If you knew now what you knew back then...

Pearlwood - Lost City

GiantSquidy - Heavens Tear wrote: »

dont think u get it yet..its kinda a end game wiz thing



^yeah thats why i rolled a sin b:victory

Maybe so, but the 90s were specifically mentioned, and whatever has made some of ya'll so cynical has not affected me. If you can't have fun as a wizard in the 90s, then roll another class immediately. If pulverizing 50 frost mobs with one frenzied MS shot for 89k on the aoe spread doesn't do it for you, then I cannot imagine that anything will. If that's the case, it's time to give up.

Rule - Heavens Tear

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Maybe so, but the 90s were specifically mentioned, and whatever has made some of ya'll so cynical has not affected me. If you can't have fun as a wizard in the 90s, then roll another class immediately. If pulverizing 50 frost mobs with one frenzied MS shot for 89k on the aoe spread doesn't do it for you, then I cannot imagine that anything will. If that's the case, it's time to give up.

The part that might not be obvious is that lev 100's don't DO frost runs for experience. Been there done that 300,000,000 times.

+10 - +12 endgame weapons, geared for TW or true PK, mobs or pve in general is for younger characters. 2x Lunar rings, all 99 gears, lunar capes, etc yadda yadda.

The things that occupy time at that point, BH's, PK, TW, farming nirvana\TT.
Of those instances TT\Nirvana is incredibly heavily biased against magic DD. There is just no way to compete for DPS with sins\bms\barbs\archers. Clerics have a use in the instances, veno's purge\amp has a use though not a lot, Psy's have much better DPS than wizzies. That leaves wizzies sitting least amongst the choices of unwanted classes in the instance.

So, that leaves us with BH\PK\TW. BH=BH rinse repeat x1b times.

REALLY makes you want to be good at PK\TW.

Pareee - Lost City

I agree with your post.

I also have a cleric, and it's not a fun as wiz. You're right about nagging, but mostly it's the pain of trying to heal a noob squad running into mobs they shouldn't and then being the one at fault.. or dying then being the one with exp loss and having to run back through the halls to find your squad again... etc etc etc.

My second choice is the veno. She is ranged when I want (which honestly I like probably because I'm use to it as wiz) or can be melee. I like the pets and have fun sending them on my errands. It's a learning process to know all the skills, as there are many more than wiz (between magic, melee, and pet skills/variety).

I didn't like the sin but mostly because she runs funny and the fashion is awkward... but lol.. other than that they are powerful.

Pearlwood - Lost City

Rule - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The part that might not be obvious is that lev 100's don't DO frost runs for experience. Been there done that 300,000,000 times.

+10 - +12 endgame weapons, geared for TW or true PK, mobs or pve in general is for younger characters. 2x Lunar rings, all 99 gears, lunar capes, etc yadda yadda.

The things that occupy time at that point, BH's, PK, TW, farming nirvana\TT.
Of those instances TT\Nirvana is incredibly heavily biased against magic DD. There is just no way to compete for DPS with sins\bms\barbs\archers. Clerics have a use in the instances, veno's purge\amp has a use though not a lot, Psy's have much better DPS than wizzies. That leaves wizzies sitting least amongst the choices of unwanted classes in the instance.

So, that leaves us with BH\PK\TW. BH=BH rinse repeat x1b times.

REALLY makes you want to be good at PK\TW.

Nice and clear. I don't completely understand your second paragraph though. What are you trying to say there...besides "mobs or pve in general is for younger characters"? Are u saying the desire to get endgame weps, etc...is misplaced? Are u not in possession of an endgame wep and gear? I would assume to make 100, you must have acquired some decent stuff.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Nice and clear. I don't completely understand your second paragraph though. What are you trying to say there...besides "mobs or pve in general is for younger characters"? Are u saying the desire to get endgame weps, etc...is misplaced? Are u not in possession of an endgame wep and gear? I would assume to make 100, you must have acquired some decent stuff.

Easy said. After lv.100 you don't need to level or grind for experience. That's mean younger character=lower levels. Your aim will be TW and PK. And there we are useless, maybe little bit except TW.
And grinding for gear is also VERY hard because we are unwanted and not necessary in squads.

Pearlwood - Lost City

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Easy said. After lv.100 you don't need to level or grind for experience. That's mean younger character=lower levels. Your aim will be TW and PK. And there we are useless, maybe little bit except TW.
And grinding for gear is also VERY hard because we are unwanted and not necessary in squads.

Mumintroll...if you're gonna troll, at least read the response you're trolling.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Mumintroll...if you're gonna troll, at least read the response you're trolling.

Grow up kid. If you want to say something,don't have to be mean. You acting like moron.

Pearlwood - Lost City

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Grow up kid. If you want to say something,don't have to be mean. You acting like moron.

Well if you're gonna post a response, at least address the response you're trolling. You provide no...I repeat...NO.. useful information for wizards. You're a cynical old dead-end wizard that wants to ruin it for wizards that are actually out there having fun. "Sad but true."

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Well if you're gonna post a response, at least address the response you're trolling. You provide no...I repeat...NO.. useful information for wizards. You're a cynical old dead-end wizard that wants to ruin it for wizards that are actually out there having fun. "Sad but true."

We can speak about it, when you will play 1 3/4 of year, without hyperstones. And when you will be at least lv.101. What do you know about wizards, practically NOTHING. You just think, you know something. You are totally inexperienced non end-game wizard.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

If you can't have fun as a wizard in the 90s, then roll another class immediately. If pulverizing 50 frost mobs with one frenzied MS shot for 89k on the aoe spread doesn't do it for you, then I cannot imagine that anything will. If that's the case, it's time to give up.

This is what he is saying, and what I was saying on other threads. Keep playing, and you will learn that "pulverizing 50 frost mobs with one frenzied MS shot for 89k on the aoe spread" doesn't do it for you at level 100 because you have done it 300k times at level 100. Hell, most have done it 300k times at level 95.

Noone is saying you shouldn't play the game the way you like. Or that you shouldn't play all the pve your little heart desires. Dowhatchalike.

But don't, based on that, tell people that wizards are this or aren't that. Especially those that have been there, done that, and are here to tell you that over all, wizards are a charity case for pve instances at 100+, and are mediocre at best in pk.

I don't know what Mtroll is talking about TW though. We need god-like gear to last 5 minutes in TW, but 99+ we are pretty fun (and useful) in TW . . . .

Pearlwood - Lost City

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

This is what he is saying, and what I was saying on other threads. Keep playing, and you will learn that "pulverizing 50 frost mobs with one frenzied MS shot for 89k on the aoe spread" doesn't do it for you at level 100 because you have done it 300k times at level 100. Hell, most have done it 300k times at level 95.

Noone is saying you shouldn't play the game the way you like. Or that you shouldn't play all the pve your little heart desires. Dowhatchalike.

But don't, based on that, tell people that wizards are this or aren't that. Especially those that have been there, done that, and are here to tell you that over all, wizards are a charity case for pve instances at 100+, and are mediocre at best in pk.

I don't know what Mtroll is talking about TW though. We need god-like gear to last 5 minutes in TW, but 99+ we are pretty fun (and useful) in TW . . . .

That's diplomatic enough. I don't deny that the desire to PVP bubbles under the surface and evidently comes to the surface at 100, for good reason. What I do disagree with is for old trolls to dissuade young wizards who are just having fun and looking for guidance. Telling them being a wizard is just a waste is nothing but stagnant, bitter, BS.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

That's diplomatic enough. I don't deny that the desire to PVP bubbles under the surface and evidently comes to the surface at 100, for good reason. What I do disagree with is for old trolls to dissuade young wizards who are just having fun and looking for guidance. Telling them being a wizard is just a waste is nothing but stagnant, bitter, BS.

Eh, I don't think they do that for the most part. If the truth is discouraging, do you want us to lie?

If they ask for an opinion, my point is usually to try to tell the truth so people know what to expect. If they ask for advice, I'll usually at least try to give them what I believe is the best way to cope with the fact that we suck, lol

Pearlwood - Lost City

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur wrote: »

Eh, I don't think they do that for the most part. If the truth is discouraging, do you want us to lie?

If they ask for an opinion, my point is usually to try to tell the truth so people know what to expect. If they ask for advice, I'll usually at least try to give them what I believe is the best way to cope with the fact that we suck, lol

There ya go again. Evidently, something about being a Wiz caused you to go all the way to 100.

Listen, noobs. Don't pay attention to the old trolls. If they give you a nugget of creative information, then be appreciative and learn from it. But, for the most part they are cynical old dead enders that either won't or cannot (for lack of actual creativity) tell you the facts.
I am level 94 and life as a wizard has been an incredibly fun experience. I'll let you know if that changes. Peace out.

qqsquid

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Easy said. After lv.100 you don't need to level or grind for experience. That's mean younger character=lower levels. Your aim will be TW and PK. And there we are useless, maybe little bit except TW.
And grinding for gear is also VERY hard because we are unwanted and not necessary in squads.

Actually, i think we're pretty good in TW and PK.
Farming gear (TT, nirvana) is the problem though...guess only thing you can do is find your own group of friends to farm with you or reroll a dps class.

Adroit - Lost City

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

There ya go again. Evidently, something about being a Wiz caused you to go all the way to 100.

Listen, noobs. Don't pay attention to the old trolls. If they give you a nugget of creative information, then be appreciative and learn from it. But, for the most part they are cynical old dead enders that either won't or cannot (for lack of actual creativity) tell you the facts.
I am level 94 and life as a wizard has been an incredibly fun experience. I'll let you know if that changes. Peace out.

you like your wizard because you have friends to carry you along. You would be happy as w/e class you played, but not everybody has friends that let you leach off them.. I had to make a cleric because my mage was so useless for farming, yes I could BEG my friends to bring me along, but who wants to be the annoying pest? The moral of the story is, if you like the wizard class.. you need to realize pve is going to be terrible as an end game wiz. You will probably need another char to do most of the pve for you, or I suppose you could cash shop or beg friends to help you out. Whatever you wanna do, at least all the new wizards are somewhat informed before they waste hundreds of millions of coins/hours into leveling/gearing/etc to find out wizards are not what they would have chosen if they had been better informed.

Pearlwood - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

you like your wizard because you have friends to carry you along. You would be happy as w/e class you played, but not everybody has friends that let you leach off them.. I had to make a cleric because my mage was so useless for farming, yes I could BEG my friends to bring me along, but who wants to be the annoying pest? The moral of the story is, if you like the wizard class.. you need to realize pve is going to be terrible as an end game wiz. You will probably need another char to do most of the pve for you, or I suppose you could cash shop or beg friends to help you out. Whatever you wanna do, at least all the new wizards are somewhat informed before they waste hundreds of millions of coins/hours into leveling/gearing/etc to find out wizards are not what they would have chosen if they had been better informed.

My friends don't carry me along. I carried them to where they are, and they love Pearl. I don't beg, I create. Big difference.

Pearlwood - Lost City

qqsquid wrote: »

Actually, i think we're pretty good in TW and PK.
Farming gear (TT, nirvana) is the problem though...guess only thing you can do is find your own group of friends to farm with you or reroll a dps class.

This person here has got a fairly accurate picture of the situation. Now, we take all our varied skills and almost unlimited potential and develop them in the direction we want to go. If its dps and Nirvana, then create ways with apoth pots, personality, and force of will (literally)... and just do it baby. If its PVP...wizards rule..if they want to....discipline is the key. TW is nerfed, but still exists....

C'mon people, high level Wizarding is still the place to be. Just cause it's hard is no excuse.

Adroit - Lost City

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

My friends don't carry me along. I carried them to where they are, and they love Pearl. I don't beg, I create. Big difference.

Now imagine "creating" on a class that was actually useful in an instance. Where would you be today? If you were an interval bm/sin etc.. how many more runs could you have done with your friends in the same amount of time if you had chosen a more useful pve class?

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Now imagine "creating" on a class that was actually useful in an instance. Where would you be today? If you were an interval bm/sin etc.. how many more runs could you have done with your friends in the same amount of time if you had chosen a more useful pve class?

Exactly. But there is no our bad choice, we choose magic class. That's totally dev. failure.

Pearlwood - Lost City

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Now imagine "creating" on a class that was actually useful in an instance. Where would you be today? If you were an interval bm/sin etc.. how many more runs could you have done with your friends in the same amount of time if you had chosen a more useful pve class?

I wouldn't need to be creative if I were an interval bm/sin etc....They've got it handed to them on a silver platter. We, on the other hand, have to mine for our skills and methods, and it makes us better players through the hardship. IMO

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

I wouldn't need to be creative if I were an interval bm/sin etc....They've got it handed to them on a silver platter. We, on the other hand, have to mine for our skills and methods, and it makes us better players through the hardship. IMO

I know many of them become obsessed with aps, even in pvp.

For example, last week's TW, stunned by a bm, they demon spark. They took the time to spark just for me in TW.

AD through the 2 seconds i was still stun, sleep them, then run away lol.

Adroit - Lost City

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

I wouldn't need to be creative if I were an interval bm/sin etc....They've got it handed to them on a silver platter. We, on the other hand, have to mine for our skills and methods, and it makes us better players through the hardship. IMO

Oh I agree that hardship makes us better players, but with no matter of creativity or intelligence will you be more useful than a monkey behind a 5.0 sin. I would imagine someone that is successful on a wizard would be amazing on an interval char, but even a "seasoned" wizard is useless in most instances. It's just a limitation of the class.

prof

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

We can speak about it, when you will play 1 3/4 of year, without hyperstones. And when you will be at least lv.101. What do you know about wizards, practically NOTHING. You just think, you know something. You are totally inexperienced non end-game wizard.

you can't talk, you're bad

reeeaaalll bad.

ask me how I know b:bye

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Oh I agree that hardship makes us better players, but with no matter of creativity or intelligence will you be more useful than a monkey behind a 5.0 sin. I would imagine someone that is successful on a wizard would be amazing on an interval char, but even a "seasoned" wizard is useless in most instances. It's just a limitation of the class.

I don't know if you've ever used a bm, likely not to a respectable level, but there is such a massive transition between a bm and a wizard.. I mean, there is no similarity what-so-ever in skills, skill use, or how you even use them.

I could not see a wizard just starting a bm and being good at it. the rarity of a good bm is about as rare as a good wizard.

Adroit - Lost City

prof wrote: »

you can't talk, you're bad

reeeaaalll bad.

ask me how I know b:bye



I don't know if you've ever used a bm, likely not to a respectable level, but there is such a massive transition between a bm and a wizard.. I mean, there is no similarity what-so-ever in skills, skill use, or how you even use them.

I could not see a wizard just starting a bm and being good at it. the rarity of a good bm is about as rare as a good wizard.

You could be right, I haven't really played bm much at all. But honestly, most of this game is understanding what to do (what the role of your class) and whatnot.. the muscle memory wouldn't take long to get. Just by pvp'ing against other classes you get to know what works and what doesn't.. know basically what all the skills do and what are useful etc. Might be a bit of a transition, but most the hard work is already done just by playing the game. Really just a guess, haven't played much of other classes.. but I can't really imagine any class being that incredibly difficult to play in an mmo.

Fleuri - Sanctuary

If I recall correctly, wizards have several uses in instances:

AoE source
DPH source
alt Healer
alt Tank (especially: pulling and/or holding aggro off cleric when cleric gets healing aggro or when real tank dies, but also tanking certain ranged elemental bosses)
alt DPS
And even that frostblade you feel so bad about helps squads.

Meanwhile, 5aps is good, but sometimes other issues outweigh it, and all that happens when your 5aps "tank" or "assistant" does something else is you need a few extra minutes... And, in my experience, time spent finding good squads totally outweighs those few extra minutes that you might need to kill a boss...

Except, of course, archers are still better than wizards.

b:chuckle

*shrieks* EEEK!! (runs, hides)

Menarin - Dreamweaver

Chillum - Dreamweaver wrote: »

...would you still have chosen a Wizard?

Therein lies the question! Are the alternatives that much greater than to negate the benefits of playing a wizard?

...what would you do?

Personally I've tried all the classes and while playing a wizard is my favorite (Evidenced by the fact I've had 5 on 3 different servers LA, HA, Pure, and Vit builds), I think personally I'd go with either Psychic or Archer.

The reason being I like the increased DPS.

Also there is none of that:

"Oh **** I just crit for 72+k dmg on a boss thanks to some combination of HF/EP/Amp/spark+/etc" *instantly dies* random chance... (or at the very least it's probability of happening is decreased a good deal for other classes, but feel free to prove me wrong ;D I imagine it's rather hilarious/upsetting).

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

Except, of course, archers are still better than wizards.

b:chuckle

*shrieks* EEEK!! (runs, hides)

Like I said above their (archers) DPS is much higher than ours, but I love being in a squad with one and they love being in squads with me.

It's pretty common knowledge that a combo of a GOOD archer & wizard can kill almost any kind of mob before it gets in a single attack. Plus they are both good for boss fights imo.

Btw I love good Archers, almost as much as I love good Clerics or good BM's.

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Menarin - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Personally I've tried all the classes and while playing a wizard is my favorite (Evidenced by the fact I've had 5 on 3 different servers LA, HA, Pure, and Vit builds), I think personally I'd go with either Psychic or Archer.

A HA wizard? Get him Adroit, get him!!!!!!

What lvl HA wizard? I wanted to restat to HA on sanctuary just to **** off archers when they couldn't kill me in TW.

HA, stone barrier, emberstorm I guess is all you can really do? Would be fun to watch them target a wiz and then not be able to kill em for a change, ha! I bet I could get them to chase me around forever trying. Might be one way for a whimpy wiz to take them outta play in TW . . . .

BLOODMYSTIC - Archosaur

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

There ya go again. Evidently, something about being a Wiz caused you to go all the way to 100.

Inspired? Not really. My wiz progression is outlined here: [insert link in future]

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

Listen, noobs. Don't pay attention to the old trolls. If they give you a nugget of creative information, then be appreciative and learn from it. But, for the most part they are cynical old dead enders that either won't or cannot (for lack of actual creativity) tell you the facts.

Er, no, we are the ones giving the facts about end game actually. You can give them the facts about lvl 9x, and so far I don't think anyone has disagreed with you about frost runs or whatever.

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

I am level 94 and life as a wizard has been an incredibly fun experience.

Thats an ENTIRELY different question. I've said before on these forums and will say again here: Wizards may very well be THE most fun (and most challenging) class to play. That doesn't make anything else said here untrue, however.

Pearlwood - Lost City wrote: »

I'll let you know if that changes. Peace out.

"Fun to play" probably won't change if you start to pk and can get the gear to do it well. Fun to play in end game pve?

You will be letting them know, mark our words. It will change.

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear

prof wrote: »

I don't know if you've ever used a bm, likely not to a respectable level, but there is such a massive transition between a bm and a wizard.. I mean, there is no similarity what-so-ever in skills, skill use, or how you even use them.

I could not see a wizard just starting a bm and being good at it. the rarity of a good bm is about as rare as a good wizard.

Disagree. BM and wizard are both easy to play, at least, within the constraints of PVE.

It only takes two things to play both:

- Paying attention
- Willingness to modify playing style to reflect how squads do squad-based instances

If you have played any reasonable amount of time on even a single character in squad-based instances, you immediately get the roles of what certain classes tend to do and are useful for. Further attention to detail would yield knowledge of intangibles for playing certain classes like:

- In FF, when cleric gets bubbled on the second boss, wizard heals the cleric.
- in RB, when wizard is taking too much damage, both bm and barb have used up their alpha male's, BM's stun is further from cooldown, you've already used expel, and are taking continuous damage and have already ticked charm with the likelihood of dying before the second tick can come, drop DB, move around inside BB and use WOP if need be (or if Sage, Sage FOW if you have it), or HS.
- With no archer, wizard is a good backup for soloing tower in Abaddon.. just barely in range
- Old Steelation in 3-3, wizard would just need to keep max distance as level 11 long range spells (~30m) are far enough back to avoid getting slept.
- Blade Tempest hits snowmen in Archosaur.. if you can channel it fast enough before someone kills it. They resist magic dmg.
- In FF, Wiz can backup stun for BM on bishops using MS if they have WOB/HP cooldown
- In cube, wiz looking for a fast run should try to bypass [?] **** with too much HP+melee dmg.


- In RB, BM keeps an eye on the barb, wizard, and cleric, mostly. Level 10 stun shouldn't be used right away due to high likelihood of missing (like iceshadows in FF who resist initial stuns then can get stunlocked seconds into the fight) -- wait about 10 seconds after initial hit, start with AOEs (Fissure/Cleave/Sweep) or HF. Start off auras with mana 1->chi 1-> and your choice of def/atk/health skills based on how the squad is taking dmg or dealing it. I usually do, after chi 1 --->def 6->health 2->attack 6->health 6->chi 6->mana rest of the way (if on double drops)
- Backup cancels when barb tanks using shadowless and quake. Especially useful for Belial, Soulbanisher 1-3, Wurlord 2-2/2-3, Collusseast (3-1, 3-2, 3-3), Twilight Emperor (3-2/3-3), and so on.
- Learn to time sparks for possible magic dmg or AOE. For instance, when tanking as a BM in Nirvana w/high APS on Arbiter of Flame he will do two types of spells, one is a half HP spell, the other erupts flames from under the ground. The latter is deadly when there's no BB, so timing a spark for that (3-5 seconds following him talking to cast that skill) can save your ***.
- In FF will of bodhi or holy path before trying to stun bishops in hallways. High likelihood of paralyze before making it to them with cloud sprint or regular running. In big room make sure to stand between BB and wherever the barb is entering BB from to stun before they hit the cleric. Afterwards, doing heads, only use bows if you can hit 2 targets per round of whack-a-mole, otherwise drake's ray, fissure, and cleave are all you need w/axes.

All of these things (these are just random musings, not even remotely close to an all-encompassing guide on how to play both) are what I consider essential things and you can easily learn these without even playing the class and just watching how other players do it. I laughed when Mumintroll said "i r nevar hyper or oracle". That's only an accomplishment because you didn't level so fast you, consequently, got bored of the game just as fast. It doesn't mean you're better than other players who did use hypers or oracles.

I also agree with Pearlwood about dead-enders. It's unfortunate that PWI gimped wizards compared to 5 APS but the constant whining about APS or PVP makes me wonder why one hasn't spent that tim making a sin or bm or archer so you can be the one being QQ'd at. The entire year of 2010 everyone has known that APS = godly in PWI. It's nearly 2011 now. Why are you still stuck in 2009? Get over it. Or not, it's funny either way.

prof

JanusZeal - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Disagree. BM and wizard are both easy to play, at least, within the constraints of PVE.

didn't read past this sentence. if this is what you honestly believe to be true, shut up, go back to the cleric section

difficulty in pve means nothing. every class can kill a mob or a boss, time span is the difference.

b:shutuphave you ever pvp'd?