Why do the 2 Best tokens = 10m cause inflation?

CeliaZ - Sanctuary
CeliaZ - Sanctuary Posts: 901 Arc User
edited August 2010 in General Discussion
As I am really not a genius on economy, is there anyone who can explain to me why the 2 best tokens = 10m is causing the inflation to the economy instead of the old tw payout?

Thanks in advance!

Celia.
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Post edited by CeliaZ - Sanctuary on
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Comments

  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Tokens of Best Luck (ToBL) comes from packs.
    Packs are originally obtained from zen
    Zen is from real life money
    ToBL therefore is obtained for real-life money. It's pure money injected into the game. While 1 or 2 doesn't matter, there are hundreds if not thousands everyday, causing a massive flood of in-game coins.

    ToBL is 10m from the NPCs and therefore generated. Grinding for an hour may get you 500k in coins and DQ and items to NPC, but you have to pay for repair, pots and ammo.
  • C/LLlE - Heavens Tear
    C/LLlE - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Because two, essentially valueless items create 10 million coins, basically out of thin air. If you don't know what inflation is, or how it affects us in PWI, then odds are this won't matter much to how you play.
    Wrap me in a bolt of lighting,
    Send me on my way still smiling;
    Maybe that's the way I should go,
    Right into the mouth of the unknown...
  • FatherTed - Dreamweaver
    FatherTed - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,723 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Worth noting that while eliminating TW pay takes away 500m or so generated coin and stealing failed bid money takes out another 10m or so (est) per week - 2 Best lucks for a banker note adds several times that amount per week. Which is where a lot of the frustration comes in - instead of removing or at least altering the main cause, they chose to remove a smaller part of it in order to keep selling more packs.
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    Thanks for the sig Ophida :3
  • Tojop - Dreamweaver
    Tojop - Dreamweaver Posts: 623 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    The best luck token essentially puts coin for sale in the boutique. When people sell gold through the auction house, gold and coin are exchanged between players (and some is removed via auction fees). When people buy packs and get best luck tokens, their gold is taken out of the economy (if it was there to begin with), and coin is put into the economy.

    Solandri made an excellent post in the other thread about coin influx and coin sinks, and how the best luck tokens **** with that.
  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I say on RT there are roughly 10 ToBL every hour. So that's 50m generated, in a whole day, that'll mount up on 24x50 = 1xxx m. Over a week that's 10 times for than TW pay, not to mention that in TW you pay for cata scrolls, pots, repairs, ammo, bidding and towers.
  • Renza - Raging Tide
    Renza - Raging Tide Posts: 1,939 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    its not just that the 2 tokens cause a big inflation when both exchanged for the 10mill, its the fact that they patched out TW pay, claiming it wud reduce inflation by alot, then had the balls to make more money from our losses by permanently sticking in Coral packs.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "Kantorek: we hope to see the economy in PWI come back "down to earth" if you will."
    *One week later*
    "Frankieraye: Lucky Corals and Platinum Charms are going to be in the Boutique indefinitely."
    *few months later, PWI puts rank8/9 into the CS insanely cheap, raising gold 1mill+*
  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    You sure it's permanent?
  • TheDan - Sanctuary
    TheDan - Sanctuary Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Putting coins into the game where they previously did not exist. Ever wonder why gold is 400-500K?

    At least when people used to sell gold before, people had to buy it with coins that PREVIOUSLY EXISTED on the server. Now people can buy gold with lots of coin that is spontaneously being inserted into the economy that wasn't farmed by the players.

    And buying packs is NOT a coin sink, the coin goes to another player/merchant. When you learn skills / teleport / AH 5% taxes the coin is taken away from the economy, which is a small coin sink. Unless coins are being removed from the economy, inflation is bound to happen.
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  • Longknife - Harshlands
    Longknife - Harshlands Posts: 4,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »
    You sure it's permanent?

    The packs that are supposedly permanent have a noticeable drop in the Token of Best luck chance rate.
    I <3 AGOREY
  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Yes inflation is bound to happen. Although without ToBL it would be at a very slow pace.
  • TheDan - Sanctuary
    TheDan - Sanctuary Posts: 3,495 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Longknife - Harshlands wrote: »
    The packs that are supposedly permanent have a noticeable drop in the Token of Best luck chance rate.

    Yes, that's why gold is going down, these packs have ****ty chances to win. Ever notice why these packs aren't purple? They're white named.

    Lucky Coral (White named Pack)- http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/21466

    Coral of Luck (Purple named pack) - http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/quest/21385

    .72% chance to win best lucks compared to 1.72% to other packs.

    White packs have 98% chance of tokens, Purple packs have 97% chance of tokens.
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  • Ranfa - Dreamweaver
    Ranfa - Dreamweaver Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I hope people keep winning best tokens for me to collect enough of 'em b:avoid
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    CeliaZ - Sanctuary wrote: »
    As I am really not a genius on economy, is there anyone who can explain to me why the 2 best tokens = 10m is causing the inflation to the economy instead of the old tw payout?
    It's easiest to understand it in a vastly oversimplified and extreme case.

      Say the server has 3 players, Joe, Bob, and Sarah. Joe has 1 million coin. Bob has 1 million coin. Sarah has no coin but does have 10 gold.

      Sarah wants coin so she WCs that she's has 10 gold for sale to the highest bidder. Joe and Bob each decide they can use half their available coin to buy gold. So that's 500k each, or 1 million total for 10 gold. As a result, each gold sells for 100k.

      Say both spend their gold on packs. Joe gets two perfect best luck tokens, and cashes them in for 10 mil. Bob just gets regular tokens, and (to make the math easier) sells them to Joe for 500k. Joe now has 10 million coin, Bob has 1 million coin.

      Sarah gets 10 more gold she offers for sale. Joe and Bob again decide they can use roughly half their available coin to buy gold. So that's 5 million and 500k, or 5.5 million total for 10 gold. As a result, each gold sells for 550k.

    When you increase the amount of one currency relative to the other without changing the demand for one relative to the other, the currency inflates - its value decreases. That's what happened in Germany after WWI - the government printed so many Marks (essentially stealing wealth from its citizens) that you needed a wheelbarrow full of them to buy a loaf of bread.

    Also note that in the first case, Joe and Bob's combined wealth (2 million coin) was worth approx 20 gold, 10 gold each. In the second case, their combined wealth (11 million coin) is still worth approx 20 gold because nothing new of value was added to the economy. There was no new uberweapon added which improved someone's fighting ability, no mat which allowed someone to make TT armor to allow them to survive longer. The wealth of the entire system remains the same, only the amount of currency in the system has changed. (Edit: Ok, the regular tokens added a small amount, but not much. Ignore them for now.)

    So Joe's 10 million coin is worth 18.2 gold, while Bob's 1 million is worth only 1.8 gold. Bob has done nothing, but his 1 million savings which used to be worth 10 gold is now only worth 1.8 gold. Essentially, the tokens have allowed Joe to steal 8.2 gold worth of value from Bob based on pure random chance.

    The TW pay had the same effect, but at ~500 mil a week, it was about the same as just 100 perfect best luck tokens. Based on the duke shouts, I think we're still getting ~100 tokens every 1-2 days. During the early days of packs we were probably getting 100 every few hours. So the TW pay affected the economy to a much smaller degree than the perfect best luck tokens.
  • Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide
    Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide Posts: 770 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    If the vast number of best-lucks entering the system causes inflation at the rate people seem to want to suggest, why has the price of gold on RT held steady at ~420 (it swings by around 20-30 either side of that) for 6+ months?

    If the 10mil notes are as detrimental as suggested, why is the price of gold not increasing exponentially every month? ...or every other week for that matter?

    b:question
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  • Magiere - Dreamweaver
    Magiere - Dreamweaver Posts: 395 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »
    If the vast number of best-lucks entering the system causes inflation at the rate people seem to want to suggest, why has the price of gold on RT held steady at ~420 (it swings by around 20-30 either side of that) for 6+ months?

    If the 10mil notes are as detrimental as suggested, why is the price of gold not increasing exponentially every month? ...or every other week for that matter?

    b:question

    Well gold has never been as high as it was now with duke shouting best of luck again.
    Its also psychological for wanting something i guess.

    2nd reason i could come up with is the endless highlvls of quitting and leaving millions on their account and doing the game a favor with their "coin sink".
    Originally written by Satchiko to me regarding old spice commercial :
    Hello Perfect World. Look at your cleric, now back to me, now back to your cleric, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me. But if you stopped being a noob and started wearing sunglasses you could act like you're me. Look down, back up, where are you? You're on Dreamweaver with the cleric your cleric could be like. What's in your hand, back at me. It's an inventory filled with the gear you want. Look again, the gear is now diamonds. Anything is possible with sunglasses. I'm flying on starter wings.
  • FatherTed - Dreamweaver
    FatherTed - Dreamweaver Posts: 3,723 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Well gold has never been as high as it was now with duke shouting best of luck again.
    Its also psychological for wanting something i guess.

    2nd reason i could come up with is the endless highlvls of quitting and leaving millions on their account and doing the game a favor with their "coin sink".

    It was actually a bit higher when anni packs were at their peak, but you're right. Gold prices were nudging below 300k before they put the shouts back in.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Thanks for the sig Ophida :3
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    TheDan - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Putting coins into the game where they previously did not exist. Ever wonder why gold is 400-500K?

    I don't wonder at all. It's because people can make a living playing the game at 100k per.
    At least when people used to sell gold before, people had to buy it with coins that PREVIOUSLY EXISTED on the server. Now people can buy gold with lots of coin that is spontaneously being inserted into the economy that wasn't farmed by the players.

    The packs aren't the only source of incredible amounts of coin. PWE took necessary steps to protect itself and even went to lengths to ensure there was no major problem from it.

    Dunno why this is being discussed continually. There is no economy problem. Please stop the QQ: the ones doing the QQ are just telling the rest of us that they fail at the game.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Silver - Dreamweaver
    Silver - Dreamweaver Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »
    If the vast number of best-lucks entering the system causes inflation at the rate people seem to want to suggest, why has the price of gold on RT held steady at ~420 (it swings by around 20-30 either side of that) for 6+ months?

    If the 10mil notes are as detrimental as suggested, why is the price of gold not increasing exponentially every month? ...or every other week for that matter?

    b:question
    Im sorry bro but were u beat over the head with a dictionary so you refuse to learn anymore?
    Your on the f*cking Oracle Server, The Packs were always with you and probably always will be. Have you ever played on older Servers like HT or LC? Didnt think so. You dont know what Low is

    Oh and Let me guess it was swinging lower when Packs were out of the CS and they swing higher when it was there for a long time Right?

    Your Nice and all but sometimes your failure to see the truth astounds me
    Most Ironic phrase in the English language is Common Sense, its easiest concept to understand yet few people ever grasp it.

    ~Silver
  • NightRage - Raging Tide
    NightRage - Raging Tide Posts: 1,582 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Silver - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Im sorry bro but were u beat over the head with a dictionary so you refuse to learn anymore?
    Your on the f*cking Oracle Server, The Packs were always with you and probably always will be. Have you ever played on older Servers like HT or LC? Didnt think so. You dont know what Low is

    Oh and Let me guess it was swinging lower when Packs were out of the CS and they swing higher when it was there for a long time Right?

    Your Nice and all but sometimes your failure to see the truth astounds me

    CommonSense isn't a word.
  • Silver - Dreamweaver
    Silver - Dreamweaver Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    NightRage - Raging Tide wrote: »
    CommonSense isn't a word.

    Fixed, it was late at night when i wrote that and i was...out of it lol
    Most Ironic phrase in the English language is Common Sense, its easiest concept to understand yet few people ever grasp it.

    ~Silver
  • volst
    volst Posts: 180
    edited August 2010
    Gold inflated during JJ before anni packs did, and that didn't inject any gold and tried to take gold away instead. People just like blaming something else but themselves. Gold would've been already at 1m if the bank notes had any effect to begin with.
  • Aubree - Dreamweaver
    Aubree - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,868 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I don't think BL are the problem either. Packs are. With the range of items you can get from packs like wing tropy, lunar wep/orn etc, people will always buy packs. People who QQ about it are just poor and can't afford to gamble for the chance at winning the items so they feel left out. These are elite items. I think the new TW changes will bring prices down. I know people who have opened 100+ packs and got a plat charm and tokens. 100 gold = 40 mill about there anyway. I know people who opened 5o and got 3 lunar wing trophy. The thing is there is a lot of coin in the game right now. So yea 50 mill for an elite item is not much. Compare that to what it costs to make say nirvana cape. I think you all want to live like a cash shopper without either doing the work or paying for it. Packs are a gamble, only do it if you can afford it.
  • Reshanta - Sanctuary
    Reshanta - Sanctuary Posts: 350 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Uhm, I'm seeing deflation more than anything.
    Lonely man with a big heart.
  • Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide
    Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide Posts: 770 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Silver - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Im sorry bro but were u beat over the head with a dictionary so you refuse to learn anymore?
    Your on the f*cking Oracle Server, The Packs were always with you and probably always will be. Have you ever played on older Servers like HT or LC? Didnt think so. You dont know what Low is

    Oh and Let me guess it was swinging lower when Packs were out of the CS and they swing higher when it was there for a long time Right?

    Your Nice and all but sometimes your failure to see the truth astounds me

    1st of all, how about sparing Fuzzy the attitude and debating like grown-up?

    If the amount of best-lucks being traded for 10m coins was having the drastic effect you seem to be preaching about, in over 6 months, it would have moved the price of gold by alot more than 30-50k

    The fact that Fuzzy plays on a so called "oracle server" should, by your logic, have compounded the problem to an even greater degree. Yet there is absolutely no proof of this.

    As to when the prices swing, no, it has very little to do with the packs being added or removed. If you actually watched the market, it swings determined on the demand and availability of gold. Generally it bumps up on a friday/saturday (presumably based on the demand increasing as more people want to acquire charms for upcoming TW's) and it generally falls around the middle and end of the month. (presumably based on the fact this is when people get paid in RL, charge some zen, and the amount available in the AH increases.)

    So before you go running your mouth again, how about actually putting some thought into your response. Fuzzy is not arguing against the removal of the 10m note, simply asking a few questions because from where me is sitting your whole argument seems to be based on "hurp-durp, it sure ain't what it used to be". What kind of argument is that?

    Provide an example of this inflation that is soley caused by the 10m notes alone and not influenced by many other factors as well.....

    b:shutup
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  • CeliaZ - Sanctuary
    CeliaZ - Sanctuary Posts: 901 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    It's easiest to understand it in a vastly oversimplified and extreme case.

      Say the server has 3 players, Joe, Bob, and Sarah. Joe has 1 million coin. Bob has 1 million coin. Sarah has no coin but does have 10 gold.

      Sarah wants coin so she WCs that she's has 10 gold for sale to the highest bidder. Joe and Bob each decide they can use half their available coin to buy gold. So that's 500k each, or 1 million total for 10 gold. As a result, each gold sells for 100k.

      Say both spend their gold on packs. Joe gets two perfect best luck tokens, and cashes them in for 10 mil. Bob just gets regular tokens, and (to make the math easier) sells them to Joe for 500k. Joe now has 10 million coin, Bob has 1 million coin.

      Sarah gets 10 more gold she offers for sale. Joe and Bob again decide they can use roughly half their available coin to buy gold. So that's 5 million and 500k, or 5.5 million total for 10 gold. As a result, each gold sells for 550k.

    When you increase the amount of one currency relative to the other without changing the demand for one relative to the other, the currency inflates - its value decreases. That's what happened in Germany after WWI - the government printed so many Marks (essentially stealing wealth from its citizens) that you needed a wheelbarrow full of them to buy a loaf of bread.

    Also note that in the first case, Joe and Bob's combined wealth (2 million coin) was worth approx 20 gold, 10 gold each. In the second case, their combined wealth (11 million coin) is still worth approx 20 gold because nothing new of value was added to the economy. There was no new uberweapon added which improved someone's fighting ability, no mat which allowed someone to make TT armor to allow them to survive longer. The wealth of the entire system remains the same, only the amount of currency in the system has changed. (Edit: Ok, the regular tokens added a small amount, but not much. Ignore them for now.)

    So Joe's 10 million coin is worth 18.2 gold, while Bob's 1 million is worth only 1.8 gold. Bob has done nothing, but his 1 million savings which used to be worth 10 gold is now only worth 1.8 gold. Essentially, the tokens have allowed Joe to steal 8.2 gold worth of value from Bob based on pure random chance.

    The TW pay had the same effect, but at ~500 mil a week, it was about the same as just 100 perfect best luck tokens. Based on the duke shouts, I think we're still getting ~100 tokens every 1-2 days. During the early days of packs we were probably getting 100 every few hours. So the TW pay affected the economy to a much smaller degree than the perfect best luck tokens.

    Wonderfull explanation, thanks alot! I think I understand it now.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Silver - Dreamweaver
    Silver - Dreamweaver Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »
    1st of all, how about sparing Fuzzy the attitude and debating like grown-up?
    and for that i apologize, i got a little rattled
    If the amount of best-lucks being traded for 10m coins was having the drastic effect you seem to be preaching about, in over 6 months, it would have moved the price of gold by alot more than 30-50k
    No for the main fact that there are Merchants and there are undercutters.

    Merchants buy lower gold and usually set the max price for when gold goes up

    The Undercutters set the gold at lower prices in order to get money quicker (lack of patience or whatever) this balance of people keep the prices overall at a steady rate, whether a rise or fall.
    The fact that Fuzzy plays on a so called "oracle server" should, by your logic, have compounded the problem to an even greater degree. Yet there is absolutely no proof of this.
    And it has, this server has about the same rates as the other servers right now.

    But the other Servers, older onces for example, had prices way lower when they began (I.e 100k gold) when it was as old as this server yet you being on this young server still live with these same Prices why? Because the packs are available. If the packs werent introduced to your server, your server would have low gold prices

    (Remember the first day of the server when Gold was 15k then went up steadily as people leveled up, kinda like that)

    As to when the prices swing, no, it has very little to do with the packs being added or removed. If you actually watched the market, it swings determined on the demand and availability of gold. Generally it bumps up on a friday/saturday (presumably based on the demand increasing as more people want to acquire charms for upcoming TW's) and it generally falls around the middle and end of the month. (presumably based on the fact this is when people get paid in RL, charge some zen, and the amount available in the AH increases.)
    It also swings when the Packs are in and out of the Cash Shop, I would know, i was on RT and when the packs were out the average was 400k and when the packs were in there for a while the packs were in the gold prices rose past 420k and into the 480-500k range.
    So before you go running your mouth again, how about actually putting some thought into your response. Fuzzy is not arguing against the removal of the 10m note, simply asking a few questions because from where me is sitting your whole argument seems to be based on "hurp-durp, it sure ain't what it used to be". What kind of argument is that?
    You have adapted, its what humans do, but if some arnt happy why cant we voice our opinions?
    Provide an example of this inflation that is soley caused by the 10m notes alone and not influenced by many other factors as well.....
    Buying Tokens of best Luck. Before you could buy them from people for around 4.5mil and less, now more people noticed that 2= 10mil so they sell from 4.8-5.1mil now. there is your factor bud
    b:shutup

    And i wasnt in any way rude
    Most Ironic phrase in the English language is Common Sense, its easiest concept to understand yet few people ever grasp it.

    ~Silver
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I don't think BL are the problem either. Packs are. With the range of items you can get from packs like wing tropy, lunar wep/orn etc, people will always buy packs.
    That's why I've been tracking the price of gold separately. One based for when there no packs in CS, another when there are packs in CS. The no-pack exchange rate went from about 90-110k, to about 130k after the first JJ event, to about 190k after the second, to 250k after the first Aniiv pack, etc. Right now it's at around 400k (gold is at about 430k, but last time lucky corals were removed from CS it dropped about 30k).

    The packs themselves don't exactly instill me with confidence in the fate of humanity either. If you add up the coin value of everything you can get from the packs, and multiply by the chance of getting them, you end up with an average value of about 290k for the lucky corals, and 330-360k for the other packs. Yet people are paying 425k+ for them. Free market forces should've dropped their price (and the price of gold) to something more in line with their true value. But the psychological factor of addiction to gambling seems to be overriding market forces. People are buying the packs because their hopes and wishes cause them to make an irrational decision.
  • Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide
    Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide Posts: 770 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Silver - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    And i wasnt in any way rude

    Appreciated. b:cute
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I don't think the problem is the 10mil from the tokens exactly.


    I think people are just mentioning this because the GMs claim the changes in TW pay is to "combat inflation" while best luck tokens bring much more coins in.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    exactly, there is so much coin in the economy at this point that injecting 3 Billion a week into it still will not create a very noticeable difference. The problem is the gm lying to us and using a smaller source of coin injection as a scapegoat for a larger source of coin injection.

    they would have at least gotten a little more respect if they where upfront with their greed by saying something like: "we are removing TW pay because we want the players in TW guilds that dont spend any real money on the game to be forced into buying gold with money rather than TW pay to maintain themselves in TW, we want Land owners to buy gold, and buy packs with money they give us, not with money dispensed as part of the game mechanics."

    Of course this would have still pissed off everyone who TWs, but at least the injury wouldnt have been compounded by the insult to our intelligence, and the indignation of being lied to to our faces.
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