Weapon Limitation

Kaste - Sanctuary · October 2010

Alright so I wanted to ask the opinion of you guys.

Sins are only ones who can use daggers.
Psys are only ones who can use artifacts.
Archers are only one who can use crossbow/slingshot.

But every class COULD POSSIBLY use Axes/Poles/Swords/Fists/Bows

I think this is somehow mean. Every class have their special abilities with their kind of weapon (exception: Wiz/Cleric/Veno share). But allowing all classes to use fists makes takes the advantage of BMs being unique in weapon using. (Of course every class is unique, blah blah) I mean BM is not the only class who can reach 5 APS (or less, anyway fast fist hitting), as some Sins, Archer, barbs and even Venos use fists.

My oppinion on Options:

1.) LOL this will be no 1 answered question I bet.
2.) Or this one.
3.) ****. Bow is nice to have as BM to FCC and stuff.
4.) Well i don't know how that would change anything, no BM will go dagger and no magic class with artifact xD.
5.) Why not ^^
6.) Tell me!

Lenore - Harshlands · October 2010

Slings and Xbows aren't even useful to any other class. Slingshots suck in general, and it's not like their interval is great enough for you to get 5 aps RANGED. Crossbows are good for skills, and even if a BM can pick up a crossbow, you cannot use it to its full potential because GASP you have no ranged weapon skills. You'd still be better off using a bow, which has better interval and don't need to rely on spikes for damage.

The only thing I think is unfair is that daggers and soulspheres are limited to one class. As an archer I'd love to go daggers instead of claws, even though claws are faster.

angellicdeity · October 2010

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

Alright so I wanted to ask the opinion of you guys.

Sins are only ones who can use daggers.
Psys are only ones who can use artifacts.
Archers are only one who can use crossbow/slingshot.

But every class COULD POSSIBLY use Axes/Poles/Swords/Fists/Bows

I think this is somehow mean. Every class have their special abilities with their kind of weapon (exception: Wiz/Cleric/Veno share). But allowing all classes to use fists makes takes the advantage of BMs being unique in weapon using. (Of course every class is unique, blah blah) I mean BM is not the only class who can reach 5 APS (or less, anyway fast fist hitting), as some Sins, Archer, barbs and even Venos use fists.

My oppinion on Options:

1.) LOL this will be no 1 answered question I bet.
2.) Or this one.
3.) ****. Bow is nice to have as BM to FCC and stuff.
4.) Well i don't know how that would change anything, no BM will go dagger and no magic class with artifact xD.
5.) Why not ^^
6.) Tell me!

The moment you make fists BM-only you severely imbalance the game beyond its current imbalance. Other non-magic classes can compensate today by reaching 5APS.

You either:

A) make other classes able to reach 5aps with their weapon,

or

Remove a BM's ability to get permanent spark (4aps).

Then... well would you really want to be using fists?

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · October 2010

If daggers were an all class weapon, archers would be better DDs than BMs with fists. BMs on the other hand wouldn't be able to take advantage of daggers since those need so much dex. I still vote yes.

Soulspheres would look cool on magic classes but wouldn't change much otherwise.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · October 2010

angellicdeity wrote: »

Then... well would you really want to be using fists?

Fists out-dps all other BM weapons even without much interval.

EDIT: damn double post, was going to paste this to my earlier post.

Kaste - Sanctuary · October 2010

Just a little add-on, no 1 is meant to mean leave it all as it currently is. After reading that stuff again i noticed it doesn't fit with the question xD.

Lenore - Harshlands · October 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

If daggers were an all class weapon, archers would be better DDs than BMs with fists. BMs on the other hand wouldn't be able to take advantage of daggers since those need so much dex. I still vote yes.

Soulspheres would look cool on magic classes but wouldn't change much otherwise.

Archers with bows are better DD than BMs with fists. The only way fists surpass bows is by sparking permanently. Saying that you don't want archers to use daggers because they will outdps fist BMs is silly, because before perma-spark, archers already out-DD BMs.

This is a concept many people don't understand. Not every claw BM out there has uber dps. You have to reach PERMANENT SPARK status for claws to be "uber" dps.

KageYingZi - Heavens Tear · October 2010

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

Alright so I wanted to ask the opinion of you guys.

Sins are only ones who can use daggers.
Psys are only ones who can use artifacts.
Archers are only one who can use crossbow/slingshot.

But every class COULD POSSIBLY use Axes/Poles/Swords/Fists/Bows

I think this is somehow mean. Every class have their special abilities with their kind of weapon (exception: Wiz/Cleric/Veno share). But allowing all classes to use fists makes takes the advantage of BMs being unique in weapon using. (Of course every class is unique, blah blah) I mean BM is not the only class who can reach 5 APS (or less, anyway fast fist hitting), as some Sins, Archer, barbs and even Venos use fists.

My oppinion on Options:

1.) LOL this will be no 1 answered question I bet.
2.) Or this one.
3.) ****. Bow is nice to have as BM to FCC and stuff.
4.) Well i don't know how that would change anything, no BM will go dagger and no magic class with artifact xD.
5.) Why not ^^
6.) Tell me!

Yea,although your argument seems weak at best,I would love to see weapons going more class-specific.HOWEVER,this would lead to massive QQ.People who already bought weapons and find out they cannot use it after that.Making them usable by more classes will,like you said,make classes less unique.

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

Slings and Xbows aren't even useful to any other class. Slingshots suck in general, and it's not like their interval is great enough for you to get 5 aps RANGED. Crossbows are good for skills, and even if a BM can pick up a crossbow, you cannot use it to its full potential because GASP you have no ranged weapon skills. You'd still be better off using a bow, which has better interval and don't need to rely on spikes for damage.

The only thing I think is unfair is that daggers and soulspheres are limited to one class. As an archer I'd love to go daggers instead of claws, even though claws are faster.

Slingshots,PvE wise are better choices than bows since you attack faster.

Well,soulspheres would look weird with Wizard/Veno/Cleric skills.And Devs prolly didn't program classes with a stupid pose to hold daggers the way sins do.

Regarding Slingshots and xbows,I shall leave it to the pro archers to discuss

haybails · October 2010

Spheres appear a little bit of an oddity but I can't see why another magic class can't make use of them.

Likewise, I don't see why any class can't use daggers, in particular the other physical classes. Any old so and so can pick up a couple of daggers and start prodding and swishing them about!

Effectiveness is another matter, we have passive mastery skills for the class core weapons to highlight this, followed by active skills and general (perceived) class build.

If all weapons are open to all classes, we can find complexities and arguments this way and that. Not everyone will be happy, irrespective of what is done.

With 5aps from claws, for example, many are building their characters in a similar way, across classes, so, does it matter a great deal what class we choose? That is another debate altogether! Should it therefore be looked at to find a new (or revised) balance of usability for a class and stat build, per weapon? The algorithms could be tricky to calculate and programme without messing up the balance too much or being bugged to death! I can only imagine how much arguing and bemoaning the changes that would follow!

Something like: We have a BM and a tank barb. Both equipped with lvl 1 daggers and both have -interval for equivalent of 3aps. The calculated class/build algorithm for the weapon would mean that the BM would hit faster but softer than the barb.

As an example of possible consequences, maybe some classes won't ever be able to manage 5aps effectively, their damage could be reduced so dramatically in trying to achieve the goal. Classes could become more obsolete than they appear now.

I'm no longer sure of what I'm trying to say here..!

Maybe a straightforward open all weapons is best. Or do not touch a thing... b:puzzled b:sweat

Kaste - Sanctuary · October 2010

haybails wrote: »

Maybe a straightforward open all weapons is best. Or do not touch a thing... b:puzzled b:sweat

There it is, I have the feeling SOMETHING has to be changed, but I do not see a good possible solution. Having 5/8 classes go fist seems boring to me. . .

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · October 2010

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

Archers with bows are better DD than BMs with fists. The only way fists surpass bows is by sparking permanently. Saying that you don't want archers to use daggers because they will outdps fist BMs is silly, because before perma-spark, archers already out-DD BMs.

This is a concept many people don't understand. Not every claw BM out there has uber dps. You have to reach PERMANENT SPARK status for claws to be "uber" dps.

Yeah but with daggers archers would the second best DDs after sins. Not that it'd matter though.

I was mainly doing comparison anyway.

Kaste - Sanctuary · October 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah but with daggers archers would the second best DDs after sins. Not that it'd matter though.

I was mainly doing comparison anyway.

I guess GMs should make it possible for archers to reach 5aps sin/bm damage with ranged weapon somehow, shouldn't they? They already deal nice damage, but it is mostly burst damage i guess.

TigerLily - Lost City · October 2010

There should really not be any class limitation at all to weapons. But developers dont have time/to lazy/busy to make the animation for all classes holding Xbows, daggers and soulspheres. I really dont think there is any other reason lol.

Xbows and soulspheres for example has absolutely no gain at all for any other class besides looking cool holding it while afk.

Holding Daggers would however make archers useful as a DD class in pve again, but no one plays archer anymore so its w/e. Sins would still be a superior DD and a fist BM is still preferable in many instances due to survivability.

Quilue - Sanctuary · October 2010

Just make daggers (and Blood Paint) available to all.

TEEHEE

Admante - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah but with daggers archers would the second best DDs after sins. Not that it'd matter though.

I was mainly doing comparison anyway.

Archers were supposed to be better DDs, no?

I doubt BMs were meant to take the role of tank and DD.

Lenore - Harshlands · October 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

Yeah but with daggers archers would the second best DDs after sins. Not that it'd matter though.

I was mainly doing comparison anyway.

Considering archers were the best DPS before sins came along, I still don't understand the point of what you said.

Archers are SUPPOSED to do more dps and dph than BMs. It was already like that BEFORE sins came along flashing their little swiss army knives. The only difference it would make to let archers use daggers is let them do higher dps at melee range than long range. Which also makes sense, actually.

The reason daggers (and soul spheres) are class-specific is not for any BALANCE reason. They are that way because devs were too lazy to add animations for those weapons to the other classes.

ThanosQRt - Dreamweaver · October 2010

i cant understand why some weapons should be limited to certain classes.
a)it's not logical. does daggers have anti-human charms or something?
b)balance? lol.

if making daggers available to archers will make them out-dps bms then I support it.
at least one of the original DD classes will have their rightful role back

Kaste - Sanctuary · October 2010

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

Archers are SUPPOSED to do more dps and dph than BMs. It was already like that BEFORE sins came along flashing their little swiss army knives. The only difference it would make to let archers use daggers is let them do higher dps at melee range than long range. Which also makes sense, actually.

But this is exactly the opposite of what I am aiming for.

Archers are supposed to deal more damage then BMs, agreed.
Archers deal more damage then BMs now, disagreed.
I can not say it for 100%, but i'd say an Archer using his ranged weapon does not deal as much damage as a 5 APS BM. I'd have to calculate around, but I am pretty sure it's true.
So what do Archers do? GRAB THA FISTS!
When Daggers are allower for archers, that's what's going to happen, GRAB THA KNIVES!
In my oppinion, archers are not supposed to be melee DDs, they should be changed in a way so that they deal equal damage with RANGED weapons.

Lenore - Harshlands · October 2010

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

But this is exactly the opposite of what I am aiming for.

Archers are supposed to deal more damage then BMs, agreed.
Archers deal more damage then BMs now, disagreed.
I can not say it for 100%, but i'd say an Archer using his ranged weapon does not deal as much damage as a 5 APS BM. I'd have to calculate around, but I am pretty sure it's true.
So what do Archers do? GRAB THA FISTS!
When Daggers are allower for archers, that's what's going to happen, GRAB THA KNIVES!
In my oppinion, archers are not supposed to be melee DDs, they should be changed in a way so that they deal equal damage with RANGED weapons.

What are you trying to prove?

You just claimed that a BM who can permaspark does more dps than a bow. Well good for you, look at how much attack triple spark boosts and you'll find out why. The best thing about 5 aps is not that you're attacking at 5 aps, it's that you gain chi fast enough to be PERMANENTLY SPARKED. What you basically said was "permasparked BMs do more dps than archers not sparking." Well big duh.

And no one ****ing said archers do more dps than 5 aps BM. Try to read.

Archers are a dex based class. Daggers are a dex based weapon. It makes more sense for us to use daggers than claws.

Archers will NEVER shoot fast enough to get permaspark with a bow. If that were possible it would be even more broken than 5 aps fists, because bows hit so much harder than fists and permanently sparking with a bow would completely break the game (even more than it's already broken).

I admit I'm a bit irked right now cuz I'm sleepy but your look like you don't even know what Kupuntu and I were arguing over.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · October 2010

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

Considering archers were the best DPS before sins came along, I still don't understand the point of what you said.

Archers are SUPPOSED to do more dps and dph than BMs. It was already like that BEFORE sins came along flashing their little swiss army knives. The only difference it would make to let archers use daggers is let them do higher dps at melee range than long range. Which also makes sense, actually.

The reason daggers (and soul spheres) are class-specific is not for any BALANCE reason. They are that way because devs were too lazy to add animations for those weapons to the other classes.

That's my point. I was not trying to say archers shouldn't deal more damage, I meant they would deal more damage which is a good thing since archers are main DDs.

My original post said three things: 1) Archers would be the second best DDs. 2) That would be a good thing. 3) BMs wouldn't be able to use daggers as effectively as archers.

I hope that clears it.

Aelo - Harshlands · October 2010

The real point that should be made is that aps should be capped at 3.0.

Lenore - Harshlands · October 2010

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

That's my point. I was not trying to say archers shouldn't deal more damage, I meant they would deal more damage which is a good thing since archers are main DDs.

My original post said three things: 1) Archers would be the second best DDs. 2) That would be a good thing. 3) BMs wouldn't be able to use daggers as effectively as archers.

I hope that clears it.

Oh, I completely misinterpreted your position on the matter. I apologize. My only excuse is I'm rather lacking in the Zzz's.

Euphy - Dreamweaver · October 2010

Aelo - Harshlands wrote: »

The real point that should be made is that aps should be capped at 3.0.

Yes but that would **** people off. How about this. Reduce the base interval on all ranged weapons. Reduce the attack bonus on archer sparks (since the weapons do more damage initially).
There you go. Perma-sparking archers that don't do radically more damage than perma-sparking assassins and blademasters. Awesome. Problem solved.

Next. Remove Cast Times from all spells except Psychic ones. They're channeling is so small it'll balance out (not really but w/e). That way all magic classes can gear up on -75% channeling stuff and cast mega-mega-mega fast. They'll be no were near perma-sparking, but w/e. It'll be wizards on crack, clerics on speed, and venomancers on LSD. Psychics get weed and get to go slower

Yay!

I haven't slept all night...

Lenore - Harshlands · October 2010

Euphy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes but that would **** people off. How about this. Reduce the base interval on all ranged weapons. Reduce the attack bonus on archer sparks (since the weapons do more damage initially).
There you go. Perma-sparking archers that don't do radically more damage than perma-sparking assassins and blademasters. Awesome. Problem solved.

Next. Remove Cast Times from all spells except Psychic ones. They're channeling is so small it'll balance out (not really but w/e). That way all magic classes can gear up on -75% channeling stuff and cast mega-mega-mega fast. They'll be no were near perma-sparking, but w/e. It'll be wizards on crack, clerics on speed, and venomancers on LSD. Psychics get weed and get to go slower

Yay!

I haven't slept all night...

Your suggestion would break PvP.

Aelo - Harshlands · October 2010

I appreciate the humour.

Seriously though the developers have clearly showed a fear of making what should be straight forward nerfs. Any game that takes it PvP seriously recognises sources of imbalance and makes nerfs where appropriate. Being able to attack in excess of 3aps is clearly broken. Bleed skill on Nix in PvP is clearly broken. Indefinite Shadow on sin is clearly broken. I could list a few more but for the sake of brevity the point is that none of these things have been fixed.

The game needs some serious work but it seems the developers aren't focussed on any such thing. Heck I have not seen a changelog of any significance for quite a while. Most weeks its just: fixed localisation......

Not to change the direction of the thread but limiting or not limiting weapons to particular classes does not fix the true underlying problems (if they can be seen as problems since every major cashopper with 5-6 pieces of interval gear, or a nix owner, or a uber nirvanna sin will definitely not).

Kaste - Sanctuary · October 2010

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

What are you trying to prove?

You just claimed that a BM who can permaspark does more dps than a bow. Well good for you, look at how much attack triple spark boosts and you'll find out why. The best thing about 5 aps is not that you're attacking at 5 aps, it's that you gain chi fast enough to be PERMANENTLY SPARKED. What you basically said was "permasparked BMs do more dps than archers not sparking." Well big duh.

And no one ****ing said archers do more dps than 5 aps BM. Try to read.

Archers are a dex based class. Daggers are a dex based weapon. It makes more sense for us to use daggers than claws.

Archers will NEVER shoot fast enough to get permaspark with a bow. If that were possible it would be even more broken than 5 aps fists, because bows hit so much harder than fists and permanently sparking with a bow would completely break the game (even more than it's already broken).

I admit I'm a bit irked right now cuz I'm sleepy but your look like you don't even know what Kupuntu and I were arguing over.

I am very afraid that you took my post as some kind of offense. My intention was not to give a statement to what you and Kupuntu were talking about, but to give my opinion in about the THREAD THEME.
I guess you understood my post wrong. I've read all posts, because I am very interested in this topic, else I wouldn't have started this thread.
What i was trying to say with the previous post was that:

As it was and should be like that damage wise:
Archer > BM

But it is like that right now:
Archer < BM

So in the post I said that something is wrong with the game with the current "BM does more damage situation". I also said that it shouldn't be that archer use fists OR daggers. My opinion i tried to explain was:
Archer should be no1 DD. But Archer should be no1 DD by USING HIS BOW, not by using claw/fist/dagger or whatever.

I hope you understood my post a little better

It is kind of hard for me to explain what exactly I mean and I hope nobody feels offended by my statements.

Edit: is marked red

Quilue - Sanctuary · October 2010

Aelo - Harshlands wrote: »

The real point that should be made is that aps should be capped at 3.0.

That makes fist/claws pretty useless, as you can reach 3.0 with single blades already.

Kupuntu - Sanctuary · October 2010

Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »

Oh, I completely misinterpreted your position on the matter. I apologize. My only excuse is I'm rather lacking in the Zzz's.

You can also blame my bad English. I suck at making my opinion/suggestion clear.

Euphy - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Next. Remove Cast Times from all spells except Psychic ones. They're channeling is so small it'll balance out (not really but w/e). That way all magic classes can gear up on -75% channeling stuff and cast mega-mega-mega fast. They'll be no were near perma-sparking, but w/e. It'll be wizards on crack, clerics on speed, and venomancers on LSD. Psychics get weed and get to go slower

I've seen -85%-95% chan mages with +12 weapons. They destroy everything even without removing cast times.

TigerLily - Lost City · October 2010

Aelo - Harshlands wrote: »

The real point that should be made is that aps should be capped at 3.0.

Than 50% of the people playing PWI would quit b:surrender. People cash shopping for 5.0 is (next to Hypers and packs) this company's biggest source of income.

Aisubeki - Sanctuary · October 2010

my vote, limit fist to BM, lower attack speed cap to somewhere in the 3-4 range. itd balance magic classes back into the spectrum for being potential damage dealers.

Zoe - Heavens Tear · October 2010

If everyone goes for 1 thing, that 1 thing is clearly overpowered. In this case, attack speed. Needs to be toned down.

Weapon Limitation

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