Does -interval gear need to be balanced?

13

Comments

  • Chezedude - Dreamweaver
    Chezedude - Dreamweaver Posts: 236 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    While that's obviously true with archery weapons, and crits are definitely more useful in PvP, I'm doubtful higher dex has the edge in PvE using fist weapons. Dex increases crit rate by what, 1% every 20 dex? So every 20 dex increase damage by 1% over base.

    Every single point of str will increase damage by 0.67% over base. If you factor in fist mastery (which archers don't even get), each point of str will increase damage by 0.33% over base. Still a substantially better return rate for damage than dex.

    Here's a fist archer build posted earlier in this thread:
    http://www.pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=16562fbbb6d49eb9
    3681-4110 phys attack (3895.5 avg)
    39% crit
    Avg damage per hit = 1.39*3895.5 = 5414.7

    Here's the same build converted to BM and modified so all extra dex is shifted to str. I added demon fist mastery too, but left the archer rank8 chest to simulate demon spark being active (so nobody will say "hey he only gets 3.3 atk/sec"):
    http://www.pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=9e58c72b05bc8df2
    7716-8615 phys attack (8165.5 avg)
    28% crit
    Avg damage per hit = 1.28*8165.5 = 10451.8 (93% more than the archer)

    So you can see, the same number of points invested in str gives you a much higher return in damage for melee than the same number of points invested in dex. So my hunch is the fist BM will crush the fist archer in average damage. The primary advantage of the archer is their rank8 chest armor has -0.1 interval, making it easier (relatively speaking) for them to get to 5 atk/sec.

    The only thing I'm not sure about is how sparks will affect this, since str does not increase sparked damage while crits do. But 500% demon sparked damage over an 11% increase in crit rate is only a max 55% more damage, so I doubt it's enough to overcome the BM's 93% more damage per hit.

    That is not correct. when both are at max atk rate, both will constantly be sparked that is a huge constant increase in p atk meaning that the advantage bms have from the extra strength is reduced.

    watch in this video I can hold aggro just fine by using an apoc that gives me a little more damage. We have the exact same weapon and attack rate while sparked, both using lunar rings.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADQLLFsjoNY

    Even if I didn't use the damage apoc we still output damage that is very very close. I remember when we duoed bosses and the boss just changes aggro between us every 10 seconds. Archer's fire buff is almost as good as fist mastery.
    youtube.com/chezedude
  • MiStAiSa - Sanctuary
    MiStAiSa - Sanctuary Posts: 278 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    just confirming again that power dash does indeed increase crit rate not rage damage :)
  • Gilia - Heavens Tear
    Gilia - Heavens Tear Posts: 16 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Only thing i wanted to add...

    I've been a fist-BM since lvl9 (which in hindsight was indeed too early), and had fun with it a lot, even though getting to a decent lvl was ridiculously hard and my grinding speed indeed was one of the lowest i witnessed. I got denied all kinds of squads because back then fist-BMs apparently were epic fail. I got ridiculed for my crazy choice of weapons and now everyone and their grammy is sporting Deicides. b:surrender
    So excuse me if i simply laugh at your nerfing requests, and in turn request that essential sutra be no longer -100 channel but -33.
    Don't like my DPS? Well i don't like you one-shotting me, crazy how different builds/characters have different strengths and weaknesses, huh? b:chuckle
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  • AndyNagato - Lost City
    AndyNagato - Lost City Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Killermate - Harshlands wrote: »
    At the moment, despite of what the description says, Power Dash = extra 40% crit for 8 seconds.

    You could also do what the Archer in Heaven's Tears server did. Assassin could simply put a bit more Str and equip lunar fist after using skills that require dagger.

    ATM, assassin can't reach 5.0 attack rate even with TT99 set bonuses. Only a matter of time though, soon enough there will be rank8 sins to confirm if the lvl100 weapon gives interval. Or possibly someone could get lucky recasting and get a Nirvana dagger with interval in it as well.

    BM will have highest DPS for quite a while. Only thing that can top it is if assassins can reach 5.0 attack rate using daggers.
    this is impossible if you knew anything about attack speed; a full set of -interval gear + .1 on a weapon would yield -.4 interval on daggers (AKA 2.5 atk/s and its inverse, .45s/atk)

    (.45) * (1 - .3) [this is if demon spark even increases speed)
    = ~.32
    round this to nearest .05, and you get .3 sec/atk which its inverse is 3.33 atk/s

    you see, even with a -interval weapon, you will never reach 5. even at 146 str for deicide, you'd still lack the mastery, and extra str BM has for HA; still, you will be out classed by the BM.

    thanks for trying though :P.
  • Murloc/ - Heavens Tear93
    Murloc/ - Heavens Tear93 Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I wonder what a Demon sin will be like endgame will full - interval gear.. Im guessing either "meh" or " Holy **** run for the hills "

    Oh yeah, it'll happen. >=3

    With full end game - interval gear, I'm thinking an assassin is going to be the new highest DPS.
  • Jahailad - Lost City
    Jahailad - Lost City Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    near 80% crit rate if power dash is maxed at endgame.

    just going to jump in and say that there is a cap of 40% crit rate
  • Kittennice - Heavens Tear
    Kittennice - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,744 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    Ok, so the average axe bm hits me for around 1200 every 2-3 seconds, while a fist bm hits me for 500-700 FOUR-FIVE TIMES every second, you calculate how much damage that is every secnd. Yes fists are lower damage but the damage they do in a short amount of time is absolutely insane.

    I was saying fists are lower damage because their damage per second is fairly the same (summed up) as another melee weapon. Therefore it would be a similar damage output and have valuable use. And I doubt an axe bm would auto attack oly to kill someone. This is what I'm saying:

    Demon Spark Axe and Demon Spark fists would create almost the same damage.

    So the slow axe hits harder every hit while the fist hits lower yet in a faster motion. Thus, keeping the balance. If you have a fast hitting axe, then that would have to be nurfed not a fist that is suppose to do what it does best.

    -interval gear should go all around with melee weapons if you want it nerfed so badly, not just fists. Also there is missing in this melee weapon universe, so you must take that into consideration. Then you have to take channeling gear into account if you want the melee gear nerfed. Magic already can't miss so spamming magic spells can really hurt, plus if they crit alot and just ouchie.

    So I'm summing this up for you because my other post wasn't clear. Interval gear doesn't need nerfing because it's fine. Plus the programmers would have to redo almost the whole entire game because if they mess with interval gear, they have to mess with channeling gear to keep it balanced. The gear is balanced already.
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  • Ballistixz - Heavens Tear
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear Posts: 690 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    AndyNagato - Lost City wrote: »
    this is impossible if you knew anything about attack speed; a full set of -interval gear + .1 on a weapon would yield -.4 interval on daggers (AKA 2.5 atk/s and its inverse, .45s/atk)

    (.45) * (1 - .3) [this is if demon spark even increases speed)
    = ~.32
    round this to nearest .05, and you get .3 sec/atk which its inverse is 3.33 atk/s

    you see, even with a -interval weapon, you will never reach 5. even at 146 str for deicide, you'd still lack the mastery, and extra str BM has for HA; still, you will be out classed by the BM.

    thanks for trying though :P.

    that rly wont matter depending on the dmg from the criticals the sin will be doing over a fist BM which will more then likely over come the less atk per sec that sin has compared to fist BMs.

    atks per second is not the only factor in DPS. it is one of the main factors but there are other things u have to consider aswell. and a sin with power dash will actually be doing more criticals then archers. they will be doing higher criticals as well because of wolf emblem.

    we also hit harder with both normal and criticals then fist BMs because for one our daggers have more atk then fists, and 2 all of our dmg comes straight from one stat which is dex where as fist BMs have to balance there stats out more to other stats in order to wear fists.

    also dont get me wrong but i love fist BMs. always have and always will, but i just think a sin can out DPS.
  • Olba - Sanctuary
    Olba - Sanctuary Posts: 1,776 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Legerity - Sanctuary wrote: »
    That BM using the numbers you stated without checking gear validity is
    7500*2.22*1.28 = 21312dps

    That Archer using those numbers you posted is
    15000*0.83*1.39 = 15220.5dps

    which is 40% more dps than the archer.

    Though I do believe a CS archer will wear rank6/8 top for -interval and the event tome+cape giving an additional -0.15s interval (or -0.2 if r8) which means the attack rate is 0.95 or 1.00 with r8 armor.

    I'm curious how you worked out dps?

    What you said makes no sense. You multiplied the damage by 1+critrate, but where do you get that? Crit rate is a chance to double damage, therefore the modifier should be 1+2*critrate. That's how I got the numbers I had.

    I deliberately stayed out of Rank gear, since I was partially mimicing the way Wizzeled made his Archer. Also, PWCalc does not have all the stats on the event stuff, such as Love: Up and Down and the event capes. Though yes, I did use Love: Up and Down on the build, but I instead put Cape of Elite Leather on both of them. And note, they are lvl 100.
    If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.

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  • AndyNagato - Lost City
    AndyNagato - Lost City Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    that rly wont matter depending on the dmg from the criticals the sin will be doing over a fist BM which will more then likely over come the less atk per sec that sin has compared to fist BMs.

    atks per second is not the only factor in DPS. it is one of the main factors but there are other things u have to consider aswell. and a sin with power dash will actually be doing more criticals then archers. they will be doing higher criticals as well because of wolf emblem.

    we also hit harder with both normal and criticals then fist BMs because for one our daggers have more atk then fists, and 2 all of our dmg comes straight from one stat which is dex where as fist BMs have to balance there stats out more to other stats in order to wear fists.

    also dont get me wrong but i love fist BMs. always have and always will, but i just think a sin can out DPS.
    thinking something can do something is not the same as being able to; just because they have a short term crit damage increasing buff does not mean they can out damage the BM.

    you cant just spout random things and assume that makes your theory true. tis much like a 5th grader stating he is more intelligent than the clearly more intelligent 3rd grader based off of the fact he is bigger, older, and in a higher grade. it doesnt work that way
    What you said makes no sense. You multiplied the damage by 1+critrate, but where do you get that? Crit rate is a chance to double damage, therefore the modifier should be 1+2*critrate. That's how I got the numbers I had.
    what she did is how you factor in the % chance to crit in DPS, one apparently has 28% crit, the other has 39% im guessing looking at that. im also assuming you do not know how to calculate DPS either.
  • _Ghoul_ - Lost City
    _Ghoul_ - Lost City Posts: 973 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    look i dobt a sin will get anything as 2 hit harder as i remember from my own sin. SIN have a self buff wish make u hit harder but at a lower rate so based on that true fact of self buff WHY in the world would u get a skil wish make u hit FASTER. A sin hit 2 kill in 1 hit so fast dps is never gona happen on sin.
    either play a bm or a barb b:laugh cos ull never dps like we do as its never intended 2 we.
    also to the archer who needed 2 use a apoc 2 hit harder aint that kinda fail 2 compare ur attack with a apoc if a bm do same he will keep agro cos more damage.
    i saw ur dps but u failed when u said u used a apotecary 2 we abe 2 keep with that damage.
    or u telling me u need apot 2 steal agro from a fist bm and that is ok
    cos u have 2 much dex lol
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »
    What you said makes no sense. You multiplied the damage by 1+critrate, but where do you get that? Crit rate is a chance to double damage, therefore the modifier should be 1+2*critrate. That's how I got the numbers I had.

    overall dps increase makes sense if you consider: 1-critrate + 2*critrate as your multiplier. legy has it right
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  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    Do you guys think fists are too powerful when combined with -interval gears? BM's properly geared have the highest endgame dps, and there's really no competition for that. Even archers who have access to endgame fists and -interval gears will use FISTS not BOW to do dps in pve.

    I have seen fist BM's kill barbs in tiger form in under 7-8 seconds. Granted it was under sage/hell spark, but that still just should not happen.

    So do fists need a nerf?

    Do you guys think Casters/Archers are too powerful when combined with kiting and, god forbid, vac powder? BMs properly geared have the shorest attack range, and there's really no competition for that. Even lower archers who have access to kiting and vac powders will kite and fight, not die instead.

    I have seen archers/casters kite BMs/Barbs in tiger form for over 7-8 minutes. Granted it was aided by Holy Path spamming, but that still just should not happen.

    So do long ranges need a nerf?

    Archer gets to stab with arrows and magic swords should be use for slashing    .
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  • StormHydra - Sanctuary
    StormHydra - Sanctuary Posts: 2,221 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    o noez archers invading this thread with math(s).
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  • Ballistixz - Heavens Tear
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear Posts: 690 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    AndyNagato - Lost City wrote: »
    thinking something can do something is not the same as being able to; just because they have a short term crit damage increasing buff does not mean they can out damage the BM.

    you cant just spout random things and assume that makes your theory true. tis much like a 5th grader stating he is more intelligent than the clearly more intelligent 3rd grader based off of the fact he is bigger, older, and in a higher grade. it doesnt work that way

    what she did is how you factor in the % chance to crit in DPS, one apparently has 28% crit, the other has 39% im guessing looking at that. im also assuming you do not know how to calculate DPS either.


    short term? full dex sins have have much higher crit rate then a BM with or without PD. PD just adds a bigg boost to that already naturally high crit over a BM. we went over this on the sin forum lol. and its not assumption just get a sin into the 10x with endgame gear and u will see what im talking about even tho the class itself is not finished yet.

    also what you are saying is highly similar to what ppl were saying about a year ago when fist BMs were first theorized about...

    also your basis is purely off of the atk speed where as sin is just right behind BMs in terms of atk speed. a sin is closer to the atk speed of a fist BM then any other class with decent dmg to back them up. but obviously i cant convince u seeing as how me and a few other ppl went over this with u in the sin forums already. right now a sin is not as fast as a fist BM but they still hit fast regardless and they hit hard often and crit harder more often then fist BMs.

    basically all they would have to do is overcome the 2 or so less hits they do per second compared to a fist BM. do the math and see the average dmg a fist BM can do in a certain time frame compared to a sins.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ...attack speed does matter a lot in prolonged DPS. there's spark coverage to consider. you're -0.1s behind a fist bm in attack speed, that's actually a lot...unless your rank8 chest happens to have -0.1s interval too and you go demon or something.

    but enough speculations. why don't you actually provide some DPS calculations instead of saying "we sins have this and we sins have that?" wouldn't that shut everyone up for good?
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  • Asurr - Heavens Tear
    Asurr - Heavens Tear Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    ...attack speed does matter a lot in prolonged DPS. there's spark coverage to consider. you're -0.1s behind a fist bm in attack speed, that's actually a lot...unless your rank8 chest happens to have -0.1s interval too and you go demon or something.
    \



    this puts me under the impression that u believe a sin cant get the same the same -0.1 rank 8 armor (which is light) that both a BM and archer has similar stats to. what exactly makes u think a sin wont get the same?
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Asurr - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    this puts me under the impression that u believe a sin cant get the same the same -0.1 rank 8 armor (which is light) that both a BM and archer has similar stats to. what exactly makes u think a sin wont get the same?

    the speed difference is from the weapons alone and no BMs rank8 chest does not get -interval. this can be bridged if sins' rank8 has a similar -interval stat as the archer's rank8 chest. that's all i said.
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  • BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear
    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear Posts: 249 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    rank 8 is the same for everyone. true we won'T be as fast as bms(just a fact) but who cares lol....we sure will do a lot more dmg duo to our buffs^^
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    BIackTyphoon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    rank 8 is the same for everyone. true we won'T be as fast as bms(just a fact) but who cares lol....we sure will do a lot more dmg duo to our buffs^^

    rank8 is not the same for everyone...

    rank8 archer gets both -0.1s interval in their chest and in their weapon. the other physical classes do not
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  • Asurr - Heavens Tear
    Asurr - Heavens Tear Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    fist BMs simply attack faster because their fist weapon has higher attack speed and no their rank8 chest does not get -interval. the speed difference between dagger and fist/claw can be bridged if sins' rank8 has a similar -interval stat as the archer's rank8 chest. that's all i said.

    im pretty sure all the rank armor gives the same bonuses for its armor type. and so far all of the assassins rank armor had the same bonuses as the others rank armor for archers. its just they had diffrent names and were class bound but still had the same bonuses. (havent seen the rank 8 ones for assassins though but more then likely they give the same bonuses as the other light armor Rank 8 seeing as the others did...)


    so anyway lets say assassin and fist BM have the same interval ****. the only thing that will make assassins atk slower is the difference in dagger and fist/claw atk speed correct?. that is what you're saying right? just making sure i understand you.

    if that is the case i cant see how a sin wont be atleast coming insanely close to a fist BMs DPS if they dont surpass it. if anything a sin will be the 2nd highest DPSer in the game.
    rank8 archer gets both -0.1s interval in their chest and in their weapon. the other physical classes do not

    not true. a assassin gets the same light armor rank equip as a archer does as ive already said. barbs get heavy armor rank equips which is why theres is diffrent. arcanes like veno, psy, cleric, and wiz get arcane armor and all give the same rank bonuses but they get diffrent names on it.

    a sin will get the same rank bonuses archer get because a sins rank armor is light armor. i havent rly played BM far so idk if they get heavy rank armor or light rank armor. if they get heavy rank armor then it explains why theres is diffrent.

    so in conclusion and just plain common sense, a sin will get the same bonus that is on the rank8 light armor chest for archer. the name will just be diffrent is all =) now a question is if a sin has a weapon with -0.1 100 daggers. i heard the nirvana dagges do but idk cuz i know nothing of the nirvana stuff atm.

    but if this is the case and judging by what u said earlier in sins being -0.1 intervals behind a fist BM without the rank 8 chest then the rank 8 armor for sin will put them at the same atk speed as a fist BM right? maybe even more IF (and thats a big IF) possibly our 100 daggers give 0.1 interval aswell? this makes me more curious now lol. can someone find the stats on the nirvana daggers pls x.x

    *Edited my post to make it more clear so no one misunderstands me as they always seem to do >.>*

    EDIT (again): i just searched around and it does seem as if the nirvana daggers give -0.1 intervals. so that and the rank 8 chest will put them at a pretty high atk speed with other interval gear and stuff.
  • truekossy
    truekossy Posts: 7,021 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Asurr - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    not true. a assassin gets the same light armor rank equip as a archer does as ive already said. barbs get heavy armor rank equips which is why theres is diffrent. arcanes like veno, psy, cleric, and wiz get arcane armor and all give the same rank bonuses but they get diffrent names on it.

    Pardon me while I prove your entire argument false.

    BM:
    WXrank8a.JPG
    Barb:
    YSrank8a.PNG

    Both are heavy armors, yet they do have some different bonuses.

    Not good enough? Okay fine.

    Wiz:
    http://janelh.wdfiles.com/local--files/military-rank-equipment/FSrank8b.PNG
    Veno:
    http://janelh.wdfiles.com/local--files/military-rank-equipment/YJrank8b.PNG
    Cleric:
    http://janelh.wdfiles.com/local--files/military-rank-equipment/YLrank8b.PNG

    All 3 are arcane, yet all 3 have differences.



    So assuming that the assassin rank 8 gear will be the exact same as that of an archer is... silly, to say the least. Similar due to armor class, sure. But the exact same? Not gonna happen (unless the devs were insanely lazy), and not true with any other class anyway.
  • Asurr - Heavens Tear
    Asurr - Heavens Tear Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    truekossy wrote: »
    Pardon me while I prove your entire argument false.

    BM:
    WXrank8a.JPG
    Barb:
    YSrank8a.PNG

    Both are heavy armors, yet they do have some different bonuses.

    Not good enough? Okay fine.

    Wiz:
    http://janelh.wdfiles.com/local--files/military-rank-equipment/FSrank8b.PNG
    Veno:
    http://janelh.wdfiles.com/local--files/military-rank-equipment/YJrank8b.PNG
    Cleric:
    http://janelh.wdfiles.com/local--files/military-rank-equipment/YLrank8b.PNG

    All 3 are arcane, yet all 3 have differences.



    So assuming that the assassin rank 8 gear will be the exact same as that of an archer is... silly, to say the least. Similar due to armor class, sure. But the exact same? Not gonna happen (unless the devs were insanely lazy), and not true with any other class anyway.

    so basically u went to get stats from a diffrent version? take a look at it again. for all of the arcane armor the HP and INT rates are the same. the only thing that changes among the 3 are def, HP recovery, and MP. AND not only that but those are the trousers not the chest pieces. why does that matter u ask? look at the links below that i will give u to find out. as for the heavy armor the only thing thats diffrent is that one gives str and the other gives vit. GG and good try tho. but it didnt prove my argument false at all.

    as i said before more then likely sins will get the -0.1 interval bonus. as far as ive already seen all of the bonuses that archers got on there rank gear has been the same for the sins rank gear. so just from that i can safely say that it will be the same for sins. unless they decide to add +2.00 range on it which would just be lol.



    also btw:

    http://janelh.wdfiles.com/local--files/military-rank-equipment/FSrank8a.PNG

    http://janelh.wdfiles.com/local--files/military-rank-equipment/YLrank8a.PNG

    http://janelh.wdfiles.com/local--files/military-rank-equipment/YJrank8a.PNG

    these are the CHEST PIECES for arcane Rank 8. as u can see genious there all the EXACT SAME. what u posted was the trousers for rank 8. but again, GG and nice troll =).

    so tell me again why sins wont have the same chest piece as a archer?

    next time u try to make urself look smart make sure u look less like an idiot while doing it. if you wasnt doing this as a troll then i suggest u read more carefully next time. but u should have known that we were talking about the archers -0.1 interval on there chest and sins having the same because all of the other rank 8 chests are the same for there armor type. maybe i should have made that more clear but i thought it was obvious....


    Edit: i went ahead and did the math with intervals. with full interval gear + the rank 8 light armor chest (-0.1) and the nirvana daggers (another -0.1) and assuming demon spark increases atk speed a sin can indeed reach 5 atks per second.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    so heavy's bonuses are different while arcane's are the same (and those true posted are chest pieces, leggings on that site is called...leggings and trousers). how are you going to infer that all light armor bonuses will be the same? that's probably what that poster meant. but enough speculation, you're arguing something i wasn't even arguing against.
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  • Asurr - Heavens Tear
    Asurr - Heavens Tear Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    well the only thing diffrent on the heavy armor is str on one of them and vit on the other. nothing significant since heavy users benefit from either str or vit so it hardly matters imo.

    up untill just less then a month ago archers were the only class to receive LA rank armor. none of the other classes got LA rank armor. now that sins are in the picture they are receiving that same LA rank armor that archers were getting. all of the rank chest for there armor type is the same. all of the arcanes have the same rank chest. and the only difference in heavy rank chest is vit and str because heavies use both stats and benefit from either one. that is how i can infer that.

    oh and the only thing true posted that were chest pieces was the heavy chest pieces. but he amazingly neglected to include the arcane chest pieces and instead included the arcane leggings even tho i wasnt talking about the leggings. but i guess thats my fault for not being more clear and not being specific enought. either way my point remains the same and unchanged. all of the rank 8 chest are identical for there armor type.

    also i was only arguing this because someone said the only way a sin would close the atk per second gap was with -0.1 interval on the rank 8 LA chest and they probably wouldnt even get it. i was trying to prove otherwise. and seeing as with that then a sin can get the same atk per second as a fist BM.

    it would be expensive as hell to do so but can be done. but u are right we should just wait and see. as of this moment a fist BM is the highest DPSer end game. however give it a couple of months till sins get all there end game gear and then lets have this discussion again =). we are far off topic anyway. and im going off to bed.
  • Divine_Death - Dreamweaver
    Divine_Death - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,491 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Asurr - Heavens Tear wrote: »

    if that is the case i cant see how a sin wont be atleast coming insanely close to a fist BMs DPS if they dont surpass it. if anything a sin will be the 2nd highest DPSer in the game.

    Sins would be better DD than fist BMs at the end. Even if they are slightly slower, a level 100 sin with 400 DEX hits like a fist BM with 400 DEX AND 400 STR. Since DEX goes to both crit and damage for Sins they don't have to sacrifice damage for crit or vice versa. Sins will have higher natural crit rate AND higher damage boost from DEX than a same level BM from the less possible STR the BM can have, also there's higher crit % bonus along with shorter cool down on Wolf Emblem.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Closing this for excess letter Q's" - hawk
  • Asurr - Heavens Tear
    Asurr - Heavens Tear Posts: 161 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    yes thats why i think that with rank 8 LA chest and nirvana daggers and some interval gear a sin will get about the same atk rate as a fist BM. if that happens then a sin can easily out DPS them. having a class that can out DPS and out dmg a fist BM meleeing is a scary thought. but that is how its looking. and the i can only imagine what the QQing will be like ._.;

    ima just give it a few more months untill the sins are the new DPS monsters of the game. but untill then the Fist BMs will still be under the spotlight and hold there crown as best DPSers in game for a good while longer.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Chezedude - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    That is not correct. when both are at max atk rate, both will constantly be sparked that is a huge constant increase in p atk meaning that the advantage bms have from the extra strength is reduced.
    Yeah, that's what I said. I even tried to account for critrate on the spark damage. Like I said, it doesn't look like it's able to overcome the BM's str and mastery advantage.
    Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »
    What you said makes no sense. You multiplied the damage by 1+critrate, but where do you get that? Crit rate is a chance to double damage, therefore the modifier should be 1+2*critrate. That's how I got the numbers I had.
    You will do regular damage (1-critrate)% of the time, or (1-critrate)*regular_damage

    You will do crit damage (critrate)% of the time, or critrate*2*regular_damage

    Total damage is then:
    (1 - critrate)*regular_damage + critrate*2*regular_damage
    = (regular_damage - critrate*regular_damage) + 2*critrate*regular_damage
    = regular_damage + (2*critrate*regular_damage - critrate*regular_damage)
    = regular_damage + critrate*regular_damage
    = regular_damage * (1+critrate)

    So the correct factor is (1+critrate).
    Asurr - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    as i said before more then likely sins will get the -0.1 interval bonus. as far as ive already seen all of the bonuses that archers got on there rank gear has been the same for the sins rank gear.
    I really doubt assassins will get the -0.1 interval on their rank 8 gear. Archers get it because their bow weapons are very slow shooting. That archers can use it with fist weapons is probably an unintended consequence.

    Numerically, the design of the mechanics of this game have struck me as not being very well thought-out. A lot of stuff looks like they just made up some formula, and "Hey it seems to work pretty well, let's go with it." The idea that gear which increases attack speed should take a fixed time (0.05 or 0.1 sec) off the weapon delay is, quite frankly, stupid. It favors fast weapons, which is why all the fuss is being made about fist weapons. The way they should've done it was to take a fixed percentage off the weapon delay, like -channeling gear does, capped at something like 50%.
  • maocchi
    maocchi Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    This amuses me. BMs never really excelled at anything until people realized fists can actually deal damage. Even then it was a rare breed so people didn't really care. Then when - interval gears started coming into the light and fist BMs took the spot as the highest damage dealers in the game, suddenly some people are raging over how broken BMs are. What, does BMs actually being able to do something impressive give you a headache?

    Regarding Fist BMs vs. Sins...I won't say which is the highest damage dealer but I will say that I think Sins are BETTER damage dealers. While Fist BMs need to stunlock and punch away at zero distance, Sins can choose to auto attack OR use ranged spike skills that put axes to shame, not to mention they have virtually infinite supply of chi at disposal. Fist BMs having more - interval doesn't really make up for the crazy advantages Sins have as damage dealers over a fist BM.

    Note that I didn't include any other aspect of Sins...b:surrender
  • AndyNagato - Lost City
    AndyNagato - Lost City Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    maocchi wrote: »
    This amuses me. BMs never really excelled at anything until people realized fists can actually deal damage. Even then it was a rare breed so people didn't really care. Then when - interval gears started coming into the light and fist BMs took the spot as the highest damage dealers in the game, suddenly some people are raging over how broken BMs are. What, does BMs actually being able to do something impressive give you a headache?

    Regarding Fist BMs vs. Sins...I won't say which is the highest damage dealer but I will say that I think Sins are BETTER damage dealers. While Fist BMs need to stunlock and punch away at zero distance, Sins can choose to auto attack OR use ranged spike skills that put axes to shame, not to mention they have virtually infinite supply of chi at disposal. Fist BMs having more - interval doesn't really make up for the crazy advantages Sins have as damage dealers over a fist BM.

    Note that I didn't include any other aspect of Sins...b:surrender
    this is the most sensible thing i have ever seen on these forums. no made up numbers without math, no 'sins can do this, so they must be this' assumption arguments, its a clearly defined OPINION. other posters, take this as an example lol.

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