Why do the 2 Best tokens = 10m cause inflation?

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  • Lenore - Harshlands
    Lenore - Harshlands Posts: 1,201 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    It's not about how much ppl are willing to pay. We are looking at the coins vs goods ratio in the game. If packs only brought in Tokens of Best luck then, yeah, there'll be much more coins in game while goods created at the same rate (farming). But it's not only coins came out of nowhere but goods such as tokens and gears also came from packs.

    The price of the mat you spent, and other things alike, are also affected by their supplies as well as demand. When I first got cala axes for my BM on DW, I paid 4 mil for the mold and they are now 400k. It's true that inflation happened, but I'm not going to blame it entirely on Tokens of Best Luck.

    Coins coming from nowhere = inflation. Goods coming from nowhere = deflation. Goods+coins coming from nowhere = ?. I'm not a economist.



    Yes, packs without Best of Luck would be a nice inflation control. But we are talking about if packs with Best of Luck increases inflation.

    Your axe mold went up because the levels of the players went up, as well as the gears they had access to. Calamity axes were a rare find in the old days because only the top players could even survive those instances, let alone farm it. In fact when I was around that level, the calamity axes were 10M+.

    Anyways I know what you're trying to say, and I wouldn't say you're wrong. The thing is my beef with the tokens is the GMs claim they changed the TW rewards because they wanted to stem the flow of coin into the game, and my point is there's nothing wrong with the coin being generated by the actual gameplay (DQ drops, TW pay, etc.) whereas the majority of the coin actually in the system is from tokens. As I said I've already given up on gold prices and I dont' care so much for inflation because as a merchant, I simply adapt to whatever price is out there. I just get irked when poor excuses are made.
  • Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary
    Duke_Atticus - Sanctuary Posts: 102 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Also forgot to mention that not every ToBL is traded for money (some people seem to use them for red TT mats for example).

    The thread on TW pay out brought about a lot of arguments, especially about ToBL being the prime source of inflation.

    What I'm wondering at this point though, is what the distribution of what people do with it is:
    1. Trade it for 10m
    2. Sell to players
    3. Trade it for gears
    4. Hoard it (for whatever personal reasons)
    5. Something else not listed above

    Another thing that left me pondering is, if 10m was never implemented in the boutique, what would the prices of gears gotten from packs have been? Would they have been cheaper, or more expensive?
  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Lenore - Harshlands wrote: »
    Your axe mold went up because the levels of the players went up, as well as the gears they had access to. Calamity axes were a rare find in the old days because only the top players could even survive those instances, let alone farm it. In fact when I was around that level, the calamity axes were 10M+.
    .

    Calamities were so expensive, because the Mysterious Merchant had different prices back then. If he had different pricing, the axe mold would have been much cheaper. We used to make a killing when there were only 10 or less doing cube by selling molds bought from chips earned in chip rooms.

    The interesting thing about this thread, is that all it takes is proving one thing wrong and everyone is actually arguing that removing TW pay did take away inflation. The reasoning that ToBL are the worst culprit should be able to be proved or disproved based off how many are observed through the day, and that number is not constant. I've been on and seen anywhere from 0-10 in a given hour, so would need an average. And if people are buying them for above 5 million, then they are after orange TT and do not count for inflation.

    And really, if TW pay is even a good enough percentage of the over-all coin inflation, then the point of the Devs still sticks. Packs contribute to keeping rl money coming in; TW pay did not directly do that. And despite the arguement of quitting/not using charms, the new people coming in will be doing so without any previous TW arrangement. So might lose some old, but the new won't care. It's one of those Dilbert kind of things; the company needs people like you, just not you in particular.
    Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura

    Get a High lvl Fist warrior use it, Restat to axes. GG - complexx

    :NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    It's not about how much ppl are willing to pay. We are looking at the coins vs goods ratio in the game. If packs only brought in Tokens of Best luck then, yeah, there'll be much more coins in game while goods created at the same rate (farming). But it's not only coins came out of nowhere but goods such as tokens and gears also came from packs.
    ...
    Coins coming from nowhere = inflation. Goods coming from nowhere = deflation. Goods+coins coming from nowhere = ?. I'm not a economist.
    You know, that's actually a really good point. I'm not sure of the answer either (I get enough headaches trying to shift my money between US$ and CA$).

    FWIW, I dug up the spreadsheet where I valued the packs (looks like I remembered the values wrong - they are worse than I remember). Here are the figures I came up with on the value of the ToBL vs. other stuff coming out of the packs, factoring in the chance to get them. The market prices were from earlier in the year (I haven't been able to play much this summer) so are a bit out of date. And I don't have data on the Sunshine packs since they just showed up in PWDB.

    Anniv Packs
    Total value: 262k
    ToBL: 32.7% of total

    Coral Packs
    Total value: 193k
    ToBL: 18.7%

    Tiger Packs
    Total value: 274k
    ToBL: 31.4%

    So yes, you're right, the value (in coin) of the other stuff coming from the packs exceeds the amount of coin the ToBL are injecting into the economy. That helps explain the coin prices for the other prizes dropping over time. I assumed it was due to market saturation (the heavy rollers already bought theirs, and the remaining people were more price-sensitive). But I think the deflationary effect of your explanation makes sense too. Both are probably contributing.

    As for how it relates to gold prices, I'm not sure anymore.
  • Darksylph - Heavens Tear
    Darksylph - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,816 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    Exactly. People are talking about ToBL (so using this from now) as if they are the only things that appears out of nowhere. "ToBL causes inflation!!!11!one!!eleven". It's a lot more complicated than that.

    You need to take a class in economics by the way you're talking. Of course goods appear out of nowhere. Everytime someone farms TT that happens as well. But anytime things are sold, money merely exchanges hands, it does not leave the system. The tokens however add to the cumulative wealth of the server, and their willingness to spend larger sums.

    What causes inflation, is when the amount of money in the system keeps on growing. The more money injected into the system from thin air, the more money people have to spend and prices raise. Whats even worse, is inflation is also caused by the amount of transactions occuring in a given period of time increasing as well. Meaning if people hoard their money, prices go down, but if ppl spend, and in turn whoever they gave the money to, spends it, and then again that 3rd person spends it, prices raise. So tons of goods that everyone wants to buy entering a system also increases inflation. Everything the packs do cause inflation in rapid proportions.
  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Genesis wrote:
    This whole theory that tokens of best luck has caused the inflation is totally flawed. Comments like it creates 10 million coins out of thin air etc etc blah blah, dosn't make any sense. The chance of getting a token of best luck is 1.7% (worth 5 mil) the chance of getting a token is 97% (worth 10k). Deeeerrrrrr lets see me no mathy matician but would on average that would cause a loss of coins overall than say if someone charged zen then sold the gold on the AH.


    Yes packs have caused inflation because more people have charged more zen to buy packs, but this can't be directly linked to tokens of best luck.

    You're forgetting that ToL does not make items that have NPC worth. e.g socket stones maybe worth 13k each, but NPCs buys it for 100coins. Therefore players will sell that to fellow players, leading to no coins conjured.

    But, 10m bank note is worth 10m, sells to NPC for 10m, so players will not try and sell it to a fellow player, but they'll NPC it.
  • Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear
    Nowitsawn - Heavens Tear Posts: 4,864 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide wrote: »
    You're forgetting that ToL does not make items that have NPC worth. e.g socket stones maybe worth 13k each, but NPCs buys it for 100coins. Therefore players will sell that to fellow players, leading to no coins conjured.

    But, 10m bank note is worth 10m, sells to NPC for 10m, so players will not try and sell it to a fellow player, but they'll NPC it.

    ToL have an NPC value of 10k each though.

    Buy wine for 10 tokens -> trade it at the matchmaker for wedding money -> NPC for 100k

    Not that people actually do that, but still.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    They do lol? I knew I should've brought those tokens for 9.5k b:sad

    p.s lol siggy again
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Genesis - Lost City wrote: »
    Indeed it isn't difficult to understand, not sure why so many people think "tokens of best luck" is what is causing the gold price to inflate. Do you truely believe that if they remove the best luck tokens from the packs that the the gold price will drop?

    Yes, for several good reasons.

    If you remove 10 Million Big Notes from the Luck Trade, the Perfect Tokens of Best Luck lose more than half their value and then fall to the next valuable item, the Chrono page. This would settle them down to about 2.2-2.5 million each, possibly less if they reintroduce Tiger or Anniversary packs with higher drop rates.

    Remove 10-Million Big Notes from the Luck Trade and there isn't as much incentive to buy packs. The price of gold will decrease because not as many people will be willing to buy packs. This is why they will never be removed.

    Removing the Perfect Token of Best Luck would decrease the new coin generation considerably. I'm sure you remember seeing how many of the red spam come up? People like Shinzoko, PC, or any other number of players has tons of them. At one point PC had over 70 Perfect Tokens of Best Luck just from opening packs. That's 350m new coin, just from one person. Name any other item that would give one person that much power for new coin creation. There are many other people like him that you don't even know about.

    So think what you will, I'm sure I'm on the right side of this debate.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You know, that's actually a really good point. I'm not sure of the answer either (I get enough headaches trying to shift my money between US$ and CA$).

    FWIW, I dug up the spreadsheet where I valued the packs (looks like I remembered the values wrong - they are worse than I remember). Here are the figures I came up with on the value of the ToBL vs. other stuff coming out of the packs, factoring in the chance to get them. The market prices were from earlier in the year (I haven't been able to play much this summer) so are a bit out of date. And I don't have data on the Sunshine packs since they just showed up in PWDB.

    Anniv Packs
    Total value: 262k
    ToBL: 32.7% of total

    Coral Packs
    Total value: 193k
    ToBL: 18.7%

    Tiger Packs
    Total value: 274k
    ToBL: 31.4%

    So yes, you're right, the value (in coin) of the other stuff coming from the packs exceeds the amount of coin the ToBL are injecting into the economy. That helps explain the coin prices for the other prizes dropping over time. I assumed it was due to market saturation (the heavy rollers already bought theirs, and the remaining people were more price-sensitive). But I think the deflationary effect of your explanation makes sense too. Both are probably contributing.

    As for how it relates to gold prices, I'm not sure anymore.

    For as complex as the issue is the answer is actually pretty simple and one of common sense, IMO.

    10m Big Notes are still causing inflation. Many people who chose to get these items end up charging gold for it. They sell for coin and then buy the item. Many people who buy the gold use it for whatever, but a lot of the event item dealers continue to buy gold and open or sell packs. The fact there are extra items now available really mean nothing. The fact is really that the 10M Big Notes creates new coin and that the event items that come from packs motivates people to buy gold so they can get them. As soon as the market is fully saturated gold prices should, in theory, drop. With less Perfect Tokens of Best Luck dropping, less people buying event items, less people buying gold to sell, the market prices come back down. As noted from the number of times that Coral Packs replaced packs that drop better. Crappy packs = less buyers = lower gold prices.

    I know that doesn't completely describe your point... perhaps this would help:

    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    Very valueable goods such as gears or regular tokens also came from packs, which also appear out of nowhere. Aren't the coins from Best Luck balanced out by goods from other packs? Packs without Best Luck would just be tons of goods flooding the market without coins to match them.

    People who spend money on the better packs are far more likely to get PToBL than any of the other times. People who open a lot end up getting more coin, so they're actually willing to pay more for these items. People who open packs to merchant all the items often buy these items only to resell them for far higher prices. Why do they get better prices, because more coin has been generated so there are a few buyers willing to spend more to obtain that last item.

    If PToBL were never introduced in the first place, I don't think event items would have increased in value much more than they were during the first few weeks of aniversary packs.

    Then again, without a rollback and making this change and watching it mature over a year's course isn't possible, so it's all conjecture really.


    The two things we can be sure of is: The creation of 10 Million Big Notes increases the amount of coin in the economy. The creation of new items that does not consume coin does not decrease the coin supply.

    As to how these two may counteract each other... that's where the real debate lies. Sadly many people here can't accept these two issues as fact.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Aubree - Dreamweaver
    Aubree - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,868 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    All coins ingame are generated out of thin air. It would be nice if PWI could supply some kind of chart showing where it is generated.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    OMFG QQ Moar!

    The more coin in the system, the more people spend. The coin doesn't go back into the system: it's invested in the characters. When a person makes a second toon and shares items, does that create a surpluss of coin? -NO! The player continues to spend coin building up their character whether it be items, xp (oracales, xp stones, etc). So please stop with the nonsense of "it just changes hands", because often that coin is gonna be gone: b:bye

    I've said it before in the past, and I'll say it again: Devs and GMs have generally controlled the price of gold from the start. They needed ~100k per to get us going. Now they need 400K+ to keep us from being able to play for a living.

    Despite all these atrocious allegations, the price is fairly stable which some just ignore. -That indicates control. They have it under control. Everything is fine. Rage quit or carry on. **** or get off the pot, or waste your summer arguing about nonsense.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    tweakz wrote: »
    The more coin in the system, the more people spend. The coin doesn't go back into the system: it's invested in the characters.

    For the last time... The money that a character has is part of the total money in the system. Idiot.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • tweakz
    tweakz Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    For the last time... The money that a character has is part of the total money in the system. Idiot.

    I do't get ur poit ftard.
    Be kind: Help the GMs to depopulate the servers.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    There are two types of stupid, one benefits humanity the other drags it down. Many people often say or do stupid things, however the trait called intelligence gives them the chance to realize their stupidity and correct it. Civilization has given humanity the ability to keep the gene pool from weeding out the other type. Natural Selection is a thing of the past.
    tweakz wrote: »
    I do't get ur poit ftard.

    Of course you don't.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • RainKilganon - Lost City
    RainKilganon - Lost City Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Im just gonna point out one thing. It was mentioned by another poster, but I want to put it into a little detail. To the guy who was arguing that deflation occurs because more goods are being generated, that is not true at all.

    You say that new gear is being generated out of the blue, and yes, thats true. But the same thing could ALWAYS be said. If I farm mats for ult subs, do tons of HHs, and eventually get my HH100 gear, where did that come from? Technically, aside from hard work, it came out of mid air. I put NO money into the system to make that gear. Same for any gear that can be made with what drops.

    I buy a pack, and get that gear? It also comes out of no where. Either way, I put no coins into the system for it. Regardless of if that gear is better or not, its the same. And besides, if that uber gear was never released in packs, you wouldnt miss it anyways.

    But I buy those same packs, and get BL tokens, all of a sudden I have an instant 10 mil. Nothing going into the system but the BLs, but out comes 10mil more than was there 5 seconds ago.

    No deflation occurs, because gear ALWAYS came out of no where. This is just a new method of it.
    "I'm in the Dark, I'm alone around you. I've been here before, nobody here to get me through. Oh, I'm losing my faith in every way, That points to you, I'm in the dark." <3 The Birthday Massacre
  • Aubree - Dreamweaver
    Aubree - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,868 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    RainKilganon - Lost City wrote: »
    Im just gonna point out one thing. It was mentioned by another poster, but I want to put it into a little detail. To the guy who was arguing that deflation occurs because more goods are being generated, that is not true at all.
    You say that new gear is being generated out of the blue, and yes, thats true. But the same thing could ALWAYS be said. If I farm mats for ult subs, do tons of HHs, and eventually get my HH100 gear, where did that come from? Technically, aside from hard work, it came out of mid air. I put NO money into the system to make that gear. Same for any gear that can be made with what drops.

    I buy a pack, and get that gear? It also comes out of no where. Either way, I put no coins into the system for it. Regardless of if that gear is better or not, its the same. And besides, if that uber gear was never released in packs, you wouldnt miss it anyways.

    But I buy those same packs, and get BL tokens, all of a sudden I have an instant 10 mil. Nothing going into the system but the BLs, but out comes 10mil more than was there 5 seconds ago.

    No deflation occurs, because gear ALWAYS came out of no where. This is just a new method of it.

    Wrong, the more rare an item is in game the more people will pay for it. If a lot of people have it, it cuts down on the demand side. Therefore you will have to sell for less. Remember when Lunar cape was rare, we had months of packs without Lunars in them? Price went to 70-90 mill.. They are dropping again from packs, now price is about 45 mill. Same for most molds before BH, you used to be able to sell easily for a higher price.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Wrong, the more rare an item is in game the more people will pay for it. If a lot of people have it, it cuts down on the demand side. Therefore you will have to sell for less. Remember when Lunar cape was rare, we had months of packs without Lunars in them? Price went to 70-90 mill.. They are dropping again from packs, now price is about 45 mill. Same for most molds before BH, you used to be able to sell easily for a higher price.

    Valuation is a bit differnt that inflation/deflation. Inflation or deflation usually refers to the value of the actual money. On PWI that's actually difficult to judge as there is no real base standard to compare it against and if you compare it to different items or standards, you'll get different results. The value of an item increases as it's availability decreases or it's demand increases. Whether or not that item is worth more or less now than it was then doesn't really change the value of coin. I also have a hard time saying that the value of coin is based upon the gold trader current prices, because those prices are often manipulated and is volatile. Just thought I'd add that. b:surrender
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Aubree - Dreamweaver
    Aubree - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,868 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    I thought they were talking deflated pricing of items, being that anything npc based does not decrease in price. Is the topic of delfation gold only? Cause that only goes down when we have crappy fash sale etc. Just to add that dust of devil was priced at 3 mill each solid at one time, double drops and higher lvls made it easy to get, price hasnt been above 40-500k for them lately.
  • RainKilganon - Lost City
    RainKilganon - Lost City Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    I thought they were talking deflated pricing of items, being that anything npc based does not decrease in price. Is the topic of delfation gold only? Cause that only goes down when we have crappy fash sale etc.

    I was referring more to the point that an above poster made that deflation occurs because the amount of new goods being entered into the market counters, and defeats, the new coins being entered. I wasnt trying to make note of the current worth of said items, just commenting on how he said that they are being made out of mid-air. My point was that they always were made out of mid-air.

    And as for how much they are worth, thats all dependent on how much coin is generated as well. If there are less coins to buy the items with, then the prices of those items will be lower by default.

    Also, as a side note, Supply and demand cant really work when the supply is technically infinite, so of course as more are generated the price per item lowers. But the same can be said about HH mats. They used to be outrageously priced in comparison with how it is today. Thats because more are introduced into the server every day, and an astounding rate.

    EDIT: you ninja edit'd meh and made the same point about hh
    "I'm in the Dark, I'm alone around you. I've been here before, nobody here to get me through. Oh, I'm losing my faith in every way, That points to you, I'm in the dark." <3 The Birthday Massacre
  • Aubree - Dreamweaver
    Aubree - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,868 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    So what do people feel is a good price for gold? I personally think that 400k gold is expensive, but again I don't expect to pull into a dealership and see a honda and a benz priced the same. I think that as we lvl and we better our gear it just costs more. What people are willing to pay determines that.

    Sidenote I woke today with a cold, so my head is foggy :(
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    This issue is really giving me a headache.
    Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You need to take a class in economics by the way you're talking. Of course goods appear out of nowhere. Everytime someone farms TT that happens as well. But anytime things are sold, money merely exchanges hands, it does not leave the system. The tokens however add to the cumulative wealth of the server, and their willingness to spend larger sums.

    What causes inflation, is when the amount of money in the system keeps on growing. The more money injected into the system from thin air, the more money people have to spend and prices raise. Whats even worse, is inflation is also caused by the amount of transactions occuring in a given period of time increasing as well. Meaning if people hoard their money, prices go down, but if ppl spend, and in turn whoever they gave the money to, spends it, and then again that 3rd person spends it, prices raise. So tons of goods that everyone wants to buy entering a system also increases inflation. Everything the packs do cause inflation in rapid proportions.

    Of course goods appeared out of nowhere before the packs. I acknowledged that in my posts. But goods have not appeared at the same rate without packs. You get normal tokens most of the time and that can be traded for various goods. The tokens are not the only thing that adds coins to the system. Grinding DQ and NPCing those does the same thing. Coins are created on a daily bases in PW. A server started out with 0 coins in the system. Since both coins and goods appeared out of nowhere before, it's their ratio that the packs add to the system that matters.

    Note that IRL countries print money on a daily bases to match the goods produced. I don't know too much about this, but from what I do know, they print money to match the "demand" for money due to the increase in goods. If we are using goods to "buy" coins, and there's an oversupply of goods but not increase in coins to match it, then "inflation" happens to the goods and coins "get more expensive" in terms of how many goods it takes to "buy them". That's the same thing as deflation in coins.

    RainKilganon - Lost City wrote: »
    You say that new gear is being generated out of the blue, and yes, thats true. But the same thing could ALWAYS be said. If I farm mats for ult subs, do tons of HHs, and eventually get my HH100 gear, where did that come from? Technically, aside from hard work, it came out of mid air. I put NO money into the system to make that gear. Same for any gear that can be made with what drops.

    I buy a pack, and get that gear? It also comes out of no where. Either way, I put no coins into the system for it. Regardless of if that gear is better or not, its the same. And besides, if that uber gear was never released in packs, you wouldnt miss it anyways.

    But I buy those same packs, and get BL tokens, all of a sudden I have an instant 10 mil. Nothing going into the system but the BLs, but out comes 10mil more than was there 5 seconds ago.

    No deflation occurs, because gear ALWAYS came out of no where. This is just a new method of it.

    Like I said above, so did coins. It's the speed at which they are generated from nowhere that changes their ratio, therefore changes their respected values.

    Another thing that I'm unsure about is that the goods sold at NPC, pots, shards etc. are not affected by the supply and demand. They will always stay at the same price, unless devs change them. More coins in the system make those items "cheaper". I'm not sure how this factor into everything, but just something more to add to this confusing picture.
  • Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary
    Ms_HopToIt - Sanctuary Posts: 914 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    So what do people feel is a good price for gold? I personally think that 400k gold is expensive, but again I don't expect to pull into a dealership and see a honda and a benz priced the same. I think that as we lvl and we better our gear it just costs more. What people are willing to pay determines that.

    Sidenote I woke today with a cold, so my head is foggy :(

    That all depends on the individual person. Some ppl refuse to buy it at 400k, others choose to anyways even though they dislike it. This is the way ppl are: They LOVE selling the gold at 400k if they get their hands on it, and they know ppl will buy it because that's the normal price of gold now, but when they are on the buying end of the deal, they start to QQ about the prices.
    >.<
  • Telarith - Sanctuary
    Telarith - Sanctuary Posts: 1,417 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Plus consider the changes hyper and such have contributed to deflation, which people have mentioned often. No one is out there grinding their levels, and considering the increased populations as well as increased coin gain by higher levels, and you'd need to compare that to coin gained from ToBL being converted to 10 mil notes minus the difference in coing gained from TW.

    For our server, price peaked at 5XXK with the anni packs, and hasn't gone back there yet. If ToBL were the cause, and it is as bad as people say, it should have gone back to there and surpassed it after a whole freaking year of those packs about. ToBL converted to 10 mil notes are usually used to defray the cost of continued gambling in trying to get the good eq chances from packs for an over-all profit. Gold doesn't quickly reset, because of all us merchants (though currently not anymore on my part). When gold price falls, they start to buy up gold at a cheaper rate, since they know at worst they can rebuy packs for cheaper when they come back. At worst, it helps keep the price of gold at a steady decrease to prevent a profit loss on all the stock they still have.

    Merchants like steady markets, with price spikes only when it benefits them. With so many now involved, and such a large amount invested in it, they will be working to prevent rapid devaluation of gold cost even with packs gone. It would take a while, and each time other good sales happen will keep gold prices up there for a while. Then there would be the lowered incentive to charge and sell gold, with less benefit to do so. Would take months to lower to a cheaper amount, and high levels making huge profits in end game TT areas would be buying it up and preventing low price irregardless.
    Fist are the worst at PvP AND PvE, if you disagree, as I said, take it to PM's or make your own guide. Go here if you want to debate about it. - Lyndura

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    :NOTE: These signatures are to forever immortalize, how stupid people can be.
  • XylolyX - Heavens Tear
    XylolyX - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,097 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Wrong, the more rare an item is in game the more people will pay for it. If a lot of people have it, it cuts down on the demand side. Therefore you will have to sell for less. Remember when Lunar cape was rare, we had months of packs without Lunars in them? Price went to 70-90 mill.. They are dropping again from packs, now price is about 45 mill. Same for most molds before BH, you used to be able to sell easily for a higher price.


    I was gonna say the same thing...certain molds used to bring easily 400-500k in AH. Now we're lucky to sell them for 50K.
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  • Darksylph - Heavens Tear
    Darksylph - Heavens Tear Posts: 1,816 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »
    Note that IRL countries print money on a daily bases to match the goods produced. I don't know too much about this, but from what I do know, they print money to match the "demand" for money due to the increase in goods. If we are using goods to "buy" coins, and there's an oversupply of goods but not increase in coins to match it, then "inflation" happens to the goods and coins "get more expensive" in terms of how many goods it takes to "buy them". That's the same thing as deflation in coins.

    Well here's an article showing how countries that do that destroy their economy & its done by politicians who know nothing about economics. In the United States, new money is printed to make up for destroying old money (and i mean that literally, old raggy crumpled currency is removed from circulation and replaced).

    Please note your own phrase " I don't know too much about this". So please stop talking about what you dont know.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5477221.ece

    Oh and here's another;

    http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-22178894_ITM

    In fact its pretty well documented anywhere that you DONT print money arbitrarily, it only hurts an economy by cause inflation & stagflation. Please, learn economics and dont try to apply false logic which fails.
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Well here's an article showing how countries that do that destroy their economy & its done by politicians who know nothing about economics. In the United States, new money is printed to make up for destroying old money (and i mean that literally, old raggy crumpled currency is removed from circulation and replaced).

    Please note your own phrase " I don't know too much about this". So please stop talking about what you dont know.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article5477221.ece

    Oh and here's another;

    http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-22178894_ITM

    In fact its pretty well documented anywhere that you DONT print money arbitrarily, it only hurts an economy by cause inflation & stagflation. Please, learn economics and dont try to apply false logic which fails.

    That's talking about printing money with nothing to back it up, i.e. creating the total amount of money in the system, causing each unit of money to loose value. Are you saying that US has only been printing money to replace the ones that get damaged? So the amount of money in the US has been constant through out the years while goods have increased? I wasn't talking about what Japan did, which randomly printed money and caused massive inflation. Note my entire sentence, to match the goods produced, not just to have more money around to feel like they are more rich.

    If you are such expert at economy, surely you know that increase in goods with constant money in a system means each item gets cheaper, i.e. deflation.
  • Aubree - Dreamweaver
    Aubree - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,868 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    The USA also creates money from nothing. In todays times it is done digitally through loans.
  • Okeano - Harshlands
    Okeano - Harshlands Posts: 4,943 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Let's not go into US economy because s**t gets complicated. I used it as an example but maybe it wasn't the best one.

    Imagine PWI as a box. There are 100 items in the box and 1000 coins. Each item is worth 10 coins. if there are now 200 items but still 1000 coins, each item is worth 5 coins. To keep the price of the item constant, you need 1000 more coins in the system. Darksylph somehow believes that's inflation.
    Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What causes inflation, is when the amount of money in the system keeps on growing. The more money injected into the system from thin air, the more money people have to spend and prices raise.

    According to the quote above, any growth in coins supply causes inflation, no matter what's happening to the goods. Which means that, according to Darksylph, 2000 coins with 300 items in a box is more inflated than 1000 coins with 100 items in a box, even tho the value of each item are actually cheaper in the 300 item box.
  • Aquilez - Sanctuary
    Aquilez - Sanctuary Posts: 240 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Fuzzy_Wuzzy - Raging Tide wrote: »

    As to when the prices swing, no, it has very little to do with the packs being added or removed. If you actually watched the market, it swings determined on the demand and availability of gold. Generally it bumps up on a friday/saturday (presumably based on the demand increasing as more people want to acquire charms for upcoming TW's) and it generally falls around the middle and end of the month. (presumably based on the fact this is when people get paid in RL, charge some zen, and the amount available in the AH increases.)b:shutup

    is a fact that best luck tokens put more money in game than TW pay used to, prices dont go even higher because people dont pay for more than that, people dont sell for less because they rather gambling with the packs than selling for under 400k

    also following your own arguments, with packs arround gold demand go up because people want to try luck with the packs leaving less gold on sale and those who sale can control price

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