Take a Step Back

This theory of how the PW economy works (by Saitada the OP) is simple and has some truth to it. The gold price is supported by us purchasing their gold with our coins.

The problem is that the YOU that is being referred to here doesn't include ME.

I bought gold with coin when it was 200k, I might buy at up to 250k, but after that the time involved in earning coin for gold becomes much more like work and a lot less like play. Now I just come in and **** around for awhile before I log off. I have no ambition or drive to play. I just like to hang out here still sometimes.

The reason for the advantage in Cash Shopping is to make up for the fact that Zen big-spenders usually have jobs that keep them away from PW most of the time (that's how they have lots of disposable income) and they need a way to be on an even footing with people that sit on their butts all day and play video games. Maximum profit comes from playing this dynamic against itself for all it's worth.

The game starts out with F2P going strong with the hope that as things progress on the server the CS heavy minority will be spread evenly among the CS light majority.

As we've seen though, time after time, greed conquers all.

I wonder how many (if any) people selling (setting the price of) gold in big batches in the AH are directly tied to PW? Or are they all really "just players".

I wonder about the ratio of gold moved through the auction house to non-landholders vs. landholders in the last month or so?

My guess is most of EWE buying gold at 500k+ (on all servers) are ones that are raking in coin from land ownership.

I also guess that if EWE happen to be a non-Zen or low-Zen buying landholder then EWE are the ones making the most noise about gold prices.
Because EWE are the ones with the most to "lose".

How much longer will the servers be worth playing on?

Who cares? I'm basically just sitting around here watching/waiting to see how things go (funny, it's what I've been doing with all EWE people out here in the real world for a long time now also. I can't escape EWE people anywhere so I just observe EWE now).

If you didn't cash shop you wouldn't give us the chance to keep the gold prices high. You are contributing to it as much as people who buy gold from auction house.

AlbireoTwo - Lost City wrote: »

Try selling 8,000 gold at 400k each. Once thats gone, try selling another 8,000 at 300k each. By the time they all dissapear,other people will start so sell their gold cheaper.

That's just it. There used to be hundreds of gold at 300k, 350k, 400k etc. Why are they gone? Because people who wanted gold bought it! The sellers didn't raise the price of gold to 500k. The buyers did by buying out all the lower priced gold until all that was left was the 500k gold. The sellers saw that and figured, "why should I sell my gold at 300k when people are buying it at 500k?" And here we are today.

Put another way, the prices is where the demand = supply. At 300k, the demand far exceeded the supply. Same at 400k. At 500k, the demand equaled the supply so the price settled there. It's PWI's fault for creating the demand by introducing (a chance at) uber items, but the players' fault for coveting those uber items enough to buy lots of gold.

FoxRunning - Heavens Tear wrote: »

buying gold from the company isnt the problem....its how it is used after it is purchased that is the problem. i buy things i personally use, not for resale. resale is the problem we are seeing. players trying to wring out all they can from other players.

When a reseller disappears, prices go up. For some reason, a large portion of the playerbase doesn't want to use the auctioneer to buy gold to buy items from the cash shop. They prefer getting it from cat shops who resell it. I don't know why this is, but it is.

When I want to make money, I buy a bunch of items from cash shop, and sell them on a cat shop at a lower price than I see other cat shops selling them. The more people there are reselling like I am, the lower the price of those goods go.

On a meta-economics level, what's happening is that the reseller helps distribute resources more efficiently. People want dragon orbs, but they don't want to bother buying the gold from the auctioneer to get those orbs. So there is pent-up demand for orbs. That is a market inefficiency. A reseller buys the gold, buys the orbs, and sells them, providing a supply for that pent-up demand and thus satisfying it. He eliminates the market inefficiency. Everyone profits in this process. The gold seller profits because he sold some gold he would not have. The reseller profits by selling for more than he paid. The buyer profits by getting an item for lower prices than he could have originally.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Simple Economics people.

I buy shell necklaces for $0.10 ea. ( Yes I said ten cents each ) I turn around and SELL them for $10.00 ea to tourists here in Hawaii.

Why?

Because they will pay that price for them!

More accurately, you buy them for $0.10 each because you bought them in bulk from a wholesaler (just like buying a 10-pack of dragon orbs costs you 0.27 gold each instead of the 0.3 gold each regular price). You then pay to transport the items to Hawaii, and sell them for $10.

The lone tourist could do the same thing. They could place a bulk order for a thousand shell necklaces for $0.10 each ($100) and pay to ship them from China ($100). He would have paid $200 to get the one necklace he wanted, and have 999 necklaces he doesn't want. He could set up shop in Hawaii and spend his vacation trying to sell the remaining 999 necklaces.

Or he could just buy the one necklace for $10 and not have to deal with all that. That's what the reseller does. They deal with all the stuff the single item buyer doesn't want to deal with (just like some people don't want to bother with buying gold from the auctioneer), in order to bring a product to market at a lower price than it otherwise would be.

AlbireoTwo - Lost City wrote: »

Biggest flaw in your plan-you're trying to get the whole game to stop buying gold. That's almost impossible. Also,you're forgetting the sellers don't HAVE to sell the gold. Now,lets say we wait for 2 weeks, and the prices don't go down. The sellers don't care-they'll just buy some anniversary packs,get awesome gear which we DO need, and sell that.

You're assuming the worst case for the gold buyer and the best case for the gold seller and using that as a basis for comparison. That's flawed. You have to either look at the worst case for both, or the best case for both, or (most accurately) the average case for both.

On average, the market has correctly priced the packs at the value of the chances to obtain a good item. If the gold seller is lucky, they'll get awesome gear and make a profit like you say. If they're unluckly, they'll get a bunch of tokens and curse themselves that they didn't just sell the gold directly and make 2.5x-3x as much money as they'll get from selling the tokens. On average, either will result in them making the same amount of money. Just one (direct gold sale) is guaranteed while the other (buying anniv packs) carries a lot of risk.

Now, let's say they can't afford to buy the anniversary packs. What happens? They wait until the rising tide expansion and buy some awesome mounts, which we can't get in game. At the same time they're owning in PVP. Everyone will want a cash shopper in their team, because of their charms. And what happens to the non gold buyers? We're stuck as the low levels that keep getting pked. Nobody will want us in teams. There'll be CSer only factions. And the price of gold doesn't drop because they don't need the coins-they can buy anything they like from the boutique and resell it. In the end, its us who lose out.

The distinction you're making between cash shoppers and non cash shoppers is completely artificial. I have spent a grand total of $10 on this game. That was to buy a super inventory stone last year when they lied in their announcements and said it was only available for a couple weeks. Otherwise I wouldn't even have spent that.

During the 2nd Jolly Jones event, I purchased about 675 gold from the auctioneer. That wasn't all at once, mind you. I took my coin, bought about 10 gold, converted to GAs, converted those to prizes, and sold those prizes. Then took the money and bought more gold. Wash and repeat. I monitored the market prices pretty closely and most of the time I made sure I had the lowest price because I believe in making a profit off volume rather than margin. A lot of people who didn't participate in Jolly Jones got a lot of items super-cheap because of me.

During the anniversary pack sales, I've purchased over 400 gold from the auctioneer. Same thing, took my coin, bought gold from the auctioneer, got prizes sold them. Well almost the same. Since we didn't know the probability of getting a good item, I gambled that it would be like Jolly Jones, and lost. Except for a couple prizes from the first 5 packs, I got nothing but luck tokens, and lost nearly all my money. I then abandoned the packs as too risky (which is why I didn't cycle through as much gold as during Jolly Jones), and concentrated on selling items from tokens. I made enough money from that to get back on my feet, buying packs only when my shop wasn't buying enough tokens to sustain itself.

But anyway, my point is, I'm a non-cash shopper, but I've been able to spend over 1000 gold during those two events. Just because you're a non-cash shopper doesn't mean you can't participate in cash shop events. You just have to identify when buying gold is worth it.

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

I deserve every bit of an edge as I am willing to put into the game. If I am willing to buy zhen, then I should get something out of it... while I disagree with the Anni packs personally.. I should be able to buy any mount I want, or any materials I want or any number of dragon orbs I want or any clothing I want etc...

The advantage goes to those willing to pay. Not those who don't. But you missed the thrust of my argument. The thrust of the argument was the prices for gold. People are screaming about it.. but still buying. Stop buying and refuse to pay stupid prices and the price WILL come down.

~Saitada

So what you are saying is, that there should never be an even playing field even in a game? That all your life you should be able to buy everything you want instead of work for it?

The thrust of your argument is mute.

(QUOTE)I deserve every bit of an edge as I am willing to put into the game. If I am willing to buy zhen, then I should get something out of it... (Quote)

So with this said, because you can afford to spend 3 or 400.00 a month on a game while the rest of us see better suited to spend that on something else..You deserve to be able to have more, be better, and have the best stuff. You talk about players and how they are the ones setting the prices, what you fail to see is that...

Those of us who choose to not spend 100.00's of dollars on this game a month can never hope to have 5 or 600 million in game. Not by lvl 90 anyways. Maybe if we stick with it and grind it out for a year or so then we might. But you can open up your real life wallet, toss down a couple thousand dollars in a few months and have all the coins to buy anything you want in this game.

Everything is becoming unbalanced in this game. You have low levels with end game gears while some of the rest of us are end game and have less than great gears.

I've stood by pwi in everything they've done, but reintroducing the anniversary packs a third time.. well that showed me that they refuse to listen to their player base. I am not quitting, but they will not get another dime from me.

You can't write off high gold prices as player greed.

Players play the AH but PWI sets the rules.

PWI introduces anniversary packs that contain endgame equipment and costs gold. That increases gold demand.

PWI lets you buy best luck tokens with gold and turn those into 10million coin. That increases coin supply. If I buy gold with coin and use gold to make 10million more coin everyone has more coin. This makes coin more and more worthless. There is so damn much coin in the server I can sell a TT99 green mat for 4 million coins.

That coin in your bank you've been saving is just not worth much at all now because of best luck tokens and chests of coins. PWI introduced those and coin is just too easy to make for a lot of people. Gold sellers can't be expected to sell gold for coin that PWI has rendered nearly worthless.

Black_lce - Heavens Tear wrote: »

ill explain it again.

they raise prices to where less ppl buy gold w/ coin. thus more ppl buy gold w/ real $ cause they can't afford it in coin. thus meaning more income for the gms.

and u wonder y they just close the threads on aniv packs w/out reading them. and they dont put a limit on gold prices cause they profit from them.

It doesn't MATTER if you buy gold with coin or not! Gold sellers buy it all. You buy from the gold sellers. The gold sellers run out of gold-- and buy MORE. PWE profits either WAY.

I mean, hell, forcing players to charge zen is counterproductive-- 'cause I know that I wouldn't charge zen, but I would buy gold at AH if it was lower. I just deal without the charms and other things. And I know I'm not the only one.

Sheesh, where's the common sense?

Again-- the GMs/devs/mods/whoever you want to blame do NOT drive gold prices up on purpose. Yes, they want to profit. Yes, they are milking us of our money. BUT driving gold prices up does NOTHING to help them. $100 is still $100, doesn't matter if the gold seller buys it or 10 different people charge $10.

'nother Edit. XD The only thing PWE is doing wrong is forgetting that we can't manage the economy by ourselves. They spammed the sales-- and that's what helped to ruin it. They didn't have any 'secret agenda'. They don't want to just torture us or something. A happy player base brings in more people, makes gold sellers buy more gold, and generally makes the game better. What do they have to gain from an unhappy one?

Give me a reason why PWE wants gold higher, then? I don't see one. Then again, I might be wrong. Who knows? Maybe the devs have just snapped and are now making this into one big social experiment to see how much we can take.
b:chuckle

I don't think so. There's no reason for them to do what they're doing. Therefor, they must just be making a LOT of mistakes when it comes to us. There's no profit in driving gold prices up for them. At all.

Step 1: PWI introduces new shiny stuff that people want.

Step 2: The people who can afford those items get them at whatever price they're going for, because they want it. And besides, money means far less to those that have millions

Step 3: Due to all that lovely demand increase, prices go up, but only the same people buying before can afford the higher prices.

This all-encompassing "you" that's being thrown around hardly covers all players, and sadly enough some people don't have a voice in this matter. You can want all the new stuff as badly as the next person, but if you don't have the cash/coins you won't get it. Similarly, the entire server besides a few TW faction officers can stop buying gold, but gold prices will still be high. Why? There are enough people in the game that have enough coins that money doesn't matter much to them, and they are the ones that continue to fuel the rising prices.

It's not everyone we're talking about here. Yes, greed is making the prices rise right now. But no, not everyone is responsible. As for how it can be stopped? I don't think it can without PWI intervention [i.e. fewer sales].

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

You can't write off high gold prices as player greed.

Players play the AH but PWI sets the rules.

PWI introduces anniversary packs that contain endgame equipment and costs gold. That increases gold demand.

PWI lets you buy best luck tokens with gold and turn those into 10million coin. That increases coin supply. If I buy gold with coin and use gold to make 10million more coin everyone has more coin. This makes coin more and more worthless. There is so damn much coin in the server I can sell a TT99 green mat for 4 million coins.

That coin in your bank you've been saving is just not worth much at all now because of best luck tokens and chests of coins. PWI introduced those and coin is just too easy to make for a lot of people. Gold sellers can't be expected to sell gold for coin that PWI has rendered nearly worthless.

What is the reason everyone wants the gear in the packs so badly? Greed. They do not want to work for the gear, they want it all NOW.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

As a zhen purchaser, I refuse to buy and sell gold just so that non payers can get their gold and items at a rate THEY want. If i wanted strangers to be happy id much rather donate to the poor than on pple playing online games. If your not pitching in your wallet, tbh you dont deserve complaining much about the prices. Why? Cause your wanting to control pples earned/worked RL money to = the virtual money you grinded for at a price you see fit for you to play happy. If pple REALLY want it at a set price, one thing you can do as Saitada said is control your patience. There is only a limited amount of UBER rich pple that DONT buy zhen who can afford to buy gold at jacked up prices. Wait for them to finish. Seriously that even lasted more than 2 weeks each and no one, including the not so rich, were able to hold themselves.

You earned a heart and flower b:heartb:flower

b:kissb:bye


edit: poo... I'm on the bottom Q_Q

Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »

What is the reason everyone wants the gear in the packs so badly? Greed. They do not want to work for the gear, they want it all NOW.

There is no way to work for primeval stones or the capes or most of the gear from the sale. Those who ignore the sale will be more poor and under-geared with respect to their peers. Coins have lost their buying power and they won't be able to afford charms and TT mats.

Okay, fine, I don't buy gold via the auction house. Does it have any effect on the price of gold? Absolutely not. Why? Because one voice is snuffed out by the several hundreds of people willing to buy gold at prices I am not willing to pay/can't afford to pay.

It's kinda of like voting. An individual vote, although supposedly having power, has absolutely no power unless the number of votes in the same direction reaches a critical mass (and that critical mass can be anywhere from a simple majority to 75+%). What that critical mass is on PWI to induce a change, I have no clue.

I just want to put in my own 2 cents.

It is absolutely true that it is our own demand that is driving up the gold prices. And it is undeniable that because we are willing to pay such ridiculous prices for gold, that it is remaining at that price.

And it is also true that if we were to all stop purchasing gold, the prices will undoubtedly plummet.

However, why are the packs in such high demand?

Because they contain items are either extremely and incomprehensibly rare or unobtainable altogether. And PWI knows that the players know this. And PWI also knows that if they do introduce these packs, demand for gold will skyrocket. This means, people who can afford to charge zen will do so, and even more. People who cannot afford to charge zen will try to buy it in game, thus creating more demand and profits for people who charge zen, who will then charge even more zen to make even more profit. All is in favour of PWI.

Now of course, like Saitada said, PWI is a business, and what they do is of course in their best benefit. They introduce these packs, and our demand drives up the prices because we buy them.

But now to think about it, do we really have a choice?

I wholeheartedly agree that cash shoppers should have an edge to the game. they pay for us, so they should have an advantage. But how much of an advantage? It seems to me that the items given through these packs are not "slight" in any sense.

To the normal non-cash shopper, there are two alternatives. Don't buy gold hope the prices drop, or watch as you and your character become increasingly obsolete amongst the population who can afford to obtain these items.

The income disparity is perpetually widening, and the lower end of the spectrum is slowly fading. What happens is the "slight disadvantage" you're supposed to have becomes an absolute advantage, and at that point, it no longer becomes a free to play game. Your player base is destroyed and your game is in ruins.

I'm no expert, but that's my take on these sales. We're greedy, we're insatiable, and most of all, we have practically no choice. PWI takes advantage of all 3, and it's not fair to place the blame on just one group.

the whole point of a free to play game is so that both sides can take part, albeit one at a sleight disadvantage. some of us can't afford to charge zen, and in the economic short run, that wont change.

so what alternatives are there for us who can't afford to charge zen? do we sit back? but as i outlined above, there is no such alternative. You can just play without charging zen, but your gameplay is already destroyed by the infinite supply of godly equipment pouring into the game. when the crowd races ahead, you have to keep pace, for fear of being left behind in the dust. and this is what the anniversary packs are doing. the cash shoppers and rich people are widening the gap, to an unfathomable distance, while the players who are playing for free are being rendered obsolete.

this isn't the slight advantage you're supposed to get. whatever meaning hardwork and dedication ever held is now lost. that has no place anymore because half the items dropped cant be even gotten via normal methods. soon, cash shoppers wont have any advantage at all, because cash shoppers are the only ones who can keep up.