Does -interval gear need to be balanced?

24

Comments

  • Alyyy - Sanctuary
    Alyyy - Sanctuary Posts: 3,165 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    Do you guys think fists are too powerful when combined with -interval gears? BM's properly geared have the highest endgame dps, and there's really no competition for that. Even archers who have access to endgame fists and -interval gears will use FISTS not BOW to do dps in pve.

    I have seen fist BM's kill barbs in tiger form in under 7-8 seconds. Granted it was under sage/hell spark, but that still just should not happen.

    So do fists need a nerf?

    u can say same for any mage class...

    2 cv rings+exclusive dark with chanel stones in both sockets+frostcovered cape+belt and necky with -chanel(and for wizards rank 8 reward..wizard top?clerics get -6 chanel on the wep with r8 so its kinda ewen more or less)

    and holy cleric buff for -20 chanel xD

    hm...

    ouch wouldnt u say?
    Clerics are like cops...they always seem to be around.....until you actually need one b:surrender - DeadRaven
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  • Unknown
    Unknown
    edited January 2010
    This content has been removed.
  • Ponza - Lost City
    Ponza - Lost City Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Kittennice - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Lol what?


    But if you are serious then no, fists don't. The speed covers the damage output so it would be close to equal as the other weapons. Else what's the point if it hits as slow as an axe? People would just go for the axe and foregt all about the claw/fist.

    Ok, so the average axe bm hits me for around 1200 every 2-3 seconds, while a fist bm hits me for 500-700 FOUR-FIVE TIMES every second, you calculate how much damage that is every secnd. Yes fists are lower damage but the damage they do in a short amount of time is absolutely insane.
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    i read this
    I have seen fist BM's kill barbs in tiger form in under 7-8 seconds. Granted it was under sage/hell spark, but that still just should not happen.

    and wonder why the barb decided to sit through a triple spark (and why you couldn't tell if it was heaven or hell)
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • rikako
    rikako Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    ^ genie hides the poor fairy
  • Ponza - Lost City
    Ponza - Lost City Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    i read this



    and wonder why the barb decided to sit through a triple spark (and why you couldn't tell if it was heaven or hell)

    Occult Ice + roar
  • Olba - Sanctuary
    Olba - Sanctuary Posts: 1,776 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    Ok, so the average axe bm hits me for around 1200 every 2-3 seconds, while a fist bm hits me for 500-700 FOUR-FIVE TIMES every second, you calculate how much damage that is every secnd. Yes fists are lower damage but the damage they do in a short amount of time is absolutely insane.

    Here is a potential cash shopped fist BM. Unfortunately PWCalc does not have all the attributes for the robes and the tomes, so it's slightly inaccurate. Though, highlights include: 2.22 atk/s, 21k phys def, 7,500 average damage, 28% crit, 14k life. That this character a good 25,974 dps.

    For comparison, here is a similarly geared Archer, highlights being 15k average damage, 0.83 atk/s, 8k phys def, 39% crit, 11k life. That gives this archer a DPS of 22,659.

    So about similarly geared, the Bm is looking at ~14.63% more dps.

    Anyone with more knowledge towards end-game BMs and Archers might want to re-do this for accuracy.
    If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.

    Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.
  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    Ok, so the average axe bm hits me for around 1200 every 2-3 seconds, while a fist bm hits me for 500-700 FOUR-FIVE TIMES every second, you calculate how much damage that is every secnd. Yes fists are lower damage but the damage they do in a short amount of time is absolutely insane.
    The real key is the demon triple spark. In addition to increasing attack speed, it gives 500% additional weapon damage, heals 20% your hp, grants 3 sec of invulnerability, and lasts 15 sec. At 5 attacks/sec, you will hit often enough to build up 3 sparks in 15 sec, meaning you can stay permanently triple-sparked with fists. You can't do that with axes.
  • Olba - Sanctuary
    Olba - Sanctuary Posts: 1,776 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The real key is the demon triple spark. In addition to increasing attack speed, it gives 500% additional weapon damage, heals 20% your hp, grants 3 sec of invulnerability, and lasts 15 sec. At 5 attacks/sec, you will hit often enough to build up 3 sparks in 15 sec, meaning you can stay permanently triple-sparked with fists. You can't do that with axes.

    Um, 15 seconds at 5 APS gets you 75 attacks. If you had more than 200 damage per hit, you could kill a 15k character with that. I kinda want to see a character that could survive more than a single spark. Especially since getting to 5 APS pretty much requires epic gear that would get you much more than 200 damage per hit. Actually, I would think that the high APS provides a problem: Your target ends up dying before you can fill your chi to spark again. So you would need to find a new target pretty darn fast and hope that you're neither dead nor out of spark before that happens.

    And as I showed in my above post, you don't even need the spark or 5 APS for a fist BM to out-DPS an Archer. Heck, it happens with much lesser gear than in my example, just not at such a high margin.
    If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.

    Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.
  • Kimbley - Harshlands
    Kimbley - Harshlands Posts: 274 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    Ok, so the average axe bm hits me for around 1200 every 2-3 seconds, while a fist bm hits me for 500-700 FOUR-FIVE TIMES every second, you calculate how much damage that is every secnd. Yes fists are lower damage but the damage they do in a short amount of time is absolutely insane.

    Eh... for future reference.... axe bm's don't usually just autoattack do they?
  • Ursa - Dreamweaver
    Ursa - Dreamweaver Posts: 2,634 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Olba, look here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=591401

    Archer due to high dex can pack up more speed than BMs. With claws/fists, this is what a endgame archer can do.
    STA (sage 20% , demon 16%) gives that much of an advantage in DPS.
    Anni packs just made BMs good for stuns and buffs. Archers are the kings of this game right now in DPS. Nothing, absolutely nothing can come even close to them.
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  • Super_Trout - Dreamweaver
    Super_Trout - Dreamweaver Posts: 225 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I'll just leave this here. b:avoid
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Olba - Sanctuary
    Olba - Sanctuary Posts: 1,776 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Olba, look here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=591401

    Oh, I have seen those. But note that he is using fists, not a bow. I was comparing a Fist BM to a regular archer using a bow.
    Archer due to high dex can pack up more speed than BMs.

    ... Since when did Dexterity give attack speed? Therefore, I really hope you're talking about killing speed here.
    With claws/fists, this is what a endgame archer can do.
    STA (sage 20% , demon 16%) gives that much of an advantage in DPS.
    Anni packs just made BMs good for stuns and buffs. Archers are the kings of this game right now in DPS. Nothing, absolutely nothing can come even close to them.

    I find it flawed to count STA in DPS, since it varies based on the enemy. For example, take Linus and his 1 369 541 life. STA has 2.0 sec channel and 0.6 second cast, giving it, in this case, a DPS of 84,279. At 5 APS, that would equal to 16,855 per hit. Not something a fist BM, or an archer for that matter, would be capable of.

    Of course, slapping on every single godly end-game piece of equipment and a varied build such as that of chezedude, and you can do all kinds of cool stuff. However, if you take an archer using a bow against a fist BM, the fist BM will out-DPS the archer even with TT90s.
    If you disregard what I say because of who I am or because of the contents of what I said, you are a fool.

    Everyone wants to be different, but when you're different you wish you were normal.
  • AndyNagato - Lost City
    AndyNagato - Lost City Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ponza - Lost City wrote: »
    Do you guys think fists are too powerful when combined with -interval gears? BM's properly geared have the highest endgame dps, and there's really no competition for that. Even archers who have access to endgame fists and -interval gears will use FISTS not BOW to do dps in pve.

    I have seen fist BM's kill barbs in tiger form in under 7-8 seconds. Granted it was under sage/hell spark, but that still just should not happen.

    So do fists need a nerf?
    this is a dumb thread.

    first you need a lunar cape, tome, TT99 2x LA pieces, and 2x HA pieces (ie the evasion accesories or pdef ones, then two pieces of the opposite's armor; one being wrists) and an interval weapon with -.1.

    do you realize how expensive that is? that is why fists are almost nonexistant endgame.
  • Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear
    Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »

    ... Since when did Dexterity give attack speed? Therefore, I really hope you're talking about killing speed here.

    .

    You are right att speed doesnt come from dex, it comes from gears and sparks. So two equally geared chars. 1 BM 1 Archer would have the same att speed, regardless of dex.

    The archer would have the edge due to higher crit rate.

    Thats without counting skills such as STA or BM's Dragon Bane
  • Legerity - Sanctuary
    Legerity - Sanctuary Posts: 1,072 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Olba - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Here is a potential cash shopped fist BM. Unfortunately PWCalc does not have all the attributes for the robes and the tomes, so it's slightly inaccurate. Though, highlights include: 2.22 atk/s, 21k phys def, 7,500 average damage, 28% crit, 14k life. That this character a good 25,974 dps.

    For comparison, here is a similarly geared Archer, highlights being 15k average damage, 0.83 atk/s, 8k phys def, 39% crit, 11k life. That gives this archer a DPS of 22,659.

    So about similarly geared, the Bm is looking at ~14.63% more dps.

    Anyone with more knowledge towards end-game BMs and Archers might want to re-do this for accuracy.

    That BM using the numbers you stated without checking gear validity is
    7500*2.22*1.28 = 21312dps

    That Archer using those numbers you posted is
    15000*0.83*1.39 = 15220.5dps

    which is 40% more dps than the archer.

    Though I do believe a CS archer will wear rank6/8 top for -interval and the event tome+cape giving an additional -0.15s interval (or -0.2 if r8) which means the attack rate is 0.95 or 1.00 with r8 armor.

    I'm curious how you worked out dps?
  • Asperitas - Lost City
    Asperitas - Lost City Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Here's what I think end-game fist archers and BMs might use, self-buffed.

    **Note: I had to substitute Life Everlasting for Love: Up and Down because pwcalc doesn't have the interval bonus on the love tome.

    BM:
    http://www.pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=a716ef15dd3e81cc

    Archer:
    http://www.pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=16562fbbb6d49eb9

    My knowledge on either is not especially extensive, so I could be wrong.

    I also don't know much about DPS, so I can't give any definite numbers. Just looking at the builds, though the archer has a higher crit rate, the BM has almost double the physical attack. Will archers really out-dps a BM of this caliber?

    Anyway, on topic - I don't think intervals need to be nerfed. For one, fists are extremely close range. Unless the person tanks your hits, or you stunlock them while switching for fists in between, they're gonna be running away from you. Second, though you might get killed really fast by endgame BMs, don't forget we're also getting if not one-shot, hurt like hell by mages.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Olba, look here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=591401

    Archer due to high dex can pack up more speed than BMs. With claws/fists, this is what a endgame archer can do.
    STA (sage 20% , demon 16%) gives that much of an advantage in DPS.
    Anni packs just made BMs good for stuns and buffs. Archers are the kings of this game right now in DPS. Nothing, absolutely nothing can come even close to them.

    attack speed due to...high dex? o.o

    it's called 8jun chest giving -0.1s interval, something no other 8jun gear gives.
    rikako wrote: »
    ^ genie hides the poor fairy

    really? didn't know it'd hide a triple spark.
    Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
    Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
    Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
    Qui: b:dirty
  • Wesleyleung - Heavens Tear
    Wesleyleung - Heavens Tear Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ursa - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Olba, look here: http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=591401

    Archer due to high dex can pack up more speed than BMs. With claws/fists, this is what a endgame archer can do.
    STA (sage 20% , demon 16%) gives that much of an advantage in DPS.
    Anni packs just made BMs good for stuns and buffs. Archers are the kings of this game right now in DPS. Nothing, absolutely nothing can come even close to them.

    b:pleased wow. u are wrong in so many areas.
  • Devoted - Lost City
    Devoted - Lost City Posts: 3,634 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    nothing beats a demon fist warrior. didnt i say this 10 months go?
  • Ballistixz - Heavens Tear
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear Posts: 690 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    just my 2 cents but i think a endgame sin can out dps both archer and fist BMs in melee. all they would rly need is wolf emblem and power dash and then go pew pew b:avoid


    near 80% crit rate if power dash is maxed at endgame. i seriously doubt an archer nor a fist BM can beat that. the only problem right now is sins done have demon spark yet but that will come in due time. and chi for sins is like free candy. they have so many atk skills that gain chi + there fast atk rate it wont be a problem for them to double spark powerdash and then go right into demon tripple spark instantly after power dash because of inner harmony.
  • Inabikari - Raging Tide
    Inabikari - Raging Tide Posts: 147 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Endgame, humans have the greatest capacity for dps. Wizzies have -channeling gear, and bms have -interval. Though wizzies' -chan doesn't exponentially increase attacks per second due to racharge and cast times, they are far more useful in TW because of their targeting and range capacity. XD
    RIP Resolve. You guys still owe me TW pay. XD

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  • AndyNagato - Lost City
    AndyNagato - Lost City Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    just my 2 cents but i think a endgame sin can out dps both archer and fist BMs in melee. all they would rly need is wolf emblem and power dash and then go pew pew b:avoid


    near 80% crit rate if power dash is maxed at endgame. i seriously doubt an archer nor a fist BM can beat that. the only problem right now is sins done have demon spark yet but that will come in due time. and chi for sins is like free candy. they have so many atk skills that gain chi + there fast atk rate it wont be a problem for them to double spark powerdash and then go right into demon tripple spark instantly after power dash because of inner harmony.
    making up numbers is fail on so many levels. even with a ton of interval stuff, youd barely break 2 atk/s with spark. BM gets 5. you cannot out damage a BM.
  • Asperitas - Lost City
    Asperitas - Lost City Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    just my 2 cents but i think a endgame sin can out dps both archer and fist BMs in melee. all they would rly need is wolf emblem and power dash and then go pew pew b:avoid


    near 80% crit rate if power dash is maxed at endgame. i seriously doubt an archer nor a fist BM can beat that. the only problem right now is sins done have demon spark yet but that will come in due time. and chi for sins is like free candy. they have so many atk skills that gain chi + there fast atk rate it wont be a problem for them to double spark powerdash and then go right into demon tripple spark instantly after power dash because of inner harmony.


    I was under the impression that wolf emblem and power dash increase your rage damage, not your crit rate. I'm just going by ecatomb and what people say in assassin forums, so correct me if I'm wrong.

    Assassins as of now are unable to hit 5 attacks per second, thus unable to remain permasparked. That's 500% less weapon damage. Sure you can use chi-gaining skills, but that means you have to stop attacking to gain chi, which reduces your dps.

    Also as a BM, you can dragon bane + demon spark, which means 50%+ crit rate and 500% weapon damage with 5 attacks per second. That means every 2 hits you crit, with 500% weapon damage.

    Gonna be hard to outdps an end-game demon fist bm imo.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AndyNagato - Lost City
    AndyNagato - Lost City Posts: 185 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    make note you need to get dragonbane's effect purified before it makes it worth using lol. people tend to forget that weapon attack decrease |:.

    also you are correct about rage damage, it doesnt increase crit rate, just the damage it does...
  • Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973
    Asterelle - Sanctuary_1381265973 Posts: 7,881 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    just my 2 cents but i think a endgame sin can out dps both archer and fist BMs in melee.

    near 80% crit rate if power dash is maxed at endgame. i seriously doubt an archer nor a fist BM can beat that.

    Neither power dash nor wolf emblem increase crit rate. Even if it did demon BMs have a 100% crit rate skill.
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  • Asperitas - Lost City
    Asperitas - Lost City Posts: 907 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    I'm hoping people will dragon bane before they triple spark so the spark purifies the effect. :)
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  • Solandri - Heavens Tear
    Solandri - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,843 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Cernunnosx - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The archer would have the edge due to higher crit rate.
    While that's obviously true with archery weapons, and crits are definitely more useful in PvP, I'm doubtful higher dex has the edge in PvE using fist weapons. Dex increases crit rate by what, 1% every 20 dex? So every 20 dex increase damage by 1% over base.

    Every single point of str will increase damage by 0.67% over base. If you factor in fist mastery (which archers don't even get), each point of str will increase damage by 0.33% over base. Still a substantially better return rate for damage than dex.

    Here's a fist archer build posted earlier in this thread:
    http://www.pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=16562fbbb6d49eb9
    3681-4110 phys attack (3895.5 avg)
    39% crit
    Avg damage per hit = 1.39*3895.5 = 5414.7

    Here's the same build converted to BM and modified so all extra dex is shifted to str. I added demon fist mastery too, but left the archer rank8 chest to simulate demon spark being active (so nobody will say "hey he only gets 3.3 atk/sec"):
    http://www.pwcalc.ru/pwi/?char=9e58c72b05bc8df2
    7716-8615 phys attack (8165.5 avg)
    28% crit
    Avg damage per hit = 1.28*8165.5 = 10451.8 (93% more than the archer)

    So you can see, the same number of points invested in str gives you a much higher return in damage for melee than the same number of points invested in dex. So my hunch is the fist BM will crush the fist archer in average damage. The primary advantage of the archer is their rank8 chest armor has -0.1 interval, making it easier (relatively speaking) for them to get to 5 atk/sec.

    The only thing I'm not sure about is how sparks will affect this, since str does not increase sparked damage while crits do. But 500% demon sparked damage over an 11% increase in crit rate is only a max 55% more damage, so I doubt it's enough to overcome the BM's 93% more damage per hit.
  • Killermate - Harshlands
    Killermate - Harshlands Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    AndyNagato - Lost City wrote: »
    make note you need to get dragonbane's effect purified before it makes it worth using lol. people tend to forget that weapon attack decrease |:.

    also you are correct about rage damage, it doesnt increase crit rate, just the damage it does...

    At the moment, despite of what the description says, Power Dash = extra 40% crit for 8 seconds.

    You could also do what the Archer in Heaven's Tears server did. Assassin could simply put a bit more Str and equip lunar fist after using skills that require dagger.

    ATM, assassin can't reach 5.0 attack rate even with TT99 set bonuses. Only a matter of time though, soon enough there will be rank8 sins to confirm if the lvl100 weapon gives interval. Or possibly someone could get lucky recasting and get a Nirvana dagger with interval in it as well.

    BM will have highest DPS for quite a while. Only thing that can top it is if assassins can reach 5.0 attack rate using daggers.
  • Ballistixz - Heavens Tear
    Ballistixz - Heavens Tear Posts: 690 Arc User
    edited January 2010
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Neither power dash nor wolf emblem increase crit rate. Even if it did demon BMs have a 100% crit rate skill.


    power dash DOES increase crit rate. thats been tested and confirmed. its an error in the text. wolf emblem increases rage damage however. also despite sins not geting 5atks per seconds they still atk decently fast and they dont need to be perma sparked from melee only. they stay perma sparked by a combination of there skills and melee atks to be sparked up all the time.

    + a BM wont be able to keep up with those constant high crits even with there fast atk rate.

    the only thing preventing sins from out DPSing them ATM is demon sparks and such. there not yet finished but once the class is done i highly beleive they can out DPS fist BMs.

    but like i said we have to wait and see since its only a matter of time. we will see what they get. they have alot of potential to be the highest DPSers in game. thats why im sticking to what i say untill i see the class finished lol. even if a sin can reach 3 or 4 atk per second i can easily see them out DPSing a fist BM purely because of there NATURALLY high crit rate + crit rate from gears and +40% crit rate from power dash when its maxed. on top of wolf emblem which is +30% rage dmg and demon then in my mind i cannot see a fist BM out dpsing them at all.

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