Moron Barbs

Telarith - Sanctuary · November 2009

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Sad?

I'm almost hurt =(

Meant for an archer not to know the formulas posted in their own forum. Personally, I love that post made in there, and have made a few posts in archer forum when a couple didn't understand how sharpy worked. It cleared things up, and had archers polish the formula up more for them, so that even more people understood how their class worked. Which is one thing I am always for. Past ignorance is passing, willingness to learn trumps everything. If someone fights learning, I don't bother with them outside of amusement factor.

Jewyman - Sanctuary · November 2009

Past ignorance is passing, willingness to learn trumps everything. If someone fights learning, I don't bother with them outside of amusement factor.

Also funny when you dismissed fact that you could easily be out DD'd. Playing trivia master to change the subject doesnt change facts there either.

Filet - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Not sure why you are posting, as you don't know mechanics of the game. You think slings can have 5 attacks per second with speed buffs and -interval, and didn't have a clue how much -interval would be needed for that. Or that speed buffs have diminishing returns on interval.

You posted that damage + aggro skills of barb is greater at tanking than a proper fist BM, which is false as even sub-level gear steals aggro for them when the barb is doing their proper role. Their aggro on skills is what helps their lower damage maintain aggro from higher damage DDs. But it also sets a ceiling on how much damage can be dealt safely without aggro grab. If the BM is able to consistently maintain a damage output higher than the aggro + dmg of the barb, then of course they will be better to have as tank. It means the rest of the DDs can deal more damage than if a barb were tanking. And even a good barb is limited by the fact that the aggro of the skill can't be improved any by better play, it is set.

Again, you didn't factor sparking into the damage at all. And the speed boost of demon spark is greater effect on fists than on a bow. So considering how much spark coverage also changes who deals better damage.

And, really, gloom adds 100%? At this point, you just know too little about your own class weapons to comment on anyone else's class. Drift kid, drift.

No just because a fist bm can keep aggro better than a barb does not mean that they should be tanking. A fist bm with only 5k hp is not going to be reliable as a tank for belial, don't just blame it on the cleric not knowing attack speed formulas or some other stupid **** like that if you die. Some bosses simply require a tank with a ton of hp because they do so much damage. At that point it doesn't matter who does more damage or who can hold aggro better, it's the DD's job to hold back so that the tank with high hp can maintain aggro, that way the party doesn't wipe. Realize that when you're in a squad killing a boss, the priority is keeping the squad alive. If you auto attacking steals aggro from the barb then don't attack all the time, if you steal aggro and get the entire party killed then it's YOUR fault. It's absolutely amazing how arrogant you are, I'm so glad you're on a different server I feel sorry for the people in a squad with you.

Jewyman - Sanctuary · November 2009

And, really, gloom adds 100%? At this point, you just know too little about your own class weapons to comment on anyone else's class. Drift kid, drift.

I just noticed this lol. Legerity did for a fact say it was a 100% weapon attack bonus. Look how many other posters here besides the indifferent ones are calling you an egomaniac.

Telarith - Sanctuary · November 2009

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Essentially, this post is a wake-up call to all groups forming for BH quests to take a good BM and just not invite barbs.

1st post for note, why people mention TTs so often, dunno. As for survival and not knowing about that, 2nd post.

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Tanking is also about one thing: surviving. Even crappy aggro management can succeed if the tank can survive. And I have tanked a few BH69s with low lvl 8X single clerics in the squad no problem; the good ones don't even have my charm tick. Now if the cleric is bad or has an internet problem, barb might be better. Or a better cleric or cleric with better internet connection, depends how hard up the group is.

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Furhter EDIT: Re-read 1st post, and it does sound more like against barbs who assume they are the focal point of all party formation. Which is why making sure they are not part of the strat for the party in any way, shape, fashion, or form is there. If the barb absolutely must be tank, the other classes should know that. But for FBs, they aren't needed. So why focus it around them. Just a common sense way of looking at it I guess. And if a barb tanking means slower killing, then it is stupid to have them do it. Barb can simply be DD at that point.

So this seems to have just come on without reading or comprehending the posts:

Filet - Heavens Tear wrote: »

No just because a fist bm can keep aggro better than a barb does not mean that they should be tanking. A fist bm with only 5k hp is not going to be reliable as a tank for belial, don't just blame it on the cleric not knowing attack speed formulas or some other stupid **** like that if you die. Some bosses simply require a tank with a ton of hp because they do so much damage. At that point it doesn't matter who does more damage or who can hold aggro better, it's the DD's job to hold back so that the tank with high hp can maintain aggro, that way the party doesn't wipe. Realize that when you're in a squad killing a boss, the priority is keeping the squad alive. If you auto attacking steals aggro from the barb then don't attack all the time, if you steal aggro and get the entire party killed then it's YOUR fault. It's absolutely amazing how arrogant you are, I'm so glad you're on a different server I feel sorry for the people in a squad with you.

And with this post, it goes back to what I mentioned. If a Fister BM can tank, then they will help more since the DDs don't need to hold back as much. For squad TTs, I don't really care, as that will be done solo with my 2nd account cleric, as already stated. But as stated REPEATEDLY, if a BM can consistently maintain aggro over a barb spamming aggro skills, and the BM can survive, it is better for the BM to tank as they raise how much damage the other DDs do before stealing aggro. And that is in addition to more damage from the tank.

Elenacostel - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

1st post for note, why people mention TTs so often, dunno. As for survival and not knowing about that, 2nd post.

I mentioned TT because of this question you posed here:

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

So, the good fist BM can out-tank a good barb with sub-rate gear. Does anyone here; again, only people who actually understand physical damage formula coupled with -interval and speed buffs, actually believe a great barb will hold aggro better than a fist BM? Of course not.

This question did not seem limited to BH runs.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Due to PMs in game, allow me to mention this:

If I ask you what the speed effect is at a set amount of -interval on fists, and you don't know the answer, don't PM me about what class out-damages fisters. Again, if you don't know the main mechanic of all fisters, your comparison is trash. I will go with it until amusement ends, then blacklist. I don't care about uneducated opinions.

b:pleased

Can you start with blacklisting this forum?

RedMenace

\leaving the conversation as it turns to the pros-and-cons of "fists" and "-ing" specifically
\\still think you have a chip on your shoulder the size of a sheet of plywood
\\\frankly not impressed at the tantrum

Bebisita - Dreamweaver · November 2009

It helps to have relations with the most awesome barb ever (Bebo). b:victory

Mad_Doc - Sanctuary · November 2009

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

Due to PMs in game, allow me to mention this:

If I ask you what the speed effect is at a set amount of -interval on fists, and you don't know the answer, don't PM me about what class out-damages fisters. Again, if you don't know the main mechanic of all fisters, your comparison is trash. I will go with it until amusement ends, then blacklist. I don't care about uneducated opinions.

May I remind everyone that Telarith isn't very high lvl. He hasn't done the upper lvl TT, FB/BHs, warsong, etc... yet. Maybe one day when he gets up there he may see things differently. But until he experience pure dex demon archer with TT100 bow, he will just keep to his opinions. But hey, no one is wrong, we just see and experience things differently from each other. ^^

Retias - Sanctuary · November 2009

Barbs = tankers
BMs = dders and second tanks in case something go wrong

Every time you say that a fist bms can tank better than a barb, you say that the barb is or a moron or a good barb with crappy gears.

But what about the GOOD barbs with GOOD gears and most importantly GOOD skills in aggro management. I dont think that a fist bm can tank better than a barb like this.

But thats only my opinion, idk how to play a barb cause i dont have one, my bm is still low lvl and my main is a veno.

Another thing, this thread is turning into a war... o.o'

rayne36 · November 2009

"barbs are tanks, tanking is done in tiger form. end of story"

Wrong. With a smart/well built cleric, (and using my own potions/apothecary items my significant other makes for me, etc.), I can tank in my regular form. Subsequently I crush bosses much faster.

Part of the outcome is based on what you do, the rest is based on your squad mates. TEAMWORK for the win. You are not the end all of the party, and you are not infallible because you have a lot of money to spend on HP charms.

Piliener - Lost City · November 2009

I can't go without barb's anymore. I steal way to much agg if they're not arround and sometimes even if they are. These are people who are skilled in keeping agg as they were more than capable when I was 7x, but once 8x hit I need both the barb and bm competing for agg essentially otherwise I die. Again personal experiences, but imo a bad barb who can spam some agg skills will keep me and the ep around better than a good bm. They just don't have the skills to keep agg and out DD the DDers.

Telarith - Sanctuary · November 2009

Mad_Doc - Sanctuary wrote: »

May I remind everyone that Telarith isn't very high lvl. He hasn't done the upper lvl TT, FB/BHs, warsong, etc... yet. Maybe one day when he gets up there he may see things differently. But until he experience pure dex demon archer with TT100 bow, he will just keep to his opinions. But hey, no one is wrong, we just see and experience things differently from each other. ^^

While I do consider 99 our best level spot, I wouldn't really call almost lvl 90 low level. But I suppose everyone has their own idea of what constitutes low level and high level. Wouldn't have thought it jumped in so few levels though.

Baalbak - Dreamweaver · November 2009

can a fist (or any) BM hold agro over a higher level DD that would be totally inappropriate to have as a tank?

I can

can a fist (or any) BM hold agro over essentially an entire room of mobs when people do stupid stuff?

I can

Hell, I've gone on what was supposed to be a "free run" for a cleric friend's fb39. when I asked for a veno (to pull) one of the team mates brought in a 7x herc veno, who brought in a 7x BM. ****e was pure mayhem, and there I was cleaning up the mess. just because someone is high level and uses fancy AOE skills, doesn't make them tank material. You gotta be able to hold agro at all times on all mobs - even if your pure build DD's are each attacking a different mob. Can a BM's AoE attacks do that against higher level wizards and archers?

Mad_Doc - Sanctuary · November 2009

Telarith - Sanctuary wrote: »

While I do consider 99 our best level spot, I wouldn't really call almost lvl 90 low level. But I suppose everyone has their own idea of what constitutes low level and high level. Wouldn't have thought it jumped in so few levels though.

If you can tank warsong and lunar glade instead of a barb, then I'll say you are better than most barbs your lvl. But even at 89 and with only 5k hp, the high lvl bosses you can tank are very few.

Beatrixxx - Lost City · November 2009

rayne36 wrote: »

"barbs are tanks, tanking is done in tiger form. end of story"

Wrong. With a smart/well built cleric, (and using my own potions/apothecary items my significant other makes for me, etc.), I can tank in my regular form. Subsequently I crush bosses much faster.

Part of the outcome is based on what you do, the rest is based on your squad mates. TEAMWORK for the win. You are not the end all of the party, and you are not infallible because you have a lot of money to spend on HP charms.

again u CANNOT POSSIBLY keep the aggro away from a FIST bm if he spark-auto atack(if he is equal level with equal gear) because u dont have the agrro skills in human form(cept the genie but thats just not enough) game mechanics ppl a barb in human form simply cant out dd a fist bm... to keep the aggro away he needs to use the skills(that is the purpose of said skills)

XbladeXBm - Dreamweaver · November 2009

Moron Barb Vs A good Bm = Go with the Bm

Good Barb Vs A moron Bm = Go with the barb

Moron Barb Vs A moron Bm = Go with the Barb

Good Bm Vs Good barb = Your lucky day, either will do

Lyritha - Heavens Tear · November 2009

This brings up an interesting question : how willing would you be to let a heavy veno tank it using bramble hood and alpha male? I had recently started building one just for that purpose : tanking.

So how many have came across that type of tank?

Also I love how people think a barb is needed to tank weaker stuff like the non-AOE bosses in the fb59... it is just a laugh.

"We cannot do this without a barb!!!" cleric leave... for god sakes people

_DarkSeph_ - Sanctuary · November 2009

To put it this way, it all comes down to skill and knowing your class.

Of course an amazing BM tanks better than a moron nub barb. An amazing barb will tank better than any BM though. And fist's aren't some kind of godly agro holding weapons, despite being very good at it. I've seen it tested before with same level decent archer vs BM having an agro war, the BM gets owned.

On topic for fb69, never take an ego inflated barb or offer free wine, ever. Especially if you have a veno. Maxed bramble guard on any BM will hold agro like nothing else. I've had so many barbs ask in then demand free wine, and I just ignore them and tank myself. It's funny hearing the abusive language, the "good luck without me" or the "I haz repair bill" excuse.
A few fb69's ago, I actually got asked to tank instead of the barb for having more HP and better healing ability (I have about 5 different ways of healing myself at once in emergency.

So yeh, to sum it up. A decent barb is a better overall tank, but a moron big-headed barb is easily replaced by a BM. If you're offering free wine for a ego-barb to do your bh, when there's a whole range of alternative options, your loss.

IDaun - Dreamweaver · November 2009

I once had a Cleric leave on an FB39 because she wanted a barb and said we couldn't do the FB39 without one. Our Squad?

Level 39 Barb
Level 4x Veno
Level 4x Veno
Level 5x Veno <-- me!
Level 6x Veno

Note that I could solo FB39 at that time (used up a lot of Jiaozi on Farren's AoE, though). When I PM'd her? "Only barbs can tank. Every other squad I've been in without a barb I've died in."

Kwandelan - Heavens Tear · November 2009

lol...Since from the first post itself, all I see is a flame thread against Barbs...
Even the one who has started the thread has made it not to show how good Fist BMs are, BUT to say that Barbs suck...I find it funny the Clerics & Barbs fighting over each other's costs per Bounty run & pointing out other negative points of each other's class...There r very few replies to this thread that have stuck to the point abt Fist BMs as good tanks themselves. Sorry, not few, they r RARE
I guess the thread-starter must be feeling satisfied & happy now, seeing how many think barbs "suck" compared to other classes coz their dmg is low..

Even the thread's name makes me laugh....stupid noobs think they are good at starting 'debates' to prove their point how Fist BMs rock & "Barbs r ****"...feeling proud of having so many replies to ur thread, eh?

Oichii - Dreamweaver · November 2009

As an archer, I would prefer a Barb over a BM to tank any Boss FB69 or above. I have seen too many moron BMs and very few stupid Barbs. I can also assure you that very few BMs actually know their class. Most BMs I have grouped with either just rush to kill everything or get the Party wipeout by aggroing way too many mobs that they can't handle.

Leave the Tanking to the Class that does it best b:victory Sure FB69 and 79 might be tanked by BMs but I doubt you would say the same thing once you see the Bosses in FB89 and FB99, especially a few bosses in FB99 Heaven where a Barbarian is a must, with the boss hitting like 6K+.

AlbireoTwo - Lost City · November 2009

Good barb > Good BM at tanking. End of discussion.

Buttworm - Dreamweaver · November 2009

I've seen not a few BMs 78-82 level range, tanking BH69 with one cleric and they did very well.
As for holding aggro from same level/higher DDs, that go full attack - no way. Only if a DD has low level weapon, or crappy one and/or doing little breaks between his attacks, cutting his DPS a bit.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear · November 2009

rayne36 wrote: »

"barbs are tanks, tanking is done in tiger form. end of story"

Wrong. With a smart/well built cleric, (and using my own potions/apothecary items my significant other makes for me, etc.), I can tank in my regular form. Subsequently I crush bosses much faster.

Part of the outcome is based on what you do, the rest is based on your squad mates. TEAMWORK for the win. You are not the end all of the party, and you are not infallible because you have a lot of money to spend on HP charms.

Since you haven't bothered to identify your class (or server, for that matter) we have no idea if you have a clue.

It's not really that hard to fill in the info - unless you *need* to stay Anonymous for Security Reasons.

RedMenace

\not at all impressed

Wolverin_e - Lost City · November 2009

Hey all I was reading this topic and wana ask ppls what they think for the opposite side of this topic-lemme claryfy-I never acted like god or smg just because Im tank-I always paid in my BH parties etc..tanked a lot of bosses for helping ppls and I dont mind it...but seeing ur helpful ppl really go and dance on ur head if u got what I mean-they sometimes spam me like hell-kill me this and that and as many of u mentioned a skilled BM can tank just fine most of the bosses-so I just wana say-ppls try to ease the helpful barbs a bit-a lots of bms r also good tanks-as for the they-think-they -r-all barbs-guys u r not irreplaceble!

XylolyX - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Wolverin_e - Lost City wrote: »

Hey all I was reading this topic and wana ask ppls what they think for the opposite side of this topic-lemme claryfy-I never acted like god or smg just because Im tank-I always paid in my BH parties etc..tanked a lot of bosses for helping ppls and I dont mind it...but seeing ur helpful ppl really go and dance on ur head if u got what I mean-they sometimes spam me like hell-kill me this and that and as many of u mentioned a skilled BM can tank just fine most of the bosses-so I just wana say-ppls try to ease the helpful barbs a bit-a lots of bms r also good tanks-as for the they-think-they -r-all barbs-guys u r not irreplaceble!

Good point.

Angel__sora - Sanctuary · November 2009

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Since you haven't bothered to identify your class (or server, for that matter) we have no idea if you have a clue.

It's not really that hard to fill in the info - unless you *need* to stay Anonymous for Security Reasons.

RedMenace

\not at all impressed

I'd have thought "I can tank in my regular form" would be a dead giveaway that he's a barb. Server really doesn't matter as the bosses are the same regardless.

Heartstone - Dreamweaver · November 2009

If you look at the posts and comment you'll see that the "moron barb" chit is mostly from Sanct, alot less on HT. not seen thread bout anythign bad from DW or LC/HL.
did Sanct die on Barbs (amount) so they think they'r better or what?

Angel__sora - Sanctuary · November 2009

Heartstone - Dreamweaver wrote: »

If you look at the posts and comment you'll see that the "moron barb" chit is mostly from Sanct, alot less on HT. not seen thread bout anythign bad from DW or LC/HL.
did Sanct die on Barbs (amount) so they think they'r better or what?

I see plenty of barbs around so they didn't die in amount. Probably just in quality. I'd rather have one good barb than ten fail barbs.

Moron Barbs

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