DQ Update! *Dragon Points*

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  • MANray_ - Sanctuary
    MANray_ - Sanctuary Posts: 2,311 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Thank you Frankie for keeping us informed just as you had promised. b:thanks

    And this seems to me a very good solution, especially as it stands to benefit people who actually do grind the most. Now, i don't expect most players will be pleased with what items may be offered, but as long as it makes up for the 20% value loss of DQ drops (which i have no reason to supose it won't) it is a fair deal, even if the items obtainable are not particularly highly sought. A little extra would be nice of course, and it would only be fair given the time it took to come up with a solution, but i understand there are other considerations going into this. b:dirty What would be really neat is if we could somehow get the Dragon point equivalent to what DQ's we have npc'ed since the nerf...

    Overall, however, i don't expect anything more than what is reasonable to expect, and we should all wait until we can calculate the market value of items obtainable through this means (or the equivalent to what advantages they provide in case they can't be traded) before passing any judgement on the system.

    Meanwhile my sincere regards to those responsable for coming up with this, it does show some measure of good will and attention towards the community. Personally i find this a good solution so far.

    Edit; Sorry, if my answer seems to come a bit late, i've been having quite a lot of irl work lately and have not had much time to check threads.
  • Jennalicious - Sanctuary
    Jennalicious - Sanctuary Posts: 1,073 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Bump. b:angry
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    frankieraye wrote: »
    It's a nice idea, but we want more useful things than what's in the Event Boutique.
    Why? :P

    Aren't there charms in the Event Boutique (IIRC)? That's pretty useful. Aren't there flyers in the Event Boutique? I'd love to get my cleric a Sparklebright, but it's far too expensive as-is and I would happily farm DQs to get one for as long as it takes. As for fashion, well, I still see that as somewhat useful.

    Though I do think that Event Boutique flyers should be upgradable... ._.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Skyhealing - Heavens Tear
    Skyhealing - Heavens Tear Posts: 19 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    hmmm by what ive read on this thread so far is, people are not happy with the DQ worth less coins, but actually its the people fixing drops prices and gold prices at auction not pwi staff lmao xD
  • KrittyCat - Dreamweaver
    KrittyCat - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,273 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Skyhealing - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    hmmm by what ive read on this thread so far is, people are not happy with the DQ worth less coins, but actually its the people fixing drops prices and gold prices at auction not pwi staff lmao xD

    Except for the fact that people are talking about the NPC price of DQ items...and that is set by the Devs at PWE.
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    Survivor of Snow-Mageddon 2010, "The Great Earthquake" of 2011, and Sandy 2012 b:victory
  • Furries - Dreamweaver
    Furries - Dreamweaver Posts: 966 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    ther are a few thing i want to know.

    first of which when will this me implemented.

    i have stacked up about 300 dq about (500k worth)items during last fridays event and i havent sold them yet becuase i figure ill be able to get dragon points with them once that implemented.

    i can wait a few weeks but i dont wanna hold them for 6 months.

    can i get some kinda timeline? so i know whether to save them
    Killing level 80's with a lvl 60 is a lot more fun than killing level 90's with a level 100.
  • Heartstone - Dreamweaver
    Heartstone - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,338 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Got 1,3m worth of DQ items in barbs bank waiting, can hold months if needed. i just keep stack up DQ there, lol. dont need the bank space.
    I'm sorry for misspelling / mistyping and grammar b:surrender

    102 - Archer - Heartz
  • Maragon - Dreamweaver
    Maragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 645 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Heartstone - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Got 1,3m worth of DQ items in barbs bank waiting, can hold months if needed. i just keep stack up DQ there, lol. dont need the bank space.

    1 mil+ on veno
    500k on bm

    if necessary i will start mailing stacks around and using the mail for storageb:chuckle

    @ Kritty you were there for snowmageddon too? good times huh
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Xarathox - Dreamweaver
    Xarathox - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,657 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    *Reserves judgment until I see it in action*
    Some people risk to employ me

    Some people live to destroy me

    Either way they die
  • sangodoc
    sangodoc Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Not to get totally off topic, but these are both wrong, and revisionist history:
    drjiggle wrote: »
    The original explanations given for that change were purely about the economy. It was only after a lot of complaints and analysis showing the relatively minor economic impact of TW that they came up with additional reasons.
    Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Actually you're wrong. Initially GMs first stated that TW pay was eliminated to keep people from receiving 'bucketloads of free money' that inflated gold prices.
    What was said is all still available in the forums, and the first post mentioning the change was this one, where it was stated that the TW changes were because "we believe Territory Wars will become a more fun and competitive activity, with less opportunity for exploitation, and the chance to get some of the most powerful items in the game!" In other words, the changes were an attempt to prevent one faction from owning the whole map. There is no mention of inflation at all.

    In the "[Discussion of Territory War Changes 8-5-10]" thread Kantorek noted (356 posts into the thread) that nobody had yet brought up the idea that it might also help reduce inflation. This was not stated in any way that indicated it was the primary reason for the change, it was mentioned more as a potential side benefit. Unfortunately, that got blown all out of context, and somehow became the "primary reason" in many people's minds. The fact that it isn't the primary reason is clarified by FrankieRaye in "Update 2" of the first post in the "An Early GM Response to the TW Changes" thread.

    Make no mistake, TW pay was changed in an attempt to prevent a "snowball effect", where TW pay paid for keeping and getting more lands for those with a majority of lands, to cut back on various exploits, and to add Rank IX gear, not to reverse inflation.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Alphae - Lost City
    Alphae - Lost City Posts: 1,512 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    In "Update 2" frankie also implied that DQ vendoring causes inflation.

    b:shutup
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Veno_Galore - Dreamweaver
    Veno_Galore - Dreamweaver Posts: 18 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    If the DQ point rewards sell for the same difference of the nerf there would have been no point in nerfing the DQ prices in the first place... maybe something useful that u cant get with coins that would be cool
  • KrittyCat - Dreamweaver
    KrittyCat - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,273 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Sangodoc wrote: »
    Make no mistake, TW pay was changed in an attempt to prevent a "snowball effect", where TW pay paid for keeping and getting more lands for those with a majority of lands, to cut back on various exploits, and to add Rank IX gear, not to reverse inflation.

    There's no need for a snowball effect when all the lands are already owned by the same faction. Maybe if they had implemented this from the beginning of TW it would have made a difference, but now? It's a mere drop in the bucket.
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  • sangodoc
    sangodoc Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Alphae - Lost City wrote: »
    In "Update 2" frankie also implied that DQ vendoring causes inflation.

    b:shutup
    Well... yeah. Anything that provides players with coins, especially low-effort high-reward things (I'm not referring to anything specific here), causes inflation. Adding coins to the economy at a greater rate than they leave equals inflation. It's that simple.

    There are plenty of simple solutions to reverse inflation, but there are almost no good solutions to doing that. For example, getting rid of DQ item drops would probably work, but I think we can all agree that doing that would be worse than the problem of inflation.
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    Visit the PWI wiki for the useful information. Stay at the PWI wiki for the pie. ;-)
  • Chillum - Dreamweaver
    Chillum - Dreamweaver Posts: 887 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Veno_Galore - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    If the DQ point rewards sell for the same difference of the nerf there would have been no point in nerfing the DQ prices in the first place... maybe something useful that u cant get with coins that would be cool

    Well, this point kind of depends on whether this Dragon Point mechanism will exist in PW China.

    I would guess that as this is a PWI lead initiative, the answer would be no.

    Therefore PW China will still have lower NPC DQ items and we on PWI will have something that may make up the difference.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • MistaBwanden - Sanctuary
    MistaBwanden - Sanctuary Posts: 2,803 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    frankieraye wrote: »
    Pretty sure they're not going to be tradeable; we're trying to affect the economy as little as possible.

    Good question :)

    I stopped reading the thread after this.
  • EbonyBlood - Heavens Tear
    EbonyBlood - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    b:surrender Will we be given points for past DQ sales? I've ground out roughly 11m in drops, in the past week. I can't afford to cash shop. And cat shopping does provide a lot when there are no worthwhile drops. While I am not greedy, I can use all the help I can get.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Sangodoc wrote: »
    Well... yeah. Anything that provides players with coins, especially low-effort high-reward things (I'm not referring to anything specific here), causes inflation. Adding coins to the economy at a greater rate than they leave equals inflation. It's that simple.

    There are plenty of simple solutions to reverse inflation, but there are almost no good solutions to doing that. For example, getting rid of DQ item drops would probably work, but I think we can all agree that doing that would be worse than the problem of inflation.

    how about this...
    REMOVE 10 MILLION COIN BIG NOTES FROM BOUTIQUE AGENT
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  • sangodoc
    sangodoc Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    how about this...
    REMOVE 10 MILLION COIN BIG NOTES FROM BOUTIQUE AGENT
    And do you really think that lots of people wouldn't complain about that?

    Like I said, plenty of simple solutions, but almost no good ones.
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    Visit the PWI wiki for the useful information. Stay at the PWI wiki for the pie. ;-)
  • EbonyBlood - Heavens Tear
    EbonyBlood - Heavens Tear Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Actually, I think it would help the economy and slap the cash shoppers, quite nicely.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Sangodoc wrote: »
    And do you really think that lots of people wouldn't complain about that?

    Like I said, plenty of simple solutions, but almost no good ones.

    stop towing the company line, if you want to involve yourself in a discussion.

    there is easily 2 billion coins being dumped into the market on every server daily from TOBL, very likely more than that, with the current sale. coins that take nothing out of the market to obtain, no repair costs, no potting cost, nothing.

    TOBLS would retain a high value regardless of the 10M big note, due to red mats and helm/boots, although maybe not quite 5M a pop, they would still have high value.

    no other factor even comes close to adding that much unearned coin into the game.

    there is a huge influx of coin and nowhere for it to go.

    put another way, the coin that TOBLS are injecting into the market are equivalent to roughly 4 weekly TW payouts every day. with no coin outlay to get it, no bidding, no towers, no cat scrolls, nothing.

    equating DQ npc price to TOBL 10M big notes is intellectually dishonest.
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  • Roseary - Sanctuary
    Roseary - Sanctuary Posts: 978 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    EbonyBlood - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Actually, I think it would help the economy and slap the cash shoppers, quite nicely.

    They could also bump the amount of Best tokens needed from 2 to 4, but then again that might be more on the side of things the devs don't know how to do.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Dear - Raging Tide
    Dear - Raging Tide Posts: 39 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Not tradeable? lol. How does that COMPENSATE for the less money I get from DQ items? I prefer the old prices over some untradeable stuff that will probably be useless to me... unless they are mirages and shards!
    Lvling this char soon
  • Jennalicious - Sanctuary
    Jennalicious - Sanctuary Posts: 1,073 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Too far down page 1. Unacceptable. Bumping until something is done, not just said.
  • Maragon - Dreamweaver
    Maragon - Dreamweaver Posts: 645 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Sangodoc wrote: »
    And do you really think that lots of people wouldn't complain about that?

    Like I said, plenty of simple solutions, but almost no good ones.

    Someone will complain no matter what happens but I think this option will actually get the least flaming.

    Plenty of solution yes. Is this a good one? yea i think its that too.b:bye
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • buttercupcruella
    buttercupcruella Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    I REALLY hope that's gonna be cool and awesome. Yes, there is always gonna be some1 that will complain. The goal is to make as little people QQ as possible. I still have hope for the future that PWi community will come together as one and will slash the wraiths in unison, as it was a looooong time ago.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Miugre - Heavens Tear
    Miugre - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Okay excuse me Sang, but:
    Sangodoc wrote: »
    And do you really think that lots of people wouldn't complain about that?

    Like I said, plenty of simple solutions, but almost no good ones.
    How is removing 10mil big notes NOT a good solution? >_<

    Two Best Lucks = 10mil coins. These aren't coins that are traded from other players, these are brand new coins put into the economy daily. I'd be willing to bet that several Big Notes are created every day, which probably far outweighs the coin yeild of DQ drops given to all players over the course of that same day, even before the price nerf.

    The staff mentions inflation in most big issues, but they never quite muster up the hypocrisy to say that any negative change to our game is designed to combat inflation. But the fact is that any statement from the staff about inflation is dripping with hypocrisy so long as 10mil Big Notes are still creatable from Best Lucks.

    If they did care about inflation, they'd remove that trading option. If they don't care, then they should stop mentioning it all the time, because as it is, it's just an insult to our intelligence.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Yes, I'm still a stubborn holdout in favor of the old game. Haters gonna hate. ;]

    Other Active Characters:
    LigerKing (Barb), Girasole (BM), Shamsheer (Sin), ArborSoul (Mystic).
  • Smobo - Heavens Tear
    Smobo - Heavens Tear Posts: 386 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    how about this...
    REMOVE 10 MILLION COIN BIG NOTES FROM BOUTIQUE AGENT

    I am fairly certain this is only part of the problem nowadays. Since tokens have hit 10kish on many (if not all) servers, a lot of people who are buying packs are liquidating their coins via wine -> triumph money. Since there is a 97% chance of getting 15 tokens, this means 145k coins are potentially created from packs from regular tokens. Best lucks are 1.72% chance of obtaining, which means each pack opened creates a potential 86k coins via best lucks. I think removing wine -> triumph money and best lucks -> big notes are both needed to begin to stabilize the economy.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "People who quote themselves in their signatures are silly. I mean, they can just make up whatever **** they want, and since they said it in their siggie, its a quote." - Smobo
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    Smobo - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I am fairly certain this is only part of the problem nowadays. Since tokens have hit 10kish on many (if not all) servers, a lot of people who are buying packs are liquidating their coins via wine -> triumph money. Since there is a 97% chance of getting 15 tokens, this means 145k coins are potentially created from packs from regular tokens. Best lucks are 1.72% chance of obtaining, which means each pack opened creates a potential 86k coins via best lucks. I think removing wine -> triumph money and best lucks -> big notes are both needed to begin to stabilize the economy.

    this is true to a point, and i could definitely get behind removing any kind of token > coin trade. But tokens offer a lot of other useful options, rep, pots, shards, subs, wine, skills, etc, while TOBLS are really only useful for endgame red mats, boots, or helm. a large percentage of the people opening packs aren't even thinking about endgame stuff, or amassing enough tokens to get them, and are much more likely to be converted to coins.

    though with the ever increasing glut of regular tokens, converting to triumph money will also become an increasing inflation contributor.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • sangodoc
    sangodoc Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited October 2010
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    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    stop towing the company line, if you want to involve yourself in a discussion.
    Issuing ad hominem attacks at me doesn't really help your argument, you know?

    I don't work for the company; I'm expressing my honest opinion. I'd have said the same thing even if I wasn't a mod. Honestly, being a mod makes me want to say less, because some people misinterpret whatever I say in the worst possible way simply because my icon has a green border. How is that fair? b:beatenup

    So, please, just ignore the fact that I'm a mod. I don't let it influence my opinion, so please don't let it influence yours.
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    there is easily 2 billion coins being dumped into the market on every server daily from TOBL, very likely more than that, with the current sale. coins that take nothing out of the market to obtain, no repair costs, no potting cost, nothing.
    2 billion is just a number you pulled out of your hat. Not only that, but even if we assume it's true, without knowing how much is in the economy and how much is entering and leaving the economy, it's just a useless statistic.
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    TOBLS would retain a high value regardless of the 10M big note, due to red mats and helm/boots, although maybe not quite 5M a pop, they would still have high value.
    More speculation.
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    no other factor even comes close to adding that much unearned coin into the game.
    "Unearned"? Wow. There's a whole kettle of fish you potentially unleashed there.

    I'm sure just about everyone earned the money they spent on the token packs. Even if you meant just in-game, you're just artificially narrowing the pool of sources of coins in order to justify your own argument.

    If we ignore the "unearned", yet again, this is more speculation.
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    there is a huge influx of coin and nowhere for it to go.
    Huh? There's plenty of places for it to go. This claim makes no sense.
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    put another way, the coin that TOBLS are injecting into the market are equivalent to roughly 4 weekly TW payouts every day. with no coin outlay to get it, no bidding, no towers, no cat scrolls, nothing.
    Oh yeah, except for actual cash, you know, the stuff that keeps the servers running? And I'm sure everyone is just rolling around in that. ;-)

    Seriously, you've made three claims that are total speculation, and based your argument upon them. You don't know how much they add to the economy, you don't know how much they'd be worth without $10 Mil. Big Notes, and you don't know how much it affects the economy compared to other things.

    Worst of all, none of this contradicts my only point: people will complain if $10 Mil. Big Notes are removed from PTOBL rewards.

    Seriously, even if all of your speculation was 100% accurate (which it surely isn't) it wouldn't change that simple fact. And that simple fact was my only point.

    That's not "towing the company line", that just stating the obvious.
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    equating DQ npc price to TOBL 10M big notes is intellectually dishonest.
    I agree, but I never did that. Someone else brought it up in this context, and I merely said people would complain if it was removed.

    Also, insulting me twice for no good reason and making a giant argument against things I never said is intellectually dishonest, so you might want to watch where you're slinging those stones.

    If you have evidence, not merely speculation, that nobody would complain if they removed $10 Mil. Big Notes from PTOBL rewards, then you would be arguing against what I said, however nothing above even comes close to doing that.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Okay excuse me Sang, but:

    How is removing 10mil big notes NOT a good solution? >_<
    For the simple fact that, once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't just stuff it back in and pretend nothing happened. If my early education in cartoons serves me, trying that just gets you zapped down to the size of a mouse. b:chuckle

    But seriously, the point is, once they've added it, and so many people have shown that it is clearly a popular (if not the most popular) choice for PTOBL, then removing that option will **** a lot of people off (though certainly not all).

    People don't like it when you take away their options, even if you say it's in the community's best interests, because lots of people put their own interests first. Not to mention the old "well they did it, so why can't I?" complaint. Simply put, removing them will **** off players, and it's a bad idea to **** off your players.

    I think, with 20/20 hindsight, if they were able to do it again and the community had no memory of such an option, they probably wouldn't have put the $10 Mil. Big Note in as a PTOBL reward, or at least they would have made it cost more PTOBLs, but I think it's just too late now to remove it.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Two Best Lucks = 10mil coins. These aren't coins that are traded from other players, these are brand new coins put into the economy daily.
    Right, but there are lots of other sources of new coins, primarily mob drops, but even quests give coins, daily. The Tideborn quest line alone gives nearly 850k coins + 50 Mirage Celestones (100% of the time). Just because those are "brand new coins" doesn't mean that they're bad.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I'd be willing to bet that several Big Notes are created every day, which probably far outweighs the coin yeild of DQ drops given to all players over the course of that same day, even before the price nerf.
    A) This is speculation.
    B) The DQ price nerf had nothing to do with fighting inflation, so that's irrelevant.
    C) We really don't know the number of coins added to the economy from quests, drops, and PTOBL, so it's blind guesswork to speculate how much is coming from where.

    Still, just because this is one way to prevent some number of new coins from being added to the economy, doesn't mean that it's a good solution. I mean, making all mob drops be worth zero coins would do the same thing, but I think you'd agree that that isn't a good solution, right? And this solution mainly punishes the paying players. You know, the people who keep the game running? So that's another way that this is not a good solution.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The staff mentions inflation in most big issues, but they never quite muster up the hypocrisy to say that any negative change to our game is designed to combat inflation. But the fact is that any statement from the staff about inflation is dripping with hypocrisy so long as 10mil Big Notes are still creatable from Best Lucks.
    I don't think the word "hypocrisy" means what you think it means. In order for it to be hypocrisy they'd have to be complaining how bad $10 Mil. Big Notes are for everyone, while buying them every chance they get, for example (this is something some players do though).

    Gold inflation was originally due to the popularity of the Anniversary Pack, which made people want to buy a lot of gold, which drove gold prices up. The $10 Mil. Big Notes were a minor factor, at least initially. $10 Mil. Big Notes were not added with the intention of causing inflation, so their implementation was not hypocritical.

    They have apparently worked on creating coin sinks to combat inflation, like the Tiger Badge quest, but they have clearly failed. Still, they are far better attempts at combating inflation than the rather simplistic (in my opinion) method of pulling $10 Mil. Big Notes from PTOBL rewards, which would inevitably cause backlash. Hopefully they'll continue to work on better coin sinks or some other method of damping inflation, though they're clearly hampered by having to get the China devs to work on things and get back to them in a timely manner.

    So, even if they aren't implementing your particular "fix", that doesn't mean that they're doing nothing to combat inflation. Thus, this isn't hypocrisy in any sense of the word.
    Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If they did care about inflation, they'd remove that trading option. If they don't care, then they should stop mentioning it all the time, because as it is, it's just an insult to our intelligence.
    They should stop mentioning that they care about the economy simply because they don't implement your particular "fix"? That's just silly. b:chuckle
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