Tear

tweakz wrote: »

'

Any class can run Happy Valley adequately, and most 100+ BMs do not out AoE me. If they were so great: why is there a lot of talk about BMs needing Alpha Male for RB? The current trend is for BMs to gimp their AoE for APS.

To Help keep the agro off the real DD's ( Mostly Wizzies but can also be a highly refined Archer )

Never had to worry about keeping agro off a Veno TBH

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Conavar - Heavens Tear wrote: »

To Help keep the agro off the real DD's ( Mostly Wizzies but can also be a highly refined Archer )

Never had to worry about keeping agro off a Veno TBH

Yup, although more often than not when I'm on my BM I use it to pull mobs off the barb when a new wave is coming, especially on waves 3 and 9, and on a boss wave when it might be dangerous to get BB knocked down (BM alpha, barb ream boss, run away with it while squad finishes rest of the wave). It's hilarious that tweakz thinks it's to alpha mobs off the veno [I've done full RB's with +12 venos and near max channeling.. still the wiz or psy and on the rare occasion archer got aggro, but never the veno] and that it also has anything to do with APS. b:laugh

Can't he rename these threads to "how much I fail in PWI"?

AnimaBlanc - Sanctuary

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Can't he rename these threads to "how much I fail in PWI"?

No, that would require common sense and him admitting he's been horribly wrong in ALOT of things.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

boss drops: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/mob/24566

so on average ~957k each time u kill it.
u also have a chance for an ether

well, i have to admit, if u do it in ~20min it's not bad.
it's pretty good actually.

eek i forgot that those where the squad drops, not the drops 1 person will get.

so yeah, even if it's duo warsong, 6min nirvana is 12x more profitable
6x if it's solo

Hunnybunney - Harshlands

purple

ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear

Occasionally tweak needs to hop onto the forums, drop his pants, and wave his peen at the crowd.

You shouldn't take it personally - sometimes he'll do it to an empty room.

Once you realize this, you learn that his "signal to noise ratio" is so high that the nuggets of intelligence he has are too sparse to be worth digging thru the mountain of **** to get to.

Kind of like undigested corn.


IJS

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

ImNotFeelnIt - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Occasionally tweak needs to hop onto the forums, drop his pants, and wave his peen at the crowd.

You shouldn't take it personally - sometimes he'll do it to an empty room.

Once you realize this, you learn that his "signal to noise ratio" is so high that the nuggets of intelligence he has are too sparse to be worth digging thru the mountain of **** to get to.

Kind of like undigested corn.


IJS

loooooool

tweakz

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

lol @ tweakz thinking a veno outdamages a mage in rebirth.


Mage can drop **** rock, BIDS, and that alone will do more damage than you can do in 2 minutes.

Wiz

Mountain's Seize:
Channel 5.0 seconds
Cast 1.4 seconds

BIDS:
Channel 4.0 seconds
Cast 1.6 seconds

Veno

Nova:
Channel 3.0 seconds
Cast 1.2 seconds

Noxious:
Channel 2.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds

-Like I said: unless they're potting constantly since Sutra, and either of those Wiz skills take 2 sparks each. Most Wiz's aren't going to bother which is more understandable than Venos that don't use half their AoEs.


**

Funny, in-game players are more receptive and agreeable. The forum has just attracted the worst and turned away most of the people that actually would use it for info.

Rawrgh - Raging Tide

I don't get it, what's your point?

That it takes an extra 4 seconds for a mage? sounds fine to me seeing as how it'll do 10x more damage.


Plain and simple, if you think a veno outdamages a mage, you're an idiot.

Synta - Dreamweaver

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

I don't get it, what's your point?

That it takes an extra 4 seconds for a mage? sounds fine to me seeing as how it'll do 10x more damage.


Plain and simple, if you think a veno outdamages a mage, you're an idiot.

[as a veno] I agree b:bye

WnbTank - Archosaur

I being the go to barb, when it comes to deltas on my server, say something. Only 1 veno eves has taken aggro from me in delta with aoe, her weapon? R9 +12 and it was closer to the end of delta where chi aura started to get some more lvls, not on the early stages. I dont lose my aggro too often but wizzies and psys grab it if we kill waves slowly, I cant pull off good enough constant aoe damage to hold it, yet I heavily doubt your veno could take it. I tell you, no way veno out dmg wizzie or psy in delta.

Ps. Rawrgh, he is an idiot, I wonder why I even bother.

tweakz

Rawrgh - Raging Tide wrote: »

I don't get it, what's your point?

That it takes an extra 4 seconds for a mage? sounds fine to me seeing as how it'll do 10x more damage.


Plain and simple, if you think a veno outdamages a mage, you're an idiot.

you wont argue numbers properly (10x? -lol 'k), so how about my ability to double other DD's PQ#2 score back in the day when I was merely 95 with inferior weapon and they were 99-102 even giving them a big head start? Why when I put on survival gear: I'm still able to get and keep aggro from most wiz's in RB? It also doesn't take just 4 extra seconds: it takes chi which auras don't provide fast enough to fit into Sutra for 2 decent AoE's, and w/o Sutra + pot: they're lucky if they can fit one in a single HF.

WnbTank - Archosaur wrote: »

I being the go to barb, when it comes to deltas on my server, say something. Only 1 veno eves has taken aggro from me in delta with aoe, her weapon? R9 +12 and it was closer to the end of delta where chi aura started to get some more lvls, not on the early stages. I dont lose my aggro too often but wizzies and psys grab it if we kill waves slowly, I cant pull off good enough constant aoe damage to hold it, yet I heavily doubt your veno could take it. I tell you, no way veno out dmg wizzie or psy in delta.

Ps. Rawrgh, he is an idiot, I wonder why I even bother.

Yeah, some barbs build up aggro before pulling to BB, and there are a few that can hold aggro on a single mob, but never seen it done on multiple mobs by a Barb. Axe BMs back in the day were much better for that.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

tweakz wrote: »

Wiz

Mountain's Seize:
Channel 5.0 seconds
Cast 1.4 seconds
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Damage: 500% weapon damage + 8400.0
2 sparks needed
AoE radius: 12m

BIDS:
Channel 4.0 seconds
Cast 1.6 seconds
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Damage: 500% weapon damage + 9649.9
2 sparks needed
AoE radius: 12m

Dragon's Breath
Channel: 1.2 seconds
Cooldown: 15 seconds
Damage: 4458.2 every 3 seconds
AoE radius: 12m[/b]

Veno

Nova:
Channel 3.0 seconds
Cast 1.2 seconds
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Damage: 300% weapon damage + 4564.9
2 Sparks needed
Aoe Radius: 12m

Noxious:
Channel 2.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown: 6 seconds
Damage: 200% weapon damage + 1504.1 + 1504.1 over 9 seconds(i.e. ~500 every 3 secs)
AoE Radius: 9.0 m

-Like I said: unless they're potting constantly since Sutra, and either of those Wiz skills take 2 sparks each. Most Wiz's aren't going to bother which is more understandable than Venos that don't use half their AoEs.


**

Funny, in-game players are more receptive and agreeable. The forum has just attracted the worst and turned away most of the people that actually would use it for info.

Not mentioned the "base magic damage" since its always factored.

Assuming same channeling, same base magic damage (which is never the case) and you both start at the same time, DB would have hit thrice before you hit a second noxious gas which makes your 200% weapon damage + 1504 wood DoT pretty much a non-factor.

You seriously even want me to go into the the damage DB wouldve done by the time you hit a second nova (after 30 seconds)?

Pretty sure the other skill descriptions speak for themselves in the damage department.

Youre still serious that a veno out damage's a mage?

I do not care about what you still think, but the damage values and skill characteristics would indeed be useful for other new gamers who might just look at this post.

Now if you want to out damage, you would be sparking and hitting your AOEs. I am guessing thats what you do in order to out damage a wiz who is in a DB. This is probably the only chance for a veno to get aggro of the mobs in RB. Question is, how many of them actually want to do it when you already have 2 powerful AoE DDs?

Note: This is not saying that venos are useless or anything or that BHs cant be done in a different way from the norm or how BH metal needs to be done. Just saying that wizard AoE skills outdamage veno AoE skills by far.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not mentioned the "base magic damage" since its always factored.

Assuming same channeling, same base magic damage (which is never the case) and you both start at the same time, DB would have hit thrice before you hit a second noxious gas which makes your 200% weapon damage + 1504 wood DoT pretty much a non-factor.

You seriously even want me to go into the the damage DB wouldve done by the time you hit a second nova (after 30 seconds)?

Pretty sure the other skill descriptions speak for themselves in the damage department.

Youre still serious that a veno out damage's a mage?

I do not care about what you still think, but the damage values and skill characteristics would indeed be useful for other new gamers who might just look at this post.

Now if you want to out damage, you would be sparking and hitting your AOEs. I am guessing thats what you do in order to out damage a wiz who is in a DB. This is probably the only chance for a veno to get aggro of the mobs in RB. Question is, how many of them actually want to do it when you already have 2 powerful AoE DDs?

Note: This is not saying that venos are useless or anything or that BHs cant be done in a different way from the norm or how BH metal needs to be done. Just saying that wizard AoE skills outdamage veno AoE skills by far.

the attack aura will overwrite the spark after some sec so the real spark duration wouldnt be that great. and the extra dmg will also be less xd

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

Tab in, now tab out. Scroll up, scroll down. Backspace, backspace. Tell us what you gonna do now.

Keep trollin' trollin' trollin' trollin'.

WnbTank - Archosaur

tweakz wrote: »

Yeah, some barbs build up aggro before pulling to BB, and there are a few that can hold aggro on a single mob, but never seen it done on multiple mobs by a Barb. Axe BMs back in the day were much better for that.

Bro, you idiot? Current BMs, most of them at least, go 3str 2dex per lvl build. Now you mind telling me exactly how does old school axe BM generate more aoe dmg? More dex = more crit = more dmg.

Now to the another idiotic point, barb being bad on aoe aggro? That is the only thing barbs aggro ability is somehow decent, single target? Not so much. Barb got pretty much limitless sparks in RB, they got 2 damn strong aoes, 1 pretty spammable aoe. Demon barb actually might out damage BMs aoe wise, strictly on RB situation. Cause thing is, I can demon spark, see myself close to full chi when invisibility is over and hit my aoes, having the boosted damage most BMs lack, unless they got ability to generate that much chi by just getting hit, lol. Sure, BMs bring more damage with their HF and they really arent far if any behind with aoe damage, just saying BMs are better for aggro control in Delta... Are you high?

Edit: Dunno bout the aura overwriting, I tried to test it but my sparks seemed to work just fine =/.

Elviron - Dreamweaver

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the attack aura will overwrite the spark after some sec so the real spark duration wouldnt be that great. and the extra dmg will also be less xd

Agreed. It was more for the case wherein the attack aura is not there. Wave 2 BH...most ppl dont even bother with the auras other than Mana 2, if an archer is there, and chi 1. Some squads just feel bean digging is a waste of time and do it without auras altogether. Wave 3 BH, people seem happy with just mana and chi. Attack would be added advantage :P.

In the event, we get do select auras, its usually mana first and then chi. Only then it goes into attack. So the situation wherein a veno can possibly out damage a wizard in DB would be when no attack aura is present or the veno times the spark+AOE when the aura is not active (that few little seconds). Overall its not worth the trouble to be honest.

tweakz

Elviron - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not mentioned the "base magic damage" since its always factored.

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=ba7dc4812680c860
Wiz: 12894-18107
14971-17609 (with equivalently upgraded wiz rank 8 weap)
Veno: 12631-17844

-Big difference?

Assuming same channeling, same base magic damage (which is never the case) and you both start at the same time, DB would have hit thrice before you hit a second noxious gas which makes your 200% weapon damage + 1504 wood DoT pretty much a non-factor.

DB doesn't factor channeling after it's initiated. Noxious -> Nova -> Noxious is more limited by CD which is a decent reason to exchange some channeling for survival. Noxious CD is only 6s for Sage and 5 for Demon. That puts 3 mag AoE's with weapon modifiers within the 9 secs 3 weak hits from DB would take.

You seriously even want me to go into the the damage DB wouldve done by the time you hit a second nova (after 30 seconds)?

You're seriously forgetting Veno's other AoE's which mix debuff, and phys that Wiz can't touch?

Youre still serious that a veno out damage's a mage?

Depending on circumstances. There's no real fair way to compare in all ways. All the negative responses just confirm what I already know: that people in general are ignorant to Veno's capability as an AoE dd.

I do not care about what you still think, but the damage values and skill characteristics would indeed be useful for other new gamers who might just look at this post.

Agreed, so lets give them some unbiased non trollish good resources:

http://www.ecatomb.net/pwi/skillpwi.php
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/

Now if you want to out damage, you would be sparking and hitting your AOEs.

Who sparks in RB after atk / MP auras -show of hands pls?

Note: This is not saying that venos are useless or anything or that BHs cant be done in a different way from the norm or how BH metal needs to be done. Just saying that wizard AoE skills outdamage veno AoE skills by far.

I don't disagree with that, but you cannot ignore the channel/ cast, spark consumption, AoE debuff or amp, and mix of phys/ mag AoE when it comes to practical AoE dps.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

Yup...

Axe BM's were never good for aggro control. Alpha sucks for keeping aggro. BM's and wizards do a ton more damage, but even so their damage+alpha still won't keep aggro off a wizard and never could, even doing **** damage and LA wiz or vit BM 2 years ago.

Barbs have several AOE aggro skills (roar alone is damn powerful) and attack skills which do in fact tend to work better in rebirth (especially with barbs who know how to properly use them) thanks to [?] mobs and reduced dmg. What's funny is my wiz at a mere 10-11k mag atk, then later when we upgraded to attack 2 or 3 for BH, didn't rip aggro from a barb as usually would.

In the case of fail barbs a veno like tweaks could throw off a nova and noxious, then maybe try to switch to fox to mist (**** dmg for a pure mag arcane veno, not to mention **** range) and myriad, but then still have to switch back to human for another noxious before switching back to fox to again try and mist/myriad some more. This amount of changing up, along with the shoddy damage both myriad and mist are going to do, by the time the veno hits with myriad and mist, the wizard already has 3 or 4 DB cycles in, and will have the aggro. (kind of repeating an earlier post of mine) The fact that he's even wasting time comparing noxious and nova only to ultis and not DB alone, not showing his ultimate plan on how to keep doing constant damage to keep up with a wizard, is a testament to similar ignorance about damage, exaggerating his own, and underrating another classes, is akin to comparing his damage to 5 APS. Nobody should listen to tweakz for advice.

(this does of course go along with the experience of playing both classes he's comparing -- 100 wiz, 100 veno/91 veno, and countless full rebirths that come from mainly my BM/wiz/cleric/100 veno)