Fists & Claws break PWI ?

Beatrixxx - Lost City · May 2010

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wtf is a "phly" or a "plys'?

its a fsy ofc

Hypnos - Raging Tide · May 2010

I hate y'all b:cry

Yulk - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Beatrixxx - Lost City wrote: »

edit: hi yulk... and btw to all u ppl showing char calcs showing ppl with oht gear with 3x -interval.... thats just not possible... 1st of all because the chances of that are comically low oht fists with 3x -interval has a 0.000000000143% chance of being crafted(then possibly only 0 soc) secondly because pwi just recently changed -int to unique addon meaning u can only get 1 x -interval on randomstat gear and that will make it impossible to get zerk or other cool stuff on it so all in all the only gear with more then 1 -interval are hh99 gold bracers that gets the set bonus

Heya b:bye and yes, your right, very low chance to get intervals b:chuckle. BTW, venos are more capable than a cash shop pet though. AMPs and debuffs and purge b:shocked

blindeyesniper · May 2010

You guys are comparing skills with cool-downs to auto-attacking and perm 3 sparking. Very very fair comparison.

And Beatrixxx, someone showed a character with 3x -channeling on an OHT wrist, not -interval.

Asperitas - Lost City · May 2010

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

wtf is a "phly" or a "plys'?

P.S. For all you bms that keep saying 5 aps is balance in PvP, read the thread and you'll realize we're talking PvE. So far, no bms have come up with a good excuse how it's balanced in PvE.

Read the thread and you'll realize more than one person has said not only is 5 aps OP in PVE, but also in PVP.

We are replying in accordance to those people.

As for PVE, not once have I said it's not broken. I think it is. I don't think there's a way to argue it isn't. But that's just my opinion.

Daizengar - Sanctuary · May 2010

PoisonLove - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Any endgame fist BM that gets randomly oneshot is an idiot.
Any BM that has trouble getting close to his target is an idiot.

I agree that getting oneshot is reserved only for idiots who do things like using Ashura ornaments for the -interval, but sometimes people like to kite. Some people are VERY good at kiting. That is, provided that person isn't an idiot.

PoisonLove - Dreamweaver wrote: »

To think in PvP permasparked char with stunlock ability is fair, you need to be an idiot or to play that kind of char (then I understand the bias/horse goggles).

Really? What kind of idiot would sit there and let a BM stunlock and permaspark on them?

PoisonLove - Dreamweaver wrote: »

PvP is what matters endgame, but unless you slide your VISA/Mastercard every couple of days for PWI, you need some coins and drops to finance your ingame activities and upgrade your gear and weapons.
I don't see how is it fair to have one char solo an instance in half the time needed for a full squad of other chars to do it.

That's exactly my point. How often do you see non cashopping players solo high level instances?

PoisonLove - Dreamweaver wrote: »

The amount of people this topic lured to come out of the closet on having no idea about this game mechanics is frightening.

Yeah, I agree. People should really think more before they reply.

blindeyesniper · May 2010

Daizengar - Sanctuary wrote: »

Really? What kind of idiot would sit there and let a BM stunlock and permaspark on them?

What about a barb? It only has 1 range skill so it has to get up close. You can use anti-stun apo + genie skills but there's cool-down to using them.

Asperitas - Lost City · May 2010

If it were me I'd go tiger and kite till the spark runs out (or invoke, stun etc etc) then resume beating on each other. Regardless, it takes a true idiot to stand there and be permasparked on.

ElderSig - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

As for PVE, not once have I said it's not broken. I think it is. I don't think there's a way to argue it isn't. But that's just my opinion.

At least we are in agreement on this. b:thanks

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · May 2010

Daizengar - Sanctuary wrote: »

2. It's stupid for other classes to complain at the idea of fists becoming BM only when they were not supposed to use them in the first place. You got your own weapons, use those.

They have always been all-class weapons (just like bows) and people have invested alot in acquiring them. If someone spends hundreds of millions of coin on a TT100 fist (which is bound) and it suddenly becomes unusable for them I don't think it would "stupid" for them to complain lol.

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

@Telarith:

trying to establish firm lines between classes is unrealistic because a lot of these classes are simply DDs as far as PvE is concerned, their roles are not any different.

Brigid - Harshlands · May 2010

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Have you ever actually done any of the things you're claiming we can do? Most of the time it seems like just random theories with little basis in the reality of time loss due to weapon swaps, switching between skill use that has specific weapon set requirements to be useable, which also sets back time, loss of aftercast, and other things that really makes most of these combos unworkable. At the very least, it doesn't end up with the results you like to point out.

Personally, I have not. I don't have a BM. However, someone who has performed fist ulti glitching stated that it takes less than half a second, and provided before-and-after screenshots as well. I assumed that with sufficiently fast reflexes my complicated combo is doable, and I accounted for the timing when I first did the theorycrafting.

The thing is though, the difference between the weapon-swap-glitch-ulti combo, 3spark-autoattacking with Demon HF every other cycle, and 3spark-autoattacking isn't all that dramatic. I think on the order of 5-10% difference in overall DPS.

Note that I never tried to use that complicated combos to prove any sort of point about balance or whatever. I was just saying that in theory, it outdamages 3spark-auto-repeat. I doubt anybody is ever going to try to use it for more than bragging rights, since it requires perfect reflexes and there's no real room for error. A mistake massively lowers your DPS, whereas success only slightly increases it.

In summary, whether or not the excessively complicated combo is feasible really doesn't have much to do with anything, I just like theorycrafting. 5aps fist users and dagger users already massively out-DPS everything else. Debating over whether or not it's possible to tweak it even higher is like debating about a 200-megaton nuke versus a 190-megaton nuke, when the real problem is that anyone has nukes at all.

Daizengar - Sanctuary · May 2010

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

They have always been all-class weapons (just like bows) and people have invested alot in acquiring them. If someone spends hundreds of millions of coin on a TT100 fist (which is bound) and it suddenly becomes unusable for them I don't think it would "stupid" for them to complain lol.

Then just roll a BM and use account stash... It's easy enough to level up nowadays.

Euphy - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Whatever the management decides for China will happen here. I predict significant outcry if they touch the all-class status of claws.

It is not really in the games benefit to change this. Arguably if they did... they would have to make bows Archer only. Perhaps glaives Wizard only. Patakas Venomancer only. Magic swords Cleric only. Oh yay, bring on the rage. I'd be terribly upset if I couldn't use magic swords anymore because they were made wizard exclusive. I worked incredibly hard towards my Beemhoof Slicer. Others worked as hard towards Decides. Leaving us with amazing weapons rendered useless would likely result in major withdrawal of high-power, high-level, and generally invested (spending) players.

All original weapons except for slingshots and crossbows are open to all classes. Picking and choosing at this point would be unfair and nonsensical. This game uses attribute requirements as the major regulator for the equipment you can use. If my cleric has the same attributes as a fist/claw-blademaster then she should be able to use the same weapons.

Tideborn are the exception to the rule. Okay - we can deal with it. I wouldn't mind a pretty soulsphere over my intimidating sword but I can deal.

[/end thread]

Telarith - Sanctuary · May 2010

Mostly I don't consider a chain that has a 50% chance of auto-crit, that has skills, and maybe gives a second or two left for auto-attack, should you not hang in aftercast after HF, being worth mentioning for the most part. Not when we have DB that let's us have over 50% crit rate anyways for 30 secs.

As for separating, this is due to class buff issues that arise from allowing so many to use fists/claws. Demon Burning Arrow being an obvious one, you can't really balance a skill based off of what someone might do at the expense of what it was intended for. Restricting makes it easier to avoid such issues.

As for archers who finally saw the light and went fists/claws, just reading the forum makes it seem recent on many. The kind of recent that occurred after CN rumors had already emerged. Before that Smobo was being bashed by many as wasting bow damage just to use claws/fists. And seeing as Deicides aren't auto-bind, they'd not be really losing all that money.

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

Demon blazing, or any of kind of blazing arrow for that matter, takes 3s to channel. If you manage to work around that let me know. The obvious issue they tried to address was chi gain, as archers used to get 5 chi per attack and BMs used to get 4. They possibly didn't think archers would go fist and gain chi faster than a fist BM, so then they gave BMs 5 chi per hit.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · May 2010

LOL @ the people who thought I was directly correlating fist BM DPS vs Wizard spike damage in anything more than stating the fact that at end-game, they're both broken classes. The particular Nirvana boss I'm speaking of is the first one, fully amped and debuffed and the wizard I usually run with is certainly nowhere close to being typical. Of course I'm not comparing DPS, assuming that I had is idiotic at best, duh, of course fist/claw BMs have insanely higher DPS than a mage. Way to go reading into a post much deeper than you really should have.. just lol. Anyway, that was so 3 days ago or so and I'll leave it at that.

There's a lot of QQ here... and what seems like a bit of jealousy as well. However, I'm really wondering how many of those complaining have end-game chars that are similar in gear quality and cost and have PvP'd against -int BMs. It you have, you'd know that it's not so much the advantage in PvP that it is in PvE.

Fist/claw BM is not broken in PvP unless they're fighting against non-cash shoppers (or people who merch'd for their gear). If that's the case, then it wouldn't matter what class they're fighting as they would die just as quick as any other cash-shopped class.

One thing I really agree how broken -interval builds are, if I want my last piece of interval gear, it's going to cost me about $500 USD to obtain.

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

well of course there's jealousy, and it's all about PvE. what kind of class deserves to solo a boss in 2min that a full squad can take 10min on? do you know how rich you can get from running CoA with claws as opposed to a bow even with the same -interval gear on? do you know how pissed off people get when an archer with bow and a veno with herc gets KSed by a single permasparking BM?

and when other classes try to do the same, here comes these bms saying "fists shouldn't be all class" like it totally ruins their game play when other classes use fists in PvE, and that is the main topic of this thread isn't it? if these bms like to tell other classes not to be jealous, then they should look the other way when other classes use fists

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

LOL @ the people who thought I was directly correlating fist BM DPS vs Wizard spike damage in anything more than stating the fact that at end-game, they're both broken classes. The particular Nirvana boss I'm speaking of is the first one, fully amped and debuffed and the wizard I usually run with is certainly nowhere close to being typical. Of course I'm not comparing DPS, assuming that I had is idiotic at best, duh, of course fist/claw BMs have insanely higher DPS than a mage. Way to go reading into a post much deeper than you really should have.. just lol. Anyway, that was so 3 days ago or so and I'll leave it at that.

There's a lot of QQ here... and what seems like a bit of jealousy as well. However, I'm really wondering how many of those complaining have end-game chars that are similar in gear quality and cost and have PvP'd against -int BMs. It you have, you'd know that it's not so much the advantage in PvP that it is in PvE.

Fist/claw BM is not broken in PvP unless they're fighting against non-cash shoppers (or people who merch'd for their gear). If that's the case, then it wouldn't matter what class they're fighting as they would die just as quick as any other cash-shopped class.

One thing I really agree how broken -interval builds are, if I want my last piece of interval gear, it's going to cost me about $500 USD to obtain.

If if they arent as broken in PvP directly, they are indirectly. When the -Int fist user goes into PvE such as 3-3 or Nirvana (what? talking about PvE no way!) they end up doing the instances with fewer people and in quicker time. Do you under stand the profit margin they are thereby capable of raking in beyond any other player? This enables them to ultra gear up for PvP far beyond anyone besides rich kids with mommies credit card. Whether you want to recognize it or not, PvE brokenness has a huge impact on PvP.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · May 2010

Daizengar - Sanctuary wrote: »

Then just roll a BM and use account stash... It's easy enough to level up nowadays.

I have no idea anymore what you are trying to say anymore lol.

I guess you dream of a heaven where BMs rule from mountain tops with their exclusive weapons that make all other classes green with envy. For you the Blademaster is the perfect class forged in the beginning from the fires of creation. It is said that in the early in the development of the game God himself programmed the Blademaster in his own image.

I understand how much your eyes must burn with rage in seeing all those other classes sharing in that perfect glory so rightfully yours! Your pain touches my heart and I feel your anguish.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver · May 2010

You guys are really starting to take this way too seriously... it's a game, fists/claws are broken, we get it. Can we move on? :O

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You guys are really starting to take this way too seriously... it's a game, -Interval & its affect on fast weaponry are broken, we get it. Can we move on? :O

fixed it for you.

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide · May 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

Demon blazing, or any of kind of blazing arrow for that matter, takes 3s to channel. If you manage to work around that let me know.

Erm , I assume it should work like DBB thus you don't have to channel the full skill , you just need it to start then cancel it right away (work's best by swapping with another weap) to get the buff , then ofc swap back to fists . Besides that only make's it easier , it's canceling a 3 sec channel skill vs a 0.6 one.

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

I have no idea anymore what you are trying to say anymore lol.

I guess you dream of a heaven where BMs rule from mountain tops with their exclusive weapons that make all other classes green with envy. For you the Blademaster is the perfect class forged in the beginning from the fires of creation. It is said that in the early in the development of the game God himself programmed the Blademaster in his own image.

I understand how much your eyes must burn with rage in seeing all those other classes sharing in that perfect glory so rightfully yours! Your pain touches my heart and I feel your anguish.

But but but Flattypoo , there already is such a class , it's called a Sin

Speaking of TBs .... it would be the current hawt topic on just how overwhelming will they be now with their lvl 11/79/100 skills to help their already OP skill-chains .

Thx to every1 for the interesting comments ( enjoyed reading 'em ) , but like Zanryu said - It's time to move on .

/Thread

Zanryu - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

fixed it for you.

I wasn't wrong in what I said, you know what I meant by "fists/claws". Fists and Claws obviously aren't broken by themselves and need the -interval gear to be broken. Sheesh...

EDIT: In any case I'm done posting on this thread, it's become pointless when the -interval effect (happy?) is broken, later guys.

Brigid - Harshlands · May 2010

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide wrote: »

Erm , I assume it should work like DBB thus you don't have to channel the full skill , you just need it to start then cancel it right away (work's best by swapping with another weap) to get the buff , then ofc swap back to fists . Besides that only make's it easier , it's canceling a 3 sec channel skill vs a 0.6 one.

Doesn't work. Simply cancels the cast entirely without getting any buffs, after spending the full 3 seconds channeling it. And still consumes the MP, by the way.

Blazing Arrow isn't used like the fist ulti glitching is. It's simply a bit of extra damage as a buff. The Demon effect on it really isn't that useful, due to the long channel and limited duration.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · May 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

well of course there's jealousy, and it's all about PvE. what kind of class deserves to solo a boss in 2min that a full squad can take 10min on? do you know how rich you can get from running CoA with claws as opposed to a bow even with the same -interval gear on? do you know how pissed off people get when an archer with bow and a veno with herc gets KSed by a single permasparking BM?

and when other classes try to do the same, here comes these bms saying "fists shouldn't be all class" like it totally ruins their game play when other classes use fists in PvE, and that is the main topic of this thread isn't it? if these bms like to tell other classes not to be jealous, then they should look the other way when other classes use fists

Archers, barbs and sins could definitely do the same and do. I'm a claw BM and I don't believe there should be restrictions. Hell, I plan on getting a Heaven Shatterer sometime in the upcoming future.

As for other classes using interval and fists/claws, go for it. It's not a cheap build and both barbs and archers can pull it off with great success. I don't mind. Limiting fists/claws to BM only would be breaking it even further, IMO.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If if they arent as broken in PvP directly, they are indirectly. When the -Int fist user goes into PvE such as 3-3 or Nirvana (what? talking about PvE no way!) they end up doing the instances with fewer people and in quicker time. Do you under stand the profit margin they are thereby capable of raking in beyond any other player? This enables them to ultra gear up for PvP far beyond anyone besides rich kids with mommies credit card. Whether you want to recognize it or not, PvE brokenness has a huge impact on PvP.

The thing is, a fist user already *has* spent a ton of coin or RL$ to become a viable -int user. You can say the same thing about Rank 8, Nirvana Bow, fist/claw Archers. This argument isn't a whole lot different than complaining about venos who can solo the low and mid TT runs by themselves. Any two pieces cheaper pieces of end-game -int gear would cost as much as a herc, the rest are quite a bit more expensive. If you pour that kind of money into an archer, you can do much of the same things except the archer is far more versatile.

In all honesty, fist archers are far more broken than fist BM because when it comes down to it, they can just switch to their bow and get insane ranged spike damage which BMs can't do anywhere nearly as effectively. I have no complaints about it. More power to them.

Does spending so much money or in-game coin give you the right to be overpowered? Look at just about any class... if you dump $3k-10k on a build, yeah, it's going to pretty much destroy any non-cash shopper, no matter what the class.

Who is tanking Harpy Wraith in this video, a BM? No... an Archer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_LghNlSUcs

Teny - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Interval doesn't break the game, it makes things go by faster.

I really don't see what the big deal is anyway, even without the Anni Pack Sale, BMs were able to get 2.86/s which is considered decent even today.

As for the lunar capes/tomes and now even nirvana pants which add even more - interval, you can make an argument that they're difficult to handle, PvP-wise sure, but you also have to consider the fact that they aren't easily obtained.

If you feel the need to spend your real life money to obtain them then that's good for you and all but this is all obtainable in game by every single player and I don't see what all the crying is about.

I'm someone who farms with a BM that hits 5.0/s on a regular basis, and sure it's nice, but it could be better. If those numbers I read in this thread were available, I might consider calling that overpowered. 6.67/s or even 10.0/s, sure that might be a bit overboard, but the speeds most BMs/Archers/Barbs are obtaining are only to be expected with so many pack sales.

A lot of the complaints I see are about how these interval chars can solo everything and make things like barbs and herc venos useless, it depends on the gear of course. Very few BMs nowadays can have the 5.0 and still retain decent stats, i.e. their ornaments, and if they have then it's due to having nothing but vit stones loaded into their gear, once again this isn't an easy thing to achieve.

Everyone's always been complaining about how there's people richer than them and can spend money on the game, and since the interval thing has become quite the situation, everyone's frustration is just being pointed specifically at this issue in particular.

And if all else fails to convince you, just remember that this is a free to play game and you have no obligation to stay. If you don't like it, you can just leave.

Aubree - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Teny - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Very few BMs nowadays can have the 5.0 and still retain decent stats, i.e. their ornaments, and if they have then it's due to having nothing but vit stones loaded into their gear, once again this isn't an easy thing to achieve.

Totally false about very few bm'sn not being able to retain decent stats. That is only if they are stupid and didn't research their toon. Casting classes will never be able to reach this damage output. That is why it is OP.

Im not convinced by you. I myself duo with a bm and fist archer with atk rates at 5.0. I have benefitted from this failure of balance. Still think they need to do something about it.

MoonUsagi - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Actually fist & claw capability for farm at endgame is making me always wondering . . do other class can reach those 5.0 speed ?

Well i am non cash shopper and realizing my class won't make money at end game is a bit scary. b:shocked

And these always make me feel want to create a archer or bm to farm at endgame.
(because even if other class spent same amount of money fist & claw still do better)

b:surrender

Or other class actually can match that so fast punch >.< ? Because i feel other class limited (especially caster) limited by cast time.

Michael_Dark - Lost City · May 2010

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Casting classes will never be able to reach this damage output. That is why it is OP.

Reduce your spell range to 2m, and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Fists & Claws break PWI ?

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