New Item: Perfect Horn UPDATE

ROFL TW is happening right now....and lets just say I've seen quite a few messages disguised in cyan made to look like fac chat saying things like "TW is off," and other junk like that.

i have a ss but i need to figure out how to get the dam thing on here.....

While it's nice to see that at least something will eventually be done about the horns, this problem shows me yet again PWI's seeming unwillingness to take responsibility for disrupting the game. Like, "Oops, that wasn't intended. Let's ask for/pay a few GMs to work on the weekend specifically to monitor WC and warn/ban the horn spammers."

Sure, a solution has been posted in the OP but imo it's a rather lazy one. I don't mean to come off as rude by saying that, it's just that if you actually want to keep people happy, it's not hard to come up with an idea or two beyond what has been presented to us.

Having some GMs monitoring WC after this happened (until they're removed from the boutique) would have been the most basic thing to do. They can tell us the GMs are overworked/overloaded or w/e but really, this is not something the playerbase should have to consider nor be told is the reason why it can't be done. They're the businesspeople here - sort it out.

I actually left the game I was playing before PWI due to the introduction of an item similar to the horns that would lag people out and was incredibly invasive. I've spent what I consider to be a decent about of cash on this game for fashion, mounts etc. and have no qualms about writing that off and looking for another game, however I'm staying now only for the friends I've made and for the cool community.

Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I see things from a different point of view. I see the horn as a beneficial item as it allows a better depiction of your ideas and objectives and capturing the required attention to it.

And of course, the saying "With great powers come great responsibilities" will certainly be applied to this scenario. How is it the fault of the developers in any way that a few certain abusers decided to misuse the item than it's intended purposed?

The abusers stand at a minor percentage of the total pwi population and on top of it, it's not frequent. Does it justify the dedication of manpower (possible rotating shifts) to monitor the chat and what conditions must be met to justify a ban?

Please also take into consideration that different people have different meanings of 'abuse'. And should they 'solve' a problem by creating another 'problem (flood of ban threads) and will they be viewed as a 'commies', restricting people on the usage of the 'perfect horn' ?

Ultimately, it's the individual moral compass that guides them in life or in game.

I do agree that it's probably only a small percentage of people who are being silly with horn usage, but however small it may be, it affects every single person in the game, whether they see it as a bad thing, good thing or just don't care.

It used to be that there was a quiet but obvious GM presence in game, and WC spamming was not as bad as it is now. My earlier suggestion was not to come down heavily on horn users and ban them for the smallest infractions but to warn/ban them the way people used to be for abusing WC, which, with the way thngs are currently in the game, could possibly equate to a fair share of bans.

If banning those who are obviously taking it too far leads people to view them as commies, I'd imagine it would be coming from that small percentage of people who are abusing the horns. I'd hope the majority of the community wouldn't consider it to be that extreme but rather a genuine attempt to make the game environment more pleasant for all.

Also, if the horn spamming is not happening regularly in your server then I'm happy for you guys. I've already blacklisted a number of people who were consistantly spamming and rubbing it in our faces that their messages are seen by all. I won't be surprised if it gets worse over the weekend considering any tickets won't be looked into til Monday, if people submit any about spammers.

About justifying having staff dedicating time to this issue - in my opinion, this is not up to us. Enough people are finding their gameplay interrupted by this that I would expect something more to be done about it. What PW has to work out behind the scenes to achieve this is their business. That is to say, if there is a problem that I am in some way responsible for, I fix it and don't bother the customer with the details.

I don't think I'm getting my point across very well and am not saying the customer is always right. I mean to say that PW is already doing a good job of already basically forcing customers to deal with problems they shouldn't have to, permanently. Cleric mag def buff, rubberbanding glitch, getting booted to 1k. Things like this affect gameplay and unless you leave the game, you must find a way to just deal with it and incorporate them into your gameplay and allow for them to happen. I disagree that we should again have to either just deal with it or not play the game until the horns are removed when GM presence (unless there are other ideas apart from blacklisting) would go a long way to satisfying a fair share of disgruntled people.

PW could at least try. Yes, they're being removed soon, and yes, people are stocking up on horns to sell after they are taken out of the boutique. Taking horns out of the boutique won't stop people using them, therefore as mentioned earlier, imo simply taking them out is a lazy solution.

I respect your views on this but tbh I don't think there's much more I can add as I've said all I have to say really.

What's the url to submit a ticket? Can't find the link anywhere just now after the webpage redesign.

The chat colors make it easier to see who's talking in which chat.
Horn users abuse that fact making their color the same as factionchat or whisper. I see myself looking everytime these colors pop up. I even scrolled up one time cause I thought I missed a whisper. In my opinion, deceiving people to get attention is criminal.

JollyJaguar - Sanctuary wrote: »

The chat colors make it easier to see who's talking in which chat.
Horn users abuse that fact making their color the same as factionchat or whisper. I see myself looking everytime these colors pop up. I even scrolled up one time cause I thought I missed a whisper. In my opinion, deceiving people to get attention is criminal.

I was thinking...what if they changed the way you choose the color to a list of colors? If there were a lot of options people wouldn't care as much, but they could take out common chat white, faction chat blue, squad chat green, whisper blue/purple, and system message red, and give other color options instead.

it is quite possible for a GM to monitor the chat ingame- it was done when my family first joined the game back in October of 08, where it was a big selling point to us to see foulmouthed and abusive players disciplined openly, according to a system that had been posted on the Support section of the website. Sadly that is gone, along with all discipline ingame. there is **no** reason why this cannot be started again. its not as if PWI has a huge corporate office to pay for, with tons of staff. so far as i have seen, the 'office' is in someone's home, in the SF area of California, as can be seen in this Google pic:



so. with a low office overhead bill, physical maint low, just need room for the computers for the servers and whatnot (dont know about that part), that leaves us with how many staff?
we know of Kantork (sl!), FrankieRay,BearClaw Arayannamage, Hawk, DarkPanda16....and these are just the ones for this game! there are many for the other games, that used to be here. but the point is that there are *more than enough GM/Mod/whatever title you choose to give them, that could have the game open on their PC while they are working on whatever, monitoring the WC and the PeeHorn chat, and with their magic GM buttons slap the nastards in the mouth for language, impersonation, harassment, spamming and all the other things that are driving us bananas. most folks who work with PCs are good at multitasking and this would NOT be a difficult thing to do. So why not bring this back, if they are going to insist on having the freaking horn again?

Giodia - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I have to say that I did not elaborate enough on my view points and thus, leading to misunderstandings. I do apologize for that.

My perspective on GM having to monitor chats, is just a waste of time. Some silly users of the perfect horn will probably find some means to challenge the GM on the disciplinary actions imposed onto themselves.

While the PWI community is sensible at large (unless their ideology is being challenged), majority of them will view it as a just punishment for acting without restraint. However, there will always be other individuals who will write off this game based on the actions of it's administrators.

The question of balance is indeed hanging on a thin thread on this matter. The action by the company has been appropriate so far and I will explain why:

1. No disciplinary actions on abusers

(The company ultimately has to answer to those users who have spent cash on that item, whatever actions have been taken against the client. Bad experience will yield less profit)

2. No GM presence detected so far on chat monitoring

(PW trust it's users to be sensible human beings, though not always logical as seen in this incident. If GM now monitor chat channels, would it indicate that a certain degree of 'freedom' is now imposed in-game? How liberal that one can be with 'freedom of speech'? And by whose standard of 'freedom of speech' should the GM based it on?)

I would like to stress that there are many different levels of acceptance and tolerance levels out there. What you may viewed as a disdain may be acceptable by another individual.

In a nutshell, whether a GM is monitoring chat or not, or serving notices to abusers is not gonna work since there was no standard behavioral acceptance to based it on. If the company comes out with it's set of behavioral guide, there will always be someone who will resist it, being a human trait.

Since there will always be abnormally present in human equation, 'controlling the infection' (removal of the cash shop item) until the 'virus' is unable to 'replicate' itself (item eventually used up from player base and makes blacklisting of individuals an easier task, since they are limited to some extent), do seems to be a sound and logical approach.

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear wrote: »

it is quite possible for a GM to monitor the chat ingame- it was done when my family first joined the game back in October of 08, where it was a big selling point to us to see foulmouthed and abusive players disciplined openly, according to a system that had been posted on the Support section of the website. Sadly that is gone, along with all discipline ingame. there is **no** reason why this cannot be started again.

It was easy to monitor in '08, when the game first opened, before there were 4-5 games for the company to handle and PWI had increased membership.

its not as if PWI has a huge corporate office to pay for, with tons of staff. so far as i have seen, the 'office' is in someone's home, in the SF area of California, as can be seen in this Google pic:

-snip for space-

so. with a low office overhead bill, physical maint low, just need room for the computers for the servers and whatnot (dont know about that part), that leaves us with how many staff?

I highly doubt that's the actual office. The image could be old, or the address off. But for you to think that a company that's running multiple games and making money at them works in someone's house is absolutely astounding, to be honest. You can't believe everything that you see just because it might validate your belief, think of it objectively. How would it be physically possible for all the multiple servers for multiple games, as well as the staff for each game to work in a place that small?

we know of Kantork (sl!), FrankieRay,BearClaw Arayannamage, Hawk, DarkPanda16....and these are just the ones for this game! there are many for the other games, that used to be here. but the point is that there are *more than enough GM/Mod/whatever title you choose to give them, that could have the game open on their PC while they are working on whatever, monitoring the WC and the PeeHorn chat, and with their magic GM buttons slap the nastards in the mouth for language, impersonation, harassment, spamming and all the other things that are driving us bananas. most folks who work with PCs are good at multitasking and this would NOT be a difficult thing to do. So why not bring this back, if they are going to insist on having the freaking horn again?

Aryannamage is not a GM. Hawk is not a GM. And for you to decide for the company what they have enough people to do is a little presumptuous, don't you think? Do you work there? Obviously you don't even know what their headquarters looks like, since you assumed it was a private home. You don't know what they do, or what they have time to do, no matter how you try to pretend that you do.

Side note: FoxRunning, you never seem particularly happy with this game. Either it's the images, the fashion, the way people speak, or the way the GMs work, it's rare that you have something positive to say, even if I do agree with you on some points that you bring up. But...if you're so unhappy with this game like you come off on the forums, why do you still play? I play this game because I enjoy it, but you don't seem to enjoy it in the least, and are constantly saying you're not going to play/spend money, and you won't allow your children to play/spend money unless things are fixed. There are plenty of games, some that are more children-friendly and without the problems that you find so horrible in this game. Why not try one of those? That wasn't meant with any malice, that's an honest question. I've met a lot of people that talk about how horrible this game is, how much they dislike it, then keep playing, and I don't get it at all.

comments inserted in appropriate places:

Aadi - Lost City wrote: »

It was easy to monitor in '08, when the game first opened, before there were 4-5 games for the company to handle and PWI had increased membership.

....as important as it is to all of us to have things spam free, the 'powers that be' should budget it in, and stop pretending it was never in the game to begin with.

I highly doubt that's the actual office. The image could be old, or the address off. But for you to think that a company that's running multiple games and making money at them works in someone's house is absolutely astounding, to be honest. You can't believe everything that you see just because it might validate your belief, think of it objectively. How would it be physically possible for all the multiple servers for multiple games, as well as the staff for each game to work in a place that small?

....i thought it odd myself, especially considering that EA is almost across the street from them. but that is the official address, when you Google for it.



Aryannamage is not a GM. Hawk is not a GM. And for you to decide for the company what they have enough people to do is a little presumptuous, don't you think? Do you work there? Obviously you don't even know what their headquarters looks like, since you assumed it was a private home. You don't know what they do, or what they have time to do, no matter how you try to pretend that you do.

....so what? they work for the company, and its simple enough to have them take care of the job. just change titles/add title, and add to their PC whatever is necessary that enables the GM to interact with players, along with the old pie chart of infractions and penalties that has disappeared from the site. as for presumptious- if you go to Walmart, and dont like how things go there, when things are changed for the worst, do you just take it and say nothing? I am a long time service dog owner, and as such, we are used to standing up for our rights, and to writing to companies who think they can sneak in changes that make using their services too difficult. I have learned self advocation is a powerful tool in the hands of the consumer....and I have been a consumer of PWI since nearly the beginning of open beta.

Side note: FoxRunning, you never seem particularly happy with this game. Either it's the images, the fashion, the way people speak, or the way the GMs work, it's rare that you have something positive to say, even if I do agree with you on some points that you bring up. But...if you're so unhappy with this game like you come off on the forums, why do you still play? I play this game because I enjoy it, but you don't seem to enjoy it in the least, and are constantly saying you're not going to play/spend money, and you won't allow your children to play/spend money unless things are fixed. There are plenty of games, some that are more children-friendly and without the problems that you find so horrible in this game. Why not try one of those? That wasn't meant with any malice, that's an honest question. I've met a lot of people that talk about how horrible this game is, how much they dislike it, then keep playing, and I don't get it at all.

How we raise our children is in a moral, polite way that is obviously something that few here can comprehend. We live in a small country town, where people are courteous to each other, who care about each other, a kind of place that few players here would comprehend. So it is that to see the lack of morals, courtesy, manners and such ingame is so shocking to us. Yes, we have tried other games...we came here, and fell in love with the beauty, the kind of characters that we can play, and with the -then- ingame moderation and interaction with the GMs. We now have a great deal of time, money and emotional investment in PWI, and care a great deal about it, likely more than most players. Our children and myself have various disabilties that make gaming an important part of our day, and the world of PWI is our favourite, our 'home online', so to speak. No other game comes even close to what we have found here, and we **do not** want to leave for any reason. If you feel we only post to complain, you have a narrow minded memory, is all i can say, because we have posted on many subjects. It is just that this thread is on a topic that we feel very strongly about, and know that if this does not work out, we may be forced to leave.

Speaking for myself, that would be a disaster...i have severe depression, and a number of physical disabilities, and for me, my veno gives me a freedom and fun that of course not to be found in the real world. another aspect i love is that in a way, playing as a veno is like playing, in a superior manner, an old fave, Pokemon. So this is a very serious matter to me, and to our family as well. I do realise that most here are children, who have not yet learned so many of the important life skills, and that is in part why i often sound cranky in posts...its frustration speaking. I just dont want this world to be ruined by these uneducated, rude children, ruined for us all and especially for our family.

I dont expect you to understand or approve of what i have said....few would. But when i am asked, i answer and answer honestly.

@FoxRunning; You assume your children see things the exact same way you do. They might tell you that or you assume that (as I am) but children are normally 80% different around friends and on their own than around family. b:surrender That's just how I know it being young myself. And I'm sorry for just bringing this up. Its been bothering me slightly for awhile.

Anyways Yay for Horns being removed.

Graviora - Dreamweaver wrote: »

@FoxRunning; You assume your children see things the exact same way you do. They might tell you that or you assume that (as I am) but children are normally 80% different around friends and on their own than around family. b:surrender That's just how I know it being young myself. And I'm sorry for just bringing this up. Its been bothering me slightly for awhile.

Anyways Yay for Horns being removed.

Ahem, I am FoxRunning's daughter and yes, I have to say that I see this situation the same way as she does. The perfect horns are spamming trash, things that kids don't, *really* don't need to see. And what does children being different around their friends than they are at home have to do with anything? Personally I'm exactly the same. :P And one other thing... even if a decision is made by the parents that the kids disagree with, if its not wrong, not a sin to abide by that decision, the kids have no right to disobey, regardless of whether or not they don't like what their parents have said. Its just common sense... obey your parents.

Here's some background...

My parents never monitored my activities - actually once, my mom listened to what I did, and when I assured her I wasn't depressive because I listened to some dark songs, she left me alone.

But they taught me respect, and to never let myself getting walked on by other people.

I didn't grow up completely shielded from violence and bad language. In fact, seeing it encouraged me not to become like that. Call it common sense.

The internet is well... the internet. It's anonymous, and encourages people to be asses because there's no real consequences - your character or account gets banned, not you physically (in some cases, your IP does...) So most people won't give much of a damn, and the lack of common sense shows.

I may not want to "suffer" from the incredibly annoying spam some people come up with, but it won't turn me into an angry, violent person for that matter. I can get agressive, I'll admit (try to insult me or my friends and be serious about it, see how long I stand that ****), but because I'm exposed to it doesn't automatically make me one of them.

Even though the amount of spam annoys me. And I'm on DW server, which AFAIK isn't as horrible as some other servers. Most of my annoyance comes from the fact it's horribly distracting and I already have a low attention span anyways.

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear wrote: »

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How we raise our children is in a moral, polite way that is obviously something that few here can comprehend. We live in a small country town, where people are courteous to each other, who care about each other, a kind of place that few players here would comprehend. So it is that to see the lack of morals, courtesy, manners and such ingame is so shocking to us. Yes, we have tried other games...we came here, and fell in love with the beauty, the kind of characters that we can play, and with the -then- ingame moderation and interaction with the GMs. We now have a great deal of time, money and emotional investment in PWI, and care a great deal about it, likely more than most players. Our children and myself have various disabilties that make gaming an important part of our day, and the world of PWI is our favourite, our 'home online', so to speak. No other game comes even close to what we have found here, and we **do not** want to leave for any reason. If you feel we only post to complain, you have a narrow minded memory, is all i can say, because we have posted on many subjects. It is just that this thread is on a topic that we feel very strongly about, and know that if this does not work out, we may be forced to leave.

Speaking for myself, that would be a disaster...i have severe depression, and a number of physical disabilities, and for me, my veno gives me a freedom and fun that of course not to be found in the real world. another aspect i love is that in a way, playing as a veno is like playing, in a superior manner, an old fave, Pokemon. So this is a very serious matter to me, and to our family as well. I do realise that most here are children, who have not yet learned so many of the important life skills, and that is in part why i often sound cranky in posts...its frustration speaking. I just dont want this world to be ruined by these uneducated, rude children, ruined for us all and especially for our family.

I dont expect you to understand or approve of what i have said....few would. But when i am asked, i answer and answer honestly.

Fox, please note I am not trying to pick a fight with you, or to discredit what you are saying, because for the most part I do agree with you.

I do agree that I have seen quite a decline in the respectfulness/kindness of many many players here over the past few months, not to mention the 'hidden' updates from the staff of pwi. Though to be fair in every game I have played, it slowly becomes more apparent to me, that things are changing, some for the better, some for the worse, on both players, and the staff of the game. EVERY game eventually loses it's original appeal it had over the player when he OR she first started playing.

It is often hard for us all to decipher between what's actually right, and what we believe should happen, our own utopian dreams. (I am not saying you are trying to force it/your belief on us/pwi) I do miss the old days when we all really knew what was going on. I am with you when you said it is real REAL NICE to know/actually SEE things happening/rules enforced. I do know that just because we don't see anything happening it doesn't mean nothing is happening; however as I said earlier it's nice to know/see something happening. I believe that people are adapting to knowing when/how things are being handled, some will undoubtedly disagree with not only this statement, but also the punishment(s) handed out to the offenders, though I am also certain there will be people more then willing to jump to defend the game's staff/dev's.

I kind of hate to say this, but they will probably play favorite, and perhaps give lesser punishments for major cash shoppers, then to a non-cash shopper like myself. It would be bad buisness... err bad for there pocket book if they pissed of a major cash shopper by giving him or her a pretty harsh punishment, sure they may be addicted, but push the right button, and they leave forever, though the same could be said about the non-cash shopper. treat them as good as possible because if you make them mad they may not recommend a rich friend to the game. =x So I hope they are treating the offenders all the same, and perhaps as lenient as possible, depending on the situation.

There was at one time a way to hide every window, but that is/would be a nuisance to do just to avoid these unwanted comments with the horn.

One more thing, as I am sure you are aware fox, you definitely need backup on what you believe if you want to see a change in the near future.

Also few pages back people were commenting about removing things from the boutique without shutting the servers down. As Celestyna pointed out, and a forum/game moderator confirmed. They have to code it in to the servers... well coding to remove/add something into the boutique, meaning that if we see mounts added Monday night before that scheduled maintenance on Tuesday, those items were 'scheduled'/coded to come into the boutique at those times.

I doubt that even the main admin/owner of this game can just go in and delete an item from the boutique, they probably really felt no need to have one, could be real troublesome getting it back if some power hungry moderator got in and deleted a item from boutique. So it would have a lot of potential for misuse/to anger players a LOT.

Oh one more thing to end my lengthy **** post. =x It's kind of crazy some people seem to be complaining about different things about these horns. I kind of agree with both sides. They don't really need to have the comments that some of them have, and to have them show up no matter what chat I am in, is just plain sad, and ridiculous.

Thank goodness they are being removed. =x