5.0 APS Sin Or BM In Party... Which Do You Prefer, And Why?

13

Comments

  • Rawrgh - Raging Tide
    Rawrgh - Raging Tide Posts: 6,790 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Most likely stealth.
    That's what I thought, but at endgame, what do you really tank that isn't a ? boss.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "My understanding of women only goes as far as the pleasure. When it comes to the pain, I'm like any other bloke - I don't want to know."
  • Oneji - Heavens Tear
    Oneji - Heavens Tear Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Riney - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Have you never played a bm in your life? LOL 500+ more.

    I get 300s with 2.5 APS and gorenox vanity. Id love to see a sin getting 800s without +12, and considering we're talking about alike gear, the bm would probably get around the same as well.

    BM > Sin. And not because I am a bm, or I can beat just about every sin around me just cause I have a 15 second anti stun, but because sins are not tanks, and bms can be/are. (And when you talk about 5 attacks per second, you're talking about tanking.)

    It is post like these that make me wonder if people can read...I am only talking about the Sins survivability. I never said he is better than a BM at tanking. It just means sins will have some survivability because of blood paint.
  • SecretGem - Heavens Tear
    SecretGem - Heavens Tear Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Oh? Hardly. I guess you're not very experienced in TW.

    I build chi faster. When it's time to defend the base, I can triple on a turtled barb and eat past a charm and through a cleric's heals.

    On forward pushes, Red Sprint > Roar one group of people.... run to next > Bolt = more people unable to move = easy targets for DD team. Switch to axes > fissure > call targets > dragons > run to heavy, binding tower, etc... build chi if pk pots are on cooldown.

    After I die, I can support our air DD/EP hunting team as I fly back to the front line, kill an ep, debuff veno or archer before I drop down and continue to push my stun team forward.

    Sure, if I could afford to restat to full vit before war and restat for fists after I would, but I know how to use my axes and fists well, and I can easily work them into my stun team duties.

    Then again I am 3.33/5.0 and have +11 claws. They're very useful in TW. More useful than my axes, which are only used for Dragons.

    Idk who told u that about fists being better for a BM in TW but they lied to you. Trust me any BM that has TW experience will tell you axes are needed for TW.

    BM Main job in TW is to stun and AoE. Yeah you can break out the fists on a cata sure np. But most of the time your going to be stunning and AoEing. Hitting mulitple targets>Hitting one target.

    And if ur concered about chi, thats' what marrows are for.

    In regards to sin vs BM 5att/sec dont really matter whoever cash shop more wins
  • Mournbringer - Sanctuary
    Mournbringer - Sanctuary Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    My preference? Both b:pleased A good BM and Sin team can do a hell of a lot of dmg, and with BP the BM can tank with little to no problems b:victory
  • SashaGray - Heavens Tear
    SashaGray - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,765 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    SecretGem - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Idk who told u that about fists being better for a BM in TW but they lied to you. Trust me any BM that has TW experience will tell you axes are needed for TW.

    BM Main job in TW is to stun and AoE. thats what he says he does. bolt/dragonsYeah you can break out the fists on a cata sure np. But most of the time your going to be stunning and AoEing. Hitting mulitple targets>Hitting one target. captain obvious is being obvious

    And if ur concered about chi, thats' what marrows are for. you cant possibly be serious

    In regards to sin vs BM 5att/sec dont really matter whoever cash shop more wins

    I dont play on lost city, but im guessing mike knows what he's doing, TW or otherwise.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Kitamura - Lost City
    Kitamura - Lost City Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    MageyVail - Harshlands wrote: »
    /on topic,.
    my 98 sin got banned from forums (boohoo) so i gotta post on this...
    id rather have a bm with 5.0
    sins are useless in tw.
    bm's arent useless in tw.
    ta da
    Bad sins are useless as bad BMs, I guess we still need some more time to sins get they gear tuned up and a little more experience controlling they char. BMs are out there for years and sins for months, just let them get mature ...
    truekossy wrote: »
    For those who were wondering about damage (and survivability) difference from just the base stats,

    Endgame 5.0 HA sin:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=9d1d27c6f5cbfd5d

    Endgame 5.0 LA sin:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=f7b5814585d1d959

    Endgame 5.0 BM:
    http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=644d3241b37c05a6


    Now yes, I left points unused in the BM's calc. Why? Because some BMs choose to go ahead and go for pure damage even once they have 4.0 and can wield same-level axes while others will dump it into vit. Additionally, the calcs only feature level 10 buffs/mastery and are unsparked since tides don't have level 11 masteries and their sparks don't work correctly yet there.
    Some people like you shouldn't be allowed to use PWcalc, you only show a total lack of knowledge of the gear you using on those builds and no idea of what those chars need to survive.

    my sin have unbuffed:
    6700HP
    4100 PhyDef
    4000 MagDef

    With Barb buffs and Cleric buffs (no BM buff) I can tank:
    All Nirvana bosses
    All HH Bosses including Belial(2-3), Emperor(3-3) or even Illusion Lord (3-3) with only my **** vit Cleric with HH99Pataka+5.
    PQ3 Final boss without BB, just heals
    Never tried a World Boss since poor ppl is always after them and I never found 1 alive.


    SecretGem - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Idk who told u that about fists being better for a BM in TW but they lied to you. Trust me any BM that has TW experience will tell you axes are needed for TW.

    BM Main job in TW is to stun and AoE. Yeah you can break out the fists on a cata sure np. But most of the time your going to be stunning and AoEing. Hitting mulitple targets>Hitting one target.

    And if ur concered about chi, thats' what marrows are for.

    In regards to sin vs BM 5att/sec dont really matter whoever cash shop more wins

    In TW I'm the poor Cleric assigned to heal Michael_dark ****, and I can tell you that is rare to see any BM in any of the sides of the battle using only Axes, is long gone the time where BMs run + stun + run back, now they run + stun + kill with fists, doing AOE with axes is stupid nowadays, since they wont even tick the charms of 90% of ppl in TW that have 10k++ HP, hard to find robes with 2~4k HP where the Axe AOEs would be effective.
    [SIGPIC]100% F2P Assassin[/SIGPIC]
    Overclocked 100% F2P Assassin (1st lvl105 @ 22Nov2010)
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    SecretGem - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    And if ur concered about chi, thats' what marrows are for.

    Firstly, Michael knows damn well what he's talking about but this one just made me laugh.

    "Whoops, I accidentally activated the wrong marrow in an attempt to gain chi and just got 1-sho! Guess my attempt to get chi via marrows wasn't a very smart idea!"
    Kitamura - Lost City wrote: »
    Some people like you shouldn't be allowed to use PWcalc, you only show a total lack of knowledge of the gear you using on those builds and no idea of what those chars need to survive.

    my sin have unbuffed:
    6700HP
    4100 PhyDef
    4000 MagDef

    With Barb buffs and Cleric buffs (no BM buff) I can tank:
    All Nirvana bosses
    All HH Bosses including Belial(2-3), Emperor(3-3) or even Illusion Lord (3-3) with only my **** vit Cleric with HH99Pataka+5.
    PQ3 Final boss without BB, just heals
    Never tried a World Boss since poor ppl is always after them and I never found 1 alive.

    Actually, I know damn well what can and can't be used to survive and I wound up picking those calcs up from prior threads for the sole purpose of comparison. The point of the links I posted wasn't to show what an average player can do since it was directed to those who had been talking about the differences between endgame damage and survivability. Had you actually bothered to read my post and the rest of this thread, you would have known that.


    Next time you choose to make a condescending attack, at least make sure you actually know what you're talking about before you choose a target.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    SecretGem - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Idk who told u that about fists being better for a BM in TW but they lied to you. Trust me any BM that has TW experience will tell you axes are needed for TW.

    BM Main job in TW is to stun and AoE. Yeah you can break out the fists on a cata sure np. But most of the time your going to be stunning and AoEing. Hitting mulitple targets>Hitting one target.

    And if ur concered about chi, thats' what marrows are for.

    lol, yeah I should axe groups of people to death? The only AoE a BM has to have any concern about using with axes are Dragons. Bolt, a fist only skill is an absolutely amazing skill for TW. Of course, you're not a BM so you wouldn't know about that.

    BTW, I've been attacking/defending the 2nd strongest faction on the server, every weekend, usually twice, for what... the last 9 months?

    You expect a BM to Highland Cleave people to death?

    I think too many people still read Lyndura's BM guide as gospel. b:chuckle
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Wolfyyy - Raging Tide
    Wolfyyy - Raging Tide Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Then you guys haven't done runs with the sins from RT server.

    Not cool to underestimate the power of Demon Rib Strike, Demon Focused Mind, Blood Paint and a trusty little Magic Genie with Earthquake skill.

    You got the boss's attack speed greatly reduced there, and at the same time, interrupt magic attacks with earthquake. Furthur evasion coming from natural dex base, as well as demon focused mind, which is pretty much almost spammable after 30 seconds interval.

    Any 5 aps sin will not have low HP, considering the fact that you have to go Nirvana pants, Rank 8 chest, Love Up and Down etc. A sin with 5 aps but doesn't have good shards/refine will be a joke.

    They will have enough HP and defense to tank bosses. BMs definately can tank, but their fists have a much lower base damage compared to daggers, which make sins a better DD overall.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Wolfyyy - Raging Tide wrote: »
    They will have enough HP and defense to tank bosses. BMs definately can tank, but their fists have a much lower base damage compared to daggers, which make sins a better DD overall.

    Haven't seen too many sins that can tank boot boss, or world bosses yet. There's like 1 on our server who probably can, he's got +12 Nirvana daggers and pretty amazing gear though. Not your typical sin though, not even just above average either.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Man - Raging Tide
    Man - Raging Tide Posts: 1,410 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    as main tank you want bm

    in a party with other high DD people you want bloodpaint. I love running with a sage sin for 3% bloodpaint, cleric can go afk/die/not come on 3-3 runs.

    However a sin is not going to have demon heavens flame. After a good demons heaven flame boss hp drops like a rock.

    So while i love bloodpaint i'll take a bm for versatility and to tank in case things go wrong. Also for parts you need to AOE.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HeavensWing - Sanctuary
    HeavensWing - Sanctuary Posts: 192 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Russiee - Raging Tide wrote: »
    As for Shadow Escape. "I am sin, I Shadow Escape on a boss, Boss attacks cleric and squad wipes. Lolol im pro fish".

    Made me LOL irl
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Original Join date: Nov 24, 2008
    Originally Posted by Russiee - Raging Tide

    As for Shadow Escape. "I am sin, I Shadow Escape on a boss, Boss attacks cleric and squad wipes. Lolol im pro fish".


    ^ So pro b:victory ^
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Sins are next to useless except for bloodpaint in Nirvana now (with the exception of those with very nice highly refined gear). They just die too damned often.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • TigerLily - Lost City
    TigerLily - Lost City Posts: 1,209 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    In most cases i pick a BM. Sins might have higher dps but tends to go splat pretty easy and than i have to tank and than i go splat to <.<

    Doesnt matter that Blood pain gives you loads of hp, if boss still can 1-2 shoot you if party get stunned/sealed or something. For like Nirvana/Frost doesn't matter of curse since most bosses are nubs and only hit 1-2k.

    But some bosses in 3-3 or Warsong i feel more safe with a BM tanking unless its a sin with like super refined gear ;(
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    both

    10char
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • HexOmega - Dreamweaver
    HexOmega - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,342 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    bowbarians, attack-clerics, la-vit-psychs
    i like potato
  • Kitamura - Lost City
    Kitamura - Lost City Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Wolfyyy - Raging Tide wrote: »
    Then you guys haven't done runs with the sins from RT server.

    Not cool to underestimate the power of Demon Rib Strike, Demon Focused Mind, Blood Paint and a trusty little Magic Genie with Earthquake skill.

    You got the boss's attack speed greatly reduced there, and at the same time, interrupt magic attacks with earthquake. Furthur evasion coming from natural dex base, as well as demon focused mind, which is pretty much almost spammable after 30 seconds interval.

    Any 5 aps sin will not have low HP, considering the fact that you have to go Nirvana pants, Rank 8 chest, Love Up and Down etc. A sin with 5 aps but doesn't have good shards/refine will be a joke.

    They will have enough HP and defense to tank bosses. BMs definately can tank, but their fists have a much lower base damage compared to daggers, which make sins a better DD overall.

    I have low HP :(
    I don't have rank8 top, and I don't think any sin in Lost city have it yet :(
    I have Nirvana pants and Up&Down :D
    I have average refines :/
    I don't have any HP shard in my gear (besides few Flawless in rank6 top) b:laugh
    I don't have a Lunar Glade cape, thats for poor ppl ^^

    and I can tank pretty much every boss I faced so far, so don't call me a joke :P
    [SIGPIC]100% F2P Assassin[/SIGPIC]
    Overclocked 100% F2P Assassin (1st lvl105 @ 22Nov2010)
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Kitamura - Lost City wrote: »
    I have low HP :(
    I don't have rank8 top, and I don't think any sin in Lost city have it yet :(
    I have Nirvana pants and Up&Down :D
    I have average refines :/
    I don't have any HP shard in my gear (besides few Flawless in rank6 top) b:laugh
    I don't have a Lunar Glade cape, thats for poor ppl ^^

    and I can tank pretty much every boss I faced so far, so don't call me a joke :P

    Post your build in PWcalc. I wanna see it. b:chuckle
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Michael_Dark - Lost City
    Michael_Dark - Lost City Posts: 9,091 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Kitamura - Lost City wrote: »
    I have low HP :(
    I don't have rank8 top, and I don't think any sin in Lost city have it yet :(
    I have Nirvana pants and Up&Down :D
    I have average refines :/
    I don't have any HP shard in my gear (besides few Flawless in rank6 top) b:laugh
    I don't have a Lunar Glade cape, thats for poor ppl ^^

    and I can tank pretty much every boss I faced so far, so don't call me a joke :P

    +12 Nirvana daggers and G13 interval cape? b:chuckleb:bye

    Is there a better geared sin on LC? Maybe Identical... but that would be about it. I'm pretty sure you completely out-DD him though.
    I post in forums. This one and others. That's why I post.
  • Kitamura - Lost City
    Kitamura - Lost City Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Post your build in PWcalc. I wanna see it. b:chuckle

    come find me in Lost City and see by yourself :P
    [SIGPIC]100% F2P Assassin[/SIGPIC]
    Overclocked 100% F2P Assassin (1st lvl105 @ 22Nov2010)
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Kitamura - Lost City wrote: »
    come find me in Lost City and see by yourself :P

    I've been trying but so far I haven't seen you.
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Kitamura - Lost City
    Kitamura - Lost City Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I've been trying but so far I haven't seen you.

    come now and PM me, I will meet you :P
    [SIGPIC]100% F2P Assassin[/SIGPIC]
    Overclocked 100% F2P Assassin (1st lvl105 @ 22Nov2010)
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Kitamura - Lost City wrote: »
    come now and PM me, I will meet you :P

    Okay. b:chuckle
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • Veritas_ - Raging Tide
    Veritas_ - Raging Tide Posts: 110 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    funny thread about squishy sins
    and damn u kita u are 103 qq
    i am too lazy to lvl
    lvl for me lol
  • Boogiepanda - Raging Tide
    Boogiepanda - Raging Tide Posts: 4,682 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    5 APS sin for sure.....only because I then lol at them when they die b:chuckle
  • DrDrakken - Lost City
    DrDrakken - Lost City Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Okay. b:chuckle

    Don't forget to check her daggers.
    For the final shock, read her sigb:chuckle
    Kitamura is my sin's idolb:dirty
    Edit: Oh yea gratz on 103. now go hit the next lvl and make lc proud b:avoid
    [SIGPIC]T.T[/SIGPIC]
    (best i could do T_T)
    b:cryYou were the best CM everb:cry

    August 12 - I'm officially 15 b:pleased
  • Kupuntu - Sanctuary
    Kupuntu - Sanctuary Posts: 3,008 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    DrDrakken - Lost City wrote: »
    Don't forget to check her daggers.
    For the final shock, read her sigb:chuckle
    Kitamura is my sin's idolb:dirty

    Her equips are scary...
    100% F2P player. Started PW: March 2007, Quit PW: March 2011.
    pwcalc.com/e7016929e7b204ae "Pure axe" 8k HP multipath BM, last one of my kind.
  • kenlee
    kenlee Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    Oh? Hardly. I guess you're not very experienced in TW.

    I build chi faster. When it's time to defend the base, I can triple on a turtled barb and eat past a charm and through a cleric's heals.

    On forward pushes, Red Sprint > Roar one group of people.... run to next > Bolt = more people unable to move = easy targets for DD team. Switch to axes > fissure > call targets > dragons > run to heavy, binding tower, etc... build chi if pk pots are on cooldown.

    After I die, I can support our air DD/EP hunting team as I fly back to the front line, kill an ep, debuff veno or archer before I drop down and continue to push my stun team forward.

    Sure, if I could afford to restat to full vit before war and restat for fists after I would, but I know how to use my axes and fists well, and I can easily work them into my stun team duties.

    Then again I am 3.33/5.0 and have +11 claws. They're very useful in TW. More useful than my axes, which are only used for Dragons.
    i totally disagree and i dont like posting my enemies videos but this is the way to play a bm in tw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66e2eDdAMSE&fmt=22
    tbh i think its the best bm ive ever seen in a tw so far and ive been on LC too

    id like to see how you/him do that on a 40k hp barb btw
  • Regenbogen - Lost City
    Regenbogen - Lost City Posts: 1,559 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    ultimate squad for bosskill:

    5aps bm - pdef buff, dragon
    5aps sin - bloodpaint, atkspeed debuff
    5aps archer - evasion/speedbuff
    5aps barb - hp/patk buff,
    4aps heavy fist/claw veno - bramble, amp,purge,debuffs
    cleric - buffbitch (or heavy armor fist/claw cleric Just4TheLulz)
    i am waiting for you my little flagcarriers b:kiss
  • SecretGem - Heavens Tear
    SecretGem - Heavens Tear Posts: 13 Arc User
    edited August 2010
    Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »
    lol, yeah I should axe groups of people to death? The only AoE a BM has to have any concern about using with axes are Dragons. Bolt, a fist only skill is an absolutely amazing skill for TW. Of course, you're not a BM so you wouldn't know about that.

    BTW, I've been attacking/defending the 2nd strongest faction on the server, every weekend, usually twice, for what... the last 9 months?

    You expect a BM to Highland Cleave people to death?

    I think too many people still read Lyndura's BM guide as gospel. b:chuckle


    el o el..... your not supposed to kill ppl in TW ur a BM...... all your good for is stun and aoe pressure. Archers wizards and venos main classes that kill in TW(sins and psy's too)

    lol and this an alt i play 9x BM on other server and have over 100+ war TW experience.

    and your friends talk about marrows like their bad? Always always always in TW BM should have mag marrow up constantaly alternating between taht and phys marrow to build up chi. Not fisting random opponents. putting it simply as a BM you assit other people in killing. yes you can use other weapons in TW but your main role is to aoe, not to run and kill every person you see. A BM is a one shot to a well geared wizard archer etc. no matter how good you are a ranged class will own you.

    In TW BM's have to use anti stun pot->roar->drop dragons if they have->fissure->highland cleave-> and holy path back and allow the other BM to run up and stun. That's how it should work.

    As much as it does suck, BM's are average and only purpose is aoe, not fisting 5att/sec. well maybe for just pve. but not for TW.
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