Why do people recommend BUYING TT mats?

DeathBanana - Heavens Tear wrote: »

...wasn't this thread about TT mats?

It was but it turned into an e-peen contest of who uses more mana.

Fact is Cleric is a necessary class in most TT instances, where a mage can easily be replaced with any other DD class.

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

Aren't you forgetting casting times? That's adding another 1s for Gush, 1.4s for Stone Rain, for a total of 5 seconds for Gush/SR, 631 mana. So 126.2 MP/s.

@DeathBanana: Well, I'm an archer. Haven't you heard, we're all about the math.

I will check it. b:laugh

Ok you are right I have to add casting time. But I'm not sure if If cannot channeling another spell while previous is in casting phase. Probably not.
Gush channeling +casting time = 2s mana 256
Stone rain channeling + casting =3s mana 375
Pitfall channeling + casting =2s mana 320
undine strike channeling + casting=1.5s mana 600
Will of Phoenix channeling + casting=2s mana 445

All channeling time + casting time is 10.5s all mana is 1996/10.5=190.1/s
Demon iron heart mana spend is 200mana/s

So You spend 200 mana/s with demon iron hearth. So I spend 190.1 mana/s which is slightly less than you If you use JUST iron hearth and nothing more. If you use something else you spend a less mana than me.

hallsvaporaction wrote: »

Just to spice things up a little. xD Remember, a cleric pre-stacks the tank on tough mobs or bosses. Whereas no DD class should hit the target before the tank takes aggro. A cleric does a lot of maintenance mp spending right after a mob fight and even on the run, like filling up the HP bar of that soul transfusion lover; post battle purify and healing; recast Aegis Spirit every so often because of the game bug, etc. (Of course, that's not to say some nice wizzies won't dew someone as well.) For a cleric, the mp bleed is before battle, during battle and after battle. In a fast run, there's very little time for mp recovery. On my cleric, I don't let teammates run off to the next fight without full buffs and a full HP bar. On my wizzie, I would only dew myself after a fight if I'm playing nice to save the cleric some mp or if it's a fail cleric who won't heal me.

As for loot distribution, I vote for kicking anyone who doesn't pull their weight in the squad and equal share distribution for all that remained.

Sure I agree. But is unfair that cleric gets his expense back and I have last pick. And they telling that is for his MP burn. I just showed that my MP burn is also VERY high and it could be even much higher than cleric. Of course he is much more important than me but telling that he spend more mana so he has right to pick second is unfair.

Brigid - Harshlands wrote: »

Wait, does Demon Ironheart restore mana to the caster or the target? I assumed it was the target, since that would make more sense.

As for pulling weight... it's difficult to quantify that, really. An archer easily does the greatest amount of damage, between Sharpened Tooth Arrow and DDing. However, they've got by far the lowest cost as well. Barb does very little damage, but without one it's impossible to kill many bosses. Clerics do no damage, but their healing is just as necessary. Splitting along somewhat equal lines is nice in theory, but doesn't really work for pickup squads.

Sorry I'm not sure about this. Maybe you right then I apologize. b:thanks In that case he would spend more mana than me, just if he used iron hearth every 2s. What I never seen. But maybe in some situations it can be but not for all TT run.

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sorry I'm not sure about this. Maybe you right then I apologize. b:thanks In that case he would spend more mana than me, just if he used iron hearth every 2s. What I never seen. But maybe in some situations it can be but not for all TT run.

troll b:angry

Mumintroll - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sorry I'm not sure about this. Maybe you right then I apologize. b:thanks In that case he would spend more mana than me, just if he used iron hearth every 2s. What I never seen. But maybe in some situations it can be but not for all TT run.

Erm, Ironheart spamming is one cast every 3 seconds without channeling gear. 1s channeling, 1s cast, 1s cooldown. Cooldown matters here because it's the same spell over and over again. Not that I think a wizzie uses more mp items (pots, ticks) per run than a cleric (higher mp pool with quaff, higher mp regen rate, longer downtime between fights, etc.), but this could help your argument from the standpoint of constant mp/s bleed. b:cute

drmarley wrote: »

Demon IH costs 400 mana and it recharges every second (with -chan it isn't 2 seconds a cast but lets pretend this instance it is). That's 200 mana a second.

At 89, my herc with just 4.1k hp is able to tank nearly anything in the game which doesn't self-buff (1 or 2 hits exceed herc's hp) or debuff defense (venos can't purge their pets). I'd say it can tank 95% of the bosses I encounter.

At 90 a herc has 8952 pdef, which buffs up to 22380 pdef. Veno heal at 90 gives 485 hp + 28% of m.atk, with a 2.3 sec cycle time with 12% channel. My veno is heavy so has a rather modest 4500 m.atk unbuffed. So if I spam-heal, I'm healing 1745 hp per heal, or 759 hp/sec. If you divide out the effect of pdef, that means the max DPS a mob can do while I keep my herc alive is 5475 DPS. Most of the time I don't need to spam-heal this much (spam-healing a herc tends to be rather inefficient because of its small hp pool), but let's go with the high figure since it helps your argument.

Now let's work out the case for a barb with, say, 12k pdef. 5475 DPS to him will work out to 1263 damage/sec he takes. That means the barb needs 1263 hp/sec healed to stay alive.

Demon IH heals 1200 hp + 35% of magic attack. Say at level 90 you have 6k avg. m.atk, which goes to 7.5k with Spirit's Gift. That means each cast of IH will heal 3825 hp.

To reach 1263 hp/sec, you only need to cast IH once every 3.03 seconds. That will be more than enough to handle 95% of the fights in the game whic I can handle with my herc. While it's certainly possible to put a rock on your IH key and go afk just so you can claim 200 mana/sec, that's an extremely inefficient use of your mana since you simply don't need that much healing the vast majority of the time.

In other words, if your cleric is having problems with excess mana consumption while spam-healing IH, it's your own damn fault. You haven't figured out yet that you don't need to be casting IH that much. Don't try to pass off your inability to throttle back your IHs as needed as some type of representative average of a cleric mana consumption.

Seeing as a gold charm is running about 1.2 mil, even if you completely ignore everyone else's costs, a cleric would have to go through 2/3rds of a gold spirit charm in a single TT run to justify the cleric getting first pick of a 1 mil mat while everyone else gets 200k mats. I should also point out that with tokens costing 25k, you can get just as many mp from herb yuanxio as a gold charm for just 270k. It even works during BB. So stop trying to justify clerics getting first pick by dreaming up scenarios with unnecessarily inefficient mana use and excessively expensive mp restoration.

hallsvaporaction wrote: »

Erm, Ironheart spamming is one cast every 3 seconds without channeling gear. 1s channeling, 1s cast, 1s cooldown. Cooldown matters here because it's the same spell over and over again.

The cooldown timer ticks at the same time as the cast timer. So by the time the 1s cast timer is up, the 1s cooldown timer is also up.

hallsvaporaction wrote: »

Erm, Ironheart spamming is one cast every 3 seconds without channeling gear. 1s channeling, 1s cast, 1s cooldown. Cooldown matters here because it's the same spell over and over again. Not that I think a wizzie uses more mp items (pots, ticks) per run than a cleric (higher mp pool with quaff, higher mp regen rate, longer downtime between fights, etc.), but this could help your argument from the standpoint of constant mp/s bleed. b:cute

(higher mp pool with quaff, higher mp regen rate, longer downtime between fights, etc.)

Higher mp pool quaff doesn't matter because it doesn't have any effect on spending mana/s. Also is not really enough. You spend all mana very fast. I would spend all in 1 min. If I wanted. Higher mana reg. is only with mana shield which cannot be used on physical AOE bosses. Also if accidentally take aggro is better to have p.def shield on.

sutra then do ultimate MP waste combo.
b:sweat

even with 10% back it still can empty out a giant chunk of me MP bar lols~
b:surrender

quaff matters since triple/double spark/essential sutra gives back mp based on teh size of yer MP bar.
that be why me are always wellspring quaffed before me enter a TT and me keep it up.

not sure why clerics keep saying they need dolls,usually if our party wipes (including cleric),one of pt members leave,since u dont get timer when ur dead if party is full and inv another cleric to rez,and i love clerics not hard to find room for 2 b:cute
good thing theres alot of clerics too

oddly enough, for some reason, standard TT split rules dont apply to Ancient Evil: lethal vengance a.k.a. Belial.

for those of you that dont know, when a squad does belial, 1 person banks the mats, sells them and mails each person their split. granted this come with a certain degree of trust. but i've been in quite a few random belial squads, as generally the party starting the instance isnt built for belial.

there is never any complaints from the barb or the cleric or the subber on how they deserve more of a share of the drop value because of their class. everyone gets an equal split of the profit.

Now if someone wanted/needed the mats that dropped, they could of course buy it from the squad, simply drop the amount of coin you want to pay for the mat on the ground and pick it back up, it will be divided evenly thoughout the squad (the person buying it will get 1/6th of the coin they dropped, their equal share). what would be the reason not to do things this way?

if it is actually costing the cleric 1Mgc in coin to BB the instance, why would a cleric ever go? there is no reason why a barb should get 600k+ coins more in mats than anyone else in the squad. subs cost 70k, why cant the squad split the cost of the subs?

every class has its own expenses, everyone has to pay repairs. if you cant afford your class, re-roll.

as for venos who tank half the instance and get to pick as DD by lvl. drop squad, go find another sucker.

PWI needs a /random number generator command that spits out a random number in a system message to all nearby players in common chat range. Banker offers up most expensive item, players all use /random command, Player A rolls highest and gets the item; banker offers up next most expensive item, all players but Player A use /random command, Player B gets item and both A and B are excluded from the next 4 /randoms. Go on down the line until all players have a mat, restart from the first step again until all players have 2. Having a public, local system message prevents open scamming by people claiming to be using random number generators. This also fixes the problem of the game randomly distributing loot to everyone, sometimes leaving one person with all the juicy stuff and everyone else with klunky swords, by ensuring everyone gets one mat at a time.

Another option could be that every boss gives a Boss-specific quest drop to everyone in the party, a drop which could then be exchanged at an NPC for a random chance of the corresponding mat. (i.e. 5% chance at gold, 60% chance at green, 35% chance at ****). I actually like this idea better, because it further removes from such instances the reliance on human charity in a situation where need and desire skews behavioral attitudes.

Gasoline - Lost City wrote: »

Sometimes its faster and cheaper to just farm/grind the money and buy the mats. Unless you have a helpful guild/friends or w/e to farm with it will take ages getting a party and doing the runs.

Its really easier to go dig herb + high/mid mats sell them and buy mats or something if you dont have a fixed party to run with. Specially now when TT mats are really cheap.

Some people spend weeks trying to get help/squads and they get absolutely nothing done. If they spent half that time making money some other way they would have all the mats in no time.

This ^^.

I don't like TT runs.

Any of them.

P.S.
I even had not done any of TT quests yet because of this.

another thing is that drops sometimes suck balls. last week a bunch of us walked into 2-3 to have wurlord and the dog drop nothing. only **** we got was ape tail and lion edges - we just quit after the dog. come to think of it feng might've dropped nothing either. you really don't want to devote that much time in an instance when the drop rate is that inconsistent.

imagine hitting AE and have nothing drop.