DQ Update! *Dragon Points*

Keliska - Raging Tide

Esteven - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you take in account the type of people getting all these ToBL. "Most" of them are going right back and buying more gold / packs (made from gold) and trying again. If you ask people how much they spend on packs and how much they get back; it's about even.

Say you buy 100 packs - current gold price at 500k

100x500,000 = 50,000,000 coin

you get 4 ToBL = 20mil

and 2 mp charms = 2.5-4mil

that leaves 96 packs of tokens = 96x15 = 1440
----trade tokens for wine and get 100k = 14.4mil

thats what 14.4 + 4 + 20 = 38.4 mil

a loss of 11.6mil

sure you can be lucky and get more expensive items or you could get nothing out of those packs but reg tokens

So what the big deal about ToBL again?

hmm always thought 2 ToBl -> 1 Big note -> 10kk(mil) coins.

breaker87

So 4 ToBL -> 2 BigNotes -> 20 mil coins

You're sharp b:victory

Esteven - Heavens Tear

Keliska - Raging Tide wrote: »

hmm always thought 2 ToBl -> 1 Big note -> 10kk(mil) coins.

lol lets see hmmmmmmm.....

if 2 ToBL = 10 mil

What does 4 ToBL make?

hmmmm thinks for a moment

20mil perhaps . . .

not the brightest when it comes to #s are you.


*damn . . . ninja'd

breaker87

Esteven - Heavens Tear wrote: »

*damn . . . ninja'd

As long as i wasn't the only one worrying about peoples math skills b:chuckle

Pressa - Heavens Tear

Oh heck yah this is a good idea to get more cash into the system you have to grind to get DQ items and if you have dq items sold your bringing more actual cash into the system in the hands of regular grinders.

Asteropaios - Lost City

Sangodoc wrote: »

Heck, you don't even notice that it would only take 32 of your 24 hour grinders to pump out more coins than PTOBL scenario.

Sounds to me guys like we need 32 more botters on our servers! Problem solved!

b:surrender Irony Flag

And btw all information is "potentially" false....it doesn't necessarily make its meaningless. b:pleased

Sangodoc wrote: »

It's really tiresome and frustrating to say blatantly obvious truths, only to have people try to prove you wrong by arguing against things I didn't even claim as though I really did say them.

Ummmm then quit?
b:question

I would have thought that would have been in the job description.

Alphae - Lost City

Sangodoc wrote: »

Congratulations, you managed to contradict yourself in the same paragraph and prove my point. I didn't claim that the "full NPC price" appears and that there were no other costs, that's a straw man argument, I only said that coins were created, which is an indisputable fact.

Thank you for not reading. I said "totally" nothing, i.e. that some comes from nothing BUT SOME DOES NOT.

Please, read what I write and argue against that, and not things that I wasn't even saying.

Back at ya.

It's really tiresome and frustrating to say blatantly obvious truths, only to have people try to prove you wrong by arguing against things I didn't even claim as though I really did say them.

Sometimes I wonder if I said "black is black" whether people would argue that I was wrong because gray isn't black. b:surrender


I wasn't being "coy", I was stating the extent of my claim. If I say "X is a kind of Y", it doesn't matter if it's not enough of a "Y" for you, it only matters that X is indeed a kind of Y.

Furthermore, we don't know how much of a contributing factor it is, nor even how much the $10 Mil. Big Notes are, so that's all just speculation. And you can't just dismiss any source of new coins because it's been around a while, because it's the contributions of all sources that matter.

The extent of your claim is that "there are no hard numbers so no one should speculate and all speculation is invalid I win." Please stop. That's just lame.

Arguments based on potentially (probably) false information are meaningless. Again, you're pulling numbers out of the air and also assuming that 100% of PTOBL are being converted to $10 Mil. Big Notes. You can prove anything if I let you pull numbers out of the air, as you did with your DQ numbers as well. Heck, you don't even notice that it would only take 32 of your 24 hour grinders to pump out more coins than PTOBL scenario, and far more people NPC DQ items from questing/grinding/etc... than get PTOBL. It's just meaningless numbers disputing other meaningless numbers.

Unless they're botting, I bet very few people can actually grind non-stop, character always moving, only picking up DQs, firing MP potions while killing, for 24 hours. So if you can find me 32 of those people, and they're not botting, good for them (or bad, if they've gotten themselves carpal tunnel or something).

-waves Asteropaios' irony flag-

And finally, yet again, you miss the point that without something to compare that number to, it's utterly meaningless. For all you know, that amount could be the equivalent of "spitting in the ocean".

These numbers aren't available and there's no way to estimate them with reasonable accuracy (at least not that I can come up with), so all that's left is stating the blatantly obvious. Anything else is purely pointless speculation that I put little faith in.

Thank you for completely ignoring everything I said.

The DQ example I gave is TOTALLY within game proportions. And the spit example is based off hard math. What I'm telling you is that some sources of inflation matter more than others. I am not comparing the sources of inflation to any arbitrary number, I am comparing them relative to each other. You just don't seem to be able to get that and hide behind that sad little "we have no hard evidence so I can't speculate and you shouldn't either" argument. Get real.

If you're so sick of people speculating, why don't you get several computers, log each server, and sit for 24 hours counting the TsOBL that appear, and then come back and tell us how many appear. Please include screenshots.

In other words, speculation is what drives this discussion. I overestimated with my DQ example, ON PURPOSE, to make DQ grinding look more profitable than it is. I UNDERESTIMATED with my TOBL example, ON PURPOSE, in order to make them look less profitable than they are. Numerous people will tell you a TOBL appears approximately every 5 to 10 minutes. Now that may not be totally accurate, but it's a good estimation. Here's why:

According to PWDatabase (YES I KNOW NOT ALL INFO IS 100% ACCURATE, IT IS A STARTING POINT, before you get all up in arms), the drop rate for a TOBL from a tiger pack is 1.67%. Let's take a 10th of that, to be fair, or 0.167%. That's WAY underestimating.

This means that, in order for a TOBL to appear every minute on average, approximately 600 people would need to open a pack. That's per minute. Divide by 5, and you've got 120 people who are opening packs, per minute, to achieve a TOBL every 5 minutes. Divide 600 by 10, and you only need 60 people to open ONE pack per minute in order to achieve 1 TOBL/10 minutes. THIS IS GROSSLY OVERESTIMATED. If the drop rate were anywhere close to the PWD one, the number of people need for each time frame would drop considerably.

Furthermore, I'd be willing to wager a gold or two (lol) (ZOMG SPECULATION SANGDOC STOP READING NOW) that most people don't just buy and open 1 pack. There is a sizable population that buys large numbers of packs and then opens them all at once. With a half-decent ping, you can open one every 3 seconds. That's approximately 20 packs per minute. 60/20 = 3. It takes only 3 people to open packs constantly over a period of 10 minutes (only 200 packs, per person, not a hugely unreasonable number) to insert a TOBL into the economy every 10 minutes. I have GROSSLY overestimated, once again.

So please start making yourself sound semi-intelligent like I thought you were and start speculating with the rest of us, because I doubt a dev is just going to pop onto these boards and tell us the exact drop rate of TOBLs from tiger packs (i.e. is the PWD figure accurate). And I refuse to walk around with a blindfold over my eyes going "herp derp no hard figures means I can't talk about it herp derp I can't do anything herp derp guess I'll just sit here and say nothing because I can't speculate durrrrrr."

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Sangodoc wrote: »

For the simple fact that, once the genie is out of the bottle, you can't just stuff it back in and pretend nothing happened. If my early education in cartoons serves me, trying that just gets you zapped down to the size of a mouse. b:chuckle

But seriously, the point is, once they've added it, and so many people have shown that it is clearly a popular (if not the most popular) choice for PTOBL, then removing that option will **** a lot of people off (though certainly not all).

People don't like it when you take away their options, even if you say it's in the community's best interests, because lots of people put their own interests first. Not to mention the old "well they did it, so why can't I?" complaint. Simply put, removing them will **** off players, and it's a bad idea to **** off your players.

I think, with 20/20 hindsight, if they were able to do it again and the community had no memory of such an option, they probably wouldn't have put the $10 Mil. Big Note in as a PTOBL reward, or at least they would have made it cost more PTOBLs, but I think it's just too late now to remove it.

Sang, I've got news for you: the userbase is plenty pissed off already. After the TT change, TW pay system thing and all the other stuff they've done lately, do you really think removing Big Notes is going to be the thing that starts the riot?

Because let's be honest, we've already had the riot. It happened a few weeks ago. Nobody here is going to fault the company for doing what we told them to do.

Sangodoc wrote: »

Right, but there are lots of other sources of new coins, primarily mob drops, but even quests give coins, daily. The Tideborn quest line alone gives nearly 850k coins + 50 Mirage Celestones (100% of the time). Just because those are "brand new coins" doesn't mean that they're bad.

Sang, I've got more news for you: NOBODY GRINDS ANYMORE. Maybe if the Dragon Points system is worth anything and people are motivated to grind again, then DQs would be able to approach Big Notes in terms of money output. But as it stands, it's just not the case.

Don't believe me? Still think it's speculation? Then go in game. Fly around the map and tell me how many people you see grinding and how much money you think they're making from DQ drops. Then tell me how many times you've seen Duke Blacke shout out a Best Luck Token (+5mil coins) in the time it took you to make that flight alone.

There's a point where speculation stops being speculation, because it goes beyond reasonable doubt.

As for the TB quest chain, even if it's completed frequently, it still can't approach the number of Best Lucks put into the economy. Same example; in the time it takes you to do the entire TB chain, at least five people will likely have won Best Lucks.

Sangodoc wrote: »

A) This is speculation.
The DQ price nerf had nothing to do with fighting inflation, so that's irrelevant.
C) We really don't know the number of coins added to the economy from quests, drops, and PTOBL, so it's blind guesswork to speculate how much is coming from where.

The mention of the price nerf was only to illustrate my point about DQs being largely a nonfactor when compared to Big Notes.

Also: DQs were already present and, originally, were a large part of the game's (originally healthy) economy from Day One. Then Best Lucks came along to fix what isn't broken. And you're going to tell me that DQs are just as much of a factor?

Sangodoc wrote: »

Still, just because this is one way to prevent some number of new coins from being added to the economy, doesn't mean that it's a good solution. I mean, making all mob drops be worth zero coins would do the same thing, but I think you'd agree that that isn't a good solution, right? And this solution mainly punishes the paying players. You know, the people who keep the game running? So that's another way that this is not a good solution.

If I fed my (nonexistant) dog a modest amount of food for years, and then I decided to feed it twenty times more food, it's not the original portion of the food that I'd blame if the dog got fat and became immobile. Not if I have an ounce of common sense, anyway.

But I mean look at what you're saying there. You basically just said "we don't want to do anything that'll **** off the paying players." Again!... it's WAY TOO LATE for that. And then you wonder why people are accusing you of towing the company line?

Sangodoc wrote: »

I don't think the word "hypocrisy" means what you think it means. In order for it to be hypocrisy they'd have to be complaining how bad $10 Mil. Big Notes are for everyone, while buying them every chance they get, for example (this is something some players do though).

I'd have to play your game here and call that speculation. But even if it's true in some cases... are you completely barred from criticising a system just because you used it? We've all had to interact with the new "token economy" in some form. You can't play the game without doing so, now. That doesn't mean we have to like it.

Sangodoc wrote: »

Gold inflation was originally due to the popularity of the Anniversary Pack, which made people want to buy a lot of gold, which drove gold prices up. The $10 Mil. Big Notes were a minor factor, at least initially. $10 Mil. Big Notes were not added with the intention of causing inflation, so their implementation was not hypocritical.

Way to completely miss my point. I said, it's hypocrisy when the staff says "oh we're combating inflation, because we care about you!" while failing to remove what is clearly the biggest contributor (even if you don't think so).

Sangodoc wrote: »

They have apparently worked on creating coin sinks to combat inflation, like the Tiger Badge quest, but they have clearly failed. Still, they are far better attempts at combating inflation than the rather simplistic (in my opinion) method of pulling $10 Mil. Big Notes from PTOBL rewards, which would inevitably cause backlash. Hopefully they'll continue to work on better coin sinks or some other method of damping inflation, though they're clearly hampered by having to get the China devs to work on things and get back to them in a timely manner.

So, even if they aren't implementing your particular "fix", that doesn't mean that they're doing nothing to combat inflation. Thus, this isn't hypocrisy in any sense of the word.

Well see, I'd believe that if any of their methods actually worked. We still have a token-based economy, we still have a system where heavy cash shop users have a clearly unfair advantage, and the F2P players get the shaft.

And before you call me on that: yes, of course I know that the game was designed this way. Any F2P game will favor the cash shoppers to some extent. But it used to be a lot more balanced than it is now. The inclusion of packs (or more accurately, the higher-up staff's stubborn refusal to leave them out of the CS) created a lot of items that F2P players want to buy... thus they spent what little coin they could get from DQ grinding on flawless shards or whatever. This game has simply become more and more of a merchant economy, and the only place that significant amounts of coin are generated are in the hands of heavy CSers who open lots of packs for Best Lucks (and other things that they can merchant). This is why people say, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

EbonyBlood - Heavens Tear

Hmmmm......

The maximum possible amount you can earn via DQ drops is way lower than the amount you can earn from dropping a few hundred bucks into the game.

That said, there were people spending hundreds of dollars on the game before packs and tokens. The only sources of income were TT's, DQ's, and selling gold. Gold prices were low, as in WAY less than 200k. The prices on everything was lower because people knew what a "reasonable" amount was.

Here's a heads up, 300m for one piece of gear, endgame or not, is obscene. I can understand it being something that is difficult to get, but not completely impossible for the average player to achieve.

What have I learned?

If I sit in front of my computer and grind non-stop for 18+ hours, I can squeeze out about 2-2.5m, a day.

However, this only works if I stay at my level and kill a specific set of mobs. Mobs at higher levels drop less items. I noticed this around level 60, the first time I stayed at one level to make money. Level 59 mobs dropped more DQ items than level 61 mobs. And I was level 62.

Achieving the amount of coins necessary for endgame gear, at this moment, would take me roughly two years. That's not including BH breaks, splurging on skills, repairs, pots, skill books, shards, TT runs, and refines. BH and TT cost more money than I earn.

So, I'm thinking the economy got pretty screwed over by PWE, as is. What's the harm in actively trying to fix something. They don't seem to care about the rest of our complaints. What's a few more in the right direction?

Blancheneige - Heavens Tear

Sangodoc wrote: »

I don't work for the company

You are doing voluntary work for the company. It's the same as if you were a paid employee. By becoming a mod, you also gave up your independance of thought about the game.

Blancheneige - Heavens Tear

Sangodoc wrote: »

The TW changes may not have worked out, but they were also intended to deal with some problems and complaints about TWs.

No. The TRUE reason for the changes behind TW pay was that some guild on the Chinese and
Malaysian servers were selling the coins rewards for real money to coins/gold selling companies. The exact same reason the reduced the NPC sale value of DQ items. The exact same reason they reduced the NPC sale value of pet eggs.

And the clearest example that demonstrates that they care if players get pissed and complain: When was the last time they sold "Perfect Horns"?

I should destroy your argument by saying they don't care because they unmuted the Duke ...

blackknave

yep they fix TT for one week as of lastnights update hello new TT is back

yep they fixed horns we still see them from time to time some fix


yep they really care ......... get real

Asteropaios - Lost City

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

Unless they're botting, I bet very few people can actually grind non-stop, character always moving, only picking up DQs, firing MP potions while killing, for 24 hours. So if you can find me 32 of those people, and they're not botting, good for them (or bad, if they've gotten themselves carpal tunnel or something).

-waves Asteropaios' irony flag-

Uhh thats 32 per server....so we actually need 224 people doing this. Per day. Until PTOBL cease to exist. soooo 32X7x24xinfinnuuuuu meaningless math b:shutup


Don't bother posting anymore math people. According to Sang's appeal to ignorance, its never going to be 100% correct and therefor, your arguement is void.

Alphae - Lost City

Asteropaios - Lost City wrote: »

Uhh thats 32 per server....so we actually need 224 people doing this. Per day. Until PTOBL cease to exist. soooo 32X7x24xinfinnuuuuu meaningless math b:shutup

Don't bother posting anymore math people. According to Sang's appeal to ignorance, its never going to be 100% correct and therefor, your arguement is void.

Since server economies are independent of each other, you can discuss a single server's economy as PWI economy. While the actual numbers are different between servers, the principle is the same. And the 32 people are already grinding 24 hours a day, so not sure were you got the 24 in your second calculation.

Furthermore, the math is not meaningless. It illustrates how silly it is to think that DQ selling causes anything like the amount of inflation TsOBL do. That ludicrous figure that you gave is approximately equal to the absurdity of the thought that DQ vendoring causes any more inflation than spitting in the ocean causes a rise in sea levels.

The 24hr/day grinders were merely to illustrate how few coins DQ grinding brings in compared to TsOBL. Again, I grossly overestimated the coin you'd make from DQ, and grossly underestimated the amount of money brought in by TsOBL, in order to make the situation appear better than it is. And the situation still looks like ****.

Asteropaios - Lost City

b:surrender this time it was a sarcasm flag

Trust me, I've been agreeing with you on your idea that PTOBL boosts inflation far more than DQ. Then again...DQ nerf wasn't really to curb inflation now was it? It was just a bit of a side effect.

However I do agree with Sang's original statement that people will complain about any removal of PTOBL. Had Sangodoc just restated this and this only, instead of going on to state what could possibly be conceived as insults to those person's intellect and reason. The forums are for open discussion and contemplation. It was my understanding that a mod's job isn't necessarily to comment and critique a players statements as much as moderate and manage the forums. And yes mod's do represent the company.

Oh and The 24 was meant to show how many hours total these fictional players would have to go for, instead of days.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Sangodoc wrote: »

I guess you're unfamiliar with the scientific method. With the scientific method you provide evidence for your assertion by attempting to prove it wrong and failing. Your counter-assertion is rather easily disproved, since it only takes one person to disagree to disprove the claim that nobody would complain if they removed $10 Mil. Big Notes from PTOBL rewards. My assertion was that people would complain, so if you wanted to argue against my initial point, instead of the various straw men you attacked instead, then then that would be a simple test of your assertion. The more people surveyed where 100% would not complain (assuming that there was no cherry-picking of data or self-selection of sampling) the stronger your argument would be.

I don't think it's necessary, as we apparently both agree on the point that some would complain, but this makes me wonder, what was so horrible about that point that you had to disagree with me in the first place? b:chuckle

I'm quite familiar with the scientific method. The task of compiling the actual data across all servers for a 24 hour period is very time and attention prohibitive, in such situations, its generally acceptable to generalize off sample data to reach a general conclusion, so long as the generalizations are not represented as precise.

I'll concede that i was a little off-base on the definition of ad homenim.

in an effort to gather a sample of the player base's reaction to the possibility of removing the TOBL > coin option in the boutique, i made a poll in the general chat section, to see how many people would really complain about it and how many would support it. within 2 minutes of creating the poll, it was moved to the "Cash shop huddle" section where a far small segment of the population will be exposed to it. No reasoning was given to why, nor did a mod claim responsibility for moving it. Many threads relating to strictly cash shop / zen purchasing remain in the "general chat" section.

here is the poll

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=901212

if you have any opinion one way or the other, you should vote, as to give the poll a larger sample, and add efficacy to the result, no matter which way it goes.

Alphae - Lost City

Asteropaios - Lost City wrote: »

b:surrender this time it was a sarcasm flag

Trust me, I've been agreeing with you on your idea that PTOBL boosts inflation far more than DQ. Then again...DQ nerf wasn't really to curb inflation now was it? It was just a bit of a side effect.

The DQ nerf was simply because the Chinese servers nerfed it, and the PWI servers, under license, or whatever, were forced to follow suit.

Asteropaios - Lost City wrote: »

However I do agree with Sang's original statement that people will complain about any removal of PTOBL. Had Sangodoc just restated this and this only, instead of going on to state what could possibly be conceived as insults to those person's intellect and reason. The forums are for open discussion and contemplation. It was my understanding that a mod's job isn't necessarily to comment and critique a players statements as much as moderate and manage the forums. And yes mod's do represent the company.

Sure mods represent the company, but a mod is welcome to join in on a discussion. They're just triply expected to make intelligent, well thought-out arguments, and when they make arguments and disagree with the prevailing wind, they should expect to experience rebuttals from players.

I also agree that massive whining would ensue should TsOBL be removed. And I would be one of them. The reason TsOBL are so stinkin' terrible right now is because of the option to trade 2 of them for 10 million coins. Period, end of story. You can get a lot of amazing gear by collecting TsOBL.

This whole thing started because I said, and rightly so, that it is a stupid statement to make that vendoring DQs causes any sort of measurable inflation. Sangdoc proceeded to make a silly argument in which he stated that since we can't possibly know any concrete numbers, that no one can make any estimations at all. That is ludicrous. Nothing at all in the world would ever be accomplished if people only moved forward when hard, confirmed data was achieved. The very ACT of confirming data implies that most research takes place when most data is uncertain. THIS is the scientific method.

But I digress.

Asteropaios - Lost City wrote: »

Oh and The 24 was meant to show how many hours total these fictional players would have to go for, instead of days.

Ah, ok, I understand now.

DaKillanator - Raging Tide

Don't wanna shoot down the idea too soon...
Let's just say, the concept has alot of potential...

But it's up to PW to mess it up or make it work. We'll see I s'pose

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

Sang got logic'd. b:chuckle

Boots_Elf - Sanctuary

There is only one problem i see with this whole DQ points thing. When PWI decide to **** our servers cause of the Chinese servers they made the NPC price of DQ's lower. So people who farmed and sold to NPC's got screwed.. But most catshops bought dq's at a price higher than the NPC's so if people sold them to the catshops they got more money not less... Of course you had to find a catshop that was buying.. and most only bought the 20 and 31's.

Now you come out with a DQ point system.. So now instead of **** people over with the npc your gonna **** the catshop people over. Cause people are gonna sell their dq's to the npc to get points and i am assuming that a catshop isn't gonna count as a npc. Of course some people may still want the more coin then worrying about the points.. unless the points prove to be really something of worth... Time will tell..

Tivas - Archosaur

Boots_Elf - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is only one problem i see with this whole DQ points thing. When PWI decide to **** our servers cause of the Chinese servers they made the NPC price of DQ's lower. So people who farmed and sold to NPC's got screwed.. But most catshops bought dq's at a price higher than the NPC's so if people sold them to the catshops they got more money not less... Of course you had to find a catshop that was buying.. and most only bought the 20 and 31's.

Now you come out with a DQ point system.. So now instead of **** people over with the npc your gonna **** the catshop people over. Cause people are gonna sell their dq's to the npc to get points and i am assuming that a catshop isn't gonna count as a npc. Of course some people may still want the more coin then worrying about the points.. unless the points prove to be really something of worth... Time will tell..

QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ b:bye

Alphae - Lost City

Boots_Elf - Sanctuary wrote: »

There is only one problem i see with this whole DQ points thing. When PWI decide to **** our servers cause of the Chinese servers they made the NPC price of DQ's lower. So people who farmed and sold to NPC's got screwed.. But most catshops bought dq's at a price higher than the NPC's so if people sold them to the catshops they got more money not less... Of course you had to find a catshop that was buying.. and most only bought the 20 and 31's.

Now you come out with a DQ point system.. So now instead of **** people over with the npc your gonna **** the catshop people over. Cause people are gonna sell their dq's to the npc to get points and i am assuming that a catshop isn't gonna count as a npc. Of course some people may still want the more coin then worrying about the points.. unless the points prove to be really something of worth... Time will tell..

People will still need to buy DQ21 and DQ31 from your catshop character, fear not. You may just have to farm them instead of doing the B/S thing, how sad. Feed the exp and spirit to genies, I truly wish you the best of luck in making some good ones.

Tivas - Archosaur

I think it will be great if they add rep on this "dqs points"...

At least ppl would go "back on grinding" and pvp will be more than jsut west arch and hidden orchid....

+ the rep b:dirty

Boots_Elf - Sanctuary

I don't have a catshop.. of any kind.. I was speaking in generalizations.. If I had one I would have said "me" and "I".. not they and them. And my 80/90 genie is quite fine thank you very much.. I have zillions of spirit points and use that to make one if I need.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Sangdoc, so far the results of the poll are 28 for the removal of 10M notes from boutique, to 6 against.

im sure the sample would be greater if the mystery mod who tried to bury it in cash shop huddle didn't move it, which in turn would make the sample larger, making the results more accurate, in turn making the results more scientifically valid. But the mysterious moving mod didn't think that was a good idea. no mod took credit for moving it, and no explanation was given as to why.

I've e-mailed frankie about it being moved yesterday, still no response...

so, is >80% approval enough to make it a good solution? or, as you seemed to imply, 100% approval would be required to make it a good solution.

MilliaEmblem - Sanctuary

Realistically, there won't be any "100%" of anything. The forum do not make up the whole PWI community and polls do not accurately reflects the statistics. If im bored or trollish enough, I can keep spamming no to 10m removal via new accounts for example.

As for SangDoc's participation in this debate, well it was his mistake to do so as a mod in the first place which was why i assumed was the reason he have not reply (or frankie asked him not to) to this thread yet. So just let him retreat peacefully b:chuckle

and bumpity bump ~

Alphae - Lost City

MilliaEmblem - Sanctuary wrote: »

Realistically, there won't be any "100%" of anything. The forum do not make up the whole PWI community and polls do not accurately reflects the statistics. If im bored or trollish enough, I can keep spamming no to 10m removal via new accounts for example.

As for SangDoc's participation in this debate, well it was his mistake to do so as a mod in the first place which was why i assumed was the reason he have not reply (or frankie asked him not to) to this thread yet. So just let him retreat peacefully b:chuckle

and bumpity bump ~

He was welcome in this debate <_< He should just expect rebuttal to his ideas, and not whine like a little baby when it happens.

Also, bump

Meeeeowwwwww - Raging Tide

wow this is really great! Love it, very nice very nice

Alphae - Lost City

Needs a little bumpity bump, my invo is getting full of DQs <_<

I think we've already asked, but are the Concentrated Venom quasi DQ items (not specified as DQ, but similar in type) also usable in the points system?

Torsay - Sanctuary

Alphae - Lost City wrote: »

Needs a little bumpity bump, my invo is getting full of DQs <_<

I think we've already asked, but are the Concentrated Venom quasi DQ items (not specified as DQ, but similar in type) also usable in the points system?

Their price has been cut by 20% as well when the nerf happened.

I don't think anyone has asked about this yet.

First I have wanted to ask the same thing but I would be surprised if noone would notice and ask instead.
I would not be surprised if PWE changed their mind and didn't consider these as dq items all of the sudden.