Why do the 2 Best tokens = 10m cause inflation?

tweakz

I fail ->denial -> find scapegoat -> blame economy -> economy is fine so have to fabricate an argument -> get butt sore and insult those that aren't my fellow fails because they won't help me as a charity case.

Devoted - Lost City

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Even if you look at the increase price of gold, it wasn't a steady increase, as it would if it's inflated by increased coins. Price of gold jumped directly to 200k with chest of coins, then jumped directly to 400k due to anni packs. These increases in price are due to artificial demands manufactured by the devs, forcing 1 gold to worth more by changing what 1 gold can buy. The price of gold has been steady around 400k when packs are in while dropped back when packs are out. They went up a bit lately due to the increased demand of packs from the Duke shouts, but is leveling back down to 400k. If price of gold is getting inflated by ToBL, their price would have been on a steady increase over the past year.

This is where it gets tricky. Just because there is more coin in the economy doesn't mean the gold price has to rise.

Gold doesn't equal coins. Obviously that statement doesn't seem to make sense but it's the basic concept you need to understand why the gold price isn't rising. Gold and coin share common influences but also have their own factors.


-Disclaimer: Generalizations to the max-

Basically, we have enough cash shoppers in PWI that the supply of gold is usually more than the demand. Also since many endgame items cost a ton of coin people are more inclined to sell more at a lower price than wait and sell less at a higher price - such is the nature of the cash shopper. I'm guessing there isn't as much of an urge or need to buy gold as there is to sell it. This theory can be enforced by sales. When the packs are on sale the price of gold rises mainly due to the competition pack sellers have. I myself have raised the gold by 40-50k+ just by always having the top 'buy' price but I also notice when gold gets retardedly high due to this competition people start to really sell the gold in heaps. I guess the merchants who buy gold low and sell high AND the people who wait to cash shop till gold is at a peak really help in the capping of the gold price. Once my gold battle reaches around 475k I usually get a ton of gold in the next couple days - so much I run out of my money allotted to buying gold since I can't sell the packs fast enough.

So it seems right now the gold price isn't rising even though many coins are being added to the economy because the supply of gold ultimately triumphs the demand set by the players. I can see later when the game starts to lose players and the amount of people willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money declines the gold price will basically break the 999900 coin mark and will have to start being sold through world chat. Also if enough enticing sales get added and the demand rises I'm sure there is plenty of coin ready to break that bubble.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Okeano - Harshlands wrote: »

Now that the dumb ones are out of the way Michael, let's talk about my point.

lol.

Actually I did, if you read back a few pages...

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=9622262&postcount=71

I don't really have more to add than that. As Solandri even said somewhere in this thread, it's giving him a headache, and me too.

However judging the effect that more coins has on the economy is tough since so many other factors are involved.

What real stable economic pointers are there that you can base any real inflation/deflation/valuation on anyway? There really aren't many.

Green mat prices are far down due to more people leveling higher and farming as well as too many weeks of 2x drops. Can't use that as a base.

Event item prices can't really be factored as stable... the PToBL as well as the items come from packs, so using one to judge the other isn't all that feasable. Maybe you could jusitfy price ratio of either per pack opened, but that's not realistic.

Sorry, I really don't have a clue how you could realistically compare... I'm not an economist or mathematician and I'm not about to spend hours writing what could be a term paper for a game.

But we have two simple facts. 10 Million Big notes creates more coins. Even items do not ccreate more coins. How that all relates to the economy in whole is more complex than I care to think about. Obviously the large influx of coin has to have some effect. In the long run it can't be good.

However, using the TW pay as a primary source of inflation and removing it to help solve this issue is a blatant lie by the GMs. I think we can agree on that much.

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Okay let me explain this to you.

tweakz just doesn't get this... kenlee doesn't either. This fact has been explained to them at least a half dozen ways by a half dozen people. They just can't process it.

That's why having a debate with them is impossible. They're just arguing out of ego. They can't have a debate because they can't even grasp the simple foundation which these debates actually start from.

To have an debate on a higher topic, one must understand the fundamentals. They cannot grasp it so any further discussion is pointless.

It's like trying to argue physics to someone who can't or won't understand that 1 + 1 = 2.

kenlee

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

*sigh*

You still don't get it.

get what? your point was about a closed circuit where monies are transferred from a player to another or something like that. my point is about pwe gaining more money this way no matter what players do... its all based on players flaws

Devoted - Lost City wrote: »

Okay let me explain this to you. When you buy a pack you are giving money to somebody else. No coin is lost and no coin is gained it is just transferred between players. When you open the pack you are creating coin out of nothing. Coins don't disappear when a pack is opened they only appear. If you open a pack and only get tokens you are adding 15 tokens worth of coin to the economy (trade the tokens for something NPCable for coin) this might be a very small increase of coin but it is an increase nonetheless. If you get a best luck from the pack you just added 5 million more coins into the economy. If best lucks are continually being injected into the economy with nothing to balance this out the amount of coins in the economy grows. \

and? this i disagree with this? i already said that its not RL, its not a closed circuit like michael said and so on. coins and goods were created from nothing anyway (lets say even cube gives 5mil box with probably same chance, tw salary, npcing DQ items) but with packs those old methods of gaining coins/goods have no more value or lets say far from efficient and require little to no effort to do it (players laziness) plus directly involve yours/others RL money. putting tobl (that have highest chance after regular tokens) on shouts... another thing to gain money based on human/players flaws.

good amount of coins are injected in pw with RL money, so what... do they care about inflation/deflation? it only makes a false impression that some ppl can be rich and gonna make coins circulate in game even more to gain power as a player. a false/artificial economy created around the same thing, RL money which sadly for them also accelerate the death of the game. probably lots of coins going to sink by buying red mats/illusion stones/other gold mats/wines/books/pots, doesnt matter. its about pwi making more money coz there is no real choose.

im just a reseller in this artificial economy, more ppl found this way to play the game to give them the impression that they are rich and can buy good gear... just enough to stimulate others that spend money to spend more just to compete with the others. it works for pwe, they gain monies but also accelerate the death of the game

kenlee

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

tweakz just doesn't get this... kenlee doesn't either. This fact has been explained to them at least a half dozen ways by a half dozen people. They just can't process it.

That's why having a debate with them is impossible. They're just arguing out of ego. They can't have a debate because they can't even grasp the simple foundation which these debates actually start from.

To have an debate on a higher topic, one must understand the fundamentals. They cannot grasp it so any further discussion is pointless.

It's like trying to argue physics to someone who can't or won't understand that 1 + 1 = 2.

lol your are kinda stupid, i studied physics and really 1+1 is 1 in many cases
the fact that you didnt understand my point is sad but understanding your own point gives you the false impression that you know the fundamentals of mmo's economy

Summer_Blush - Heavens Tear

This is why GM's don't read this ****, all you people do is argue over ego

put your handbags down and go outside

kenlee

GM's do what? its not like they are responsible for implementing packs or they manage PWE monies/marketing. tell that to the people that own a database and run some numbers and statistics

Mraochan - Lost City

kenlee wrote: »

why do ppl compare RL with a game?

You answered yourself in the same post.

kenlee wrote: »

either way is about buying with RL money and with money generated with RL money...

PWRD Stocks on the stock market, that's real life...

Pretty sure most of us typing on the keyboards here are real live human beings... (although I wonder sometimes...)

Let me guess, the internet doesn't exist in real life either, does it? b:chuckle

kenlee

Mraochan - Lost City wrote: »

You answered yourself in the same post.



PWRD Stocks on the stock market, that's real life...

Pretty sure most of us typing on the keyboards here are real live human beings... (although I wonder sometimes...)

Let me guess, the internet doesn't exist in real life either, does it? b:chuckle

1st its about their analogy with real life. in a game the amount of resources can be infinite, goods come out of nowhere. in a perfect world where most players can get nirvana items sharded and refined with just ingame tools (tt/nirvana drops, shards drops from gv, mirages from tt/quests) w/o anyone spending a dime
2nd thing its about pwe making more monies of this artificial economy created

Michael_Dark - Lost City

kenlee wrote: »

lol your are kinda stupid, i studied physics and really 1+1 is 1 in many cases
the fact that you didnt understand my point is sad but understanding your own point gives you the false impression that you know the fundamentals of mmo's economy

No, you really don't get it. I understood your point, it's about individual profit/loss which has absolutely nothing to do with the economy. Someone's individaul profit/loss has no direct bearing on the economy. Whether or not you buy something and then make an immense loss at selling it or the other way around... it doesn't effect the economy just the balance in your individual finances.

Which comes to the rant about your post, it's not that I don't disagree with what you said, but none of that matters concerning the topic at hand, with the exception of this statement:

kenlee wrote: »

then it comes the other part with packs and tobl. its like playing at lottery, some ppl gain tobl, most people 'lose' coins by getting just tokens of luck.

There are 3 possibilites of opening packs. The first is that your 'investment' will yield profit if you receive an item that can be sold for more. The second is that your investment may not yield items that may not cover your costs. The third is that you may create a LOT of coin out of thin air that did not previously exist. Yes, these all affect the individual, but only the third possibility may have an effect to the overall economy. In any real sense, it's NOT gambling any more than Publisher's Clearing House is gambling, except if you win that, the money doesn't just instantly appear out of nowhere.

With the discussion about economics compared to real life... you can get a job and earn money, you can make an investment and lose money, you can also get a loan, but the Perfect Tokens of Best Luck would pretty much amount to buying a printer and some paper and printing millions of dollars and going on a spending spree.

THAT is what you and most other people just don't seem to be able to grasp.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

THAT is what you and most other people just don't seem to be able to grasp.

Its because most people have a decent understanding of micro-economics (which boils down to supply & deman curves) and try to explain away everything using that. But a whole lot fewer have any decent understanding of macro-economics, which deals with the study of money coming in & going out & circulating within a system as a whole. Without that understanding, they think supply & demand determines all inflation/deflation, meanwhile it only works for a specific good or a specific job, and not the overall whole market system.

Common expression: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

kenlee

its clear that 1st possibility, which is kinda small, is about creating an item out of nowhere. you can either use it and there will be N - 1 players that need that item (not gonna buy it) or sell it or trade it. more goods of the same type will cause the market to cut the price, less coins are traded but more players can afford to buy it assuming that their initial amount of coins is the same. flooding the market with same item can get to the point where market is saturated and more people already have that item so they dont need it and you can take a 'loss' by selling it. this possibility encourage the people to spend more RL money, either by making some rival players stronger and you have to even things out by gearing yourself or just by the fact that others see how lucky you can be in a game. in the mean time, some people still create coins out of nowhere, someone npced like 200 DQ items or other player just won at the 5mil box in cube, or system sent tw salary with coins out of nowhere. either way some players are injecting some coins. if this game was played by chinese and not a bunch of lazy western players, the amount of free coins out of nowhere were incredibly high.

2st possibility... most of the people are in this category. statistically speaking like 95% of packs contains regular tokens. other goods, created from tokens, injected on the market. most of the players take a 'RL loss' by buying packs directly with rl monies. the player that had to buy them with coins is just now one less geared or poorer player. those less geared and poor players still need to buy x item to be strong so there will be a demand of packs. strange enough this possibility also encourage the people to spend more RL money

3rd possibility, injecting coins in the system. how much coins are injected with btol? so statistically speaking if there are 138 players clicking packs right now there is one that will get a btol (0.72% chance). if there is only one player clicking there is still a low chance to get btol, i know players that spend thousands on packs just to get plat mp charms and some btol. anyway btol are coins out of nothing when you make a 10mil bank note, till then there are still new goods on market since you can create red mats or chronos pages. well we are talking about that 10mil coins out of nowhere. someone that spent RL monies on packs and got a few btol and npced them for coins will have more coins to buy their TT mats or nirvana mats or things from other players and can avoid selling one of his items or two. less goods on market, more coins in the system usually ppl called this inflation. for another player to get 1 btol from packs with coins, need to spend about 138 x 400k coins which is like 55mil coins. with 55mil coin you can get like 1 btol and 2k tokens, that means like 5mil coins on btol and 2k tokens (10 tokens -> 1 wine -> triumph money -> 100k) which is like 20mil just from regular tokens. someone got 55mil your money and you got 25mil in coins out of nowhere. so statistically speaking packs alone inject more coins not just btol. 5mil as btol vs 20mil as regular tokens from 138 packs? im sure if you want to win just a 5mil bank note (btol) you can just trade 55mil to another player for 5mil boxes from cube and for sure you get at least one lucky box just to inject 5mil out of nothing. anyway the final result is an artificial economy created around packs that increase (even accelerate) the number good geared players (potential enemies). remember that in the mean time there are still players that inject coins in the system in the free way like i said in 1st paragraph but is way too hard the old way. most players arent chinese that farm all day dq items and such so lazy ppl prefer to spend 5 bucks a week (that can get it in like half hour with a RL job) for a charm instead of farming all day(s) long. circulating coins that comes from tokens/botl are much more that the free way and that will be the real market/economy. this possibility also encourage the people to spend more RL money. and again regular tokens alone inject like 4 times more coins in the system that btol alone.

my point was about creating an artificial economy around packs that will replace the economy based on free farming coz free farming doesnt really involve much rl monies or can be a little dependent from rl monies which is a loss for pwe. any of the above three possibilities involving spending rl monies so any of the cases is a win situation for pwe. based on human flaws people spend more rl monies in this game this way. the game gets mature much faster, ppl get geared much faster, death of the game is much closer and so on but pwe making a lot more monies of you.

Quilue - Sanctuary

5m platinum boxes don't inject coin into the economy because they cost coin to dig up and the chance to win 5m as opposed to getting 1 coin is low enough that it evens out. On the whole the server gains almost nothing from the 5m boxes:

0.02 * (5,000,000 - 100,000) - 0.98 * 99,999 = 0.98coins

2% chance to win 5m from a platinum box doesn't inject coin into the game because someone dug up those boxes somewhere for 100k each.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

5m platinum boxes don't inject coin into the economy because they cost coin to dig up and the chance to win 5m as opposed to getting 1 coin is low enough that it evens out. On the whole the server gains almost nothing from the 5m boxes:

0.02 * (5,000,000 - 100,000) - 0.98 * 99,999 = 0.98coins

2% chance to win 5m from a platinum box doesn't inject coin into the game because someone dug up those boxes somewhere for 100k each.

[Forum] VILKASS: Hey Quil b:bye

I might be wrong... But every single pack needed gold to initially be bought; whether it's you purchasing Gold or grinding/merchanting/etc $ then using the Gold trader & buying Gold who smb else has purchased. It's injecting outside money into the pwi-eco.

It's like you snapping your fingers & getting a magical printing machine: mostly when you use it, it produces pictures that you might be able to sell for 1$ or use as toilet paper/napkins/etc, but also has a 0.02 chance to print a real 100$ bill.

<.< Now imagine you not the only one who can snap your fingers....

kenlee

maybe im lucky that i got more than spent on 5mil boxes but was an example. could be as well dq drops, tw coins and so on. tw coins are gone, remember when mobs usually had a price when tamed? i guess there is gonna be a 1 coin price for dq too in the future. all to replace free economy with this new economy created from packs. even if they remove btol from packs, you can sell regular tokens that brings 4 times more coins to pwi than btol

Quilue - Sanctuary

VlLKASS - Sanctuary wrote: »

[Forum] VILKASS: Hey Quil b:bye

I might be wrong... But every single pack needed gold to initially be bought; whether it's you purchasing Gold or grinding/merchanting/etc $ then using the Gold trader & buying Gold who smb else has purchased. It's injecting outside money into the pwi-eco.

It's like you snapping your fingers & getting a magical printing machine: mostly when you use it, it produces pictures that you might be able to sell for 1$ or use as toilet paper/napkins/etc, but also has a 0.02 chance to print a real 100$ bill.

<.< Now imagine you not the only one who can snap your fingers....

5m boxes from cube. I was replying to Kenlee's assertion that they inject coin into the system

Asperitas - Lost City

Money is a nominal variable. In the long run where the classical dichotomy applies, prices are perfectly flexible and output is fixed, any change in the money supply (the amount of coins in the economy) only serves to change the price level - inflation.

Only in the short run, where prices tend to be relatively sticky and fixed, does increases in the money supply affect the real output of the economy.

In this case, it doesn't matter how much coins you have. In the long run, where all the markets are in equilibrium, that is, nobody has the incentive to farm more TT than they already are, nobody has the incentive to purchase more dragon orbs, etc etc, any increase in the money supply only serves to increase the prices - a nominal variable. The amount of goods in the economy remains the same, so the prices rise (MV = PY, velocity of money fixed, Y is fixed, therefore 1:1 relationship between M and P). The value of coin is devalued. While you may be sitting on a billion coins, there's only so much output the economy is willing to produce, and as such you're really no better off. That's why too much injection of tokens of best lucks cause rampant inflation - it's the equivalent to printing off massive amounts of money every day.

That's why most countries monitor their inflation very closely, and it's not always they increase money supply. You have to scale it with the growth of your GDP.

VlLKASS - Sanctuary

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

5m boxes from cube

[Forum] VILKASS: Oh if you meant the excitements from Cube ONLY yeah (-.- I lost more on those than I have gained), but I was assuming the discussion is the pack 10m notes. b:bye Carry on

Michael_Dark - Lost City

kenlee wrote: »

my point was about creating an artificial economy around packs that will replace the economy based on free farming coz free farming doesnt really involve much rl monies or can be a little dependent from rl monies

Ok, I mostly agree with your points now that you've put them into context.

I'm looking at it from the standpoint that RL money (as well as the profits that PWI generates) or in-game coin that is actually spent for these packs is insignificant. Packs are introduced, they're opened and when 10m Big Notes are created that is new coin creation. Individual profit or loss don't matter. The price of the packs don't matter. It doesn't matter if they're 10 coins or 10,000,000 coins, or $10 each. The end-result is the same. It is a given that people will spend money on the game and whether or not they by pack or sell the gold for coin, there is no difference between the player who buys packs from coins in gold trader or one who buys it with real life cash, the net effect is the same.

And your point about free farming is a good one, I just wish you had differentiated that in the beginning or I wouldn't have taken your posts out of context.

I consider your thoughts on free farming as well as personal gain/loss from packs to be an individual one, in my posts I am talking about the effect of these actions are on a server wide basis. To me that's two separate topics.

_kaela_ - Raging Tide

It's simple, currency of any kind needs value behind it, The more currency is produced, the more items or w/e is of value needs to back it. W/O anything to back up new currency = inflated currency.


It's not the coins that are what we aim for when we spend/grind/save/vend, it's the items that we can get with it. But when the items become too expensive because there are too many ppl becoming instantly rich in-game via ToBL, they sell less (because in any economy the poor/middle class are the biggest consumers), thus reducing it's value.



The value of an item -most of the time- is determined by how often it is sold and how commonly present it is in the marketplace. If something isn't selling as it should, vendors will suffer, and may have to cut the price, making less profit. Another thing is farming inflation. Do you see the prices of molds on my server? I see the average pre-70 molds on sale for less than 500k, ridiculous. Why is that? Because the demand for the molds is low due to SO MANY ppl having the same idea to farm them for profit. Eventually the pre-70 group gets smaller, those molds can't sell forever, plus you have to consider the ppl that get the molds on their own or quit before reaching those levels.




The ToBL is just one out of MANY things that hurt the in-game economy, by no means do I think it is the main culprit. Greed, over-cash shopping, DQ nerfs, drop nerfs, high supply w/ low demand sales, speed leveling, Duke Blacke taunting the ppl that refuse to/flat out CAN'T cash shop to "come join in the buying bonanza", and so on is also what we have to worry about. In a fail economy, there are always several reasons it is the way it is, never just one.

kenlee

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Ok, I mostly agree with your points now that you've put them into context.

I'm looking at it from the standpoint that RL money (as well as the profits that PWI generates) or in-game coin that is actually spent for these packs is insignificant. Packs are introduced, they're opened and when 10m Big Notes are created that is new coin creation. Individual profit or loss don't matter. The price of the packs don't matter. It doesn't matter if they're 10 coins or 10,000,000 coins, or $10 each. The end-result is the same. It is a given that people will spend money on the game and whether or not they by pack or sell the gold for coin, there is no difference between the player who buys packs from coins in gold trader or one who buys it with real life cash, the net effect is the same.

And your point about free farming is a good one, I just wish you had differentiated that in the beginning or I wouldn't have taken your posts out of context.

I consider your thoughts on free farming as well as personal gain/loss from packs to be an individual one, in my posts I am talking about the effect of these actions are on a server wide basis. To me that's two separate topics.

yea you explained better than me. im just not good at explaining or english xD

about the tobl. well by statistics, along with 10mil big notes (2 tobl, 0.72% chance each) there are created tokens (98% chance) that can be turned into 40.8mil coins just npcing. on my server some ppl selling for 10.5k on catshops and if you put a buy shop you can buy it for 10k. if this price continue to decrease its better just to turn all tokens -> wines -> triumph money and you get your 10k/token (9.999 actually). anyway big amount of coins are injected with rl money

Michael_Dark - Lost City

kenlee wrote: »

yea you explained better than me. im just not good at explaining or english xD

about the tobl. well by statistics, along with 10mil big notes (2 tobl, 0.72% chance each) there are created tokens that can be turned into 40.8mil coins just npcing. on my server some ppl selling for 10.5k on catshops and if you put a buy shop you can buy it for 10k. if this price continue to decrease its better just to turn all tokens -> wines -> triumph money and you get your 10k/token (9.999 actually)

You really need to try to think of it as two different topics, that's why so many people are arguing. 10m Big Notes creates new coin. Selling tokens from packs gives you individual profits, it does not create new coin.

tweakz

_kaela_ - Raging Tide wrote: »

But when the items become too expensive because there are too many ppl becoming instantly rich in-game via ToBL, they sell less (because in any economy the poor/middle class are the biggest consumers), thus reducing it's value.

Didn't someone already point out that people lose on packs? They're better off trading gold for coin! The value of the token of best luck is piddly ****! 1/2 hours work and you could earn more than 2 worth during Nien event!

The value of an item -most of the time- is determined by how often it is sold and how commonly present it is in the marketplace. If something isn't selling as it should, vendors will suffer, and may have to cut the price, making less profit.

PWI controls prices through various methods like the implementation of the Mysterious Merchant and freebies like the school teacher ring. Cost of playing has gone down and rate of gain has gone up for non cash shoppers because of all the handouts. They also make steps to ensure that no one is getting rich off of exploiting their sales. Anyone playing 2 years ago can easily see how much easier it is to level up a player and save coin now.

Another thing is farming inflation. Do you see the prices of molds on my server? I see the average pre-70 molds on sale for less than 500k, ridiculous. Why is that? Because the demand for the molds is low due to SO MANY ppl having the same idea to farm them for profit.

Funny, I thought it was from BH runs. If mold prices are going down, cost of playing is going down, so why is there a problem?

The ToBL is just one out of MANY things that hurt the in-game economy, by no means do I think it is the main culprit. Greed, over-cash shopping, DQ nerfs, drop nerfs, high supply w/ low demand sales, speed leveling, Duke Blacke taunting the ppl that refuse to/flat out CAN'T cash shop to "come join in the buying bonanza", and so on is also what we have to worry about. In a fail economy, there are always several reasons it is the way it is, never just one.

Greed is what these QQ'ers are about. They want something for nothing. You have so many ways to earn coin in this game, but prefer to pan handle PWI. I grind a lot of my coin, and I don't complain about DQ prices going down. People that do are the same lazy asses that don't pick up coin (which amounts to more most often).

Oh, and these are all old arguments. What is this, 14 pages of recycling failed points?

Darksylph - Heavens Tear

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

You really need to try to think of it as two different topics, that's why so many people are arguing. 10m Big Notes creates new coin. Selling tokens from packs gives you individual profits, it does not create new coin.

What he's saying is there is soo much saturation on regular tokens, that people are starting to NPC them for 10k each. NPCing them IS new coins. Its not a direct NPC, you use tokens & turn it into a wine, which NPCs for 10k per token value. Since it is being sold to an NPC for money, it is coin injection. However, atm most people dont do this yet, but this concept was unheard of not long ago. Its similar to mirages, the difference in profit for trying to cat shop them is becoming so minimal compared to the effort of catshop them, that people are starting to just directly NPC them.

tweakz

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Its similar to mirages, the difference in profit for trying to cat shop them is becoming so minimal compared to the effort of catshop them, that people are starting to just directly NPC them.

That's it! I'm not going to NPC any more mirages no matter what! They pile up on me like crazy but sell extremely fast next to the elder for a 10% gain. I can now feel like I'm not just gaining 10% but contributing to this non existent inflation! b:laugh

PWI economy is not RL economy. The same rules DO NOT APPLY!

Paramedic - Dreamweaver

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What he's saying is there is soo much saturation on regular tokens, that people are starting to NPC them for 10k each. NPCing them IS new coins. Its not a direct NPC, you use tokens & turn it into a wine, which NPCs for 10k per token value. Since it is being sold to an NPC for money, it is coin injection. However, atm most people dont do this yet, but this concept was unheard of not long ago. Its similar to mirages, the difference in profit for trying to cat shop them is becoming so minimal compared to the effort of catshop them, that people are starting to just directly NPC them.

and since pack are perm. more and more ppl will npc tokens now, cuz catshop price dumped to 10k already


if all people would decide to npc tokens it would generate almost 3x more coins than hated ToBL

every 100 packs it would be like (im not sure those numbers)

98 x 15 x 10k = 14.7m vs 5m from ToBL


or even more.. chance to get ToBL is like 0.75% now?


gj on fighting with inflation pwe b:victory

Xarathox - Dreamweaver

Paramedic - Dreamweaver wrote: »

and since pack are perm. more and more ppl will npc tokens now, cuz catshop price dumped to 10k already


if all people would decide to npc tokens it would generate almost 3x more coins than hated ToBL

every 100 packs it would be like (im not sure those numbers)

98 x 15 x 10k = 14.7m vs 5m from ToBL


or even more.. chance to get ToBL is like 0.75% now?


gg on fighting with inflation pwe b:victory

Woo, I has an exploit! b:chuckle

_kaela_ - Raging Tide

Mkay, a little bored since I'm not playing anything atm, so I'll feed the trollb:chuckle

Didn't someone already point out that people lose on packs? They're better off trading gold for coin! The value of the token of best luck is piddly ****! 1/2 hours work and you could earn more than 2 worth during Nien event!

Tell that to ppl that like to gamble/compete with the rich. And for one tokens of best luck aren't all you can win from the packs. The reason vendors can sell packs for ridiculous prices and still profit is because all foolish consumers see is the CHANCE to get something of much higher value than mere tokens. No one cares about the odds of those chances, ppl rarely know/do the math.

PWI controls prices through various methods like the implementation of the Mysterious Merchant and freebies like the school teacher ring. Cost of playing has gone down and rate of gain has gone up for non cash shoppers because of all the handouts. They also make steps to ensure that no one is getting rich off of exploiting their sales. Anyone playing 2 years ago can easily see how much easier it is to level up a player and save coin now.

I'm a merchant. I sell wine, three-star gear, and molds. The economy from my standpoint is screwed, and i say this even though I sell moderately well. The gold has NOT gone down, not on my server Raging Tide, so your "point" is bull.

I don't grind (anymore) because LIFE gets in the way, but lucky for you, you don't have to worry about that since you obviously don't have one.

Let me ask you, honestly, wtf does a free attendance ring and some mysterious chips from the cube have to do with getting a full set of armor? Or paying for TW? Or upgrading skills? Please elaborate on how things work in that pre-pubescent head of yours.

Cube costs, whether you wanna believe it or not, not only in tickets and mirages, but it can tick a charm like crazy if you aren't careful. And not everyone can/wants to play a pet cleric to an ugly OP monster like you btw (which you can't survive without), so don't give me that "It's easy for me" garbage.

The price of things has gone up because the rich are getting richer in too short an amount of time and are monopolizing the market, the well-off casual cash shopper is jealous/competitive and tries to keep up, meanwhile the poor are left twiddling their thumbs.

Funny, I thought it was from BH runs. If mold prices are going down, cost of playing is going down, so why is there a problem?

This is why children need adults, to help them.....if they can be helped.

When I said that, I meant it from a vendor/reseller point of view. The resale value of a pre-made mold is low, which is a blow to ppl that want to resell it later on but can't because, CLASS?, THE MARKET IS SATURATED WITH THE MOLD ALREADY. That means more grinding/cash shopping to get what you want/need, and less in your hands.

Since molds (unmade/premade) are selling for cheap because of saturation, you won't get your money back if you socket/shard it because it actually costs more to do that than buy the mold itself. Then some have to worry about other fees, like paying someone to make it if they can't themselves, buying mats if the person has no time to farm (back to ppl having lives and not being able to farm), and let's not even get into repairs. Poor melee people, they get repairs bills in the upward thousands per hour of grinding. Like I said, other classes have to get their hands dirty, they can't hide behind an ugly pet and heal it for an eternity, grinding is costly for them.

And for a mold that, yes, you may have spent 250k to buy, it took another 1.5 mill to refine, socket and shard it. Fail

Greed is what these QQ'ers are about. They want something for nothing

Incorrect, they want to be able to keep up-to-date gear, etc for pve AT LEAST, which is becoming a headache. PVP/TW people have to compete with the rich and there was a time when they could do that. Now, not so much. The complaints are from unhappy players and customers, people who do and don't cash shop alike, so please, gtfo of here with that.

You have so many ways to earn coin in this game, but prefer to pan handle PWI.

Please invest in a dictionary in the immediate future, no one is "panhandling" this company, ppl are just fed up with the devs BREAKING an formerly unbroken game.

I grind a lot of my coin, and I don't complain about DQ prices going down. People that do are the same lazy asses that don't pick up coin (which amounts to more most often).

Talk to me about grinding for coin when you're not hiding behind a hideous cash shop pet that doesn't need repairs or rest breaks. Talk to me about grinding when you have repairs in the 10k+ range ( I have a sin and BM). Talk to me about grinding when it's YOU that has to handle aggro from 5 mofos, not some pet. Otherwise shut the f-- up. You have all the time in the world to pick up everything you see, your pet is the one risking its life, not you, so again, shut the f-- up .

Oh, and these are all old arguments. What is this, 14 pages of recycling failed points?

Sorry pre-adolescent troll, you would know that from your daily trolling rounds but I don't bcs I don't frequent these forums to know that. I'm only here because I'm bored and giving this game one more chance to change before I bail. But you, lol, I find entertaining, keep it up. b:laughb:pleased

Tojop - Dreamweaver

kaela, you're post is way more trollerific than the one you were quoting. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken b:bye

That being said, I want to know what you mean when you say the economy is "screwed." Do you mean you can't buy what you used to with the same amount of coin? I doubt it, you're on Raging Tide. Do you mean you're unable to profit as a merchant, via buying and selling at a profit? I don't think so, you surrendered this point yourself.

Or do you mean that the sellers are no longer willing to sell, or the buyers no longer willing to buy (the true hallmark of a broken economy)? I dispute this last point as well. The prices of items, both relative and absolute, have changed dramatically in these past 12 months; however, the in-game economy has not suffered one single dry spell of activity. I know this, because I have been making awesome profits since the original Jolly Jones event on Dreamweaver (my first mercantile endeavor).

I can't even think of a hilarious/intelligent way to end this post, but I'll /flameoff as best I can. You're not stupid, just mistaken. Just try harder, you'll be rewarded 2xb:victory

_kaela_ - Raging Tide

kaela, you're post is way more trollerific than the one you were quoting. Feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken

You're mistaken, I'm speaking the language only trolls understand. Kindness doesn't work on types like tweakz.b:laugh


Everything else I already addressed and I really don't feel like repeating myself, but it seems like I have to so w/e.

You are on an older server, my server is the oracle noob server, there are alot of rich kids here, alot of idiots that can't play their class. Different server= different social climates. Although, since the nerfs/changes are done on all servers, the impact is similar on each (I think, I could be wrongb:pleased).

My sales are OKAY, far from outstanding, but there have been long dry periods inbetween, and mind you I had to switch the type of wine I sell because it seemed like EVERYONE was trying to sell bh69 wine and no one was buying, so the value/price of it plummeted horribly.

The market slows down occasionally, then speeds back up, it fluctuates. Transactions are still taking place, but I still hear ppl complaining about how getting end game gear or anything close to it has become hard for them. The low DQ drop rate/value hurts grinders that wanna buy mats that way, and unless you're a tank/cleric, have a herc or have a generous faction that does TT daily, farming TT as a DD (which most people play from my observation) won't get you much either.

DQ nerfs, and now the new TW nerfs which won't go away any time soon, dungeon drop nerfs, just the whole system being nerfed in some way, is forcing ppl to cash shop just to get what they -for some- need to do the higher instances and what they want to enjoy the game. Is it worth it? That depends on the individual.