Fists & Claws break PWI ?

Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 · May 2010

There are so many things broken with the mechanics in this game you should just stop caring. Right now 5a/s gear is all very expensive and comes at least in part from packs. This makes PWE money. Why would they do anything that decreases their income?

RRARRRRGGHHH - Sanctuary · May 2010

Interval is just broken....Its also a 100% gear based attribute. I can take a cleric or wizard, deck them out in minus interval gear, and chances are they will deal more dps with that then with their normal skills. Sure they would suck for everything else besides dding...but this is besides the point. And sins getting 5 with daggers is even more broken then fists with 5.

When it comes to minus interval...some classes have better buffs to do more damage than others, but overall for any class it works the same. In other words, take an identical -int build on pwi calc, and just swap the class type...nothing really changes aside from a few class specific skills and the physical damage due to class str mods. Arcanes also do not get +phys weap damage from spark eruptions, so deal far less damage...but the point of the matter is when you can take an identical build for every single class in the game...that has almost the same results for every single class in the game....and for any non caster class in the game is insanely OP....thats broken.

I highly doubt any of this stuff will ever be fixed either considering how much money has already been invested in these kinds of builds...it would really really make alot of cash shoppers extremely angry. Or if they made this bm specific like it should be...the entire archer community would go rage quit on them. So basically because nothing was done early on it is now impossible to fix this problem without creating massive amounts of other problems.

Borsuc - Raging Tide · May 2010

The poll is stupid, I was expecting something about changing the -interval system.

blindeyesniper wrote: »

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=636499541db88863
All pieces +5. All 3 sockets with Perfect Garnets in them, we're looking at 8.2k physical defense, 9k magic attack, 4.5k life.
With sage stone barrier, we're looking at 9k physical defense. With demon, we're looking at 10k.
With HP buff, you have 5.8k life, but we're only talking about +5 refines that can be attained by using mirages.

Is that OP? I don't know.

Well that's certainly kinda underpowered, survivability-wise only of course.

Shinsen - Lost City · May 2010

I think the only thing that could make this "issue" disappear is to fix the -interval bonus gain with additional weapons (daggers/claws). Make the speed bonus for these weapons abit lower. In others words, slightly nerf it. And 5 att/s is way beyond balance. If with demon spark u could get to 3.5 att/s it would be ok i guess. Still kinda impressive speed imo. So every still will be able to use fist/claws but i think then classes that are kinda suppose to use other weapons, will stick to it, instead of runing with "glowing hands".

p.s. i ain't jealous to these cash shopped guys who have the max speed - good for them. And it's not their fault they have such gear and can pretty solo bosses - the pwi gave such opportunity and it would be not wise not to use it if u are able to do so. The game itself needs more balance.

And the poll is wrong. Everyone who want's to use any weapon would be allowed to. It's their choice. And as i said already, i think if the attack speed bonus for fist would get nerfed - archers (mentioned in the poll) would not go to claws/fists all the way.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Shinsen - Lost City wrote: »

I think the only thing that could make this "issue" disappear is to fix the -interval bonus gain with additional weapons (daggers/claws). Make the speed bonus for these weapons abit lower. In others words, slightly nerf it. And 5 att/s is way beyond balance. If with demon spark u could get to 3.5 att/s it would be ok i guess. Still kinda impressive speed imo. So every still will be able to use fist/claws but i think then classes that are kinda suppose to use other weapons, will stick to it, instead of runing with "glowing hands".

p.s. i ain't jealous to these cash shopped guys who have the max speed - good for them. And it's not their fault they have such gear and can pretty solo bosses - the pwi gave such opportunity and it would be not wise not to use it if u are able to do so. The game itself needs more balance.

And the poll is wrong. Everyone who want's to sue any weapon would be allowed to. It's their choice. And as i said already, i think if the attack speed bonus for fist would get nerfed - archers (mentioned in the poll) would not go to claws/fists all the way.

My suggestion on -Interval (which i will keep saying till everyone who reads the forums sees it, cause people tend to agree) isnt a nerf exactly. but rather a change over to a % based system. if every -.05 Interval translated to -5%, this would be a "nerf" to any weapon faster then 1 aps. what used to be -.5 Int which would bring .7 speed fists to .2 (which is 5 aps) would instead bring it to .35 (which is 2.85 aps) which is similar to the idea of a 3aps cap. However, this would actually be a beneficial change to weapons which start out slower then 1 aps. Allowing weapons like axes and bows to receive a greater benefit (cause atm, to slow weapons, -Int is barely felt). Archers with the slowest weapons would indeed retain their role (as was intended by the devs) as highest physical dps.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

My suggestion on -Interval (which i will keep saying till everyone who reads the forums sees it, cause people tend to agree) isnt a nerf exactly. but rather a change over to a % based system. if every -.05 Interval translated to -5%, this would be a "nerf" to any weapon faster then 1 aps. what used to be -.5 Int which would bring .7 speed fists to .2 (which is 5 aps) would instead bring it to .35 (which is 2.85 aps) which is similar to the idea of a 3aps cap. However, this would actually be a beneficial change to weapons which start out slower then 1 aps. Allowing weapons like axes and bows to receive a greater benefit (cause atm, to slow weapons, -Int is barely felt). Archers with the slowest weapons would indeed retain their role (as was intended by the devs) as highest physical dps.

You realize then people would be running around with high spike damage axes....auto attacking real fast........and that would be broken...to many variables need consideration.

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide wrote: »

So again I say , these builds are based on PVE that include high lvl instance clearing that could now be done by mostly any of these classes . This might make some wonder : " What's the point of having different classes if they can take each others role ? " .

/Discuss.

and what would the role of a BM be? to tank bosses and deal ridiculous DPS to it by perma sparking? then where does that leave other DD classes?

in endgame PvE everyone just take fists and kill bosses very fast, i don't see a problem with that. if you want different classes do different things, theres always PvP

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You realize then people would be running around with high spike damage axes....auto attacking real fast........and that would be broken...to many variables need consideration.

fists would still win because of spark coverage. it's not like slower weapons would ever approach the speed or spark coverage of a faster weapon.

MagicHamsta - Lost City · May 2010

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

and what would the role of a BM be? to tank bosses and deal ridiculous DPS to it by perma sparking? then where does that leave other DD classes?

in endgame PvE everyone just take fists and kill bosses very fast, i don't see a problem with that.

heavy armor fist wizard
^(O.O)^

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · May 2010

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You realize then people would be running around with high spike damage axes....auto attacking real fast........and that would be broken...to many variables need consideration.

Axes which start out at half the speed of fists would still be half the speed of fists. since fists do more dps 1v1 then axes, they would STILL do more dps then axes in 1v1. Just the balance between the 2 weapons wouldnt be completely destroyed. It would be in line with channelling, where every weapon receives an equal % increase in DPS. Nothing would be broken at all. In fact alot of Axes skill spam, and since -Interval doesnt effect Skills, it would still be of greater benefit to fists who go on auto-attack and make a sandwich.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Bare with me here. Trying to understand people logic.

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

fists would still win because of spark coverage. it's not like slower weapons would ever approach the speed or spark coverage of a faster weapon.

Because Axe/hammer users don't have access to sparks ?? Fists will be faster still yes but what change to DPS would occur between the two?

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Axes which start out at half the speed of fists would still be half the speed of fists. since fists do more dps 1v1 then axes, they would STILL do more dps then axes in 1v1. Just the balance between the 2 weapons wouldnt be completely destroyed. It would be in line with channelling, where every weapon receives an equal % increase in DPS. Nothing would be broken at all. In fact alot of Axes skill spam, and since -Interval doesnt effect Skills, it would still be of greater benefit to fists who go on auto-attack and make a sandwich.

That doesn't make sense. If weapon A attacks twice as fast as weapon B but due to adds weapon B is able to benefit more then weapon A (according to you); B would would slowly gain on weapon A. Thus an imbalance would happen. And someone would figure a way to capitalize on it.

Either your not explaining your "fix" properly or its broken. I would love to see the math of a fully geared fist user with your fix, a axe/hammer user with your fix, and a bow user with your fix. Thanks.

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

fist users would spend more time sparked because they spark more often due to building chi faster with higher attack speed. even if you compare fist vs ranged wep with no -interval equip, fist DPS still wins if the bm sparks every chance he gets

Yulk - Heavens Tear · May 2010

At first, the dark ages of Lyundara was alive, now fists are being blamed for the 5 aps? Its the interval in gears that is the problem, at least I think so. From math, it seems very weird IMO

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · May 2010

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That doesn't make sense. If weapon A attacks twice as fast as weapon B but due to adds weapon B is able to benefit more then weapon A (according to you); B would would slowly gain on weapon A. Thus an imbalance would happen. And someone would figure a way to capitalize on it.

Either your not explaining your "fix" properly or its broken. I would love to see the math of a fully geared fist user with your fix, a axe/hammer user with your fix, and a bow user with your fix. Thanks.

I dont understand whats so hard to comprehend about % based interval system being equal gains for all.

If person A does x dps
& person B does y dps

now they each have -50% Interval

then person A does 2x dps
and person B does 2y dps

The proportion of dps remains constant.

If A was originally 1.3 of B, its STILL 1.3 of B.
If A was originally .8 of B, its STILL .8 of B.

Whatever the scaling of the weapons was prior to level 95ish (uber -Interval gear starting) it would STILL be proportional to each other. Axes (or weapon

are not gaining any greater advantage of it then fists are. Axes were less dps then fists 1v1, but better then fists in AoE. That would not change. If Axes do less then fists 1v1, and they do twice as much, and fists do twice as much (both from -50% Interval) Fists would STILL do more dmg in 1v1 then axes. It just would no longer jump from fists doing like 1.5x as much as axes to fists doing 6 times as much damage axes. It would stay at 1.5x as much as axes.

I dont know any way to explain it better then that.

Edit:

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

fist users would spend more time sparked because they spark more often due to building chi faster with higher attack speed. even if you compare fist vs ranged wep with no -interval equip, fist DPS still wins if the bm sparks every chance he gets

Also this is right. Regardless fists still gain faster chi due to faster weapons and a constant chi per hit for all weapons of 5 chi. As such, they can get enough chi to triple spark in half the time (roughly, saying fists are twice as fast as axes, proportion maybe slightly off). As such they can spark nearly twice as much as Axe users.

On another note, although i mentioned it already, Axes users tend to spam skills for their AOEs. Skill usage is uneffected by -Interval as it only affects auto-attck speed. This is another way in which fists take greater advantage of -Interval even if it was % based and not the way it is now.

In the end, even a % based Interval system would win out for fists, just not nearly to the extent in which it currently does.

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Darksylph - Heavens Tear wrote: »

My suggestion on -Interval (which i will keep saying till everyone who reads the forums sees it, cause people tend to agree) isnt a nerf exactly. but rather a change over to a % based system. if every -.05 Interval translated to -5%, this would be a "nerf" to any weapon faster then 1 aps. what used to be -.5 Int which would bring .7 speed fists to .2 (which is 5 aps) would instead bring it to .35 (which is 2.85 aps) which is similar to the idea of a 3aps cap. However, this would actually be a beneficial change to weapons which start out slower then 1 aps. Allowing weapons like axes and bows to receive a greater benefit (cause atm, to slow weapons, -Int is barely felt). Archers with the slowest weapons would indeed retain their role (as was intended by the devs) as highest physical dps.

Oh I understand % just fine.

But you state above...." However, this would actually be a beneficial change to weapons which start out slower then 1 aps."

So I"m asking you to prove it with math. With the attack formula. That's all. Let me see the hard evidence of your suggestion. Lets see the DPS each would get. Lets compare to what each would have due to your fix....I asked it in my last post. And you have yet to show me anything worth while. Weapon must be same grade/similar. (before fix;fix comparison ideal)

@Quile - Yes that's the way it is. Faster weapon build chi faster. But if you are increasing the attack rate of weapons in a different manner then, as I asked above I would like to see the math of what the DPS change would be. Axes/bows deal more damage per hit...if you are giving them the better return on an add (changing game mechanics.) Thus DPS.

Darksylph - Heavens Tear · May 2010

AdvanceZero - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Oh I understand % just fine.

But you state above...." However, this would actually be a beneficial change to weapons which start out slower then 1 aps."

So I"m asking you to prove it with math. With the attack formula. That's all. Let me see the hard evidence of your suggestion. Lets see the DPS each would get. Lets compare to what each would have due to your fix....I asked it in my last post. And you have yet to show me anything worth while. Weapon must be same grade/similar. (before fix;fix comparison ideal)

@Quile - Yes that's the way it is. Faster weapon build chi faster. But if you are increasing the attack rate of weapons in a different manner then, as I asked above I would like to see the math of what the DPS change would be. Axes/bows deal more damage per hit...if you are giving them the better return on an add (changing game mechanics.) Thus DPS.

The attack formula isnt needed because -Interval isnt a piece of the attack formula. Whatever their attack per hit was prior, it would still be.

And when i say beneficial. I mean the way it is now;

Axes start with approximately 1.2 base interval. At -.5 Interval they become 0.7 interval.
In this they go from .83 aps to 1.43 aps. That gives them a 1.43/.83 = 172%, or 72% boost in DPS.

Fistsstart with approximately .7 base interval. At -.5 Interval they become 0.2 interval.
In this they go from 1.43 aps to 5 aps. That gives them a 5.0/1.43 = 350% or 250% boost in DPS.

Hence the currently broken system of static -Interval numbers. For faster weapons they get a MUCH larger boost in DPS.

Percentage based -Interval would make each weapon gain 100% more DPS for -50% Interval. This is a greater boost for slow weapons, but a reduction in boost for faster weapons. Thats how i say its beneficial to slow weapons. Not that they get more out of it then fists would, but instead that they stop getting less out of it, to now getting equal out of it.

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

what slyph is probably getting at is that a percentage decrease in attack interval benefits slower weapons more compared to flat decrease in attack interval.

she's comparing the 2 different systems

yashino · May 2010

you've failed all 3 chars

im lazy to do all 3 so im just gonna show you the archer

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=38ab146bf5a87398

SaiIorMoon - Lost City · May 2010

_Krue_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Classes being able to reach 5APS does not break the game.

If you don't know how to deal with a close combat class, like stun N run or even popping genie skills to combat them then uninstall.

b:bye

Yep 5k+dmg a second...easily tankable.

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide · May 2010

yashino wrote: »

you've failed all 3 chars

im lazy to do all 3 so im just gonna show you the archer

http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=38ab146bf5a87398

It was an example you genius b:beatup and already said that repeatedly . Lucky most ppl got the point , at least the ones with interesting comments .

Quilue - Sanctuary · May 2010

post on your sexy wiz more

Gasoline - Lost City · May 2010

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide wrote: »

So again I say , these builds are based on PVE that include high lvl instance clearing that could now be done by mostly any of these classes . This might make some wonder : " What's the point of having different classes if they can take each others role ? " .

/Discuss.

What the point of having any classes when a 5 aps char can solo an instance? BM + archer + sin or barbs anyone that can be perma sparked with max - interval, they can all solo every endgame instance in the game.

And it will also be 10 times faster than a regular party rushing it with normal DDs.

So i really cant find any argument why only BMs should be able to equip fists.

Its like saying only BMs and sins are allowed to be endgame tanks and DDs - rest of the classes will only have a purpose in TW and group pvp.

ChaoticEnvy - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »

So i really cant find any argument why only BMs should be able to equip fists.

Same Reason only Veno's can have pets and solo 99% of every instance. Every class should have its own "item" only it can use. It makes for diversity between the classes

Yulk - Heavens Tear · May 2010

TigerLily - Lost City wrote: »

You are still kinda fail for using fists at 7X. You are certainly not OP.

No point getting fists/claws til 90 at least once you can start stacking interval with Demon Sparks.

Fists are really only OP once you get at least 5 aps sparked which u need 95/99 for. No clue why you would use fists at 70 since you will have terrible **** dps anyway, makes more sense using axes as main weapon at that lvl.

That is exactly what Kyna was talking about. You fail for calling someone who uses fists fail, then cry OP. I bet if I was around your level, I wouldn't even need -int to whoop you, just aeleon blade, spark, roar of the pride. I beaten "axe" bms that way, oh wait, thats just duel... I would like to see Kyna whoop your booty, archers are easy kill for BMs if the BM is not dumb b:bye

blindeyesniper · May 2010

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Research is healthy

No intervals
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=6f5c73882a02750f <-- unarmed, 1.25 aps
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=2fef28b5fbced976 <-- sword, 1.11 aps
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=b0b9aedb17fb1955 <-- dual swords 0.91 aps
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=1a04d99b228da024 <-- pike 1 aps
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=29c6fd6bc4967cca <-- pole hammer 0.91 aps
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=cd7c8a16da1184fa <-- dual axe 0.83 aps
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=5f8c44ecf32d47ab -- claw 1.83 aps

With one piece of, -int 0.1
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=784f6a6cec844122 <-- unarmed
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=52cdeec309c0670c <-- sword
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=15e806742ff9022c <-- dual swords
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=bc7fccc423fd9d43 <-- pike
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=246459ba46824e92 <--- pole hammer
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=bd5c2f448c308328 <-- dual axe
http://pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=07fe41acb3d562e6 <--- claw

Unarmed and the other weapons get as much speed from faster weapons fist/claw > unarmed/dagger/magic instrument, etc.

That is exactly what Kyna was talking about. You fail for calling someone who uses fists fail, then cry OP. I bet if I was around your level, I wouldn't even need -int to whoop you, just aeleon blade, spark, roar of the pride. I beaten "axe" bms that way, oh wait, thats just duel... I would like to see Kyna whoop your booty, archers are easy kill for BMs if the BM is not dumb b:bye

RoidAbuse - Sanctuary · May 2010

Let's all become interval fist users! Cept for Clerics, we need their heals.
Everyone can now become a super DD and a tank! Cept for Clerics, they're not cool.

Asheera - Raging Tide · May 2010

What's broken is the interval system and how good it becomes.

I mean think about it, if it wasn't this overpowered people wouldn't actually strive for it, especially archers and barbs without the mastery. But they do because it's OP even for them.

5 atk/sec is overpowered yes, especially from BMs who have mastery & good survival too, on top of having secondary weapon if needed (axe mostly) for different things than pure raw single target DPS. A 5 atk/sec sin is also OP, same as archer & barb although these last 2 a little bit less.

Still your poll sucks, it's like saying only BMs should be overpowered in that aspect. It is more balanced this way, allowing more people to be OP, but still sucks, since casters are left out.

So either leave it as it is (changing to BM-only is worse), or much better but probably won't happen: change interval system. Cap it at 3 or something more reasonable, or make it % based like proposed.

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide · May 2010

TheMagicPimp - Raging Tide wrote: »

Don't get me wrong here , I'd hate playing a totally OP class ( wiz being my 1st character and I it + we all know their not OP at all ) . I do think they should limit claws & fists only to bms but at the same time add a limit to the highest attack speed you could have . 5 attacks / sec is game breaking indeed .

And I didn't forget to QQ about sins , I was just lazy b:surrender , figure it out :P

I felt the need to quote myself for some ppl to read .

A limit of 3 atk/sec sound's good to me. But a main reason I made this pole was to hear what ppl would have to say about it & what would they suggest as to be done . Quite pleased on answers tbh .

Capping atcks/sec or making it % based & limiting fists/claws to bms only (bows to archers too ) seem like the best solutions so far .

If any1 has more to add then please do , it's the whole point of this poll after all :P

Psudeotrophe - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Hakiii - Heavens Tear wrote: »

If they make it where I can't use fists that pretty much takes away one of my motives for leveling higher. And the fun diversity/experimentation of the game.

making a weapon that really should be a bm specific weapon bm specific takes away your want to play the game? O.o

I wanna use daggers on my archer but I cant, doesnt make it less fun.

I just wanna say, that since every class can use fists, I wanna be able to use crossbows. I dont care about the speed of the attack, I just wanna be able to use a crossbow. And I wanna give my barb a slingshot so he can look goofy holding the little peashooter. And make end game weapons for all classes too while your at it! I want an axe of the monarch mind on my barb! Oh Oh!! better! I want a bow of the demon hunter on my sin along with my end game daggers too!!!

If they make claws/fists bm specific will it break the game? No, not really, because ultimately in terms of balancing the game, it will make it more balanced, especially if they link it to an attack speed cap.

Just kinda awkward that people are complaining more about the fact that they're being "supposedly" made bm specific and "allegedly" the speed is being dropped, than the whole fact that their own personal skills of their classes aren't more powerful to combat this issue. Where's the complaint that -channeling doesn't decrease enough to get to 5 skills per second? Or how about the complaint that there's no weapon add that's a "-3% casting time?"

Oh and how about this? the whole term "BLADEMASTER?" Why cant they use daggers? Daggers are bladed right? Or how about why cant Blademasters use crossbows? Bolts have blades on them right?

Oh heres a better one for you caster types! Why don't all casters get soulforce? Why doesn't soulforce effect all other classes attacks?

What about Rage stat? Why cant bm's and barbs raise their rage?

What about an Aggro-meter? People play barbs to tank right? I'm sure they'd like to know who's about to snitch aggro right?

There needs to be a happy median met one way or another, and I for one welcome the class specific weapons. Bring it on please!

Hakiii - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Psudeotrophe - Dreamweaver wrote: »

making a weapon that really should be a bm specific weapon bm specific takes away your want to play the game? O.o

//cut

I started with magic on ENGMY and got pretty bored just sitting around watching my pet hit stuff, so when I came here I started the game with fists. I switched back at 70 , and didn't plan to switch again until 90.
I always saw fists and claws as the one random weapon that anyone could use-considering they never said a specific class.

That's one of the things that makes this game attractive, versatility.

Fish weapons don't really count, since they are new and of course that code wasn't implemented in old classes.

Asperitas - Lost City · May 2010

Yulk - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I bet if I was around your level, I wouldn't even need -int to whoop you, just aeleon blade, spark, roar of the pride. I beaten "axe" bms that way, oh wait, thats just duel... I would like to see Kyna whoop your booty, archers are easy kill for BMs if the BM is not dumb b:bye

Can someone supplement me with words? I seem to have lost mine.

Fists & Claws break PWI ?

Comments

Categories