Fists & Claws break PWI ?

_Krue_ - Heavens Tear

SaiIorMoon - Lost City wrote: »

b:bye

Yep 5k+dmg a second...easily tankable.

You show me who is hitting you while using fists, maintaining 5aps for 5k damage each hit. Then after that, you go uninstall please? b:bye

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

_Krue_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You show me who is hitting you while using fists, maintaining 5aps for 5k damage each hit. Then after that, you go uninstall please? b:bye

5 aps = 5k per second = 1k per hit..... quite feasible.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

ya know how ya stop a fist bm from killing you

step...away

seriously we are a horrificly gimped class for pvp untill 90+ when we first break 2 base aps

and you want to make us WORSE?

*facepalm* yes somone can blow 600 mill o na int set but with that you can +12 a weapons and kill them...just...as...fast

for pve...ya its rediculously good but meh...this IS the class that was an absolute pariah for dam near ever kinda earned it

@ magicpimp: arent you a spear/axe bm?

Quilue - Sanctuary

how do you go about earning perma spark? by choosing a supposedly suck class for 90 levels? is that what you're trying to say? because last time i checked, BM did not suck pre-90 either. BMs used to be the fastest levelers because they could AOE grind. they're still very necessary for RB, frost, etc.

if there's anything that's a pariah in PvE, it would be wizards. so, where does that leave wizards in PvE?

if you want to talk about PvP, ever since genies came out BMs are definitely not underpowered in PvP...genies made using fists effectively so much easier as well.

Escorian - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

how do you go about earning perma spark? by choosing a supposedly suck class for 90 levels? is that what you're trying to say? because last time i checked, BM did not suck pre-90 either. BMs used to be the fastest levelers because they could AOE grind. they're still very necessary for RB, frost, etc.

if there's anything that's a pariah in PvE, it would be wizards. so, where does that leave wizards in PvE?

if you want to talk about PvP, ever since genies came out BMs are definitely not underpowered in PvP...genies made using fists effectively so much easier as well.

-138% channeling http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQWUtAwt_tU


Channeling allows magic classes to channel their skills faster. Ya, i think most of you know that but did you know that once you reach a certain amount of -channeling, you break the channeling barrier and your skills become instant cast!(skills become instant channel around -80%). And guess what? YOU! Yes, you can break the barrier with a bit of OHT crafting and some patience. So your first question is, well how? Ok to break the barrier you need -93%+ channeling. Instead of explaining to you in a very long post, I'm just gonna show you how. Sounds fair?

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=61fba791e0c40bd0


Edit: i borrowed this from a friend but you trying to tell me that bm is broke at 5 attacks a second? and also you might wanna think about this it might be hard to get that kind of - channeling but them again you also have to think about the fact that for bms its not very easy to get 5 a/sec without cashing your **** off

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

-138% channeling http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQWUtAwt_tU


Channeling allows magic classes to channel their skills faster. Ya, i think most of you know that but did you know that once you reach a certain amount of -channeling, you break the channeling barrier and your skills become instant cast!(skills become instant channel around -80%). And guess what? YOU! Yes, you can break the barrier with a bit of OHT crafting and some patience. So your first question is, well how? Ok to break the barrier you need -93%+ channeling. Instead of explaining to you in a very long post, I'm just gonna show you how. Sounds fair?

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=61fba791e0c40bd0


Edit: i borrowed this from a friend

And the odds of that are?..........

Escorian - Dreamweaver

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

And the odds of that are?..........

isnt this what they said about bms getting 5 attacks a second?

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

isnt this what they said about bms getting 5 attacks a second?

New pack item!

.001% chance for magic ring with -20% channeling!

Quilue - Sanctuary

i guess if you spend like 300m in -channel stuff you'd have that. well those wrists are kind of far-fetched...

what if you combined demon spark with say, 60% chan?

Michael_Dark - Lost City

NO!

Soon I'll get a Heaven Shatterer for my BM. b:dirty

ElderSig - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

i guess if you spend like 300m in -channel stuff you'd have that. well those wrists are kind of far-fetched...

what if you combined demon spark with say, 60% chan?

How does demon spark -channeling work?

If you have -20% channeling on your gear already, does demon's 25% -channeling give you -45% channeling?

Or does demon reduce channeling time by 25% after equipment is taken into account?

So -20% = 80%

Then -25% off of 80% channeling giving you -40% channeling in total?

If the second one is true, that would give you (I think) a soft-cap on -channeling due the diminishing returns.

Joshcja - Sanctuary

ElderSig - Dreamweaver wrote: »

How does demon spark -channeling work?

If you have -20% channeling on your gear already, does demon's 25% -channeling give you -45% channeling?

Or does demon reduce channeling time by 25% after equipment is taken into account?

So -20% = 80%

Then -25% off of 80% channeling giving you -40% channeling in total?

If the second one is true, that would give you (I think) a soft-cap on -channeling due the diminishing returns.

still with CE spark pots your natural chi gain and such

thats at a minute and a 1/2 of 0 chan death cost and returns aside...death from above ^.^

Quilue - Sanctuary

unfortunately, savant stones give 3% chan not 6%...nevertheless, a realistic build might be this:

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=b082a4d6023dc091

as for speed given by spark, someone clear that up for us lol

Man - Raging Tide

Tototally agree, a change needs to be made.

Either increase weapon attack by a percentage >>

Or caps attack per second at 3.

Does anyone remember when they increased the chi bms got per hit? What kind of BS was that lol.

Yes a good interval Bm can deal 30x the dmg i can, due to 5 APS vs my one, and perm demon spark vs my 1/5 of the time demon spark if i'm lucky.

even putting something in like a 30 sec demon spark timer would go a long ways.

As for PVP when you have a demon bm that knows how to chain stuns, and has a genie that can be used for occult ice twice with almost a 100% chance of success they are pretty scary pvp.

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Man - Raging Tide wrote: »

Tototally agree, a change needs to be made.

Either increase weapon attack by a percentage >>

Or caps attack per second at 3.

Why don't you spend as much as a 5aps BM would have to spend and get 30k hp instead. Armageddon is completely broken... it's one of the most broken attacks in the game and should be nerfed as well, according to your logic.

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide

Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »

ya know how ya stop a fist bm from killing you

step...away

seriously we are a horrificly gimped class for pvp untill 90+ when we first break 2 base aps

and you want to make us WORSE?

*facepalm* yes somone can blow 600 mill o na int set but with that you can +12 a weapons and kill them...just...as...fast

for pve...ya its rediculously good but meh...this IS the class that was an absolute pariah for dam near ever kinda earned it

@ magicpimp: arent you a spear/axe bm?

I have never though of bms being underpowered while fighting them as a wiz at any lvl , and I sure as hell don't think of them being underpowered while playing one either .


And ofc I'm JUST an axe/spear bm atm . Naturally I'll get fists too but why do that before lvl 89 ( also till I find some fc gold ones to buy... none selling in RT atm b:sad ) .

Telarith - Sanctuary

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide wrote: »

I have never though of bms being underpowered while fighting them as a wiz at any lvl , and I sure as hell don't think of them being underpowered while playing one either .


And ofc I'm JUST an axe/spear bm atm . Naturally I'll get fists too but why do that before lvl 89 ( also till I find some fc gold ones to buy... none selling in RT atm b:sad ) .

Not having fists by level 10? Sacrilege, you dang landscaper. No cool points, no cool points for you.

kenlee

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

-138% channeling http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQWUtAwt_tU


Channeling allows magic classes to channel their skills faster. Ya, i think most of you know that but did you know that once you reach a certain amount of -channeling, you break the channeling barrier and your skills become instant cast!(skills become instant channel around -80%). And guess what? YOU! Yes, you can break the barrier with a bit of OHT crafting and some patience. So your first question is, well how? Ok to break the barrier you need -93%+ channeling. Instead of explaining to you in a very long post, I'm just gonna show you how. Sounds fair?

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=61fba791e0c40bd0


Edit: i borrowed this from a friend but you trying to tell me that bm is broke at 5 attacks a second? and also you might wanna think about this it might be hard to get that kind of - channeling but them again you also have to think about the fact that for bms its not very easy to get 5 a/sec without cashing your **** off

unless you play a private server to get lvl 140-150 gear you wont see that here ever
even half of that -channeling (70%) is hard to get it here

btw that breakpoint is not -80% channeling is somewhere in -9x%

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

unfortunately, savant stones give 3% chan not 6%...nevertheless, a realistic build might be this:

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=b082a4d6023dc091

as for speed given by spark, someone clear that up for us lol

that its just a bug on display about savant stones. on statistics its still -3 so you can use 2

Magiere - Dreamweaver

Escorian - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Channeling allows magic classes to channel their skills faster. Ya, i think most of you know that but did you know that once you reach a certain amount of -channeling, you break the channeling barrier and your skills become instant cast!(skills become instant channel around -80%). And guess what? YOU! Yes, you can break the barrier with a bit of OHT crafting and some patience. So your first question is, well how? Ok to break the barrier you need -93%+ channeling. Instead of explaining to you in a very long post, I'm just gonna show you how. Sounds fair?


Edit: i borrowed this from a friend but you trying to tell me that bm is broke at 5 attacks a second? and also you might wanna think about this it might be hard to get that kind of - channeling but them again you also have to think about the fact that for bms its not very easy to get 5 a/sec without cashing your **** off

Sorry but thats just bullcrap.
Reason #1, there isnt a single -12channel ring or 18 channel wrists on our (DW) server.

Reason #2, simply take Wizards sutra as an example to see how much the difference actually is.You dont have channel but still got cast, which means you still need 1-2 seconds between 1 attack.
Friend wizard with +10 Lunar weapon used 3 sparked sutra
(during those 6 seconds she could fire 4 attacks, dealing between 7-10k dmg) thats like what?
Average of 30k dmg in 6 seconds on a TT boss with 100% channel.
While a max fist BM deals around 3-5k dmg 5 times each second.
During those 6 seconds the BM deals an average of 90 - 150k dmg in the same amount of time.

Come on thats bloody 3-5 times the damage of a max channel user.
30k vs 90-150k, now tell me that claws/interval isn't broken?

Yulk - Heavens Tear

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sorry but thats just bullcrap.
Reason #1, there isnt a single -12channel ring or 18 channel wrists on our (DW) server.

You do realize intervals and channeling is stack-able right? Stone of savant on weapons? Channeling in gears? Go find some more before you QQ about fists

Pepper - Lost City

Blumpkinator - Lost City wrote: »

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=22addb7057ad9285

this is really OP...

This would be cool, but it never can work since mag. skills have channeling/cooldown time. Macros would just stop and iunno about the rest but im not planing on sit and hit buttons one after another. My BM friend have 4 aps and its absolutely gross to watch her fisting bosses in fb99 under 2 min b:surrender

Edit: if people dont know it yet , you CANT make tripple spark macro on mag class like you can do on ea/wr

eww i posted too much for 1 day , be back in 6 months

Michael_Dark - Lost City

Magiere - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sorry but thats just bullcrap.
Reason #1, there isnt a single -12channel ring or 18 channel wrists on our (DW) server.

Reason #2, simply take Wizards sutra as an example to see how much the difference actually is.You dont have channel but still got cast, which means you still need 1-2 seconds between 1 attack.
Friend wizard with +10 Lunar weapon used 3 sparked sutra
(during those 6 seconds she could fire 4 attacks, dealing between 7-10k dmg) thats like what?
Average of 30k dmg in 6 seconds on a TT boss with 100% channel.
While a max fist BM deals around 3-5k dmg 5 times each second.
During those 6 seconds the BM deals an average of 90 - 150k dmg in the same amount of time.

Come on thats bloody 3-5 times the damage of a max channel user.
30k vs 90-150k, now tell me that claws/interval isn't broken?

Sorry, those numbers are pretty much pure BS and are much closer to even than that. If a fist claw BM is getting 3-5k damage per hit on any specific boss, a similarly geared wizard is going to be hitting 20-40k.

Wizard with frenzy sutra ultis can hit fully amped Nirvana bosses for like 200k. Fist claw BM can't even compare to that kind of spike damage ever.

And brining up wizards while trying to say how broken -interval BMs are? That arguement is really fail. Nothing is more broken in the game than 10x wizards with their lvl 11 skills. Well, I have yet to see how fishies cope with their new lvl11 skills, that may make 'BM/Wiz are broken' arguments moot.

A wizard with a +10 NP will steal aggro from a fist/claw BM if they are not permasparking.

Marche - Harshlands

Knullruffs - Raging Tide wrote: »

@Hhlolz, For the lionheart bonuses~

Fists are so OP not the actual BM class, every phys can be OP with all the pack gears + clawas..they shouldnt have made them so fast, not even slings probably has a bit less dmg then claws has that speed..

u do relise that the LA neck and belt give the inter as well but u can still get 5 speed ona BM with out any LA xP just a bit more expensive but u can replace the LA neck and belt with a cube neck and warsong belt like my plan would be hehehee >:D

oh and im to lazy to read all this but if ur talkin channel time now O_o then theirs a cleric on HL with like 60% or sum sheet like that

Solandri - Heavens Tear

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You do realize intervals and channeling is stack-able right? Stone of savant on weapons? Channeling in gears? Go find some more before you QQ about fists

Problem is you can get -16% on the weapon (theoretically you can get more with a nirvana wand, but a realistic figure is -10% with two -3% shards), -6% with rank 8 chest, -3% with nirvana pants, -3% with the warsoul hat, -6% with lunar cape, and -1% with a tome. That's 35%.

The remaining slots where you can get channeling are neck, arms, belt, and two rings. 5 slots. To get to 93% channeling where the instant-cast thing kicks in (I heard it's 97% but let's go with the lower figure for sake of argument), you'd need 58% more channeling on those 5 pieces, or an average 11.6%. While that's theoretically possible with -6%/-6% and -6%/-6%/-3% and -6%/-6%/-6% gear, realistically there are only going to be enough of these items to outfit maybe two or three casters per server.

(Yes I know you can get -3% with two pieces of TT gear. But the above list of equipment means the *only* armor you can wear which is TT are the boots. The rest have to be custom, rank, or nirvana.)

The only other factor I can think of is the -25% channeling from demon spark. What I don't know is if caster spells give enough chi for one to remain permanently demon sparked like melee can once you reach 3.33 atk/sec. My guess is the answer is no. The videos I've seen show a wizard needing about 6 spells to gain 1 spark, so 18 spells per demon spark. Their cast delays range from 0.8-2.0 sec, call it 1.4 average. So 18 spells is 25.2 sec cast delay, which (with lag and 3 sec spark pause) is demon sparked about half the time.

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that most of this stuff is broken. Interval, 100+ wizards, both tideborne classes, and a host of other things. Glad I don't PvP.

Dealerr - Raging Tide

So the conculsion i suppose is DUN chose a magic class in perfect world, go for att class that need interval because no matter how magic class spent coins/gold in channeling the result will be pity. Or as in it seem so impossible to achieve the so called 93% channel.

While 5dps Interval is achievable.

Therefore new comers now u know wat class to chose xD

Plot - Dreamweaver

Dealerr - Raging Tide wrote: »

So the conculsion i suppose is DUN chose a magic class in perfect world, go for att class that need interval because no matter how magic class spent coins/gold in channeling the result will be pity. Or as in it seem so impossible to achieve the so called 93% channel.

While 5dps Interval is achievable.

Therefore new comers now u know wat class to chose xD

Just imagine no magic class and whole server everyone is using claw and fist or i mean everyone is working on interval . (thrash -% channeling)

LOL that will be . . . . . . . . . b:surrender

Nalamwen - Raging Tide

This poll is about fist/claw being class specific.

IMO fist/claw could be BM specific and I personally wouldn't care. If i wanna use fists. I'll reroll BM.

If I play a veno but for one day I feel like using fists. Maybe I'll go play a BM alt.

You know cause they give you 6 character slots. Experiment away. ijs


Interval gear may be a problem. idk

When barb is better (so i've read here, idk) with fist/claw there's a problem.

Magiere - Dreamweaver

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Sorry, those numbers are pretty much pure BS and are much closer to even than that. If a fist claw BM is getting 3-5k damage per hit on any specific boss, a similarly geared wizard is going to be hitting 20-40k.

Wizard with frenzy sutra ultis can hit fully amped Nirvana bosses for like 200k. Fist claw BM can't even compare to that kind of spike damage ever.

And brining up wizards while trying to say how broken -interval BMs are? That arguement is really fail. Nothing is more broken in the game than 10x wizards with their lvl 11 skills. Well, I have yet to see how fishies cope with their new lvl11 skills, that may make 'BM/Wiz are broken' arguments moot.

A wizard with a +10 NP will steal aggro from a fist/claw BM if they are not permasparking.

Just wow, no.
Alright I'm a cleric so my damage is bit less than undined wiz firing attacks, but I deal 3,5k average on a Nirvana boss with +10 NP, 5k if i spark.(u gotta be kidding with 20-40k, seriously..)
The wizard dmg isnt out of my ****, since we tested this yesterday in a run and she did 7k, 7,3k, some 8k and one 10k or smth.I only bring wizard up becaus Sutra is the only spell that comes close for ANYONE to even understand what 100% channel would mean.
I have yet to see any wiz dealing more than 50k dmg on a Nirvana boss, no idea how u can come up with 200k on a nerfed boss, that would mean he would hit around 800k on a normal boss/mob when the highest dmg screenshots in wiz Forum are around 300k on a mob.b:beatup

So you telling me interval is not broken when my Duo Nirvana runs with a fist BM are faster than my runs with a 6 people squad. ?
Have you actually seen how hard it is for wizards to be accepted into nirvana, cos of their 'low dps' ?

Regenbogen - Lost City

Bow: the only all class ranged weapon with the ****ty 20m range on non archers...
my sin oneshoted himself often enough when mobs castet reflect while i was doing a skill..b:surrender

Fist/Claws: did anyone tried a fist/claw wizard?b:shocked

Ursa - Dreamweaver

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Sorry, those numbers are pretty much pure BS and are much closer to even than that. If a fist claw BM is getting 3-5k damage per hit on any specific boss, a similarly geared wizard is going to be hitting 20-40k.

Wizard with frenzy sutra ultis can hit fully amped Nirvana bosses for like 200k. Fist claw BM can't even compare to that kind of spike damage ever.

And brining up wizards while trying to say how broken -interval BMs are? That arguement is really fail. Nothing is more broken in the game than 10x wizards with their lvl 11 skills. Well, I have yet to see how fishies cope with their new lvl11 skills, that may make 'BM/Wiz are broken' arguments moot.

A wizard with a +10 NP will steal aggro from a fist/claw BM if they are not permasparking.

dude, u really have good and thought through posts, but this one has nothing to do with the reality.
I'm all with magiere on this one.
Damage coming from fists at 5 aps and permasparked cannot be compared with anything. Will PWI ever change it? NO, because ppl are charging cash to take advantage of the -interval glitch. Yes, is a glitch.

Now to talk numbers, take me for example. Pretty good geared wizard i might say. 12.9k mag attk buffed, 15% crit. Weapon is a Neon +10 with a saphire gem.
I only did one nirvana run until now, couldn't care less about it, so I'll talk about TT or other (?) bosses in Warsong/whatever.
I'm doing around 4.x k on them, 9.xk when tripple sparked with gush/pyro. If I add Undine on top, I'm getting to a 9.5k. Debuffed, poisoned and amped i'm hitting around 15k. With HF on top of spark/debuff/amp I'm hitting 25k. My best crit on a TT boss (Emperor, the 3-3 BH ) was 52k.
Now, let's say venos and clerics are keeping the boss debuffed+ amped, I'm keeping it poisoned and undined - that means I can do about 7-8k dmg (withoug being tripple sparked) every two seconds when building chi and spamming gush/pyro.
A tripple sparked fisted archer/bm will hit let's say 1.5k/hit. It hits way more than that (just look at chezedude's videos, normal hits at 7k, crits at 14k, 2 crits /sec average ), but lets just take that 1.5k average, multiplied by 5 = 7.5k dmg/sec. No debuffs, no amps, no nothing. Just tripple sparked 5 aps = double the damage a wizard is capable. Even my burst in sutras or the hits with 3 sparked HF will not be able to close the gap.
Yesterday night I was in TT with a fisted archer, not 5 aps yet, but close to. He was doing 6 times the dps with his +5 lunar fists(or claws, whatever those are) that he was doing with his +10 lunar bow.
You call that fair?
I'm sory, whoever calls that fair is an idiot.
/endthread