i just don't get why @_@

FloraFang - Harshlands · December 2009

(srry if there is a thread somewhere like this)
well all i want to know is why is everyone convinced that a veno is no good without a herc?
it seems like every squad i get into the question do you have a herc comes up?
i'm like is a herc really tht important not every person who plays this game can afford such things.b:angry
Sure a herc will make things easier but there are other pets that are just as good( i hope i'm right). So far my volcanic has gotten me throught thick and thin, hell i ws even able to tank wyvern until our cleric that died got back before i died.
i just want to know what's your opinions on this matter.b:surrender

Istessa - Dreamweaver · December 2009

I don't think i'll ever get a herc. Therefore, I'm with you on that. If need be, us venos can just start making parties without anybody else. we got clerics and tanks and everything in just our little groups b:victory

SashaGray - Heavens Tear · December 2009

you're partly right. veno's without hercs are still very useful, there is nothing wrong with not getting one. squads that require the veno to have a herc, especially in TT are most likely the cleric and barb wanting to do less work. although even if herc tanks most of the TT barb will still want to claim first pick, then the 2 clerics, then veno classed as a DD, which is completely fooked.
(excuse the side rant)

there are a lot of things venos with hercs can do that non-herc venos simply cant, like solo 3-1 1-2, 1-3 and a lot of the FB's and some quest bosses unless you are much higher level. there is no tank pet that comes close to herc. herc has the highest phys def of any pet besides phoenix, and comes with a buff that increases that defense by 150% (double and a half). and the same buff for magic defense, although a few pets have higher initial mag def, with the buff, there is no equal, unless you buy a rare skill scroll and put it on another pet. (see tweakz's posts)

they phys def will not be matched by anything you dont pay for.

but unless you are in a squad that want to reap the benefits of you paying the exorbitant price for your herc so they can heal less, or DD instead of tank, while not compensating you for the investment you made, a squad with a tank and a healer will not need the veno to be the tank and the healer, and you play the role of DD and debuffer, and lurer.
Hercs make the veno into a tank for most purposes, and make playing "solo-mode" that much easier, but they aren't required, and shouldn't be. And with prices for sof/pf being what they are, many veno's are choosing to forgo getting a herc, squad are just going to have to deal with the lack of herc venos at their level.

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear · December 2009

i've had this problem forever. if there are two venos a squad can choose from, the one with the herc gets picked every time, even if the squad has to wait forever for her to be free to help them. somewhere along the line, people have developed a mental block against caught pets, and only want CS ones, as being the only ones worth having. many barbs i know would rather have golems along rather than hercs, that steal aggro too often, or the veno isnt familiar with the finesse of handling the herc.

but this predijuce against venos without hercs really isnt fair, especially when the caught pets have had considerble leveling up and moves leveled.

FloraFang - Harshlands wrote: »

(srry if there is a thread somewhere like this)
well all i want to know is why is everyone convinced that a veno is no good without a herc?
it seems like every squad i get into the question do you have a herc comes up?
i'm like is a herc really tht important not every person who plays this game can afford such things.b:angry
Sure a herc will make things easier but there are other pets that are just as good( i hope i'm right). So far my volcanic has gotten me throught thick and thin, hell i ws even able to tank wyvern until our cleric that died got back before i died.
i just want to know what's your opinions on this matter.b:surrender

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver · December 2009

People just assume The Hercules/Phoenix are the best pets for every situation, because they have good stats and rare skills. I know that this isn't the case, though there have been many situations in which I wished I had a Hercules/Phoenix.

For instance, the new quest boss, General Feng. His amplify damage curse is very frustrating for pet tanks. Towards the end of he fight, he was hitting my newly leveled Glacial Walker for up to 2k per hit. A Hercules would have made that fight a breeze.

ravenlis · December 2009

SashaGray - Heavens Tear wrote: »

you're partly right. veno's without hercs are still very useful, there is nothing wrong with not getting one. squads that require the veno to have a herc, especially in TT are most likely the cleric and barb wanting to do less work. although even if herc tanks most of the TT barb will still want to claim first pick, then the 2 clerics, then veno classed as a DD, which is completely fooked.

Nah, I dibs the tanking drop pick and if they don't like it they can suck it up. Depending on the TT, the clerics still might get second pick, otherwise they drop back with the DDs too (same for the barb). b:victory This works even better for me since my Veno can tank 2-1 and 2-2 Wurlords and I'm not talking about with the pet either.

Imo, if people are really going to be so stubborn about what pets you're bringing into an instance, especially TT, they should ask for all of your pets, their lvls, and their skills. If you can't tank, fine, what's your best DPS pet? If you don't have a suitable DPS pet do you have one that is more helpful like say a Kowlin or something that comes with debuffs. They should be thankful for a veno, period. I mean, we have Amp, nothing else comes close to that! (Meaning you can't stack Extreme Poison with any other debuff that last as long as that one and get the same effect.)

Chobsi - Heavens Tear · December 2009

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear wrote: »

i've had this problem forever. if there are two venos a squad can choose from, the one with the herc gets picked every time, even if the squad has to wait forever for her to be free to help them. somewhere along the line, people have developed a mental block against caught pets, and only want CS ones, as being the only ones worth having. many barbs i know would rather have golems along rather than hercs, that steal aggro too often, or the veno isnt familiar with the finesse of handling the herc.

but this predijuce against venos without hercs really isnt fair, especially when the caught pets have had considerble leveling up and moves leveled.

My herc has never stolen aggro in a situation where aggro wasnt messed up b:surrender like TT, in which any pet using a skill will take aggro.
If a barb cant keep aggro off a herc then good luck with an archer or wizzie, bad barb.

tweakz · December 2009

Having a Herc shows that you either are good enough at gaming to earn one or are dedicated enough to buy one. If you think other pets are as good, but Herc just makes it easy: you're probably in the category of 'not knowing your class because you leveled the easy way'. This game is as simple or hard as you make it. A Herc can add variety to making it hard.

Herc is definitely not the best in all cases. I've found occasions where an Armored Bear, Eldergoth Marksman, Celestial Sting, and a Scorpion can out perform a Herc at certain tasks. None of them can replace a Herc or the usefulness of a Herc.

Lolite - Heavens Tear · December 2009

I remember back in my lvl60's and early lvl70s, almost every time when I got invited into a squad, the very first question was "Do you have a herc?" b:surrender

And even worse, I saw someone shouting "looking for a veno for bhxx." So I pmed that person and told him/her I am a veno. I got invited, and of course got asked again "do you have herc?" As soon as I answered no, I got kicked xD

"There is no such thing as venos... either herc, nix or failures..." b:surrender I remembered reading this somewhere on this forum=_=

I completely agree that many hercless venos are treated unfairly by other classes, when some of them clearly know how to play their class right instead of just having a cs pet. I remembered my friend told me about this veno sending in her herc to TT bosses everytime without buffing the herc xD And not even knowing what Amplify and Purge were...

While hercless venos were treated unfairly by other classes, I sometimes feel this hatred from hercless venos towards herc venos.. I've encountered several venos with either magmite or shaodu cubs telling me "showing off your herc much?" when I summon my herc during bh69-.-;;;

_Surreal_ - Heavens Tear · December 2009

lol a herc should have no chance of stealing aggro off a good barb...

ravenlis · December 2009

_Surreal_ - Heavens Tear wrote: »

lol a herc should have no chance of stealing aggro off a good barb...

Be sure, we are talking about a good barb. In TT it will not matter though. A pet generates more agro than anyone with its skill on. If the veno is smart enough to take it off (unless they are tanking) then the tank should have no problem holding agro.

tweakz · December 2009

Most venos out there aren't much more than a typical DD. They don't know how to play their complex class well. A poor player with a Herc can be far more valuable than an awesome player without. Many are showing their lack of knowing their class by denying this. The ones I always see boasting of things like "I got skills" , or "I'm just as good" do things like: a) fail to debuff b) meditate for MP when a Blue Ball is up. c) use a magmite on mag mobs d) grind with a Kowlin. Your ego is what's holding you back most.

Barbs, BMs, and Clerics want Venos with Hercs because it saves them money! If you don't know this simple fact: please learn your class better.

Marista - Lost City · December 2009

Hm, I've never had any actual trouble with this. I've had plenty of people ask me if I have a herc--and there have been times when I'm doing the asking to another veno, usually because it could save our squad the trouble of sitting around waiting for a barb to come by (BH59/69 Pyro mostly). That said, it's still quite a pain to have people to expect you to have--or want to have--herc. I can't count the number of times people of other classes have waved off my plans to get nix with "get herc first."

Certainly it makes sense, except... I have no interest in living inside instances at higher levels; I'll probably go pure PvP at low 9x. So nix makes a lot more sense, but very few people seem to get the idea that I might not think time spent unenjoyably in instances--doubly so with how visually unattractive herc is--is worth the reward to me, and so that money or coin spent on herc would be wasted. Is quite frustrating.

FloraFang - Harshlands · December 2009

tweakz wrote: »

Having a Herc shows that you either are good enough at gaming to earn one or are dedicated enough to buy one. If you think other pets are as good, but Herc just makes it easy: you're probably in the category of 'not knowing your class because you leveled the easy way'. This game is as simple or hard as you make it. A Herc can add variety to making it hard.

i hope thats not directed at me because i did not oracle like some ppl i endured the countless deaths and trails of doing all my quests and griding just to lvl. Before ieven started this game its been trouble for me to decide what build i wanted, so many ppl telling you one thing then another, i finally decided on LA whihc to me is a pretty nuetral build. And lets think about it who wants to spend hours trying to lvl a herc(that eventually may become useless for pvp)? as a matter of fact who has the time to sit at a computer for hours killing mobs just to get valuable drops?
its already hard enough to lvl and if it wasnt directed at me then srryb:bye
but anyway thats beside the point i didnt post this to argue with someone just to hear what others think about the whole a veno is no good without a herc mentality

Solandri - Heavens Tear · December 2009

tweakz wrote: »

Having a Herc shows that you either are good enough at gaming to earn one or are dedicated enough to buy one. If you think other pets are as good, but Herc just makes it easy: you're probably in the category of 'not knowing your class because you leveled the easy way'. This game is as simple or hard as you make it. A Herc can add variety to making it hard.

I think this is like stereotypes in RL. Stereotypes exist because they're somewhat true. But it's just wrong to apply something that's true 60%-70% of the time to 100% of the population. There are herc owners who just dumped lots of RL $$$ into the game and are pretty clueless. And there are people without hercs who really know how to play the class, but don't have enough time to grind all day and haven't quite figured out how to get cat shopping to work.

Most of the non-herc venos I've seen known their limits and try to play within them. I don't think I've met a single one who figures if a herc can do it, their magmite or cub can do it too. (Although I have talked over venos into trying things with the magmite or cub that we were doing with a herc. b:chuckle)

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver · December 2009

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think this is like stereotypes in RL. Stereotypes exist because they're somewhat true. But it's just wrong to apply something that's true 60%-70% of the time to 100% of the population. There are herc owners who just dumped lots of RL $$$ into the game and are pretty clueless. And there are people without hercs who really know how to play the class, but don't have enough time to grind all day and haven't quite figured out how to get cat shopping to work.

Most of the non-herc venos I've seen known their limits and try to play within them. I don't think I've met a single one who figures if a herc can do it, their magmite or cub can do it too. (Although I have talked over venos into trying things with the magmite or cub that we were doing with a herc. b:chuckle)

I managed to kill General Feng (level 54 quest boss; part of the tideborn elder quest chain) with my new Glacial Walker, after figuring only a herc could tank it. I was wrong, but it was also an extremely close fight, with the boss hitting for over 2k at times.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · December 2009

Let's put it this way.

Ran TT 2-1 today. Aggro'd three random trash mobs. Runewolves, I think.
The cleric and the barb went into complete panic mode. Roar and blue bubble.

Blue bubble. On trash mobs.

So after we clean up, there's a moment of shamefacedness whilst I explain that yes, I can happily tank that and the reply "Oh yeah, forgot you're using a herc"

Now either you can't do that without a herc (you can, you really really can) or your average party is really really REALLY risk averse and doesn't know what they're capable of.
And wants the best chance they can get.

And, yeah - by choice I'll squad with people I know. My second choice would have to be people with the best stuff. I mean, I'm not squadding with a cleric who doesn't have the top heal spells - why should they squad with a veno that doesn't have the best pet?

And yes - the herc isn't always the right pet to use, and yes, explaining that it is a pain.
But I would not enjoy lacking the OPTION to use the herc.

Solandri - Heavens Tear · December 2009

Vitenka - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Now either you can't do that without a herc (you can, you really really can) or your average party is really really REALLY risk averse and doesn't know what they're capable of.
And wants the best chance they can get.

That's it I think. People want to do it the easy way so much that they'll spend over an hour looking for a cleric+barb or veno w/ herc, instead of trying something with a slightly riskier group. It's like how people drive around for 15 minutes looking for the ideal parking space closest to the store, when they could've parked further away and walked the extra distance in 2 minutes.

Squeakytoy - Dreamweaver · December 2009

I'm still on the fence as to whether or not I should get a Hercules. I'm getting close to the point where I can afford one, but 60 million coins is quite a lot, and I'm just not sure if a pet is worth that hefty price tag.

LillyLane - Sanctuary · December 2009

veno is still helpful without a herc... its just the herc buffs allow your pet to handle much more dmg.. to be an off-tank, safety net, etc. Having a herc in a squad usually means its a safer squad to run with.. unless you know, the veno is brain dead.

kitoma · December 2009

I personally love having my herc. My faction does not have many barbs and finding good high lvl barbs is getting harder and harder. Since my playing style is about being as helpful as I can be and it is also my factions goal, helping people. So that said when I was in my lvl 5x I started going on TT runs as extra DD and noticed that they would always have to log another faction member in so that they could run the TT with her herc. It was a major problem of having only one barb in faction for a very long time. So I decided that I would get a herc and at level 70 I was able to tank some 3-1 bosses (being a pure magic veno with -chan helped a lot) which saved our squad a number of times from a full squad whipe (believe me your clerics will love you to pieces because it saves them a guardian scroll/exp and a res scroll).

I also now am able to tank 2-2 bosses which has come in handy for frenzy lion claw mat grinding (which every magic class user and there mother seems to need for TT80 magic sword.) However I find myself relying on other venos to lure for my herc. Herc is nice but if you have its bramble buff on you will be in trouble when you accidently lure all 4 mobs at you. Even if you cancel the bramble you have to deal with unsummoning herc then resummoning him in order for him to be "lure friendly". I love my non-herced venos to pieces because they can be far more useful at luring than me with my herc.

So those that are kicking you for not having a herc, they aren't worth your time. It very well could mean that they created their squad too hastily (aka just inviting anyone who PMed them instead of asking for their class before hand) so they need the herc in order to do the run or need a barb. Hopefully you don't have to worry about being kicked out of squads too often, I hate when it happens to people >>.

tweakz · December 2009

I wish kicking people out would be more common. Too many players that level too fast for their finances, too many that are lazy or too many that are ignorant. Most venos I see in practice don't seem to even have Amp, or Ironwood which should be required of a Veno in a Squad. Lurers aren't needed, Tanks and Healers are.

TrichterWeb - Sanctuary · December 2009

tweakz wrote: »

I wish kicking people out would be more common. Too many players that level too fast for their finances, too many that are lazy or too many that are ignorant. Most venos I see in practice don't seem to even have Amp, or Ironwood which should be required of a Veno in a Squad. Lurers aren't needed, Tanks and Healers are.

I agree that venos should have amp and ironwood as well. However I disagree that lurers aren't needed. There are spots in BH 51 and 59 that lurers ARE needed. Not to mention BH 69 pole and nob, and FB/BH 79. Sure you can do the 79 but everytime I've been there they want the lure rather than to go in and tank and heal.

Now if a veno doesn't have amp or ironwood then maybe they're new to the game, just tell them to go get them after the run. Don't just kick them that just leads to more ignorance. And definitly don't kick a person just because they don't have a herc. If you're looking for a herc bad enough then ask them BEFORE you invite and tell them that sadly you need a herc and give them a reason. Otherwise you just look like an ****.

JollyJaguar - Sanctuary · December 2009

Veno's are from origin supposed to be DDers/Debuffers anyways. Yes a herc will make it easier, but theres more then that ;]

Waterfal - Sanctuary · December 2009

I don't have a herc either. but if I want to do TT I always ask some friends to join in.(hates random squads) Being kicked out for not having a herc has never happened to meb:surrender
But I gues that'll come more at higher lvls.
going to get the unending task on me with saving for a herc when I hit 70 thoughb:bye
though I'm not doing this for 'I need a herc or I'll be no good and I'll be kicked out of squads' but more for my friends to be more helpfull with bosses and such. since they've always helped me toob:thanks

MozFirefox - Lost City · December 2009

I don't want a herc for the same reason I don't want a magmite(sp?)
Everyone has a one and I want to be unique. I want to choose a pet that suits me.
They just need to make some more powerful pets so we have some variety you know?

axt57 · December 2009

Most squads are like this:

http://i45.tinypic.com/21ce53n.jpg

I do not know these people. They do not know me. I have just joined the squad. They assume I have herc off the bat. As a high lvl veno, most people expect you to have herc without question.

I'm glad I do have one, however.

AngelOfLies - Heavens Tear · January 2010

i've always wanted a herc, my veno pretty much solos a ton of ****, so a herc would be smart for me just dont feel like grinding 80M or spending 200$ on one right now >.> but in my 60's i always asked when doing bh "Do any of u venos have a herc?" not like i expected them to tank it was just a nice thing to know, i mean it could save alot of us if barb died or cleric did, which would be me in alot of casses. but if veno didn't have herc i'd just shrug and bh would keep going. in one case on my veno squaded for bh39, was farren and trioc. it was me and another veno who had a herc from lvl 1. i had to leave early and cleric from guild said she had to lure everything. the veno only had 1 pet spot and had no f'in idea how to lure. so shows some venos with hercs r bad venos to begin with b:laugh

Damewort - Sanctuary · January 2010

I still think that later you get herc, better it is. Playing with "ordinary" pets teaches you more about class capabilities as you need to know which pet is good for which case, how to debuff to be good in squads. Herc instead horribly spoils. There have been cases when I have explained to lvl60+ veno what is amp, what is lending hand and why you cant bramble clerics/wizards/archers...

I got my herc at lvl89 or 88. And to be honest... I think my skills as veno has bit dropped or "changed". Game got too easy and simple, and in a way - more boring. I am glad I didnt get it earlier... I would have been considered as crappy veno otherwise

I think herc might be only needed for delta and for cases when barb/cleric wants to save up a bit. In other cases, herc with veno isnt really needed. Imo, skillful veno with pet can do more than herc with veno ^^

Fenian_I - Dreamweaver · January 2010

well, I'm not gonna quote anyone because this involves too many of the posts made...

Hmmm... let's start with the original question. Why do hercless venos get kicked from squads. Well, a veno that's using a herc doesn't need even CLOSE to the amount of skill as a hercless veno. When you get invited to a squad with people you don't know, how do you expect them to know you can handle the job? Are they just supposed to take your word for it? Let's say they do take your word for it and it turns out you couldn't handle it (resulting in a squad wipe). Now let's say some of those squad members don't have guardian scrolls. Do you guys realize how long it can take to get that exp back at the high lvls? Now, you might say that not having guardian scrolls would make you an idiot at that lvl. Well... I've heard people around here get accused of a lot of things... but being smart has never been one of the accusations. People get burned once or twice by hercless venos and they lose faith in them (and I can't say I really blame them... I'd be pretty mad if I lost all that exp on a lvl 9x char because the hercless veno thought they could handle the job).

As for a herc or nix not always being the best pet for the job... ummm... besides water mobs and pvp inside an instance such as SP, I can't think of any time where another pet would do better than both of those. I mean... sometime there might be a pet that's better than a herc for the job... or a pet that's better than a nix for the job... but I haven't seen a pet that's better than a herc AND a nix for any job besides those 2 examples I listed. For this reason, I will restate what I have said in another thread. I believe the best combo for pets is: herc, nix, kowlin, plumpfish. Not everyone can afford that, I understand, but I'm not talking about money. I'm strictly talking about performance.

For the person that was talking about getting a nix before getting a herc... that's completely your choice. The main reason a lot of venos get the herc first is for it's tanking ability. With a herc, you can start soloing TT and making enough money to buy a nix shortly thereafter. As you said, though, you are not interested in being inside instances very much, so maybe a nix is a better way for you to go. Just be ready to be booted from a few rebirth squads, TT squads, and FB/BH squads.

I don't want people to get the wrong impression from this post. I'm not saying that hercless venos are useless... and I'm not saying that having a herc makes you a good veno. I'm saying that having a herc lets you get the same job done with half the skill required. Anyone who disagrees with that is either a fool or has never seen a good herc in action.

tweakz · January 2010

Fenian_I - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Hmmm... let's start with the original question. Why do hercless venos get kicked from squads. Well, a veno that's using a herc doesn't need even CLOSE to the amount of skill as a hercless veno.

BS. Having a Herc adds to the dynamics of the game making skills play a bigger part.

When you get invited to a squad with people you don't know, how do you expect them to know you can handle the job? Are they just supposed to take your word for it? Let's say they do take your word for it and it turns out you couldn't handle it (resulting in a squad wipe). Now let's say some of those squad members don't have guardian scrolls. Do you guys realize how long it can take to get that exp back at the high lvls?

Much less time than people make it out to be. A single world quest covers a few deaths I believe.

As for a herc or nix not always being the best pet for the job... ummm... besides water mobs and pvp inside an instance such as SP, I can't think of any time where another pet would do better than both of those.

Maybe you lack the skills of having a Herc? Array Guards in OHT Kite. Using a ranged pet like an Ethereal Inamorato will take them down faster than a Herc or Nix can. Nix can also get stuck in the ground, or even glitch where it can't hit the mob it's getting hit by. It requires a lot of jumping when grinding ground mobs. On some terrain, the Nix is not ideal for grinding. Herc has buffs to make it a tank pet, and while a Scorpion may not have the raw DPS of a Herc, it can outdo it as a DD by using skills like Flesh Ream, Bash, Howl. Herc also fails as a luring pet, as an Armored Bear is faster with equivalent survivability, and a ranged pet spends far less time in aggro zone with the ability to avoid obstacles. Ranged pets also give you more distance between you and the target lure while preventing kiting. Ranged pets can also tank some World Bosses and other bosses that same level Hercs cannot.

I mean... sometime there might be a pet that's better than a herc for the job... or a pet that's better than a nix for the job... but I haven't seen a pet that's better than a herc AND a nix for any job besides those 2 examples I listed. For this reason, I will restate what I have said in another thread. I believe the best combo for pets is: herc, nix, kowlin, plumpfish.

I don't think the Kowlin is best at anything. It comes with valuable debuffs making it a bargain debuff pet, but it's far from the best you could have.

i just don't get why @_@

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