If you knew now what you knew back then...

Chillum - Dreamweaver · November 2010

...would you still have chosen a Wizard?

This is a question I think about every now and again and to be honest, there is sufficient doubt that I would have.

Don't get me wrong, I like being a wizard.

I like how we are a ranged class and can bring up big numbers.

Pinging fireballs, rocks and spurts of water all over the place while barbs / BMs / Assassins run about trying to get the mob that we just pummelled.

I like how we can control targets with Force of Will, make 'em sleep with Soporific Whisper as well as beat a hasty retreat with Distance Shrink. When no one is around to help with Blackhole Devourer for an OHT daily, I just go and solo him with Force of Will and Will of the Phoenix playing big roles.

I like how we have a varied defence, albeit with a low amount of HP and that we can be a last gasp healer when the main cleric goes down.

We're loved in RB Gamma / Delta and FC to AOE mobs and get big EXP gain.

Here is where the but comes...

I like being able to farm my own gear (e.g. TT and Nirvana) and it becomes apparently clear that we are simply not the best of choices for this, essentially there are other classes far better at it than us.

I'm also a bit of a PvE addict and not a big fan of PvP. To be fair, perhaps if I did more research into the classes before diving in, I might have come to realise this.

I also hurt myself in the farming stakes as i'm factionless. I just prefer it that way and have a suspicion (perhaps irrationally) that they are more trouble than they're worth so I don't have the contacts that some might have.

Although you'll get many a person saying that packs / Tideborn "ruined" it for us (or indeed the game in general) I would have to say that yes, they played a role. However, with respect to PvE farming we were already becoming second choice before they came to be and the packs in my view accelerated the existing trend.

With regard to PvP balance, can't really comment on that directly though from reading the forum posts, some say it broke the balance, others say it didn't.

So, if I didn't pick wizard, what would I have gone as?

Therein lies the question! Are the alternatives that much greater than to negate the benefits of playing a wizard?

I've tried barb and was frankly amazed at the difference in survivability (duh!) to my wizard.

I have an assassin which is my second highest character. If i'm honest, I don't enjoy playing him as much as my wizard but I guess i'm working on him as a means to an end re: farming.

Melees in general will always need to run about to meet their target which can be a total pain especially with running mobs.

Clerics are always wanted in squads but I hate the aspect of it where people are always nagging you for things. That would drive me up the wall. As wizards, we don't tend to have this problem!

I suppose if I were to choose an alternative, it may well be archer. It's ranged but can be built to be pretty effective as melee as well.

So....

...what would you do?

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver · November 2010

if i knew back then what I knew now, I would have made a cleric to farm all my wiz gear then account stash it

Shevanel - Sanctuary · November 2010

I've enjoyed playing my character a lot. I like the fact that no one nags me for stuff (Would HATE to be a 5.0bm, Barb or cleric at end game).

I get to do my own thing. I am not worried about the pace in which I farm, it gets done no matter what.

I am part of a small group who squad for everything anytime, be it Nirvana, TT or BHs, so I still get my nirvana runs done.

Apart from that, playing a wizard is a lot of fun, and pvp wise, we really can be quite good.

I've played a cleric to 28, archer to 11 (turned into my bank) I have a 61 veno which kinda bores me and a 101 barb I can play (Not mine) which is kind of fun, but Im all about being a wizard..

Adroit - Lost City · November 2010

Mizuoni - Dreamweaver wrote: »

if i knew back then what I knew now, I would have made a cleric to farm all my wiz gear then account stash it

lmao I did it kinda reverse order. I played my mage forever, and when interval chars became the norm I ended up making a cleric, now I continue to farm with it.

Galox - Heavens Tear · November 2010

I might only be lv 73, and so some might argue it's early enough to re-roll, but I'd love to have a nice BM.

Asherkill - Raging Tide · November 2010

im glad i choose wiz even if it is not all looking to good for us. Kinda the reason i choose them was because not as many people play them because of there flaws. i would rather be one of the small population of wiz than the masive population of the other more popular classes.

Arganoth - Lost City · November 2010

Galox - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I might only be lv 73, and so some might argue it's early enough to re-roll, but I'd love to have a nice BM.

Stick with your wizard at least long enough to do two things: 79 skills and Frost City. The 80's have been MUCH more interesting with those two aforementioned things.

Chillum - Dreamweaver · November 2010

Asherkill - Raging Tide wrote: »

im glad i choose wiz even if it is not all looking to good for us. Kinda the reason i choose them was because not as many people play them because of there flaws. i would rather be one of the small population of wiz than the masive population of the other more popular classes.

I have to say, there is a part of me that likes to be different.

I remember when everyone was going for levelling as fast as possible (and still do I guess!) via BHs, RB Gamma and FCing.

I more or less deliberately stopped doing BHs except when they coincided with FBs, never stepped into Gamma or Delta as yet and did single digit FC runs. Partly due to the costs involved (wine fees, charm, apoth, HP/MP food etc) but also partly as I didn't see the point of bypassing a bunch of content, at least, for my first and original character.

Something that saddens me a little with current trends is that for melee characters (along with archers) it is the same identikit trodden path. i.e. towards fist / claw / dagger and interval. I like the idea of variety and the benefits that it brings though I do understand that the other options in comparison just aren't as appealling.

Although given the inherent issues re: farming gear, it means I end up buying the mats I need. To do that, I farm, farm and farm... HERBS! Devilwood! b:victory

Becoming a herb farmer and cat shop merchant more or less paid for all my skills. More or less have all the ones I want and some I don't (Sage Emberstorm!) It's paid for a lot of my crappy *** gear I have too.

I still have a personal goal to reach Rank 6 via regular means and not outright buying tokens -> rep badges. Still a shade under 10k rep to go though. Not going to quit until it's done!

XEmpressX - Heavens Tear · November 2010

Good thread topic.
I started off with a BM on the wrong server. It seems I don't really like PVP servers, so once i hit level 30, i ended up changing. Just couldn't see why anyone would put themselves through all that, leave town, die, leave town, die. No thanks!b:sad
So i changed servers to a nice friendly carebear PVE server and rolled a Veno, as I really liked the pet system. This was a lot of fun, but 60 levels later, *yawn*, tired of send pet, attack, heal pet, repeat.
So I thought, what would be a good challenge, look on the forums and some youtube videos, yes! I will roll a wizz!.
79 levels later and i still love it. You never know what will happen next. Everytime you leave town there is a chance you will die in some crazy spectacular way, which is usually caused by inattention, and not just because some level 100 kid enjoys camping lowbies ala PVP servers.
I also like the fact that there is hardly any of us still active, and so when i find one my level i always like to have a good talk with them about their gear and their plans. I have always found other wizzies really friendly so this is good.
So i will continue down this path, for as long as i still enjoy it, and hope to see more content that the game has to offer.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · November 2010

If I knew now what I knew back then... I would've looked for another game.

I don't choose a class to "win", I choose a class based on what I like... if the game has this class underpowered or unneeded (at least PvE farming wise) then the game simply sucks for me!

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · November 2010

The company I worked last with had a very decent wiz class that paid off having squishy because it could just about 100% of the time one shot not only mobs your own level but players your own level -- even more crazy damage in zerk mode. Here, the wizards need a multitude of hits, an extremely refined weapon, or a lucky crit, to one shot someone at their own level with that kind of accuracy. I tended to be biased toward ranged or ranged magic classes in most (MMO)RPGs I played, so wiz was the logical first class for me to pick about a year and a half ago when I first played. However, after a few rl friends that showed me the game did my FB19 I noticed I was squishy as **** against many of the mobs. I watched as every other wiz was kiting from mobs in order not to get beat down. That didn't agree at all with my style of play as I despise running from an average mob for any reason, no less grinding efficiency, so I picked veno and then cleric to duo with my veno from laptop a few days later. Later that year I decided to re-make wizard, ended up playing her to low 70s, then stopped again shortly after the Christmas event. Started her up again leveling along side my BM a few months later to 100 and used her in some TWs as well as Nirvana and COA and the results weren't very impressive to me so I ended up retiring her to being just a key and BH reward collector. My favorite instances with her was FF and WS. While RB was never boring it just was annoying having to pay for charms for a wiz to do that instance along side the costs for all my other chars' charms for that instance.

I guess if I had a second chance I might have just kept my psychic and leveled her more to be my dmg "mage" instead of turning her into an archer.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver · November 2010

when i made this wizard (my second)
i went through guides, and tried out many classes
barb was never interesting
bm was considered a bad dd, **** that (Axe-BM or gtfo times)
cleric cost killed me, and i hate to be cleric xD (I wanna go afk without killing the whole squad)

i lvled a Veno alongside as moneymaker for the wizard,
veno was a money machine, no pot cost etc.. stopped at lvl40 it was SOOO boring

and endgame veno's are just as boring to play as lvl40 venos, horrible class -- nvm

i would prolly reroll like 2 of my friends did,
Sin+Archer-Account, shared armor
the Archer in pure build for the fun parts like TW
and the Sin for farming

the cost of a bm scares me, so no-uh (Harder to get attack rate high, buy so many weapons and learn so many skills..)

...

one question to be answered
is a archer as much fun in tw as wizard is?? :O

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · November 2010

Most wizard mains I know, when making an alt, went to archer, psychic, or veno, when it came to classes they actually kept for a good long while instead of quitting at like level 10-50. With a psy or veno you could keep just about all the same gear which makes it cheaper if you're decked out with endgame stuff. It really comes down to if you can tolerate the style of play.

HexOmega - Dreamweaver · November 2010

psy are just as unwanted as wiz xD

even more when u look at delta

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · November 2010

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

If I knew now what I knew back then... I would've looked for another game.

I don't choose a class to "win", I choose a class based on what I like... if the game has this class underpowered or unneeded (at least PvE farming wise) then the game simply sucks for me!

Yep same here.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide · November 2010

hm..would I choose a diff class...

Blademaster? I absolutely love their abundance of stuns, and chain stunning sounds epic. A very well rounded class. I've played a bm, and the one thing I disliked the most was the complexity in distributing points for the right build, and that I had to run up to every mob to attack it. Plus I don't have $500 to spend on -int gear endgame.

Cleric? I've played the cleric to a reasonable lvl (72), and although I liked the class play style, I got absolutely tired of all the pm requests for help, people always begging me for things, and most of all, being blamed for squad wipes that were not my fault! We're not talking about, "oh actually that was your fault in a way," I'm talking about, the barb running at an AOE boss while I'm out of healing range, and before I can stack him. Some people are just stupid =\

Veno? Pets bore me. Don't wanna play a female char, and don't wanna get hit on by 40 year old fat men. Just no.

Barb? I play the wiz for the big numbers. Barb has an abundance of low numbers. Tanking seems cool enough, but that means I have to depend on the cleric to keep my alive and protect my exp %, and I've seen too many fail clerics to be willing to play a barb to any respectable lvl.

Archer? I severly dislike LA and needing ammo. I do like how archers can use both magic and phys attacks though. Good enough class, jus doesn't click for me though, don't know why.

Sin? Played one to 3X, and I hated it. They may be good at PvP, but in early-game, they BLOW in PvE. Was waaay too boring for me to play. Maybe if I felt like oracleing/hypering an acc to endgame I'd play a sin.

Psychic Best magical dps, some of the hardest hitting spells, an ulti that cost only 1 spark, dot's that do good damage, 2 stunning skills, soulburn, and multiple shield spells that make the class that much more interesting to play? We have a winner. Although I would never call the psychic the "wizzie replacement," I would defintly say they made us pretty obsolete in most situatuions.
I personally believe they surpass the wiz in PvP capability as well. Here in raging tide we have some pro psychics, and when played right, they frikkin WRECK.

TL:DR version: Psychic owns, wish I had lvl'd one of them to 80.

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · November 2010

I really like the idea behind the wiz -> a challenging class with great potential for dmg where you have to think a bit of what you are doing instead of simply spamming the same attack over and over again. Personally its said to see that PWI has gimped the wiz that hard and took away the role of main magic DD from the wiz. Furthermore its pretty annoying that being a wiz means that you are 2nd choice in most of the squads and killspeed in solo farming is limited compared to other classes ( hard and only endgame aoe grinding possible) + chances to farm gear are close to 0% without backup from some ingame friends. Its sad to see that a great class like the wiz are so hard to play without either extreme cashing or rolling an alt as money machine. To be honest i will stay with my wiz because i still believe that our class can survive in this game with the help of good friends but as said before its sad to see that this wont be the case without them. I guess i would also start a wiz again nowadays but knowing all that i would roll a money char first

greetz harm0wnie

jemima · November 2010

Played most of the classes, but found wizards the most interesting. This was also back when while wizzies were still wanted for DD and zhen, before zhen became to slow to level, and 5aps outdd's anything else.

If I knew now how things would change, I'd have gone cleric main back at the start, so I'd have something that stayed useful right through my time playing, instead of wasting all my time on first a veno, then having hercs come out and needing to spend $200 to be wanted for anything, then switching to mage, which is now unwanted after coming back from break.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · November 2010

Chillum - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Something that saddens me a little with current trends is that for melee characters (along with archers) it is the same identikit trodden path. i.e. towards fist / claw / dagger and interval. I like the idea of variety and the benefits that it brings though I do understand that the other options in comparison just aren't as appealling.

They are not as appealing because they are not as effective.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Here, the wizards need a multitude of hits, an extremely refined weapon, or a lucky crit, to one shot someone at their own level

+1 - the myth of the op-end game wizard needs to die. We suck at low levels at pvp and pve, we suck at end game pve, and outside of TW, we are mediocre at best in pvp, and we have to have much better gear to be mediocre. I don't know why anyone would ever roll a wizard if they wanted to pvp outside of TW.

And inside TW, archers are equally good.

Minimus - Sanctuary · November 2010

I did it the other way around. Playing the bm for 2 years but wiz became main. Have also a barb.
Wiz is never boring to play and I love him in TW/Pk. The wizards skill animations and sounds are awesome as well. I farm now the gear for my wiz with the bm tho. Barb was disappointing since there is less and less TW and I made him vitbuild with high magdef. If you choose a second class go for bm (expensive ), archer or sin.

Pearlwood - Lost City · November 2010

I love playing wizard. The complexities are endless. It's never boring. And, I like seeing big numbers pop up, and saving a squad member when the cleric goes down. If it was easy, why do it? That's why we're wizards. You think you have to be a wizard to create a powerful Sin? lol Think again. They get it all handed to them (not disrespecting Sins, but the facts are the facts). It actually takes creativity and skill to build an effective wizard, even if you're lucky enough to be a cash player. And, the challenge is even greater and rewarding if you're not. Look at some videos of the best wizards and you'll see why this class rules. And, just because the dev's have given us some competition, doesn't mean we're "gimped."

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver · November 2010

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

I love playing wizard. The complexities are endless. It's never boring. And, I like seeing big numbers pop up, and saving a squad member when the cleric goes down. If it was easy, why do it? That's why we're wizards. You think you have to be a wizard to create powerful Sin? lol Think again. They get it all handed to them (not disrespecting Sins, but the facts are the facts). It actually takes creativity and skill to build an effective wizard, even if you're lucky enough to be a cash player. And, the challenge is even greater and rewarding if you're not. Look at some videos of the best wizards and you'll see why this class rules. And, just because the dev's have given us some competition, doesn't mean we're "gimped."

but it is still frustrating to see that you wont stand a chance against most of the other classes in pvp if they are also played by a smart player

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear · November 2010

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

They are not as appealing because they are not as effective.

+1 - the myth of the op-end game wizard needs to die. We suck at low levels at pvp and pve, we suck at end game pve, and outside of TW, we are mediocre at best in pvp, and we have to have much better gear to be mediocre. I don't know why anyone would ever roll a wizard if they wanted to pvp outside of TW.

And inside TW, archers are equally good.

What kept making me come back to my wiz before retiring her for good was the fact that before psychics came out and -int gear was popular wizards were one of the go-to classes for damage, and not only that, but the way they casted spells looked pretty neat. I continued to level her after the fishy expansion because at the time TB's had no sage/demon and the psychic skills sucked, especially bubble of life. With it being improved, and with -int being the damage powerhouse, it's all but eliminated the wiz from everything but TW, PVP (except the -int classes, especially decent players), and some AOE instances. To be fair though, my ideal RB still includes, for DD's.. psychic, wiz, and archer, no veno or sin.

Pearlwood - Lost City · November 2010

HarmOwnie - Dreamweaver wrote: »

but it is still frustrating to see that you wont stand a chance against most of the other classes in pvp if they are also played by a smart player

OH really? Have you seen Adroit take out Calvin? Calvin just happens to be one of the most fearsome, expensively geared, BMs in Lost City right now. He's a nasty piece of work, and Adroit, with her less than snazzy gear, has defeated him more than once. Have you ever seen a 90 arcane wizard with 2500 HP tank out Nob with nobody left alive but the cleric? I have seen that personally.

You're right to be frustrated cause it's hard. But, you're wrong as to the rest of that statement.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · November 2010

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

OH really? Have you seen Adroit take out Calvin? Calvin just happens to be one of the most fearsome, expensively geared, BMs in Lost City right now. He's a nasty piece of work, and Adroit, with her less than snazzy gear, has defeated him more than once. Have you ever seen a 90 arcane wizard with 2500 HP tank out Nob with nobody left alive but the cleric? I have seen that personally.

You're right to be frustrated cause it's hard. But, you're wrong as to the rest of that statement.

You cannot compare PVP in air with PVP on ground. The BM in air has huge disadvantage.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · November 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You cannot compare PVP in air with PVP on ground. The BM in air has huge disadvantage.

+1 Never fight a bm on the ground.

And most of the time never 1 vs 1 an archer (or probably any ranged class) in the air. With better stuns than you have, you need holy path to get within 20m to sleep them.

And +1 to skills looking neat. Not practical, but still cool.

I would disagree with the literal meaning of the words "won't stand a chance". You always have a chance . . . .

It's just that more often than not your "chance" is limited to your critical hit % b:surrender

Failing that taking place within the first 30 seconds or so, far more than half the time you are dead meat to equally geared BMs, Archers and sins (and possibly nix venos).

Pearlwood - Lost City · November 2010

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

+1 Never fight a bm on the ground.

And most of the time never 1 vs 1 an archer (or probably any ranged class) in the air. With better stuns than you have, you need holy path to get within 20m to sleep them.

And +1 to skills looking neat. Not practical, but still cool.

I would disagree with the literal meaning of the words "won't stand a chance". You always have a chance . . . .

It's just that more often than not your "chance" is limited to your critical hit % b:surrender

Failing that taking place within the first 30 seconds or so, far more than half the time you are dead meat to equally geared BMs, Archers and sins (and possibly nix venos).

If you're depending upon crits for pvp, then I have to think that you're limiting your options. Crits are just frosting on the cake. Having said that, in my experience at least, archers are the most frustrating 1v1 because they're good snipers. Getting the jump on my opponent is the first priority as of this time because my HP level still renders me to be fairly squishy. But, most of my experience has been in the dungeons, so I'm still learning the darker arts of PVP.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur · November 2010

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

If you're depending upon crits for pvp, then I have to think that you're limiting your options.

. . . my HP level still renders me to be fairly squishy.

You will see - its not me limiting options, its the game. Without a crit, you have a rough time against any -interval class. Even with a crit, some can tank that outright or with genie or apoth.

And I have 6200 hp and 6k pdef self-buffed. Unless you are going to go around bugging a bm, barb and cleric for buffs before going out to pk (and rebuff every time you die), Its going to be hard for you to beat that. Not impossible, but hard.

Again, your HP doesn't render you squishy, its the composition of the game.

Pearlwood - Lost City · November 2010

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

You will see - its not me limiting options, its the game. Without a crit, you have a rough time against any -interval class. Even with a crit, some can tank that outright or with genie or apoth.

And I have 6200 hp and 6k pdef self-buffed. Unless you are going to go around bugging a bm, barb and cleric for buffs before going out to pk (and rebuff every time you die), Its going to be hard for you to beat that. Not impossible, but hard.

Again, your HP doesn't render you squishy, its the composition of the game.

Blood, you're a 100 wiz. That's a great achievment and a testament to your skill. I'll defer to your opinion because you have the credentials. But, I don't understand your statement, "your HP doesn't render you squishy, its the composition of the game." Please explain. I can only assume you mean that the wizard's limited survivability is built into the game and there is nothing any individual wizard can do about it. Am I right?

Borsuc - Raging Tide · November 2010

It's a combination of few control skills with long cooldowns, few survival skills, no anti-stun, and again, cooldowns, that makes us vulnerable, not just HP. The fact that our DPS isn't that great is also a problem: people are not afraid to tank our normal fast hits.

On the other hand, most of our targets tend to have awesome control skills, anti-stun and movement debuffs, basically nullifying anything that we can to control them (except for seal) while they can control us np.

prof · November 2010

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

+1 - the myth of the op-end game wizard needs to die. We suck at low levels at pvp and pve, we suck at end game pve, and outside of TW, we are mediocre at best in pvp, and we have to have much better gear to be mediocre. I don't know why anyone would ever roll a wizard if they wanted to pvp outside of TW.

you must be terrible

b:bye pve server

If you knew now what you knew back then...

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