Fists & Claws break PWI ?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · May 2010

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Damage coming from fists at 5 aps and permasparked cannot be compared with anything. Will PWI ever change it? NO, because ppl are charging cash to take advantage of the -interval glitch. Yes, is a glitch.

It's not a glitch, everything is working as intended, if anything it is exploiting poorly designed interval mechanics. The only way to "fix" it would be to change the interval system to something else. I'd love to have a flat %-based system as it would mean I could go back to using a bow for nice DPS.

If you want an example of a glitch consider the pet skill flesh ream. It does much more damage in PVP than the skill description indicates because it ignores PVP damage reduction. But venos charge a lot of money for nixes (which don't even come with flesh ream) just to exploit that glitch. It's been years now and they never fixed it.

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

You can't expect to do as much DPS as a melee character because that would make a caster a lot more broken than a BM in pvp.

i realize the difference is too great to call it balanced, but someone suggest that you can break channel barrier with enough -channel and Magiere decides that it's BS because it's not enough damage output?

like really, what was her point there? that a wizard with 0 chan should do comparable DPS as a fist user from 30 meters away?

Ursa - Dreamweaver · May 2010

I get your point, but you think is fair for an archer to be able to x6 his DPS just by using fists? A class that already had the highest DPS ingame (combined with STA).

Really now, I'm not expecting to have my DPS same as fist BM, but for God's sake, I don't want that BM to have 100 times my DPS. Yes, he is melee, but he can leap back and forth/sprint also, so I don't pitty them for lack of range.

And what magiere was saying is how hard is actually for any caster to get to 0 channel, and even then there is the cast time. That cast time limits the DPS of any caster, and cannot be change in any shape of form. Most of the fast skills have a 1 sec cast time, so even with 0 channel we can hit once every second. And we can't be permasparked. You as archer/BM with fists can hit 5 times/second permasparked - and dmg on spark is in average 75% of the damage a wizard does/hit (two of those 5 hits /sec are mathematically a crit). we hit once every second with 0 channel, u hit 5 times. Make the math, u don't need to be a rocket scientist.

A few hundred $ and you have a max interval chars on either BMs or Archer. Honestly, from both PvE or PvP point of view is not worth playing anything beside those two classes, there is nothing that comes even close as bang for the buck.

Asperitas - Lost City · May 2010

In my opinion, wizards and barbarians are just as powerful in PVP.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · May 2010

they are if you compare them fully geared and refined and sharded.

But to get there you need coins/cash...Soloing TTs, nirvana, etc, making runs in half the time I takes another full squad to do it, how the ** is that fair?

I'm just gonna stop here, ppl seem to look at one tree and fail to see the God damn forest.

FrostKiller - Sanctuary · May 2010

It all depends on the money you spend, you can't really say fists are op now. If you bring nirvana gears into the picture, a 10x wiz can spark frenzy 1 hit a bm, even 30k hp barbs have been one hit. Same with archers with bows they can 1 hit crit bms. So if you're really going to nerf fists then balance the rest of the game too.

For the longest time fists were hated on and thought weak, people laughed at me for being fist then between me and maybe 5-10 or so people most of sanc has fists. I've been building up my interval since lvl 74 when i restatted, and now everyone QQs because bms can do more than buff and stun now?

Sure wiz isn't great for pve, don't quote me on it its just from what i've seen. Its not because of fists though, since even level 70 up i've barely been put in parties with a wiz.

It's not like i'm pulling this stuff from nowhere, there are multiple people in sanc with +12 nirvana weps. Even in tw everyone complains because this one wiz (doesn't even have nirvana) is easily blasting 10k+ on fully buffed people, with 20k crits

"Don't fix something that is not broken"

Asperitas - Lost City · May 2010

How do fist BMs farm in half your time without all the interval? Maybe after stacking a certain amount of interval they can do it, but this goes back to your original statement. You need to farm to get that interval.

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · May 2010

I agree they are broken. Lots of things in the game are broken. I'm not going to bother listing them since everyone knows what they are. Claws aren't all that useful to archers in PVP in my opinion but maybe there are archers out there who have found a way to use them better.

Heartstone - Dreamweaver · May 2010

god damn effing err write a whole page and firefox decided go a page back / remove.. lol

..When a class can use another class's wepeon, and then do more dmg, something isnt right, thats logic.

for the channel barrier. yea in theory its possible, but it's not buy-able in packs.
Fist bm's couldnt go above 2,22 or so before packs. Packs gave them access to nearly impossible stuff to obtain or very veyr ahrd as you didnt see Lunar weps around before except a CV bow somehwere i forgot ( that person worked for it tho)

Interval users benefit alot more from packs thna any1 else, they can basically jsut charge and ther u go dps to kill any1 in the game.

Channeling kinda same thing, as fist bm's interval gear was mostly impossible to get or impossible.. Channeling still is unless ur god or something, chances / time used to actually make -12% rings -18% belt or whatever poissbile is jsut about what interval stuff neded before packs, therefore balanced.. or atleast closer to..

there's not oht gear with -12 / -18% channel in packs for the poor magic classes, but there is minus interval stuff for the melee classes! yes its FAIR LOL.

no really. should jsut cap aps at 2,22-2,86 or so. or change interval system calculation as some ppl suggested.

PurpleBerry - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Well, one reason they would make that build on an archer or barb would be from boredom or just to kill faster. Well, i built my barb as using claws because i was inspired by another barb that had been using this build. Well, heres my barb and its decent in PVP in my opinion.
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=75623a2ee134c030

Ursa - Dreamweaver · May 2010

It all depends on the money you spend, you can't really say fists are op now. If you bring nirvana gears into the picture, a 10x wiz can spark frenzy 1 hit a bm, even 30k hp barbs have been one hit. Same with archers with bows they can 1 hit crit bms. So if you're really going to nerf fists then balance the rest of the game too.

you really can't even grasp that there is a forest and not only 2-3 trees?

Asperitas - Lost City wrote: »

How do fist BMs farm in half your time without all the interval? Maybe after stacking a certain amount of interval they can do it, but this goes back to your original statement. You need to farm to get that interval.

When does the gear/refines/shards really count? Endgame. 99 for the bonus on TT99 ornaments/gear set.
Yes, they have to farm the gear same way a wizard/cleric has. But from that point on, there is no match. I don't give a flying sht about anything else that endgame. And when you can run solo an instance in half the time it take a full non-fisted squad to do it, I think there is a problem, and if you can't see it, you have one too.

LE: Do i think it will ever be fixed? NO. Just as the Nix Bleed bug. It's a source of income. But I won't accept ppl trying to explain to me that what I see is not true. I played fisted archer with max interval, I know what I can do. Giving any class the ability to be permasparked is r.etarded.

Fullstop for me here.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

they are if you compare them fully geared and refined and sharded.

But to get there you need coins/cash...Soloing TTs, nirvana, etc, making runs in half the time I takes another full squad to do it, how the ** is that fair?

I'm just gonna stop here, ppl seem to look at one tree and fail to see the God damn forest.

How else would you compare them..... 0.o

I mean my lvl 7x cleric is totally op compared to everyone 6x and below....woot!!! Is that a good comparison...wait...

FrostKiller - Sanctuary · May 2010

so fists are better at one aspect of the game and you go all 'protect the forest' crazy on us? And btw its not in half the time a fist user can usually solo a bit slower or the same speed as a squad.

And so you know when it comes to tt's like 3-2 and stuff, where the real money is most fisters like to duo with a cleric, meaning you would benefit from it too, im guessing your a cleric. try making some friends instead of instantly bashing something different

Fist:
Pvp single target: No advantage due to kiting
Pvp group: No advantage due to aoes and 2v1 etc
Pve single target: Big advantage
Pve group: No advantage few aoes

I could do the same for every class and compare them but I feel that point is pretty obvious some have strengths where others don't

blindeyesniper · May 2010

FrostKiller - Sanctuary wrote: »

so fists are better at one aspect of the game and you go all 'protect the forest' crazy on us? And btw its not in half the time a fist user can usually solo a bit slower or the same speed as a squad.

Yep, not OPed at all!

Heartstone - Dreamweaver · May 2010

go look trhough forums its interval users vs non interval users.

all posts will be biased, will never post soemthing there would make themself weaker.
interval users will post its fair, non interval argue against.

We can just ask Gm's / Devs whatever to go look pvp, check server log dmg calculations, see statistics and decide is somethign wrong here? will they do? - most likely not.

they monitor instances sometimes right, why don't they watch the interval users, a bell should ring when 1/2 ppl do a TT in 30-40 mins. or kill a WB in few mins.. like really they should watch it.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · May 2010

Michael_dark - Lost City wrote: »

Sorry, those numbers are pretty much pure BS and are much closer to even than that. If a fist claw BM is getting 3-5k damage per hit on any specific boss, a similarly geared wizard is going to be hitting 20-40k.

Wizard with frenzy sutra ultis can hit fully amped Nirvana bosses for like 200k. Fist claw BM can't even compare to that kind of spike damage ever.

And brining up wizards while trying to say how broken -interval BMs are? That arguement is really fail. Nothing is more broken in the game than 10x wizards with their lvl 11 skills. Well, I have yet to see how fishies cope with their new lvl11 skills, that may make 'BM/Wiz are broken' arguments moot.

A wizard with a +10 NP will steal aggro from a fist/claw BM if they are not permasparking.

As usual you cannot comprehend numbers and are delusional.

But nevertheless, since arguing with numbers & facts with you is pointless as always, let me give you an example what happened on my server at the Nien event yesterday.

There's this psychic with Nirvana +11 weapon on his gear, and a lot of awesome other refined gear. And there's this uber BM from the same fac with 5 aps and awesome gear. In other words, 2 people of equal gear somewhat.

BM had like 5 times the contribution points of the psy. Since for DDs contribution points is based on damage, you get the idea. Do you?

What does that tell you, Mr. I'm Always Right?

What the hell am I supposed to make of that? If the psy had the survivability of a barb then I would understand this but... squishy AND dealing MUCH less damage? What the ****. b:angry

FrostKiller - Sanctuary · May 2010

blindeyesniper wrote: »

Yep, not OPed at all!

with the costs of a full squad though (charm + crab meat + repairs)

Venos can solo slower but with relatively no cost attached, fix them too? Although i don't think they're broken

Ursa - Dreamweaver · May 2010

FrostKiller - Sanctuary wrote: »

with the costs of a full squad though (charm + crab meat + repairs)

Venos can solo slower but with relatively no cost attached, fix them too? Although i don't think they're broken

aw, I said I'll stop but ... you're a numb nut.
Cost is not an issue when ALL DROPS GO TO YOU Einstein.
sheesh...
This game is not only messed up, it getting filled with lvl 100 brainless droids too.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Soloing a TT isn't gonna make you spend over 2m on Repairs/Charms/Crabmeats, while you're going to make well over that even if no golds drop, if a gold drops then you make an even bigger profit.

5APS is broken. Period. No amount of saying it's fair and that other classes hit higher will fix that, because while they have more damage in one hit in the time it takes them to actually hit something with it you've already done more damage.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · May 2010

Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »

aw, I said I'll stop but ... you're a numb nut.
Cost is not an issue when ALL DROPS GO TO YOU Einstein.
sheesh...
This game is not only messed up, it getting filled with lvl 100 brainless droids too.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

FrostKiller - Sanctuary · May 2010

or a veno spends nothing going and all drops go to him/her stop bashing one class

FrostKiller - Sanctuary · May 2010

and zan you make it sound like 5aps is normal, thats only for super geared archers, if a fist sparks to get 5 aps you just run till its gone, its not that hard. then you can 1 hit them

edit: since no matter what evidence you're provided with you continue to QQ theres no point in this and im tired of watching forums. Depending on what you pick out any class can be OP and any wep can be OP and any build can be OP (besides arcane bm)

Zanryu - Dreamweaver · May 2010

I never said every Archer/BM was running around with 5 APS, only that having that much -int is broken. I was referring to PvE btw, not PvP, however since you wanna bring PvP up I'm sure you know the BM is a stunning monster. With enough -int all you need to do is RotP>D spark>RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPE>Occult if they're somehow still alive after RotP wears off>MORE RAAAAAAAAAAAAAPE >.>

As for the whole one shotting thing... if the BM has enough refines/shards one shotting them will be extremely hard, only doable with a highly refined weapon and debuffing. Assuming they don't Magic Marrow/TE/Balance and just laugh it off then come up and stun then kill you anyway.

EDIT: I sure wish my avatar would stop switching between 93 and 94, I'm level 94 now dammit! Stop taking my level away from me

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

FrostKiller - Sanctuary wrote: »

It all depends on the money you spend, you can't really say fists are op now. If you bring nirvana gears into the picture, a 10x wiz can spark frenzy 1 hit a bm, even 30k hp barbs have been one hit. Same with archers with bows they can 1 hit crit bms. So if you're really going to nerf fists then balance the rest of the game too.

For the longest time fists were hated on and thought weak, people laughed at me for being fist then between me and maybe 5-10 or so people most of sanc has fists. I've been building up my interval since lvl 74 when i restatted, and now everyone QQs because bms can do more than buff and stun now?

Sure wiz isn't great for pve, don't quote me on it its just from what i've seen. Its not because of fists though, since even level 70 up i've barely been put in parties with a wiz.

It's not like i'm pulling this stuff from nowhere, there are multiple people in sanc with +12 nirvana weps. Even in tw everyone complains because this one wiz (doesn't even have nirvana) is easily blasting 10k+ on fully buffed people, with 20k crits

"Don't fix something that is not broken"

archer 1 shots BM only if you're unbuffed and is **** enough to marrow yourself the wrong way. if archer can 1 shot crit a BM then are you saying wizards would be able to 1 shot crit a BM with pyro/gush? archer metal nukes have very similar flat addon to the wizard basic nukes, plus archers' slightly higher base damage is made up by wiz nukes' extra weapon attack addon.

i'm sure you're just about the only bm complaining about getting 1 shot by archers around here. highest damaging metal nuke is base damage + 4.8k. with 14k base damage buffed using a +10 HS i would crit about 9k metal damage after pvp reduction. assuming most bms have at least 50% mdef redux that brings me down to 4.5k - yeah that sounds about right for a typical metal crit on a buffed bm. i realize that someone with a +12 g15 wep can have upwards of say, 18k base damage, but seriously, that's not going to 1 shot a decent geared bm. if the archer has +12 g15 then you're going to assume the bm is just as rich if you want to make a valid point and some of the best geared bms on sanctuary have 20k+ hp.

this 1 wiz that is blasting 10k+ on fully buffed people, you talking about the one with +10 8jun? "not even nirvana"

and for the last ****ing time: fist bms suck balls in PvP at mid levels because you don't have gear giving you -0.5s interval. without -interval you wouldn't even be able to break charm. every bm was right when they said fist bms suck back then because mid levels and non-TT99 gear was the context with which they made that statement. this is just like when people used to say LA or 1 shot when referring to PvP caster builds.

Nalamwen - Raging Tide · May 2010

Wow great way to derail a thread dip fks. Reread OP then take a week off and come back after drinking yourself into retardation for another day.

Get a life and derail your own threads.

OP asked your opinion on whether fist/claw should be BM only.

Nothing to do with all your conspiracy theory garbage.

Welcome to Haven. Please check your dignity and clothing at the door.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Nalamwen - Raging Tide wrote: »

Wow great way to derail a thread dip fks. Reread OP then take a week off and come back after drinking yourself into retardation for another day.

Get a life and derail your own threads.

OP asked your opinion on whether fist/claw should be BM only.

Nothing to do with all your conspiracy theory garbage.

Welcome to Haven. Please check your dignity and clothing at the door.

*gets naked* b:dirty

Meursault - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Sorry if it's been said already, not gonna read the whole thread with all these 12 year olds fighting ^

but no, I think it wouldn't be fair to make Fists/Claws class restricted. It's too late for that.
Just as it's too late to fix the bug that allows pets to do full damage on TT bosses, etc.

The reason is simple, many people spent a lot of time and money on those builds.

NightRage - Raging Tide · May 2010

If any class can use a bow, any class should be able to use fists.

Telarith - Sanctuary · May 2010

Not really sure saying a bow is useable by anyone, so claws should be as well is really accurate. The bow is one of 3 archer weapons, with the faster one being restricted. So using that as a comparison, claws/fists should be BM only and swords or spears should be allowed to other classes. So not a real great counter-argument really.

Though it is strange how similar it is to an old thread about people complaining about venos being able to solo squad TTs, with every veno and their mother arguing for it being kept that way. In the end, their main thing was since it was coded that way, their class should be allowed to gain the money. And that being able to do it allowed prices to be lower on TT mats. Never mind how much they just really liked the cash from it. Best part is reading a post where a veno complains others can now do it, and do it better. The fact that it costs even more money than a herc is just icing on the cake, as they also believed herc expenditure entitled them to the lucrative cash stream.

So all for not letting venos have an opinion in regards to TT soloing, raise your hand and fight their hypocrisy

By the way, this forum has already proven itself too short-sighted to actually give useful advice to devs in regards to balance, as they keep changing their mind constantly. Even the archers are real bad about it, as they went from saying they are better than fists can get, to fists being better but not good for archers, to losing damage to using fists, to actually using Deicides. Just let the devs over in china go over balance issues and test them over there on a server that has end game as a reality, much better than getting their ideas from here at any rate.

Daizengar - Sanctuary · May 2010

Let me just get this straight.

Back a year ago, there were us few BMs who thought to use Fist/Claws in addition to Sword/Pole/Axe and were constantly laughed at and rejected from squads and other junk in favor of some pitiful fail Vit Axe BM. Hell, even regular BMs were often rejected from many things aside from rebirth simply because "A BM is not needed at all".

Now with all the readily available -interval gear, Fist/Claws became an accepted and also favored build for the higher level BMs who want to improve their damage and be more then some wimpy pure vit Axe.

Then comes the other classes, crying about how suddenly BMs 'got stronger' and everybody wants one with them, particularly those certain BMs who hit extremely fast.

"What? This BM deals more damage then ME!? Only I should be able to deal lots of damage! Someone nerf these guys!"

That about sums up the thoughts of certain people, while ignoring the advantages that they have over our class. Of course then, BMs just HAVE to be nerfed so the egos of other DD classes doesn't get hurt even more.

And then of course, there are the Archers. Some have decided that they are absolutely not satisfied with seeing Deicide BMs deal out more DPS. So they decide to become Clawchers.

But wait, what if Fist/Claws were changed to become a BM only weapon? OUTRAGEOUS. If Archers can't get 5APS, BMs shouldn't be allowed to either!

"Oh, it's SO unfair! Those BM's don't get to use Crossbows or Slingshots, yet we Archers shouldn't be restricted from any of their weapons!"

That's really all I am hearing from you people. And it sickens me.

Fists & Claws break PWI ?

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