Still a prestiege class

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver · May 2010

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

because most archers are cheap.

Well ok than, I'll change my argumant to that.

Now what would you rather have, a wizzy who actually always uses DB or an archer who is to cheap **** to use it

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Well ok than, I'll change my argumant to that.

Now what would you rather have, a wizzy who actually always uses DB or an archer who is to cheap **** to use it

because not many wizards have enough phys resistance and HP to tank hits. cheap archers > cheap wizards.

same to the "common sense" that archers have higher DPS than wizards. in theory wizards are able to deal over 50% damage over time than any archer but these wizards are very, very rare.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Kristoph - Lost City wrote: »

The existence of Cloud Eruption makes your post look pretty stupid.

It would be pretty stupid archer which would use Cloud Eruption in RB. Because he would empty his genie. And genie has much better a needed skills in RB than using as chi gainer.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · May 2010

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear wrote: »

because not many wizards have enough phys resistance and HP to tank hits. cheap archers > cheap wizards.

same to the "common sense" that archers have higher DPS than wizards. in theory wizards are able to deal over 50% damage over time than any archer but these wizards are very, very rare.

DPS doesn't matter in FC. What matter is the AOE power.
And Archer needs a much better refined weapon to keep up barrage DPS with a wizard's DB. Demon barrage changes that and basically brings both classes on even ground.
Cheap archers>cheap wizards until 90 ...let's say 92. At 95 there is no comparison cheap wizard>>>cheap archer.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It would be pretty stupid archer which would use Cloud Eruption in RB. Because he would empty his genie. And genie has much better a needed skills in RB than using as chi gainer.

well, we were talking about FC right? so Cloud I think is safe to be used. If you die in FC because of a pull where you couldn't use your genie to survive, you just suck.

In RB any non-lobotomized archer should have a pair of fists (even a low lvl ones) to normal attk the eye between waves if the mana aura is not up or not high enough or he wants to save arrows or whatever the reason.

ps: double post ffs

Dralighte - Harshlands · May 2010

On the other hand, I do the part of secondary healer on General Wurlord so often that I thought about stacking more -channeling gear. People are happy because getting 2 clerics in one squad is really hard.

Cleric (BB) with a wizard (spam heal) can do it easely. We dont really need 2 clerics

Kristoph - Lost City · May 2010

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

It would be pretty stupid archer which would use Cloud Eruption in RB. Because he would empty his genie. And genie has much better a needed skills in RB than using as chi gainer.

Like what? What could an archer possibly need a genie for if the squad isn't full of idiots? You shouldn't need domain/tree of protection/etc. Holy Path maybe but that's a luxury and can still be used if you get a decent genie. My BM has a genie with a few skills good in instances with 75 MAG, and it works fine.

If you have any intention of being competent in instances like gv and frost you'll make a genie with a lot of VIT/MAG and skills like earthflame, holy path, domain, cloud eruption, tree of protection, earthquake, etc. Slightly different for different classes ofcourse.

MarshelTriga - Heavens Tear · May 2010

Ok so I sorta skipped most of dialog, i read something about RB
Well in Rb there are mobs that reflect damage o.O so that a zhen aoe like DB would be a squad saver :P cause no one else can fight :O unless archer metal aoes, but CD is too long to be effective. So ha

so im going with your point :P Wizzie cannot be replaced
Also bonus beans for rainbow squad xD
Btw im still confused, TB count as Rainbow anyways?

Linwiz - Lost City · May 2010

MarshelTriga - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ok so I sorta skipped most of dialog, i read something about RB
Well in Rb there are mobs that reflect damage o.O so that a zhen aoe like DB would be a squad saver :P cause no one else can fight :O unless archer metal aoes, but CD is too long to be effective. So ha so im going with your point :P Wizzie cannot be replaced
Also bonus beans for rainbow squad xD
Btw im still confused, TB count as Rainbow anyways?

No a rainbow is still the original 6 and it should stay that way

Adroit - Lost City · May 2010

MarshelTriga - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ok so I sorta skipped most of dialog, i read something about RB
Well in Rb there are mobs that reflect damage o.O so that a zhen aoe like DB would be a squad saver :P cause no one else can fight :O unless archer metal aoes, but CD is too long to be effective. So ha so im going with your point :P Wizzie cannot be replaced
Also bonus beans for rainbow squad xD
Btw im still confused, TB count as Rainbow anyways?

I'm pretty sure there are no reflect mobs in delta xD

Titan_itachi - Raging Tide · May 2010

lol first of this is psychic stun info out of http://ecatomb.net/ its level 59 skill called earth vector the skill has 1 sec channel time and 1 sec cast time and takes 1 spark with 20 sec cool down time .psychic has 3 aoe that dont need any chi ,also someone mentioned hail storm all i can say about him is plz put a real aoe out there hail storm is equal or a little stronger than gush .as for pvp in tw i have to agree but on pk or duel not really there was a topic on genral forums about soul burn thats what we use in 1 vs 1 pvp or on a class with high dps and the greatest thing about it is that it can drop a fist bm as fast as he hit and the best is it works for all skills and normal attacks even if it wasnt against u also being able to increase cleric or tank healing ability and increase the charm cool down time in pvp has its uses . in pvp also soul of silent and soul of vengeance can help alot on tank in pvp and tw when he is a cata puller as for our baisc skills equal i hate to list all this but i have to for all the blind eyes out there

Aqua Impact Level 10
Range 28.5 Meters
Mana 141
Channel 0.5 seconds
Cast 1.5 seconds
Cooldown 3.0 seconds
Weapon Soulsphere

Requisite Cultivation Spiritual Initiate
Deals a damage equals to you basic magical attack plus
100% gear attack and another
1372.6 Water damage.
Has a 50% chance to slow target by 40%.
Lasts for 8.0 secon

Spirit Blast Level 10
Range 28.5 Meters
Mana 144
Channel 0.6 seconds
Cast 1.4 seconds
Cooldown 3.0 seconds
Weapon Soulsphere

Requisite Cultivation Spiritual Initiate
Deals a damage equals to you basic magical attack plus
100% gear attack and another
2043.6 Earth damage.

Pyrogram Level 10
Range 28.5meters
Mana 141
Channel 1.5 seconds
Cast 0.8 seconds
Cooldown 3.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Magic Instruments

Requisite Cultivation Spiritual Initiate
Using the force of the Raging Flame, cast out onto the enemy a
blazing pyrogram. Inflicts Fire damage equal to 100% of
weapon damage plus base magic damage plus 1379.6.

Gush Level 10
Range 28.5meters
Mana 144
Channel 1.0 seconds
Cast 1.0 seconds
Cooldown 3.0 seconds
Weapon Unarmed, Magic Instruments

Requisite Cultivation Spiritual Initiate
Force a powerful Water column to spew up from the ground
causing enemies to suffer Water damage equal to base magic
damage plus 100% of weapon damage plus 1372.6.
Has a 92% chance so slow enemy's speed by 40% for 8.0 seconds.

u can see that Spirit Blast does more damage than pyro or gush .stone rain has 2 sec channel and 1.4 cast along with 6 sec cool down and thats without black voodoo which psychic use most of the time black voodoo = 22 attack level so i have to say that our basic skills are not equal .
PS: just because u think ur class is the best doesnt mean it isb:chuckle

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver · May 2010

MarshelTriga - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Ok so I sorta skipped most of dialog, i read something about RB
Well in Rb there are mobs that reflect damage o.O so that a zhen aoe like DB would be a squad saver :P cause no one else can fight :O unless archer metal aoes, but CD is too long to be effective. So ha so im going with your point :P Wizzie cannot be replaced
Also bonus beans for rainbow squad xD
Btw im still confused, TB count as Rainbow anyways?

Did you know that reflect only reflects melee dmg? And an archers attacks are ranged (so not melee). An archer can just stay in BoA during the reflect mobs.

@the guy who needs to learn interpuction (Titan_itachi.
Gratz on a little higher constand on the basic skils.
To bad the wizzy weapons have a little more weapon dmg than your spheres, equalling out or even pulling wizzy dmg higher than TB dmg
(ze sphere, ze glaive, ze mag sword:3)

EDIT: And when did we make the jump from AoE powa in FC to AoE powa in TW? In TW a wizzy simply 1shots that big bad catasquad with 1 AoE

Kristoph - Lost City · May 2010

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver wrote: »

In TW a wizzy simply 1shots that big bad catasquad with 1 AoE

loludumb? in tw a psy is probably more useful than a wizard for anti cata. Can slow their charm and actually stop them with a decent stun. Can also make BMs kill themselves.

Then again, wouldn't expect some lv8x to know anything about tw.

Titan_itachi - Raging Tide · May 2010

lol ok the sphere magic attack is 785-1062 ,the glaive magic attack is 739-1108 and the sword magic attack is 831-1016 b:laugh are u kidding or something the glaive here is like the axes for melee classes low base magic attack but high max magic attack while the sword is like fists high base magic attack but low max magic attack and our soul sphere is something in between to see it better

magic sword 831-1016
soul sphere 785- 1062
glaive 739-1108

clear enough b:chuckle
and @ Sirrobert the hole weapon thing is epic fail b:bye

Lyzzern - Lost City · May 2010

Aquagirl - Raging Tide wrote: »

It's all about loving it or not.
I love my wizard and I'll keep playing it.

+1

I HAVE 10 CHARS DAMMIT b:angry

Xegeth - Dreamweaver · May 2010

@Kristoph: Hard to say. Psys sure have useful effects, but as a powerful DD you get targeted a lot, and there the overall surviveability of a fully buffed wizard compared to a psychic factors in. Sure you can use skills like white vodoo or will of the psychic, but that either cuts your damage or uses up sparks. While adding multiple wizards to a defense squad maximized damage, multiple psys become redundant effect wise. As for stun, I'd rather have a bm rush in. Not saying psys are useless, not at all, but the choice whether to use powerful two spark aoes or break through a barbs charm with sutra is quite nice. I'd say "cleric, bm, barb, wiz, wiz, psy" would be a good example for a good anti cata squad. It's about combining the effects to maximize efficiency, not choosing one over the other, in my opinion.

@Wizards not wanted at Raging Tide server: That server opened up when the Tideborn expansion was released, half of the people rolled fishies there. No wonder some of the best equipped people are psys and no wonder people are discovering their uses there. I got a feeling your server needs some decent wizzies, both equipment and skillwise...

Adroit - Lost City · May 2010

Xegeth - Dreamweaver wrote: »

"cleric, bm, barb, wiz, wiz, psy" would be a good example for a good anti cata squad.

Uhmm, barb is only good for barb buff.. which in any real TW have barb base buffers.. so they dont need to be in a defense party. You NEEEEEEEEED a veno in defense squads.. not only is their nix great for hunting down EP's.. but the purge is AMAZING (not even mentioning amp.. which is also really good).

Xegeth - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Why did I forget to put a veno in there *facepalm* Yea, barb was only for getting a fully buffed squad.. Exchanging barb with veno is ofc the right thing to do. So "BM, Cleric, Veno, Wiz, Wiz, Psy". But to be honest I had squads with three wiz killing cata squads so fast that I didn't really see the need of a psy there.

Maestro - Raging Tide · May 2010

One thing Titan seems to have forgotten to mention is the psy cast time. Cast time, unlike channeling, can not be reduced. From my lesser understanding of relative endgame gear, having 30-40% channeling isn't to far fetched. So, if you do the math based off of having 30% channeling, a pyrogram will take 2.375 seconds, gush 1.7 seconds, and (Non sage) stone rain at 2.8 seconds. Just a note, this is a relatively conservative estimate, based on channeling being almost an inherent factor in gear, not the focus or even a secondary objective. Compared to a psy with 30% channeling, his aqua impact would take 1.675 seconds to cast, a much smaller lowering of the overall time. Their spirit blast would take 1.82 seconds to cast, and, in comparison, to our earth spell means it is 1 second slower (In non sage form, and being about .7 seconds slower in sage form), but including double the weapon damage % (200%) with 100 more damage base.

Your attack buff, black voodoo, weakens you, which in the position of being a DD is a negative. Wizards have defensive skills that help us without hurting us. Distance shrink, Elemental Shell (Yes I do actually use this from time to time lol), and Stone barrier. I won't get into stuns, seals, and sleeps, since both classes seem to have a few of those. Also, stone barrier is relatively permanent unless purged by an archer bow or venomancer, giving the advantage of a long lasting permanent defensive weapon.

Your 2 spark ultimate attack skill, is in all senses, laughable.

Deals base magic damage plus 100%
of weapon damage plus 3461.7
Earth damage to all targets within 6 meters.
Has a 85% chance to Stun enemies for 6.0 seconds.

100% of weapon damage and 3461.7 Weapon damage? That is equivalent to a poke in the world of endgame, when weapon damage starts to kick and give that extra boost. Let's compare it to the wizard 2 spark ultimate,

All enemies 12.0 meters around the target dealing Earth
damage equal to base magic attack plus 500% of weapon damage plus
8400.4. Has a 95% chance to stun all enemies for 6.0 seconds.

Note how it has 400% more weapon damage and 5,000 more base damage. The stun also has a 10% higher chance of hitting, the only advantage you have is a shorter channel time, but if I am going to use 2 sparks, I would prefer something that does damage and just doesn't work as a chi drain. I don't mind spending 4 sparks to sutra cast that spell, and still doing more damage than two consecutive Earth Vectors, also 6 meter vs 12 meter AoE.

Not mentioning undine since psys can leach it off a wizard, so its a non-factor in this discussion.

Adroit - Lost City · May 2010

Xegeth - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Why did I forget to put a veno in there *facepalm* Yea, barb was only for getting a fully buffed squad.. Exchanging barb with veno is ofc the right thing to do. So "BM, Cleric, Veno, Wiz, Wiz, Psy". But to be honest I had squads with three wiz killing cata squads so fast that I didn't really see the need of a psy there.

ya I think there are many different squads that could work. I've always thought a sin would be good to have for defense.. ability to see another sin pulling a cata, obviously the crazy control skills to slow or stop a cata party, and **** clerics would be awesome. Just kinda depends on whats available from a faction. But ya im sure ur party would do pretty well against most cata squads

King_Solomon - Heavens Tear · May 2010

I also agree venos are better than barbs as they represent a higher threat as DD and also they can keep 2 distant targets busy for a little while, unlike bms.

There aren't many wizards around so I used to team with archers instead. They're pretty good with killing clerics.

Sirrobert - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

Uhmm, barb is only good for barb buff.. which in any real TW have barb base buffers.. so they dont need to be in a defense party. You NEEEEEEEEED a veno in defense squads.. not only is their nix great for hunting down EP's.. but the purge is AMAZING (not even mentioning amp.. which is also really good).

Can you explain the base buffer barbs? You got me abit confused there. How can a barb buf random people, since theyr buf is a squad buf. Or would every respawning person have to squad him?

Xegeth - Dreamweaver · May 2010

No, they actually need to resquad, which means it needs good coordination in vent. Since there is just a certain number of barbless squads, you can pretty much have one barb for like 3 squads or something and invite him whenever a squad needs rebuffs. It's way more complicated than clerics and tbh I'm not a big friend of base buffer barbs... Just buffing a defence squad before the start of tw is much easier tho. But everytime someone dies/gets purged it becomes dfficult.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · May 2010

difficult, but it could change the tide.
For this to work you need people that know what to do, when to do it and how to do it. Basically, you need pros.
For me in the hard TWs that I've been in , having a barb buff was the diff between 8-10 kills or 5 kills before death. Might not sound like a huge diff, but every dead opponent lessens the pressure on the rest of the guild. If each in my guild can kill 2-3 more before he dies the faith of the whole TW can change.
This is why, in TW I value people that know how to DD and also how to stay alive. Staying alive means buffs, means chi, means destabilizing the other faction's plan. Dying in a 1v1 just because I took out X or Y CSwhor won't help anyone.

Xegeth - Dreamweaver · May 2010

I absolutely agree, Ursa. For a wizard in TW it is important to know when to fight back and when to run. If you die you have to build new chi, get buffs, reorganize, go back to fighting etc. It eats up time and ressources. Fighting back that archer that stunned you out of nowhere just isn't worth it most of the time...

Btw: Do I see you in TW today, would be the first time we "draw wands" together. b:chuckle

SurferGirl - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Xegeth - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I absolutely agree, Ursa. For a wizard in TW it is important to know when to fight back and when to run. If you die you have to build new chi, get buffs, reorganize, go back to fighting etc. It eats up time and ressources. Fighting back that archer that stunned you out of nowhere just isn't worth it most of the time...

Btw: Do I see you in TW today, would be the first time we "draw wands" together. b:chuckle

its ok u guys dont have to tw today ^^ i got my hands full as it is

Xegeth - Dreamweaver · May 2010

But but, I like to say hello to you in TW SG, you know it. b:chuckle

Borsuc - Raging Tide · May 2010

Maestro - Raging Tide wrote: »

Your 2 spark ultimate attack skill, is in all senses, laughable.

Deals base magic damage plus 100%
of weapon damage plus 3461.7
Earth damage to all targets within 6 meters.
Has a 85% chance to Stun enemies for 6.0 seconds.

You are wrong about Earth Vector.

It costs only 1 spark.
In all sense, the channeling and cast time is identical to Gush.

For a skill equivalent to Gush in cast time, but wastes only 1 spark in addition to Gush...

Just remember next time you gush someone, and you have 1 spark to begin with, imagine you can stun them for 6 secs with 85% certainty... Scratch that, not "someone", but everyone within 8 meters. b:cute

Do you know the closest spell we can compare this one with (being an extremely fast AOE and all that)? Hailstorm.

This is the 2 spark ultimate FYI:

Red Tide
Range 28.5 Meters
Mana 516
Channel 1.8 seconds
Cast 1.2 seconds
Cooldown 30.0 seconds
Weapon Soulsphere

Requisite Cultivation Transcendent
Deals base magic damage plus 200%
of weapon damage plus 6295.8
Water damage to all targets within 8 meters.
Has a 80% chance to cause them to bleed
for damage equals to your Soulforce over 9 seconds.

Costs two Sparks

Now this would actually be more comparable to Hailstorm except that it uses 2 sparks -- because, as you can see, the channel and casting time is identical.

Just how fast is it? Almost twice as fast as BIDS as total cast/channel time (our fastest ulti). Of course, I haven't taken in account -channeling gear... because that's not the skill itself.

FYI "base magic damage" is around 600% weapon damage at endgame (if you have 500 mag), so "500% weapon damage" is not that much, not even double that.

If we factor this in, the psychic ulti has 800% weapon damage, while BIDS has 1100% weapon damage. Doesn't seem so powerful in comparison anymore does it?

Also I'm not sure if bleed even has PvP reduction. In that case an endgame psychic can bleed with this spell for 35k b:chuckle

Xegeth - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Yea, tell us more about weapon damage in skills being non factor the next time you compare a cleric's tempest, a veno's nova and a wizards bids damage wise. Not only that, wiz have three 2 spark ultimates to adapt to different situations in group pvp. Yea I know, you said it often enough, wizards channeling is slow. Who cares? If you play correctly you get your ultis off in TW, I promise you. And why would bleed not suffer any damage reduction? It's a bug on the pet skill flesh ream, all other bleed effects work accurately, so it's just speculation from your side.

There are advantages psychics have over wizards, but don't come and try to make a psy look better in every aspect, even when it is two spark aoes. You just make yourself look biased and stupid.

200% weapon damage on a two spark aoe? That is the same as stone rain (costs no chi, sage version channels in 1.6 seconds). And I can assure you that my ults hurt way, way more. Endgame weapon damage factors in, the more you refine your weapon and the better rings you get. 200%.. Even clerics get double that... And by the way, every bit damage counts, because it is very important to be able to bypass charms. You cannot bypass charms with bleed, can you?

You create totally weird connections:
"Just remember next time you gush someone, and you have 1 spark to begin with, imagine you can stun them for 6 secs with 85% certainty."

To be honest I's rather kite that barb a little more and get more chi to be able to break through his charm.

One more thing: Ignoring channeling gear because "it's not the skill itself" is invalid. You cannot cut channeling gear from the equation because the very way the "skill itself" is designed makes the channeling gear any endgame caster gets less efficient on a psychic than on a wiz. Facts do not vanish because you ignore them.

/Edit: My assumption that there are too many fishes and no/few factor wizards on RT seems kinda correct... I saw that coming the very day the server opened, because it was at the same time the expansion came out. Pretty messed up.

Ursa - Dreamweaver · May 2010

Xegeth - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I absolutely agree, Ursa. For a wizard in TW it is important to know when to fight back and when to run. If you die you have to build new chi, get buffs, reorganize, go back to fighting etc. It eats up time and ressources. Fighting back that archer that stunned you out of nowhere just isn't worth it most of the time...

Btw: Do I see you in TW today, would be the first time we "draw wands" together. b:chuckle

that has such a .... connotation to it...b:chuckle
I hope so, but I have no idea if I can be at home by TW today.
Tomorrow and Sunday it's another story, but today...difficult.

Borsuc - Raging Tide wrote: »

You are wrong about Earth Vector.

...

and you are about everything else.
Someone described Psys very nice to me a while ago: The Jack of all trades, the master of none.
You're missing/ignoring so many factors I'm not even start wasting my time explaining anything. It's not the first time you prove you just have no idea what you're talking about.
But I'm going to tell you this : my lvl 11 BIDS and BT channel in 2.6 seconds, my lvl 11 MS in 3.3. I can shave off easily another 0.5-0.6 sec from that cast...

Still a prestiege class

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