Weapon Limitation

Born_Free - Harshlands

PinkyRose - Archosaur wrote: »

And you're out there spouting that 6/8 classes are sporting fists?

Archers <-Eh, it happens from time to time.
Barbs <-wtf kind of barb runs around with fists? How embarassing.
BM <-that's a given
Sins <-they think they're BM's anyway
Clerics <-you must be on dope if you're a fisted cleric.
Wizards <-see above
Psychics <-see above
Venomancers <-see above

So 6/8? Really? Maybe on Sanct. You must be out of your mind.
And exactly how many non-BM classes do you HONESTLY see running around with fists? Give me a break. Keep the weapons the way they are, and fix things that need fixing. Why would a magic class need fists anyway? It's stupid.

Fisted Archers happen.
Fisted barbs are a slight embarassment, I'll agree with you.
Blademasters have fists.
Assassins are wannabe blademasters, therefore they also have fists. Rarely.
Clerics don't use fists.
Wizards don't use fists.
Psychics don't use fists.
Venomancers MIGHT use fists, depending on the build. I've yet to see one, but there are heavy armor builds which require a lot of Dex and Str.

Other than that, your argument is all offense. Don't flame the guy for making a suggestion. I do agree, weapons need to stay the way they are. The Developers DON'T need another excuse or distraction keeping them from making more important parts of the game work.

-.- Although I admit that fist Sins are almost as annoying as the regular Dagger-carrying ones.

Kaste - Sanctuary

PinkyRose - Archosaur wrote: »

And you're out there spouting that 6/8 classes are sporting fists?

Archers <-Eh, it happens from time to time.
Barbs <-wtf kind of barb runs around with fists? How embarassing.
BM <-that's a given
Sins <-they think they're BM's anyway
Clerics <-you must be on dope if you're a fisted cleric.
Wizards <-see above
Psychics <-see above
Venomancers <-see above

So 6/8? Really? Maybe on Sanct. You must be out of your mind.
And exactly how many non-BM classes do you HONESTLY see running around with fists? Give me a break. Keep the weapons the way they are, and fix things that need fixing. Why would a magic class need fists anyway? It's stupid.

Okies so i said 6/8 let's see:

BM: Obvious.

Wizard: Never heard of them using fists.

Barb: They use fists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUJrDMcJNU
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=772572http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=891712

Veno: Think for a second, they have melee mastery and take a look at this: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=826042&highlight=veno+fist+claw
It proves that fist hits more then fox form ^^

archer: obviuos

cleric: I had someone telling me about that, see if i can find it.

sin: some do if they haven't got enough for 5.0 with daggers

psy: nope.


edit: found the cleric post: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=10629792&postcount=43

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I havent seen any uber geared 5.0 DD complaining about taking aggro. How many threads have there been with Barb QQ about not being able to tank?

A healthy handful, I'd say. :P

And you think it's a coincidence they're popping up more now than before the 5.0 craze? It used to be the BMs making "QQ I can't tank" threads; now it's the barbs. But let's be honest here, tanking as a barb is not all that complicated. Once you figure out how to spam Ream and how to build your character, you're pretty much set.

There's a thread a couple pages back suggesting that PW upgrade Ream to better match the DDs of today. I was against the idea... not because I think barbs shouldn't be able to tank, but because DDs need to learn to moderate their damage.

I mean, no... you're not going to see any threads from 5.0 DDs complaining about taking aggro. If anything, you're going to see threads from 5.0 DDs complaining about their apparently fail tank. I guess a part of me can't blame them - if I made that kind of sad investment on this game, I'd feel like I need to justify it too. It's never your ridiculous 5.0 gear, nooooo. That cost money and/or ridiculous amounts of time farming! It's uber! It can't be bad! It must be the tank's fault! >_>



Meanwhile (and this is not in reply to you specifically, Ast... just a rant), our newbies are instructed to get to endgame ASAP, farm -int gear, and then everything will be fine. We don't teach the game properly anymore. We just act like everything between 1-95 is so much tedium between you and endgame. The result is you end up with BH squads made up of individuals who have no interest in contributing to a functional team; they just want to get their BH credits and GTFO. They have all the cohesion and communication of a group of drunks shouting at each other in pig latin. And then they wonder why the squad wipes.

Bottom line: this community has become far too obsessed with perfection and stats in endgame. Well, duh. Endgame is boring. We need to accept that, take our time getting there, and make alts when we finally do get there. If you can't stop and smell the roses, you're doing it wrong. ;[

Olbaze - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Bottom line: this community has become far too obsessed with perfection and stats in endgame. Well, duh. Endgame is boring. We need to accept that, take our time getting there, and make alts when we finally do get there. If you can't stop and smell the roses, you're doing it wrong. ;[

Not just perfection, but also with money/time rates. Everytime I mention going Sage as a Sin, it degenerates into an argument about Demons having more DPS due to 5 APS. It's like scenarios where there are other, better DDs, or where you don't have that 5 APS don't exist.

Also, I've had people telling that Sage Bloodpaint isn't enough reason to go Sage because the squad can just get buffed by a Sage Sin and then fill that slot with a Demon Sin instead. If that doesn't scream "obsessively efficient", then I don't know what does. Except, of course, getting all the best level 11 versions of all buffs separately.

It's also funny because not once have I claimed that Sage is the superior path. All I have ever said is that it's not nearly as horrible as people make it seem. And yet it looks like no one is going to ever admit that Sage is a valid, perfectly useful choice.

Quilue - Sanctuary

Psh moderating your damage is no longer wanted because you're now maximizing damage to kill a boss fast. That's your service to the squad, by outputting damage. If you steal aggro and manage to tank it, then the squad is killing this boss the fastest way possible. If you are at a boss you can't tank, then moderate your damage or whatever.

Stealing aggro in general is no longer as bad as a claw archer because you are up there at melee range. Before at like the lvl 70s, pulling an AOEing boss toward you meant the cleric was going to get AOEd and the squad was going to wipe. Not anymore.

truekossy

Moderating your damage to allow someone else to tank is all fine and good if you're unable to tank in your current squad setup, and I agree that if a DD can't tank something, they should control their damage so whoever in the squad CAN survive is able to tank.... but saying that DDs should always lower their damage is just plain ignorant and stupid, IMO.

If a DD can allow the other DDs in a squad to cut loose (aka hold aggro best) and can actually tank the boss or whatever... then that DD is the tank. Period. The boss gets killed faster, everyone saves time, and the repair bills/charm burn/pot burn/etc is lowered for everyone. That's a GOOD thing.

On all of my chars, even before when barbs were always the common tank, if there was something I knew I could handle, I didn't hold back UNLESS I didn't want to tank for whatever reason.

The cleric shouldn't determine who tanks. The DDs shouldn't have to change what can be a 15 minute run into a one hour run by nerfing themselves into oblivion. The barbs shouldn't QQ so much as there's still plenty of need for them pre-endgame and at endgame they can always restat, DD, or go into areas where Barbs are still considered the best for survival while keeping aggro.

And, of course, people talk about damage moderation as if it's always the DD's fault. Yet, I've seen plenty of times where, instead of dealing with something they knew they could handle, a DD decided to hold back or nerf themselves... and then wound up with aggro anyways.... and then got killed or came close because they put themselves in a situation they'd have never been in if they hadn't been trying to moderate their damage from the start.

Fact of the matter is, the tank in any given situation is the one who can best hold aggro and survive. If that's the Barb/BM/Pet, good for them. If that's the 5.0 sin with a +12 weapon and +10 armors, good for them. Funny how so many barbs are complaining now about not being the main tank at endgame, and before their complaints were about being the main tank. I'm not saying I'm against letting barbs tank. In fact, I'm one of those who believe that level 11 barb skills should have a threat level increase so that barbs are still viable for holding aggro against a well-geared endgame DD.... but I'm also not going to sit around and take off half my equips during a fight or go AFK for 50% of it just to let someone else feel important when I can do the exact same thing they're doing without taking as much time. If I'm playing with friends, fine. If I can't handle myself, fine. Otherwise? Sorry but I'm going to do my job in making this run as fast and easy as possible... and if I'm on my Barb and a DD wants to tank, I'll let them. Less repairs for me, faster run all-around, and if the DD's unable to tank I'm a barb so I can snap aggro back and the DD will know to moderate damage.








And before it's even mentioned, I'm not one of those who believe in, nor like the idea of, adding someone to a squad just to get their buffs and then booting them. If someone in the squad is multiboxing and it's an alt of theirs so they want to give he squad a little boost, fine. If it's someone who actually wants to join the squad, either I have room for them in the squad and they can come, or the squad is full (or needs a capable tank/cleric) and they can't.

ZetsumieX - Raging Tide

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

But this is exactly the opposite of what I am aiming for.

Archers are supposed to deal more damage then BMs, agreed.
Archers deal more damage then BMs now, disagreed.
I can not say it for 100%, but i'd say an Archer using his ranged weapon does not deal as much damage as a 5 APS BM. I'd have to calculate around, but I am pretty sure it's true.
So what do Archers do? GRAB THA FISTS!
When Daggers are allower for archers, that's what's going to happen, GRAB THA KNIVES!
In my oppinion, archers are not supposed to be melee DDs, they should be changed in a way so that they deal equal damage with RANGED weapons.

lawl u gotta be kidding me: make archers deal as much dmg from range as a bm would deal with 5aps and the game is over lawl
if in pvp u are stupid to stay near to a fist bm that sparks and then QQ, do it to yo' mommy not to us

ontopic:
either make all weps for the class that has mastery for it only, either make them all accessible for everyone. sure i'd love to use a damn slingshot too like the archers use my claws, and why i can't!?

Quilue - Sanctuary

Think he meant archers should wield daggers and deal more damage at melee range. As of now, the best bow on my server (+12 Jaden) cannot compete in DPS with +5 Lunar Claws at 5/s at a stationary target over time.

KrittyCat - Dreamweaver

You realize that, if this were to happen, many of the more interesting builds of characters would become no more? This, I think would be a sad day for PWI in general. True character customization would go down the drain, and quite a few people would probably quit. The ability to share weapons between classes is one of the reasons why PWI is one of the best MMORPGs on the web today.

DeadSound - Lost City

I want my slingshot ep build to come true some day. b:cry

Miugre - Heavens Tear

truekossy wrote: »

Moderating your damage to allow someone else to tank is all fine and good if you're unable to tank in your current squad setup, and I agree that if a DD can't tank something, they should control their damage so whoever in the squad CAN survive is able to tank.... but saying that DDs should always lower their damage is just plain ignorant and stupid, IMO.

If a DD can allow the other DDs in a squad to cut loose (aka hold aggro best) and can actually tank the boss or whatever... then that DD is the tank. Period. The boss gets killed faster, everyone saves time, and the repair bills/charm burn/pot burn/etc is lowered for everyone. That's a GOOD thing.

On all of my chars, even before when barbs were always the common tank, if there was something I knew I could handle, I didn't hold back UNLESS I didn't want to tank for whatever reason.

The cleric shouldn't determine who tanks. The DDs shouldn't have to change what can be a 15 minute run into a one hour run by nerfing themselves into oblivion. The barbs shouldn't QQ so much as there's still plenty of need for them pre-endgame and at endgame they can always restat, DD, or go into areas where Barbs are still considered the best for survival while keeping aggro.

And when did I say there should always be a need for damage modding?

Of course there are some bosses for which there are better tanks than a barb... you wouldn't believe how much QQ I get when I suggest that a wiz tank BH59. Barbs are not the end-all-be-all of tanking.

My issue is in endgame where you have people who, through event gears and ridiculous CS'd refinements, break the boundaries of their class. I mean, what is a 5.0 demon sin buffed with sage Bloodpaint? They're a tank, they're a massive DD machine, and hell, they can even heal most if not all of their own damage depending on the boss. We have sins capable of soloing their own BH target bosses. Where did being a team player go? Where did the real challenge go?

And no, "turning an hour run into a 15 minute run" is not a challenge. That's just sad. Did you ever stop and think that maybe the instance you're running wasn't designed to be run in 15 minutes? It isn't a race. Nobody's timing you. Unless this kind of massive DPS would make up the difference between finishing your run in the 4hr timer and not finishing the run, I don't see a reason for it aside from pure impatience.

Oh, I know the next argument: "try and farm ur TT99/Nirvana gear without 5.0s lolol it'll take forever." No thank you, I'd sooner not farm any of that stuff at all (and I won't). What do you do when you finally have all that shiny Nirvana gear? Do more runs and sell the crystals? What do you do with all that money, then? +12 all your gear? And then what? ...brag about how much HP you have...? o.O

And that's my point: To me, the entire endgame mentality of this community seems to be, "this is boring. wait! maybe if I do it faster, it won't be as boring!" I've got news for you, it's still gonna be boring. I often wonder, at what point do serious endgame players ask themselves, "is it really worth it to refine this armor another notch?" At what point do they realize that it's all for its own sake? It just seems like they're inventing reasons to keep playing a game that, by all measures, they got bored of months earlier.

truekossy wrote: »

And, of course, people talk about damage moderation as if it's always the DD's fault. Yet, I've seen plenty of times where, instead of dealing with something they knew they could handle, a DD decided to hold back or nerf themselves... and then wound up with aggro anyways.... and then got killed or came close because they put themselves in a situation they'd have never been in if they hadn't been trying to moderate their damage from the start.

Ok, this one just confused me. How could a DD possibly put themselves in a more dangerous situation by dealing less damage?

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ok, this one just confused me. How could a DD possibly put themselves in a more dangerous situation by dealing less damage?

New 3-x where killing faster means less chance of a death.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

New 3-x where killing faster means less chance of a death.

If you're referring to the 4-minute boss, sure. But kossy seemed to be referring to a general situation where the DD (and apparently no one else) would be screwed over because the DD decided to damage-mod. The 4-minute boss would cause a squadwipe (as I understand it - I've never failed to kill that boss within the time limit, but I haven't tried him since TT3 was amped).

Kupuntu - Sanctuary

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If you're referring to the 4-minute boss, sure. But kossy seemed to be referring to a general situation where the DD (and apparently no one else) would be screwed over because the DD decided to damage-mod. The 4-minute boss would cause a squadwipe (as I understand it - I've never failed to kill that boss within the time limit, but I haven't tried him since TT3 was amped).

3-3 bosses are a good example of that. Sometimes you can kill the bosses with only minor problems (well, compared to what it could be) and sometimes the bosses go all out in seconds.

Miugre - Heavens Tear

Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »

3-3 bosses are a good example of that. Sometimes you can kill the bosses with only minor problems (well, compared to what it could be) and sometimes the bosses go all out in seconds.

Still, that's a randomized thing and tends to cause the death of the tank and/or cleric (or full squadwipe) more than the DD. I can't think of a situation where the DD's hesitation causes him to die and not the others.

Thrashbarg - Dreamweaver

To drag this thread back near the original topic:

All weapons should be available to all classes (except maybe spheres, as psychics seem to use a different magical energy than the other classes).

Ranged damage should be scaled up in PvE only. A scaled percentage increase, starting at level 59 (or 89....) with a comparable scaled percentage decrease in PvP would be a simple fix. This would bring back more variation in squads for PvE without further breaking PvP.

Barbarian aggro skills, specifically Flesh Ream and Devour, should have their aggro values greatly increased. It should not be impossible to steal aggro from a stack of Flesh Reams, but it should be somewhat difficult. "Just restat to demon/claw at endgame" shouldn't be the only option for tanking. (looking at the tank class skills in FW makes me think perhaps they are just making all the fixes PWI needs as part of their new game and leaving this one as a testing ground for new stuff....)

I don't think these changes would be impossible or reduce PWE's income, but I don't think they are likely to happen either.

Kuro_suiren - Sanctuary

what if u can equip a weapon that has nothing to do with the skills u have as an specific class, but u cant use it in sparked state? b:laugh

Kaste - Sanctuary

Thrashbarg - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Barbarian aggro skills, specifically Flesh Ream and Devour, should have their aggro values greatly increased. It should not be impossible to steal aggro from a stack of Flesh Reams, but it should be somewhat difficult. "Just restat to demon/claw at endgame" shouldn't be the only option for tanking.

Thanks a lot. This is what i keep saying. If there is more damage, tanks need more agro ^^.

Kaste - Sanctuary

I'd like to have Michaels opinion on that, now that we got him back .

Nedira - Dreamweaver

IMO, There's no realistic need to limit weapon types for skills that don't directly need a specific weapon. Most buffs, Barb/Veno transformations, Cyclone Heel(as it uses feet, not fists to do damage), etc.

Limiting weapon types to certain classes makes even less sense. Why limit the versatility of any class? I believe that there should be skills that require different weapons, as it adds diversity.

I guess being realistic or diverse is asking for too much for an MMO though.

AlbireoTwo - Lost City

Open all weapons. (I voted for number one, didn't see the other options before hand) b:avoid

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Kaste - Sanctuary wrote: »

I'd like to have Michaels opinion on that, now that we got him back .

I was kinda staying out of this thread because it's really quite a messy topic...

I don't completely understand PWE's reasoning for some of the choices on whether weapons are class restricted or not.

Take the bow and crossbow for example. Crossbows, historically, were made for the masses of unskilled to defeat those in armor, pretty much putting an end to the middle-age image of a 'knight in shining armor'. Bows, on the other hand, we weapons of the elite, requiring a great deal of skill and training... not quite sure, but swords, if found in the hand of peasants, they would most likely be stoned to death or imprisoned. Anyway, digressions aside, anyone in PWI can use a bow, however only 'trained' archers can use crossbows... however, that's enough of that.

I do find it odd that the only class that don't have class restricted weapons are blademasters and barbs. Perhaps it's due to the fact that these two primal melee-type classes are obviously more likely to use more variety of weapons than other classes are. Who knows.

I say just leave it the way it is. Asking for changes is only an invitation to more headaches than it is worth. Proverbial can of worms, imo.

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but that's how I see it.

P.S. Sure, I'd like to use daggers too. xP

TraciLords - Lost City

Honestly to be realistic claws should be barb/veno only since they are beast characters and are the only ones with claws.

Just a little common sense for you to think about.

Time for the raging BMs..."Dont take away my claws"

Michael_Dark - Lost City

TraciLords - Lost City wrote: »

Honestly to be realistic claws should be barb/veno only since they are beast characters and are the only ones with claws.

Just a little common sense for you to think about.

Time for the raging BMs..."Dont take away my claws"

Shush you. b:irritated

TraciLords - Lost City

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Shush you. b:irritated

Sorry I forgot to mention that they should make an exception for Michael.b:kiss

Michael_Dark - Lost City

TraciLords - Lost City wrote: »

Sorry I forgot to mention that they should make an exception for Michael.b:kiss

b:cuteb:kiss

Kaste - Sanctuary

Michael_Dark - Lost City wrote: »

I was kinda staying out of this thread because it's really quite a messy topic...

I don't completely understand PWE's reasoning for some of the choices on whether weapons are class restricted or not.

Take the bow and crossbow for example. Crossbows, historically, were made for the masses of unskilled to defeat those in armor, pretty much putting an end to the middle-age image of a 'knight in shining armor'. Bows, on the other hand, we weapons of the elite, requiring a great deal of skill and training... not quite sure, but swords, if found in the hand of peasants, they would most likely be stoned to death or imprisoned. Anyway, digressions aside, anyone in PWI can use a bow, however only 'trained' archers can use crossbows... however, that's enough of that.

I do find it odd that the only class that don't have class restricted weapons are blademasters and barbs. Perhaps it's due to the fact that these two primal melee-type classes are obviously more likely to use more variety of weapons than other classes are. Who knows.

I say just leave it the way it is. Asking for changes is only an invitation to more headaches than it is worth. Proverbial can of worms, imo.

Probably not the answer you were looking for, but that's how I see it.

P.S. Sure, I'd like to use daggers too. xP

I wasn't expecting less then that - an awesome answer.
Though what is your opinion on seeing 6/8 classes with fist/claw? I just think people get lazy and don't want to do anything more then let the char autohit. I mean WTH is a cleric doing with Deicides?

Baalbak - Dreamweaver

my suggestion is to make it so that some skills for e.g barbs aren't restricted to a certain weapon type. I'm sure by now everyone knows its possible to "glitch" claws (or even a bow for that matter, although it wont shoot anything - which would be rofl ftw) into true form due to the fact that while casting a skill, weapons can be changed. However, once "glitched" into true form with any weapon not "intended" for a barb to use, they're stuck until relogging since not even the true form skill will work with fists (yet archers for example get an "any weapon" skill tree). Sure its not the way its intended to be, but it would be nice to have - considering a heavy armor venomancer can stack -interval gear and dish out lots of damage with a magic sword (iirc they can get to 3.33 attacks/sec) and still have amp damage/purge/etc - basically a minibarbfistmaster

mogwai

I still enjoy fooling around with crazy builds, so i vote open all.

Kaste - Sanctuary

Baalbak - Dreamweaver wrote: »

my suggestion is to make it so that some skills for e.g barbs aren't restricted to a certain weapon type. I'm sure by now everyone knows its possible to "glitch" claws (or even a bow for that matter, although it wont shoot anything - which would be rofl ftw) into true form due to the fact that while casting a skill, weapons can be changed. However, once "glitched" into true form with any weapon not "intended" for a barb to use, they're stuck until relogging since not even the true form skill will work with fists (yet archers for example get an "any weapon" skill tree). Sure its not the way its intended to be, but it would be nice to have - considering a heavy armor venomancer can stack -interval gear and dish out lots of damage with a magic sword (iirc they can get to 3.33 attacks/sec) and still have amp damage/purge/etc - basically a minibarbfistmaster

But imagine the pure OPness of a 5.0 Barb with fists in tiger form xD