Moron Barbs

Dominatiger - Sanctuary · November 2009

if in the BH you have an archer or wizzard level 89 demon, I am sure theres a party wipe in there if Bm tanks... they wont be able to get the agro, even barbs spamming flesh ream have hard times...

But BMs can tank easy if the rest of squad is below his level.

besides when the cennequs debuff, he can 2 shot a BM...

Miugre - Heavens Tear · November 2009

@Redmenace, If you could tear yourself away from dutifully insulting the OP for a moment... you may realize that her post was not about "bad" barbs, it was about egotistical barbs... definite difference.

But more importantly, your devotion to the "one method that works" theory is just laughable. Sometimes it's not about statistical perfection. If a BM wants to tank and is capable, ffs let them tank. It's not going to hurt anyone. Against the right bosses, wizards and clerics are also more appropriate tanks than you. You are not the alpha and omega of tanking.

You also seem to forget that there are plenty of people who don't use charms, therby making it... let's just say "unnecessary" to rage at your cleric whenever your HP drops near half (if anyone ever does that to a cleric in my party, they get booted, I don't care if we wipe as a result... you don't treat your cleric that way).

Oh, and thanks so much for implying that factionless people are worthless "strays." I'd forgotten that our only purpose in this game is to be a statistically-perfect asset to our faction. Won't happen again.

Vitenka - Dreamweaver · November 2009

Mmm, I rarely see the tank bothering to tell the cleric whether they have a charm or not. That's a useful tip.

If you're not charmed, then it's much more important to stop you dropping to zero - but hey! You've got almost twice as many HP to play with - the slower heals can be used sometimes!

If you are charmed, then need to keep you above half, but it's not such a disaster if you tick.

There's basically two barbs I'll trust to tank anything and everything. One BM and one cleric I know are good at tanking. (Crazy cleric! I'm not just talking tanking caster bosses here...)
Everyone else, I need to be ready for disaster.

Though I will say a good cleric makes up for many faults in a tank.

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear · November 2009

why is this flaming thread stil around its full off complaints and drama
if people think barbs are not so great let them just dont put up a QQ thread on the forums i fully agree that fail barbs are worse then good bm tanks

but really people let this flame thread die its not gonna bring any good

Saitada - Sanctuary · November 2009

My Herc can tank most bosses I have had to deal with. A few I have needed a Cleric/Mage, a few I have needed a Barb and a few I have had the help of Blademasters that played their toons well.

I think that the tank is more dependent on the situation than on any particular class. I have seen Bosses nearly toast a heavy tank build barb but barely touched the cleric when agro shifted to them. Seen the same with other classes as well.

Your tank should be dependent on what Boss and Damage type your up against. Any intelligent group will know this and adjust accordingly.

~Saitada

CaveBear - Sanctuary · November 2009

Why don't barbs have a FB and BH free week b:pleased. Everybody should have a vacation once in a while right?
Lets just do one week where all barbs go for (makes a hippie face) "LOVE b:cute and PEACE!"b:victory and let's pick flowers instead...well that is mats. Mats prices are right no amazingly high...we don't get any hard feelings from anybody by doing so and we get richer in process allowing us to raise some funds for future runs. And after the refreshing week of geology, botanics and tranquility...not to mention good trade ^^, we'll resume the usual runs.

Terrificly bad idea b:chuckle ...or is it?

Saitada - Sanctuary · November 2009

CaveBear - Sanctuary wrote: »

Why don't barbs have a FB and BH free week b:pleased. Everybody should have a vacation once in a while right?
Lets just do one week where all barbs go for (makes a hippie face) "LOVE b:cute and PEACE!"b:victory and let's pick flowers instead...well that is mats. Mats prices are right no amazingly high...we don't get any hard feelings from anybody by doing so and we get richer in process allowing us to raise some funds for future runs. And after the refreshing week of geology, botanics and tranquility...not to mention good trade ^^, we'll resume the usual runs.

Terrificly bad idea b:chuckle ...or is it?

Love...... and Peace.....

/me flees this thread in terror!

~Saitada

Jhaernyl - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Fist Bm's can tank, but one downside .. unless heavily refined OMG they are squishy which makes them a liability. No point having a tank that alot of later bosses can 1 or 2 shot, puts the squad as a whole at risk.

Your tank should be dependent on what Boss and Damage type your up against. Any intelligent group will know this and adjust accordingly.

+1

Bowlinbob - Lost City · November 2009

Jhaernyl - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Fist Bm's can tank, but one downside .. unless heavily refined OMG they are squishy which makes them a liability. No point having a tank that alot of later bosses can 1 or 2 shot, puts the squad as a whole at risk.

recently solo healed a bh69 with a high 8x bm, but got unlucky... Somehow he said he got hit for roughly 7k damage as i was purifying. I didn't even know this was possible tbh. It resulted in a party wipe.

Paulita - Dreamweaver · November 2009

I normally dont like tanking because I hate paying repair costs b:shocked but when I do get asked to tank, i don't complain much if my charm ticks. I bought the charm and I know what it is for. Its my emergency backup food supplier just in case I or the cleric cant heal me fast enough. I don't understand why people get mad because of charm ticks...why did you buy it for then? Just for tw and pvp i guess. But it is also designed to be used to help others. At least that is how I look at it.

I like Barbs as tanks and BMs can sometimes tank but I prefer the hp of barbs. It is just more reliable. Sure i know bms can hold aggro well sometimes and I never knew fist bms hold aggro well. Thats a new one for me since I usually take it away from them during their tank attempts. I use spears btw and i was told we suck, but i just like the way they lookb:cry I can't speak for dualblade bms tanking though because I have never seen it

Alvena - Sanctuary · November 2009

I remember a BH once I did a while back. The Cleric was killing Celestial fishes, she died and the other one went and res'd her. The Barb and Wiz had started clearing so I headed in while another Cleric res'd the others. I decided to wait just incase we ran and waited at the boss and the Clerics got into any trouble.

A few minutes into the run the Barb was like "Can you kick Alvena, she isnt doing anything? And I was like, wth - Im waiting. So I decided I'd run in so I didnt get kicked (Clerics still werent there), We had a bit of an argument, my main point in saying it wasnt my fault he was so impatient and didnt wait for the Clerics, He was tanking 3 monsters and I went in to do my "job" and he died, Wiz died, then I died. He then continued to blame me and insult me with insults that did'nt really make sence, I still continued to tell him he could've just waited. Eventually the Clerics got there and we got res'd - I called him stupid and he was like "Fine, fail your BH - You'll all die without me."

End of the story goes that we actually didnt die after that and a very nice little Wiz tanked with ease~

Im not saying all Barbs are bad, I have some absolutely lovely friends and my faction leader, she is an epic Barb. And I got BM's who are epic tanks. Heck, Really - I've seen at least every class tank a BH/FB/TT in my time.

I agree that Barbs arent nessesary.

The ones that are too impatient to wait, or complain about their charms ticking gotta remember that we're all human

Sure - Clerics are expected to be right on the money, but factor in Lag - real life inturruptions..etc. And the exp some lose during squad wipes - just for the sake of ressurecting the rest of the squad. $:\$

Anywho, Im just ranting. Go all class Tankers

Knownase - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Why is this thread open still, I thought we agreed it doesnt matter lol

On Topic: All bosses are different, tactics is the key, yup yup. As long as the party doesnt die, say ty to the tank (reguardless of class) and clericb:thanks

Saitada - Sanctuary · November 2009

Knownase - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Why is this thread open still, I thought we agreed it doesnt matter lol

On Topic: All bosses are different, tactics is the key, yup yup. As long as the party doesnt die, say ty to the tank (reguardless of class) and clericb:thanks

Exactly. W/O the tank (regardless of what class it is), and w/o the cleric, ya might just have problems. Be happy there are people willing to help you, try not to be arrogant if your helping others, remember that we are all replaceable, smile for the camera, and kick butt!

~Saitada

Barbariankev - Heavens Tear · November 2009

a barb can get a moron very easily since we get to much free being skilled is nice but stil your altitude as skilled barb can easily turn you into a moron
everyone saying you are good really easily makes you think that you are good and so can unskil you and make you an ****
i remembered this after i done a 2-2 with lvl 96 herc veno she tanked all except wurlord and got the pick as tank while i got last i bursted in rage off it not on a very bad way to others but anyway after it i decided to write this cause i now know im not a god again which feels pretty good and freed

so just dont give barbs everything free and kick them if they demand it
and a good bm thats cheaper then a good and i want everything free barb
then bm>barb

Tremblewith - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Okay to the OP:

Firstly, as a Barb - I hold aggro better than a BM. Pure fact. Sorry, you don't like it GTFO ^^.

Secondly, there are as many "moron" barbs as there are "moron" BMs, or "moron" Wizzys.... The point is, people are stupid everywhere.... Get used to it.

Thirdly, keep callin' out Barbs for being morons, and your going to get flammers and haters. Welcome to the real world.

And finally, Barbs aren't DD.... They can assist in DD if they aren't tanking, but they should never be considered DD.

/endpost

rayne36 · November 2009

Your tank should be dependent on what Boss and Damage type your up against. Any intelligent group will know this and adjust accordingly. - The person who said this is very smart

My main character is a hybrid build barbarian, level 58 as of yesterday. I know what I'm doing and I built myself to deal lots of damage very quickly. The only real problem I've encountered is a cleric in a recent boss party who dicked around, needing to be baby-sat and told what to do with instructions that made me feel like I was an elementary school teacher. Anyway...

I'm not saying their isn't elitism in my class, but there is elitism in any class. (Save for maybe Archers, as I almost never hear them boasting about what they can do. I haven't played mine yet so I don't really know anything about them. Saw one tank a boss once... that was interesting, we won easily)

The main point here is that if you're a barbarian and think you are the end all of classes, think again. The expansion coming out will drastically change what makes a truly good party, and without a proper Cleric (or a horde of different kinds of healing items), you're just a another dead guy laying on a dungeon floor being tea bagged by bosses and angry squad mates.

If you're in a party with a barbarian who says you will fail without him and thinks he deserves special treatment, then you picked the wrong barbarian.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

@Redmenace, If you could tear yourself away from dutifully insulting the OP for a moment... you may realize that her post was not about "bad" barbs, it was about egotistical barbs... definite difference..

Op was raging on all barbs - not just egotistical ones. His froth was pointed at the concept many share that each class has a role in which they play best - and many people assume they should do that. I still call screaming at people who are trying to do what they do best, insulting and egotistical.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

@But more importantly, your devotion to the "one method that works" theory is just laughable. Sometimes it's not about statistical perfection. If a BM wants to tank and is capable, ffs let them tank. It's not going to hurt anyone. Against the right bosses, wizards and clerics are also more appropriate tanks than you. You are not the alpha and omega of tanking...

Here's what I said:

Any given comparable level BM/Wiz/Archer in a boss-killing squad is a much better DD that I am. *My* job is to keep the boss busy while the real Damage Dealers kill it. If you want to tank the $#@*&% boss because it gives you a thrill, Knock youself out.

I know now, and have known, plenty of BM's and archers and Wiz's who are I'm perfectly happy to let tank if they wish. Most of em are damn good at it. If they want to practice, or "Let's try this" on a boss, fine! As long as I don't get caught in a party-wipe and lose exp in the process, it sounds like fun to me!

At no point did I ever say "No, you idiot - you can't do that - you're to squishy". If that makes you happy, so be it. I would love to have the opportunity to DD once in a while, and I love watching the team work for once, instead of being stuck in the boss's crotch for 10 minutes. My problem is with OP screaming about one or 2 irritating barbs, and generalizing that instantly, all barbs are "get out of the way, I'm here!" @ssclowns.

I'm not even generalizing at BM's - cause I know a lot of great ones.

Just *this* clown.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You also seem to forget that there are plenty of people who don't use charms, therby making it... let's just say "unnecessary" to rage at your cleric whenever your HP drops near half (if anyone ever does that to a cleric in my party, they get booted, I don't care if we wipe as a result... you don't treat your cleric that way).

Okay, now you're just projecting. Making up opinions for me is not needed - I'll be happy to give them to you for free, if you bother to ask.

I defy *any* cleric to tell me I have raged at them for charm ticks. I have 2 clerics on 2 different servers of my own, and I damn sure don't b*tch at them for doing a thankless job with few rewards, like saving my fuzzy behind.

Now, if I show up for a BH or FB run, and the cleric informs me, @ the boss, "I'm a full attack cleric - I only have IronHeart 1" (actually happened to me once in a TT, fer FSM's sake) - then I leave. If I wined it, then I boot them and replace them with a cleric to heal the party. If it's a cave that requires anyone but a pet to tank the boss, then I believe we need a healing cleric.

Sorry if that offends you. Good luck finding someone to back up your allegation.

Miugre - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Oh, and thanks so much for implying that factionless people are worthless "strays." I'd forgotten that our only purpose in this game is to be a statistically-perfect asset to our faction. Won't happen again.

You know as well as I do, that if you pick up random people at the Bounty Hunter, or at the cave entrance, you have no idea what you are gonna get. Anytime I have to do that (and believe me, i still occasionally do) the layout and roles of all are discussed before we enter the cave - just to make sure everyone is happy and the BH goes smoothly.

If you brought one of your friends in to a BH, and he acted like that, would you keep him on your friends list? I doubt it.

And if it matters at all, I played this gave from the beginning factionless, and joined a faction at lvl 64. Factionless are not strays - but don't you prefer your friends? Don't you trust them more? Isn't that why they're your friends?

RedMenace

\still happy he doesn't have to meet OP
\\can't run a pet, can't heal people, not much else I can do but hit things - sorry
\\\never said you couldn't do whatever you want to do, just please dont get me killed in the process

_River - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

i really don't think a high dex barb evades much from bosses that it would make a difference on the repair bill...i've noticed that bosses have much higher hitrate than mobs, evidenced by the fact that evasion absolutely never helped me in bossfights that i've had to tank (although drum's AOE misses me pretty often) however high this barb's evasion is, it's sure as hell not as high as mine, so i really doubt bosses miss much on him, unless we can hear it from the barb himself. mobs i can believe, but not bosses.

Erm... I guess you didn't see that I was talking about Signako.... he's not a barb in the slightest. He's a high dex, tank build BM (blademaster). I've watched his screen as he's tanked and I see quite a few misses not just from mobs, but also from bosses.

And a side note, I'm a light armor veno and drum's aoe misses me quite frequently as well as feng's aoe. So that's not exactly a great comparison.

Saitada - Sanctuary · November 2009

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Lotsa writing

My experience with Barbs that know what they can, and can't do, has been that they are more than willing to let a little experimentation in a decent squad happen like you described. My experience with barbs that have a towering ego is they usually (not always) are about 15 years old, think they are invincible, and toss a tantrum if they don't get their way.

Like you with a **** cleric, they don't stay around long.

I have had two barbs throw a raging hissy fit when their charm got ticked because they had a bad pull (by refusing to let ME single pull from a nasty cluster of mobs). If you have seen how I chew people on the forums... I'm polite here compared to what I did to them in squad chat.

ANY barb that throws a hissy about their charm ticking with a boss... You better be damn happy I'm not your cleric. I'd stop healing you and let you die. Charms are there to be used. You have no problem with the Cleric chewing their charms up to keep you alive... then suck it up and shut up if they miss a skill, or have to purify and don't get back to healing fast enough to keep your charm from ticking. It's there to help keep you alive. Be glad it is.

Red, you sound like a damn good Barb. At least one who knows that chit happens, and doesn't get pissy about it. Wish ya was on Sanctuary, I'd FB, TT, BH with you any day.

~Saitada

HolyInferno - Sanctuary · November 2009

Belkas - Lost City wrote: »

Wow, you sure know your PWI. Enjoy the boner you get from knowing this useless information. This is a game not a math course. It's d-bags like you that give MMO's and the people that play them for fun a bad name. Might be good for you to get out once in a while...you clearly take this game way too seriously.b:thanksb:bye

You're an idiot. Continue to faceroll your way through this game^^

sylvae: i thought you were just ranting to me when you pm'ed me about this. didnt think you would rant all over the forums. It was an interesting read, but i love how the thread got hit with a shytstorm of A.D.D. and went on and on and on about who pays more in an instance...

Malego - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Red, you sound like a damn good Barb. At least one who knows that chit happens, and doesn't get pissy about it. Wish ya was on Sanctuary, I'd FB, TT, BH with you any day.

~Saitada

He is. I've run with him before. He does his job and does it well. He's also a good person I enjoy having him around. I'm not just saying that because my main is in the same faction.b:thanks

Belkas - Lost City · November 2009

HolyInferno - Sanctuary wrote: »

You're an idiot. Continue to faceroll your way through this game^^

QUOTE]

LOL ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. I will continue to have fun with this game and not use it to inflate my own ego. You can continue to think that success in this game somehow translates to RL...which is where you can continue to faceroll.b:laughb:laugh

XanZerstorer - Dreamweaver · November 2009

I agree some barbs are complete morons... but there's morons everywhere, and they're not just barbs.

I know barbs who are very good at their job - they spam their aggro skills, they'll cancel AOEs, they'll watch other people's damage and HP, other mobs coming, etc. And then you have the ones who think they can just attack a boss and magically keep aggro without using any skills whatsoever, in humanoid form, with everyone dishing out their damage. Or the ones who just don't want to tank.

I was in BH69 the other day and our 83 barb didn't want to tank the last 2 bosses. Well guess who did them? Yeah, me. I don't mind, I'm an offtank. However, I find it really sad when I can outtank barbs 10 levels over me, because 10 levels UNDER me, they should be outtanking me. Honestly, it's not hard - I'm a BM and can manage aggro. Now with skills and a veno tossing sparks, on most bosses, I think we can agree that it's not horrible (although I understand it's not always easy to deal with cancelling mob skills) .

Horrible on the repair, I can understand - I tank too. But since when my money and your money aren't worth the same? I assume my choice as an offtank who plays a main tank a lot... assume yours as well, folks.

On charm ticks, well too bad, it's what a charm is for: TO TICK. Get that in your thick skulls folks. I'm blowing through charms because I have to tank/offtank a lot, and really, I don't mind it. This makes it that if I'm just a DD, my cleric doesn't have to watch my health constantly in case of AOE, though I have sutra anyways to keep me alive, and pots. If I'm an offtank and have to get aggro, I can survive while the tank does whatever he needs. And if I'm a tank, I can live if the cleric lags, dies for a random reason (generally AOE; soloing Drum boss in 1-1 'cause we were running with 2 low-level clerics and both died... I still don't regret the insane charm ticks) or has more important stuff to take care off (RL happens, even mid-boss).

I might go "doh, charm tick! >_<" every now and then but that's my own fault for not using sutra right off the bat, lol. The only time you'll hear me whine about charm ticks is when I'm a main tank, there's 2-3 clerics in party, I clearly have aggro and they won't heal at all... and I'll have 3-4 charm ticks. Yeah I've had it happen; it's called being lazy, or "Why should I waste MY charm? HE's charmed! He's fine!"

Oh and...

rayne36 wrote: »

I'm not saying their isn't elitism in my class, but there is elitism in any class. (Save for maybe Archers, as I almost never hear them boasting about what they can do. I haven't played mine yet so I don't really know anything about them. Saw one tank a boss once... that was interesting, we won easily

There are in archers as well. "LOLZ I STOLE AGGRO FROM U I RAWK!!!!!" is a common attitude when I'm a main tank, and then whine at me for not being a barb (yh wel if u were a brb i wouldnt have stole aggro lol, lern2play). And there goes another example of a moron that's not a barb.

I should be done ranting now.

Miugre - Heavens Tear · November 2009

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Op was raging on all barbs - not just egotistical ones. His froth was pointed at the concept many share that each class has a role in which they play best - and many people assume they should do that. I still call screaming at people who are trying to do what they do best, insulting and egotistical.

It's not that they try to do what they do best, it's that some of them are completely incapable of thinking outside the box - i.e. they think one person has one role, it's static, it never changes, and any idea contrary to that is to be met with ridicule. That's what OP was referring to.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Here's what I said:

Any given comparable level BM/Wiz/Archer in a boss-killing squad is a much better DD that I am. *My* job is to keep the boss busy while the real Damage Dealers kill it. If you want to tank the $#@*&% boss because it gives you a thrill, Knock youself out.

I know now, and have known, plenty of BM's and archers and Wiz's who are I'm perfectly happy to let tank if they wish. Most of em are damn good at it. If they want to practice, or "Let's try this" on a boss, fine! As long as I don't get caught in a party-wipe and lose exp in the process, it sounds like fun to me!

At no point did I ever say "No, you idiot - you can't do that - you're to squishy". If that makes you happy, so be it. I would love to have the opportunity to DD once in a while, and I love watching the team work for once, instead of being stuck in the boss's crotch for 10 minutes. My problem is with OP screaming about one or 2 irritating barbs, and generalizing that instantly, all barbs are "get out of the way, I'm here!" @ssclowns.

I'm not even generalizing at BM's - cause I know a lot of great ones.

Just *this* clown.

Fair enough, I can agree with a point against generalization. I can only say that OP probably didn't really mean absolutely all barbs, despite the wording. That kind of ignorance is purely unfathomable to me.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Okay, now you're just projecting. Making up opinions for me is not needed - I'll be happy to give them to you for free, if you bother to ask.

I defy *any* cleric to tell me I have raged at them for charm ticks. I have 2 clerics on 2 different servers of my own, and I damn sure don't b*tch at them for doing a thankless job with few rewards, like saving my fuzzy behind.

Now, if I show up for a BH or FB run, and the cleric informs me, @ the boss, "I'm a full attack cleric - I only have IronHeart 1" (actually happened to me once in a TT, fer FSM's sake) - then I leave. If I wined it, then I boot them and replace them with a cleric to heal the party. If it's a cave that requires anyone but a pet to tank the boss, then I believe we need a healing cleric.

Sorry if that offends you. Good luck finding someone to back up your allegation.

Wasn't projecting, that was more of a tangent - sorry I didn't make that clear enough.

I don't believe there's such a thing as a "full attack cleric" to the complete exclusion of heals. Having decent heals and buffs is a given with a cleric, as is having decent attacks. IMO being a "hybrid" or "full attack..." or even full support cleric isn't about what skills you level, but how you operate in play. With my cleric, for instance, despite the fact that she's not even 60 yet... the way I've played her, and will continue to play her, is this: stack a few heals on the tank, hit the mobs with an attack or two, repeat. On bosses, I throw debuffs in the mix as well. I will only mash ironheart to the exclusion of everything else if I'm convinced this is essential to the survival of the party. In all other situations, I expect not to be met with criticism for throwing in a Weild Thunder now and then.

Redmenace - Heavens Tear wrote: »

You know as well as I do, that if you pick up random people at the Bounty Hunter, or at the cave entrance, you have no idea what you are gonna get. Anytime I have to do that (and believe me, i still occasionally do) the layout and roles of all are discussed before we enter the cave - just to make sure everyone is happy and the BH goes smoothly.

If you brought one of your friends in to a BH, and he acted like that, would you keep him on your friends list? I doubt it.

And if it matters at all, I played this gave from the beginning factionless, and joined a faction at lvl 64. Factionless are not strays - but don't you prefer your friends? Don't you trust them more? Isn't that why they're your friends?

RedMenace

\still happy he doesn't have to meet OP
\\can't run a pet, can't heal people, not much else I can do but hit things - sorry
\\\never said you couldn't do whatever you want to do, just please dont get me killed in the process

Factions are not necessary to have friends. I've been factionless from day one (so far, anyway), and my friends list has quite a few nice folks I could call on to do instances with - though not so much at my level all the time. So yeah, I squad up with strangers. It's kind of the spice of life, you know - playing with people you don't know already. Sure you'll run into a few morons, but it's all worth it to find people who aren't. XD

Telarith - Sanctuary · November 2009

Admittedly, my first post was drunk, but the responses are more enlightening than anything I posted.

The good barbs are the laid-back posts who say, if the BM can and will tank, let them. The barbs that file under the craptastic part I mentioned, spew vitriol back while complaining about the same being tossed at them.

I imagine the people who know anything read through, and got kicks out of the same parts I did. Somehow, singing the praise for the ability of a fister to hold aggro is somehow egotistical. How? I am not the only HA fister, nor the only fister that understands how -interval and speed buffs interact. Any proficient fister MUST know these to be most efficient at their job. Similarly, anyone who doesn't know how those interact cannot make valid comparisons between barbs and fist BMs. Why? Because they don't have a frickin clue about half of what they are talking about. Fisters are based SOLELY upon -interval and speed buffs. Without those two, swords are a better tank. So yes, in this instance, if you don't know how they interact, it is an uneducated opinion.

We have an archer who believes end-game archers with slingshots have 5 attacks per second. Somehow rank 8 -.1 interval armor bestows that I guess. Nevermind that they only would have -.05 over a true fister at that point (archers don't get the Lionheart -.05 bonus), and that at that higher interval it doesn't change as much, we are supposed to rely on clueless assumptions without any fact or knowledge of the game I suppose.

Or Redmenace's first post, that I got a kick out of when I sobered up this morning. Somehow, doing more damage will mean killing the boss takes longer? Seriously, barb's not understanding that their aggro is aggro of skill + damage cracks me up every time. If a sub-grade of weaponry fist BM steals aggro constantly, than they can tank easily as long as barb doesn't use aggro skills. Now the BM can switch to current grade weaponry, which will be much more damage. This raises the ceiling other DDs have for how much damage they can deal, meaning more damage from tank and more damage from other DDs. Their whole 'kick all other DDs' is pointless from not understanding anything. If tank has more total aggro, DDs can damage more. How in the freaking heck does that mean less damage? Again, most likely from knowing nothing of how HA fist BMs operate. Which, again, means knowing -interval and speed buff effects.

So, yes, I stand by my drunken assertion that anyone who doesn't understand the formulas shouldn't post. At best you may understand half of it, how worthwhile is listening to unintelligent postings? The barbs who don't care about BHs being tanked by HA fist BMs are most likely the ones people would want anyways. They know their strengths and weaknesses. As any class should.

But from any class not being barb, they run into the almighty barb complexes from non-fist gen barbs who believe the world revolves around them. They are going to be bad, downgrading to terrible should they not truly understand how their own aggro holds work. Mystical fairy dust may be nice, but sadly reality has more impact.

As for BH79, already know it's much easier to duo with a lvl 48 cleric than bother with a party. It takes less time, and every boss in there is easily tankable with no charm and a lvl 48 cleric healing. I suppose I could **** up alot to kill my charm, but sadly I am not terribly enough to have lost the charm I had back in Rebirth gamma. Hence, why I have it. And for any idgit bringing up using my BM as an example for arrogance: how else would I have a real example of a fist BM? It would only mean one more arguement the other side gets.

So when barbs actually understand they are not needed for every single party mode instance, maybe there will be less posts complaining about it?

EDIT: @ Holy, I was drunk, and some clueless archer was PM'ing me after a WC vent about how stupid it is to assume barb's are better tanks than fist BMs. How that is arrogant, when it is generalizing about 2 classes, I have no idea. Unless the fact I have an alt as one of them somehow makes me all of them. They are the one who pm'ed endgame slingshots have 5 attacks per second. I ended up screen shotting the whole convo for future entertainment.

Furhter EDIT: Re-read 1st post, and it does sound more like against barbs who assume they are the focal point of all party formation. Which is why making sure they are not part of the strat for the party in any way, shape, fashion, or form is there. If the barb absolutely must be tank, the other classes should know that. But for FBs, they aren't needed. So why focus it around them. Just a common sense way of looking at it I guess. And if a barb tanking means slower killing, then it is stupid to have them do it. Barb can simply be DD at that point.

Asmathi - Sanctuary · November 2009

Iseria - Harshlands wrote: »

yeah i agree with tarloor.

however, i think that telarith is talking about Human form tanking barb. awfully common this days, dont know who went and told barbs that after getting calamity axes they can do enough damage to keep aggro from wizzes and archers 5 levels lower.in BH, this kind of barb loses aggro frequently, and then blames archer and wiz for not passing their attacks.
wizzes and archers can easily hit for over 7k at level 7x, whereas a barb in human form with calamity axes (not taking into account shards and refinements) can normal hit for 2k, berserk for 3-4k, crit for 5k, and crit berserk for 11k.
its much more quicker for barb to tiger form, keep aggro with flesh realm and roar, and have 2 constant DDs of 7k, than to do odd 2-11k damage with 2 DD doing 7k every 4 or 5 seconds so that human form barb doesnt lose aggro. Barbs may have strongest AoE, but in BH you cant use that as a way to keep aggro. so barbs can't be DDtanks. barbs are tanks, tanking is done in tiger form. end of story.

b:shocked I want to see those archer eqiups lol. We hit around 5k, 11-15k on a crit (Pure Dex archers)

But I agree, I wont fight with a human form barb tanking. If they dont go Tiger, I leave.

Beatrixxx - Lost City · November 2009

Taarloor - Harshlands wrote: »

mebbe if the BM has alpha male genie skill, otherwise, no, they wont hold aggro unless squad waits till BM has solo DD'd like 15-20%...

id just like to add what everyone seem to forget, allthough telarith could have been more clear if u read the post trough its obvious shes talkin about FIST bms

of cource if the barb uses an agrro skill he can take agrro from the fist bm(the fistie will get it back in seconds but...) but in many cases the fist bm(if he plays corrcetly and doesnt spam skills *facepalm*) will infact hold the aggro away from archers and wizzes with equal level and equal gear even if they spark (for everytime a archer or wiz can spark the fistsie can fire off 2-4 sparks depending on -interval gear)

and from personal experiance in my bh runs if a barb is lv 95(im 90 as im writing this) i know im gonna steal agrro so i usually ask if i can tank if he sais no i just sit back and enjoy the show untill boss at 70%hp

Telarith - Sanctuary · November 2009

Asmathi - Sanctuary wrote: »

b:shocked I want to see those archer eqiups lol. We hit around 5k, 11-15k on a crit (Pure Dex archers)

But I agree, I wont fight with a human form barb tanking. If they dont go Tiger, I leave.

You want to see the archer with that much damage? I want to see the human form barb who can flesh ream. Apparently, they have learned how to **** the system, since changing tiger and back every 3 seconds would **** their DPS big time.

Beatrixxx - Lost City wrote: »

id just like to add what everyone seem to forget, allthough telarith could have been more clear if u read the post trough its obvious shes talkin about FIST bms

of cource if the barb uses an agrro skill he can take agrro from the fist bm(the fistie will get it back in seconds but...) but in many cases the fist bm(if he plays corrcetly and doesnt spam skills *facepalm*) will infact hold the aggro away from archers and wizzes with equal level and equal gear even if they spark (for everytime a archer or wiz can spark the fistsie can fire off 2-4 sparks depending on -interval gear)

and from personal experiance in my bh runs if a barb is lv 95(im 90 as im writing this) i know im gonna steal agrro so i usually ask if i can tank if he sais no i just sit back and enjoy the show untill boss at 70%hp

This is where the good barbs seperated themselves from the bad ones in this thread.

The good ones know their aggro is only partially influenced by skill and gear; the aggro from skill is static.

A fister is more or less purely influenced by gear; if they already have it, it is already there.

Which is why I mentioned barbs who put the laid-back answers are more likely to actually understand their class and the way it works. If a barb doesn't understand that, then they do play like ****. And that does mean at least a passing knowledge of other DDs damage methods. Any DD who doesn't check the gear of the main tank is at best passable skill. This is something they must know for how much to hold back, just as they must recognize the skills the tank is using. If a barb doesn't know how those formulas work, or the gear of their DDs, then no, they are not good at their class.

Knownase - Heavens Tear · November 2009

I think Barbs here are jealous if a Veno or BM tanks in TT, because Tank is usually second pick. Most Barbs love having that (So do I but I really can care less). If I really needed a mat, I would sub it. For example, TT 3-1, a veno can solo all except the 4 min boss. They tank, they get second pick. Usually I just sub TT3-1 myself as stated before.b:victory

Overall: Barbs get too mad over nothing lol(or losing 2nd pick in TT)

b:surrender

ChaoticTears - Harshlands · November 2009

It all depends on the boss TBH, some you are better with a Barb tanking, others a BM, Veno, Cleric, Wiz etc are better off tanking.
Since Tanking isnt all about DPS and agro management (granted thats a big part) its also about survivability of the tank.

The problem is a lot of players dont want to think outside the cookie cutter squad norm, and panic if there is no barb or Cleric in the party (Yes tanked 79 just with sutra and Wiz heals when couldnt get a Cleric.)

Tbh though with BH's players are starting to realise that " OMG Bm's can tank" and a good Bm does a damn good job of it, but sadly there is still those players who have a hissy fit when a Cleric offers to tank 59 .

Seriously people need to think outside the box, Imo it gives you a better understanding of both what your own class can do and what other classes can, and in the end makes you a better player for it.

Moron Barbs

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