Veno's bramble hood got nerfed?! wtf?

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  • DarkReCon - Heavens Tear
    DarkReCon - Heavens Tear Posts: 73 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    mbrunestud wrote: »
    are you freaking blind? ppl say venos lvl faster b/c venos have the least trouble taking on mobs of all kinds. just look at how archers have to fight melee mobs, how bms, barbs fare against magic mobs.
    a kill quota quest, esp against melee mobs, probably takes at least twice as long as an archer than it takes for a veno; shorter for ranged/magic mobs cuz those r a little easier to deal with. sometimes archers pretty much have to wait for their winged shell to recharge unless they want to take a lot of dmg and/or drink a lot of pots - that means 30s cooldown per mob. when lvling my turtle underwater, i continuously take on 2 mobs simultaneously. ffs play an archer, or a barb b4 u talk about how other classes lvl slower b/c they don't grind to lvl their pets

    venos lvling faster is definitely a true statement


    Hey bonehead, I have a lvl61 Mage, lvl61 Cleric, lvl 44 FA Veno and lvl42 Battle Veno that I currently play.. Other alts I have started are lvl16 ARCHER, lvl32 BLADEMASTER and lvl17 BARBARIAN that I dont play to much cause I enjoy the others better esp the FULL HEAVY ARMOR BATTLE VENO that lvls just as fast as the FA Veno.. One of my buds is a Archer and another is a BM and they both lvl'd as fast as my FA Veno.. Ok the FAV can fight 2 mobs at a time but the BM and Archers kill faster so it all evens out.. The ONLY dif is the fact of the pets that I stated prior and if you cant see the mathematics in it then no wonder you spend all your time on here, you even have to know math to get a job at McDonald's..

    ADDON:.. I just figured out the time frames of my characters and the Heavy Armor Melee Veno actually reached lvl 40 2 days faster then the Full Arcane Magic Veno and 3 days faster then my Cleric so how do you explain that. Come on lets hear it.. All the people complaining about venos are just jealous that they can not SOLO a TT and probably the same people that complain cause their neighbor got a new car.. Give it a break Barbs have advantage on pys mobs, mages have advantage on magic mobs, archers have advantage on distance mobs.. The real gripe that everyone has is not the fact that veno's are PERFECT its the fact that the Phoenix is to strong cause of a BUG, FIX THE BUG AND LEAVE THE VENOS ALONE..
    Why wont my sig work.. Not kool..
  • tatakairyu
    tatakairyu Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You'll have to ask the devs that. Either they really like venos, or you're wrong and it's not a large distinct advantage. From what I've seen, the game is pretty well balanced in terms of money gained per time spent.
    Get to a higher level and say that.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Which is why they should be doing the squad mode where the drop rates are higher.
    Which defeats the purpose of single mode for all classes but venos. Sure a few other classes can do single mode but even then, they spend tons of money on charms just to stay alive.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What's the problem here? Do you want a game where every squad needs to have at least a barb, cleric, and DDer to be functional? You think finding groups is hard now... Other classes have to be able to step in a make up for a deficiency if you're missing a class, if in a less capable fashion. In particular I think it was a mistake making it so there's no substitute for a cleric.
    Agreed.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You can't look at it only in terms of a single encounter. You have to look at the total range of encounters in the game. A tank (barb or BM) using powders and potions can tank some of the content. A veno (or veno group) can tank more of it. A cleric+tank combo can tank all of it.
    When a class can have a pet that tanks pretty much as good as a barb, I see something is wrong with that.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Um, because they were designed to solo? What good is a solo class if it's required to find a group?
    Agreed.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    If you were able and willing to play 10 hours a day doing nothing but this, you could reach 22 million in 9 days. And that's for a level 30 toon. 2 million a day doesn't seem that outlandish if he had a lot of time to play. (BTW, the cleric kills faster 2-shotting stuff vs. the veno's 3-shotting, but has potion costs as an added expense. I haven't done a comparison analysis of the two yet.)
    Like I said earlier, get to a higher level and see the huge difference.You're not adding in the repair costs for melee classes either.

    Also, you have a pet that attacks so you killing something in 3 shots and a cleric killing something in 2 is not a good comparison seeing as that you have your pet attacking aswell.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The problem I've seen for pickup groups or large groups (especially raids in other MMORPGs) is a huge waste of time due to lack of coordination. Someone goes to the bathroom and everyone waits. You need to check everyone is ready before attacking the boss, so everyone waits. Someone's dog threw up so everyone waits. Someone got lost trying to follow the group so everyone waits. Your cleric has to go to bed and you need to find a replacement, so everyone waits. But that's a problem that has nothing to do with venos.
    Exactly, no trouble for a veno with groups and getting the groups together worrying about people leaving/replacing people. So that's more work for a squad to do.

    I'm not complaining about venos soloing and making money but they need to make it so that other classes can actually solo single mode without spending more money than the drops you get.
  • Fleuri - Sanctuary
    Fleuri - Sanctuary Posts: 1,763 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    swgs wrote: »
    There is no way a veno can out damage you, but they will kill more mobs then you is the same amount of time. because they do not need to kit and rest. My archer kills much faster than my veno and she does not need to kite a lot, but she needs to use HP/MP charms to kill non stop. it is the only reason she can level up faster then my veno

    I have hardly ever rested (until recently). And I only occasionally need to kite (I kite Sori Dualhammer/Bloodlust Feligar/Mythical Wolfkin, increased life monsters, adds, and I remember needing to kite mutinous prisoners).

    (Recently, I have started meditating for 5-10 seconds between some battles to avoid ticking my mana charm. I hate mana charms. Hate, hate, hate.)

    But, until recently I did not spend much of my time fighting so I am having a problem understanding how my 2 monsters-near-my-level per minute kill speed could have been very significant.
  • mbrunestud
    mbrunestud Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    DarkReCon - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Hey bonehead, I have a lvl61 Mage, lvl61 Cleric, lvl 44 FA Veno and lvl42 Battle Veno that I currently play.. Other alts I have started are lvl16 ARCHER, lvl32 BLADEMASTER and lvl17 BARBARIAN that I dont play to much cause I enjoy the others better esp the FULL HEAVY ARMOR BATTLE VENO that lvls just as fast as the FA Veno.. One of my buds is a Archer and another is a BM and they both lvl'd as fast as my FA Veno.. Ok the FAV can fight 2 mobs at a time but the BM and Archers kill faster so it all evens out.. The ONLY dif is the fact of the pets that I stated prior and if you cant see the mathematics in it then no wonder you spend all your time on here, you even have to know math to get a job at McDonald's..

    ADDON:.. I just figured out the time frames of my characters and the Heavy Armor Melee Veno actually reached lvl 40 2 days faster then the Full Arcane Magic Veno and 3 days faster then my Cleric so how do you explain that. Come on lets hear it.. All the people complaining about venos are just jealous that they can not SOLO a TT and probably the same people that complain cause their neighbor got a new car.. Give it a break Barbs have advantage on pys mobs, mages have advantage on magic mobs, archers have advantage on distance mobs.. The real gripe that everyone has is not the fact that veno's are PERFECT its the fact that the Phoenix is to strong cause of a BUG, FIX THE BUG AND LEAVE THE VENOS ALONE..

    im just saying its wrong wut u said about venos not lvling faster than other chars midgame. wut math did u actually present? u presented the amount of exp needed for pets to lvl up, wich does not prove anything about the rate at wich venos, or any other class for that matter, get that exp. ur math supports nothing. how do i explain that ur HA veno leveled faster than ur cleric? wut do HA venos not get pets or something??

    again, my assertion is that venos lvl faster in general b/c no specific type of mob give them much trouble as opposed to other classes. prove me wrong.

    the rest of ur post doesn't even make sense. i never said venos' soloing capabilities were overpowered anywhere in this forum, nor did i say that aspect of the veno needed a nerf
  • Tehfishy - Heavens Tear
    Tehfishy - Heavens Tear Posts: 42 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    raven wrote: »
    hercules tank 2 times better than barbarian(pet damage in HH is bugged and deal 100% damage while barb damage is 30%) and cost nothing this is why barbarian quit.

    I didn't feel like reading past this point... Are you seriously stupid?
    Venos are the weakest *gasp* WEAKEST DAMAGE DEALING CLASS. OMG! amazing isn't it? We make up by our pets damage, thus keeping us a moderate DD. Plus if our pet was reduced our solo ability which we are DESIGNED FOR would fail.
  • tatakairyu
    tatakairyu Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    I think you should read what he said again, TT damage is reduced except on pets. Meaning the herc can keep aggro.
  • fuzzles
    fuzzles Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    tatakairyu wrote: »
    I think you should read what he said again, TT damage is reduced except on pets. Meaning the herc can keep aggro.

    A herc can aggro the hell out of any TT without trying. Hell... you could be actively trying to prevent your herc from stealing aggro against a TT boss and it will still most likely take aggro.

    Any veno can take aggro in TT very easily, even without herc.

    Having said that though.. Herc aggro-holding really isn't limited to TT. Even without the slightly-bugged full pet damage thing, a herc with bash could hold aggro quite easily in FBs or on normal bosses. A herc with roar could hold aggro ridiculously well.

    Until you've seen it in action, you really don't realise just how much damage reflect does. It does huge amounts.
    Everyone here is ridiculously oversensitive.
  • Faustinna - Heavens Tear
    Faustinna - Heavens Tear Posts: 176 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    I honestly don't think a veno's herc should hold aggro as well as a barb...or even better from what some people are saying. A pet doing a better job tanking then a player playing a class designed to tank would just be mind boggling honestly...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    fuzzles wrote: »
    A herc can aggro the hell out of any TT without trying. Hell... you could be actively trying to prevent your herc from stealing aggro against a TT boss and it will still most likely take aggro.

    Any veno can take aggro in TT very easily, even without herc.

    Having said that though.. Herc aggro-holding really isn't limited to TT. Even without the slightly-bugged full pet damage thing, a herc with bash could hold aggro quite easily in FBs or on normal bosses. A herc with roar could hold aggro ridiculously well.

    Until you've seen it in action, you really don't realise just how much damage reflect does. It does huge amounts.
    I have never had my Herc steal agro from a Barbarian that is tanking a TT or an FB. EVER. The only time a Barb ever had to take agro from my pet was when I asked him if he'd let me try to tank a particular boss to see if my Herc could do it, even then, he had no trouble at all taking agro from my pet when I told him to grab it.

    Herc comes with Pounce (it's stun), two self buffs and Reflect. Reflect only works if the pet is HIT with a physical attack, and not even all physical attacks... usually 1 out of every 2-3 hits gets reflected. If the Barb grabs the mob first, the pet should never be hit. Anyone who puts Bash or Roar on a herc has to whipe one of it's starting spells, and is a raging idiot.

    Reflect doesn't actually do "huge amounts" of damage. It is reflecting a PERCENTAGE of the physical damage the boss or mob has done to the pet. And in the Hercs case, no more than 70% of the physical hit the pet gets hit with (and again, only one out of every 2-3 hits actually is reflected).

    Any Barb that can't keep agro from a Herc or steal it from a Herc needs to hang up his Axes.

    ~S
  • Cargham - Sanctuary
    Cargham - Sanctuary Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    b:sin your talking about a herc stealing aggro well i happen to be that particular barb that can hold aggro without True form who ever says hercs can take aggro from a barb are morons who should stop playing the game asap and see the nearest clinic for a loss of brain cells the herc has no aggro holding skills it can stun and use bramble big -$%@#in whoop grow up guys if you cant take aggro from a herc you should'nt even be playing a barb
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Cargham - Sanctuary wrote: »
    b:sin your talking about a herc stealing aggro well i happen to be that particular barb that can hold aggro without True form who ever says hercs can take aggro from a barb are morons who should stop playing the game asap and see the nearest clinic for a loss of brain cells the herc has no aggro holding skills it can stun and use bramble big -$%@#in whoop grow up guys if you cant take aggro from a herc you should'nt even be playing a barb

    I replaced that stun with bash and steal agro from barbs all the time.b:chuckle

    Only in TT though. The rest of the time they keep it easy.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • chipsing1234
    chipsing1234 Posts: 205 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Which is why they should be doing the squad mode where the drop rates are higher.
    Are you talking about my aforementioned group of two people? Good luck pushing that argument through.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    What's the problem here? Do you want a game where every squad needs to have at least a barb, cleric, and DDer to be functional? You think finding groups is hard now... Other classes have to be able to step in a make up for a deficiency if you're missing a class, if in a less capable fashion. In particular I think it was a mistake making it so there's no substitute for a cleric.
    You said it yourself "...there's no substitute for a cleric." But apparently there is...if you're not healing a person, that is. When you say "other classes have to be able to step in a make up..." just what example are you thinking of?
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    You can't look at it only in terms of a single encounter. You have to look at the total range of encounters in the game. A tank (barb or BM) using powders and potions can tank some of the content. A veno (or veno group) can tank more of it. A cleric+tank combo can tank all of it.
    Erm, you're comparing a single character to two characters again.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Um, because they were designed to solo? What good is a solo class if it's required to find a group?
    Then with that reasoning, they should be able to solo everything in the game, with nothing left they cannot solo. Have you ever considered how much power the simple word "solo" can hold? If one can do something that two other people (at minimum) must work together to do, does that not show the one holds more power than each of the other two? Such as a man who can lift a heavy rock can do it "solo" while two other boys must work together to lift it. Get my point?

    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    How many hours a day did he play? Farming with my L30 veno alt or cleric, I can gather about 100k worth of DQs and misc items per hour, selling all the stuff to an NPC. If I sell it at a cat shop, it climbs to around 250k per hour.

    If you were able and willing to play 10 hours a day doing nothing but this, you could reach 22 million in 9 days. And that's for a level 30 toon. 2 million a day doesn't seem that outlandish if he had a lot of time to play. (BTW, the cleric kills faster 2-shotting stuff vs. the veno's 3-shotting, but has potion costs as an added expense. I haven't done a comparison analysis of the two yet.)
    I didn't keep track of how many hours a day he played, but I'd say he stayed on for roughly the same amount many regular players stay on for: several hours. So you can get 250k per hour farming mats at lvl 30. That's pretty darned nice, I'll say. A bit too nice-sounding in my own experience. Especially when a 7x phoenix veno in my faction indirectly shows off how she made 150k in an hour grinding.
    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I don't do these so I can't say. But I see at least one veno has posted that her drop rate has been about 0.3 per run.

    I would also suspect that the group can go through these runs a lot faster than a veno solo. The real figure you want to compare is drops per person per hour. If the veno is getting (making up some numbers) 1 drop per run in solo mode but takes an hour, and a group of 3 is getting 2 drops per run in squad mode but takes 30 minutes, the group is actually doing better. They just need to do it for as long as the veno is (which with these made-up numbers would be twice).
    You seem to have missed the other veno who got the two rarest drops and two more drops from a single boss in one run.
    Yes, I've been comparing that. I asked a veno yesterday how long it took for her to solo TT 1-1, and she said 20 minutes, and that was multitasking. Squad mode can't get any shorter than that. And it seems as you haven't done TT before, because squad mode requires at least 4 people, and the drops are rarely multiplied by that amount. In fact, I did a TT 1-2 run two days ago, and guess how many mats dropped on the last boss? One. Sometimes 0 drops from the second-to-last-boss. Solo mode may have fewer drops, but squad mode drops aren't hot either, and have to usually be divided by six.

    Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    The problem I've seen for pickup groups or large groups (especially raids in other MMORPGs) is a huge waste of time due to lack of coordination. Someone goes to the bathroom and everyone waits. You need to check everyone is ready before attacking the boss, so everyone waits. Someone's dog threw up so everyone waits. Someone got lost trying to follow the group so everyone waits. Your cleric has to go to bed and you need to find a replacement, so everyone waits. But that's a problem that has nothing to do with venos.

    Yes, that is part of the time requirement many squads face, unless the squad is just fully in-sync and everyone works together perfectly. Which doesn't happen. That's another one of the luxuries the game's only soloers have under their belt.
  • Isala - Sanctuary
    Isala - Sanctuary Posts: 1,607 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    You know, I'm just going to say this, and feel free to flame away, but Veno's aren't the only class that can solo. They're just the best at it. I know several players of other classes who solo EVERYTHING except bosses. And some of them can solo bosses as well. I've got bosses that scare me at 62, that a Barb friend of mine can solo at 50 with a charm. It doesn't matter if I have a charm for him or not, he 2 shots my golem, and 1 shots me. Just because it has been touted, even by PWI itself, that the Veno is "The definitive solo class", and yes, they say that even in their videos, doesn't mean that Venos are GOD. You know how many venos it takes to tank a boss like Luminoc, or Kimsa at the level you get the quest? Trick question. You CAN'T. A barb and a cleric (or if you want to be careful, two cleric) combo can do it together alone and unaided. Sure, venos CAN do Luminoc before 59 cultivation, but it requires 4 of them and if one of those isn't a high mage build, you still might as well give up.

    I suppose what I'm really trying to say here is this: STOP QQing! PWI themselves have called the Veno a solo class. That means that, yes. They are GOOD at what they do. SOLOING. Does that make them overpowered? It depends on the situation. Every class has their strong points. Just because the Veno's are more obvious doesn't mean we all have to act like children.
  • Enina - Heavens Tear
    Enina - Heavens Tear Posts: 263 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Every single class can solo. We just have different strengths. The veno's strength lies within her ability to use tanking pets, and thus stay at a same range from the monster she's attacking. Take the pet away from a veno, and she'll usually die faster than a wizard in the way of Krimson.

    To summarise the solo capabilities...

    Barbarian: Low damage, but insanely high health and physical defence. Only really have a serious problem with running, magical mobs.
    Blademaster: Great versatility, capable of stunning and even doing quite a few distanced attacks.
    Archer: Knockback, slow, good odds of doing criticals. A good mob is a dead mob.
    Wizard: Insanely high potential damage, can two or three-shot most enemies at the same level. Is at risk if anything comes close, however.
    Cleric: Self-healing, can potentially tank anything that doesn't one-shot, in any amounts needed, by massively spamming heals on itself - and can still do damage to mobs inbetween healing. However, dies fast if it cannot manage to heal itself.

    What we immediately notice is that the Barbarian and Wizard are opposites. Barbarians are built to withstand blows from just about everything, while the wizard mutilates anything that breathes in their direction. A barbarian + wizard squad is a dangerous force, capable of taking on just about any type of mob with the lowest possible damage taken. The wizard is even capable of very basic healing, should it be needed in an emergency.

    The cleric does less damage than the wizard, but has the added strength of healing powers. Turn the stacked healing from the cleric onto the barbarian or blademaster, and they become a literal chainsaw.

    Archers have a huge problem because of their insanely high damage - put them together with a barbarian or blademaster, and the monster will usually come running at the archer no matter what. Pairing with a cleric or wizard can help solve this problem as there are heals as well as added destructive power.

    The veno... Doesn't really fit into these pairings. The pet usually tanks, fulfilling the barbarian's role. The veno doesn't take damage, rendering the cleric's main purpose useless. The archer would steal aggro from the pet and cause damage to himself in a very short amount of time. The wizard would do the same as the archer, with the exception that the wizard would probably die. That means that a veno would actually only work well with a blademaster, who can do secondary damage without stealing aggro from the pet and help kill the monster faster.

    The same, really, applies to squads running on FBs or bosses. Bring two venos who will heal the one tanking pet, the cleric tries throwing spells at the monster instead of heals everywhere, the wizard hums "99 bottles of beer on a wall", throw a spell after each chorus, and the archer sits around looking stupid because they can't attack until the boss is around half health. And the barbarian and blademaster, of course, are chewing on the boss' leg and being ignored completely.
  • Cargham - Sanctuary
    Cargham - Sanctuary Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    I replaced that stun with bash and steal agro from barbs all the time.b:chuckle

    Only in TT though. The rest of the time they keep it easy.
    um zoe are you a complete idiot? did you not read the stuns extra effect it increases attack rate for a veno who apparently can take aggro from barbs which is a load of bull you dont know one thing about legendary pets you dont remove the skills they have thats the whole purpose of a legendary pet they have rare skills its like taking a nuke " o this isnt strong enough" and throwing a couple of grenades at a monster pretty pointless b:question
  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    chipsing1234 wrote: »
    You seem to have missed the other veno who got the two rarest drops and two more drops from a single boss in one run.
    Yes, I've been comparing that. I asked a veno yesterday how long it took for her to solo TT 1-1, and she said 20 minutes, and that was multitasking. Squad mode can't get any shorter than that. And it seems as you haven't done TT before, because squad mode requires at least 4 people, and the drops are rarely multiplied by that amount. In fact, I did a TT 1-2 run two days ago, and guess how many mats dropped on the last boss? One. Sometimes 0 drops from the second-to-last-boss. Solo mode may have fewer drops, but squad mode drops aren't hot either, and have to usually be divided by six.
    First, that other veno said herself she was exceptionally surprised at having got such good drops. Pretty rare for both bosses to drop double.

    I don't remember if she was doing squad mode, but I seem to recal she had been. Makes a difference, as well as her level makes a difference.. Higher level Veno's can solo lower level nstances a lot easier.

    That veno you asked how long it took them to do TT 1-1.. WHAT LEVEL were they? saying it took 20 minutes to do TT 1-1 w/o stating the level of the Veno is misleading. Chances are, their 7x and not below 70. At 70 I can solo TT 1-1 in about that time as well but when I was lower I couldn't.

    Squad mode can get shorter than that with a squad.. but you do have to be much higher level than the TT.

    NOW... Heres some info for you that will pop your eyes.

    Just did TT 1-2 solo after having done a solo FB59. Those TT Bosses are EASIER than FB59 Bosses. That is right Chippy.. EASIER. FB 59 bosses require me to almost constantly spam heal my Herc to keep him alive... yet I can toss in a few spells here and there with TT 1-2 solo mode bosses.

    Also I noticed you never bothered commenting on my 5 solo TT 1-2 runs I posted that sunk your Veno's make more in TT runs because they solo them QQ so here, I will post it again.

    TT 1-2 Solo Mode Drops (from 24 mobs and 2 Bosses, time averaged for each run... 1 hour,
    including time outside of TT, putting stuff in bank, repairing armor, NPCing DQ and running
    back to do another TT after resetting the instance as well as bathroom breaks (I drink a lot of coffee)

    Run 1:

    Initial Cost -55000 for Ultimate Substance
    Repairs: -308

    Chientiens Armor Shard (+15000ea - lowest offer on server): 1
    Framework of Drum (+250000ea - lowest offer on server): 1
    Mirage Celestones (+20000ea - What I sell them for): 3
    Mysterious Skull (+3000ea - lowest offer on server): 2
    Seele Token (+2900): 1
    Element Diamond (+2900): 0
    Strong Venom (+2900): 1
    Flat Peach (+2900): 1
    Element Core (+3350): 0
    Lethal Venom (+3350): 1
    Jade Juyi (+3350): 1
    Broken Cyan Jade (+1080): 0
    Glaze (+500): 1
    Crusade Order III:A (+20000): 0
    Azureworm Silk (+500): 0

    Total Profit for the run: 291592 coin

    Run 2:

    Initial Cost -55000 for Ultimate Substance
    Repairs: -299

    Chientiens Armor Shard (+15000ea - lowest offer on server): 1
    Framework of Drum (+250000ea - lowest offer on server): 0
    Mirage Celestones (+20000ea - What I sell them for): 2
    Mysterious Skull (+3000ea - lowest offer on server): 5
    Seele Token (+2900): 0
    Element Diamond (+2900): 3
    Strong Venom (+2900): 2
    Flat Peach (+2900): 1
    Element Core (+3350): 1
    Lethal Venom (+3350): 2
    Jade Juyi (+3350): 0
    Broken Cyan Jade (+1080): 1
    Glaze (+500): 0
    Crusade Order III:A (+20000): 0
    Azureworm Silk (+500): 0

    Total Profit for the run: 43231

    Run 3:

    Initial Cost -55000 for Ultimate Substance
    Repairs: -918

    Chientiens Armor Shard (+15000ea - lowest offer on server): 0
    Framework of Drum (+250000ea - lowest offer on server): 0
    Mirage Celestones (+20000ea - What I sell them for): 3
    Mysterious Skull (+3000ea - lowest offer on server): 4
    Seele Token (+2900): 0
    Element Diamond (+2900): 3
    Strong Venom (+2900): 3
    Flat Peach (+2900): 1
    Element Core (+3350): 1
    Lethal Venom (+3350): 1
    Jade Juyi (+3350): 0
    Broken Cyan Jade (+1080): 0
    Glaze (+500): 0
    Crusade Order III:A (+20000): 1
    Azureworm Silk (+500): 0

    Total Profit for the run: 63082

    Run 4:

    Initial Cost -55000 for Ultimate Substance
    Repairs: -167

    Chientiens Armor Shard (+15000ea - lowest offer on server): 1
    Framework of Drum (+250000ea - lowest offer on server): 1
    Mirage Celestones (+20000ea - What I sell them for): 2
    Mysterious Skull (+3000ea - lowest offer on server): 4
    Seele Token (+2900): 0
    Element Diamond (+2900): 2
    Strong Venom (+2900): 2
    Flat Peach (+2900): 0
    Element Core (+3350): 1
    Lethal Venom (+3350): 0
    Jade Juyi (+3350): 0
    Broken Cyan Jade (+1080): 0
    Glaze (+500): 0
    Crusade Order III:A (+20000): 1
    Azureworm Silk (+500): 1

    Total Profit for the run: 277283

    Run 5:

    Initial Cost -55000 for Ultimate Substance
    Repairs: -436

    Chientiens Armor Shard (+15000ea - lowest offer on server): 1
    Framework of Drum (+250000ea - lowest offer on server): 0
    Mirage Celestones (+20000ea - What I sell them for): 4
    Mysterious Skull (+3000ea - lowest offer on server): 4
    Seele Token (+2900): 1
    Element Diamond (+2900): 0
    Strong Venom (+2900): 1
    Flat Peach (+2900): 0
    Element Core (+3350): 0
    Lethal Venom (+3350): 2
    Jade Juyi (+3350): 0
    Broken Cyan Jade (+1080): 0
    Glaze (+500): 0
    Crusade Order III:A (+20000): 0
    Azureworm Silk (+500): 0

    Total Profit for the run: 64064

    running TT 1-2 profit total: 739252 (147850.4 coin per hour)

    Now, as I am a more cautious player in instances I admit I can make these runs a bit faster if I was more willing to risk getting myself killed. But I would rather take a bit more time and not die, than power through a run in 45 minutes and get killed a few times for doing it.

    Also chippy... If you say "well you can go farm the matts for ultimate subs, that removes the cost for them and makes your profit higher" WRONG. Farming them takes TIME and you have to factor that into your profit margin. It means you make LESS per run if you farm the matts yourself, than if you buy them outright.

    Nuff said. your arguments are dead. Give it up you fail.

    ~Saitada

    *edit* btw, it takes me 15-20 minutes per boss in FB59 -vs- 5 minutes to take out EITHER boss in TT 1-2. In FB59 I burn 2 - 2 3/4 bars of mana to drop one boss and in TT 1-2 I burn less than 1 bar to drop either boss. TT *?* bosses are EASIER to kill than FB59 bosses. By a LONG shot.

    ~S
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Cargham - Sanctuary wrote: »
    um zoe are you a complete idiot? did you not read the stuns extra effect it increases attack rate for a veno who apparently can take aggro from barbs which is a load of bull you dont know one thing about legendary pets you dont remove the skills they have thats the whole purpose of a legendary pet they have rare skills its like taking a nuke " o this isnt strong enough" and throwing a couple of grenades at a monster pretty pointless b:question

    Stun doesn't do squat on bosses, they are immune to stuns. The stun has to actually work for the attack rate increase.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Stun doesn't do squat on bosses, they are immune to stuns. The stun has to actually work for the attack rate increase.
    hmmm I could swear i've seen a boss or mini boss be stunned. I am probably wrong there as I honestly wasn't paying much attention to that. I do know it's a great pulling tool though. Stun the mob despawn herc, respawn about the time the mobs coming out of stun.

    Ill keep my stun.

    ~S
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    hmmm I could swear i've seen a boss or mini boss be stunned. I am probably wrong there as I honestly wasn't paying much attention to that. I do know it's a great pulling tool though. Stun the mob despawn herc, respawn about the time the mobs coming out of stun.

    Ill keep my stun.

    ~S

    I don't pull with herc, I tank the whole darn room. Though if that is too much I send him in, let him hit a monster then have him walk back to me. He's tough enough to drag a few monsters and not die as I make sure to get them all hit to avoid heal agro if they are ranged. Have to do something when you are alone and need to pull. Did that when I ran 1-3 squad mode on my own earlier.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Cargham - Sanctuary wrote: »
    um zoe are you a complete idiot? did you not read the stuns extra effect it increases attack rate for a veno who apparently can take aggro from barbs which is a load of bull you dont know one thing about legendary pets you dont remove the skills they have thats the whole purpose of a legendary pet they have rare skills its like taking a nuke " o this isnt strong enough" and throwing a couple of grenades at a monster pretty pointless b:question

    Attack rate increase, or casting speed increase? And is it just for the veno, or anyone attacking the mob?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Attack rate increase, or casting speed increase? And is it just for the veno, or anyone attacking the mob?
    I believe it's just for the Veno's pet. Although from the skills description that's ambiguous.

    Have 80% chance to stun enemy for 3 seconds
    Increase attack rate by 25% if enemy is stunned

    ~S
  • OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »
    I believe it's just for the Veno's pet. Although from the skills description that's ambiguous.

    Have 80% chance to stun enemy for 3 seconds
    Increase attack rate by 25% if enemy is stunned

    ~S

    Sounds like it means it buffs the Herc's attack rate only.

    What's the CD on it, and what's the damage it does?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Sounds like it means it buffs the Herc's attack rate only.

    What's the CD on it, and what's the damage it does?

    1 minute cooldown, does no damage.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    1 minute cooldown, does no damage.

    Then, by my calculations, whoever called you an idiot, is dumb because Bash will deal a great deal more damage, and generates a ton more aggro because of it. Even Bash 3 + auto attack will deal more damage than the stun hitting and the attack rate increasing, and THAT is assuming Bash takes up one of the attacks over a period of 8 seconds, or the time it takes for Bash to reset.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Zoe - Heavens Tear
    Zoe - Heavens Tear Posts: 3,814 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Then, by my calculations, whoever called you an idiot, is dumb because Bash will deal a great deal more damage, and generates a ton more aggro because of it. Even Bash 3 + auto attack will deal more damage than the stun hitting and the attack rate increasing, and THAT is assuming Bash takes up one of the attacks over a period of 8 seconds, or the time it takes for Bash to reset.

    Also, the attack rate increase of pounce only works if the monster gets stunned. Bosses are immune to stun, making the skill 100% worthless.
    Main characters
    Celestial Sage Venomancer Zoe - 100
    Sage Barbarian Malego - 91
  • OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear Posts: 2,327 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Zoe - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Also, the attack rate increase of pounce only works if the monster gets stunned. Bosses are immune to stun, making the skill 100% worthless.

    Well, that too, but even just in general use, Bash is just better at setting up an initial aggro threshold.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    OMGLAZERZ - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Well, that too, but even just in general use, Bash is just better at setting up an initial aggro threshold.
    I might haffa look into that.

    ~S
  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    ok Chippy here is some more info for you...

    Level 70 LA build Veno with Level 70 Hercules. Used Soothing Orbs (repleneshes 6000 mana in 30 seconds)
    to replenish mana pool for this test. Mana pool is 5284 mana (not counting mana regenerated naturally
    while fighting the bosses).

    Zimo
    started at 7:48pm finished at 8:04pm - 16 minutes to kill.
    Used just over 2.5 bars of mana, 2.5 bars of mana = 13210 points of mana.

    Oftis
    started at 8:14pm finished at 8:30pm - 16 minutes to kill.
    Used just over 2.5 bars of mana.

    Qianji
    started at 9:40pm finished at 9:54pm - 14 minutes to kill
    Used just over 2.25 bars of mana.

    Raving Drake Brute
    started at 9:57pm finished at 10:13pm - 16 minutes to kill
    Used just over 2.5 bars of mana.

    Gluttonix
    started at 10:30pm finished at 10:48pm - 18 minutes to kill
    Used just over 2.75 bars of mana.

    I wined this run and got two 3* drops, a mess of garbage drops, and it took me over an hour and a half to do it. Total profit after repairs, factoring in the costs of the Soothing Orbs ( I used 10 of them), and the time it took me to mine the matts for the wine... (a bit over 2 and a half hours)

    I LOST money. Yeah real UBER money making doing FB runs! Yup, sure am getting rich! Can't make great money from TT runs... Can't make great money from FB runs.. that leaves grinding mobs, where I know I can actually make 150-200k an hour if I bust them out...

    So..... I Just busted your theory that Veno's make mad money doing FB runs as well....

    Of course, if a mold had dropped my profit would have been much better but molds are RARE drops. So more runs happen that don't get molds by far, than runs that do. I've made I think 6 FB59 runs... not a single mold and the most 3*'s I got was 4, none of which managed to sell for more than 80k ea for some reason (in AH, I had one up for sale for over 10 days, repeatedly for 100k and it never sold. Dropped my price to 75k start and got 80k for it.).

    So....

    What ya gotta say now chippy? hmmmmm?

    ~S

    *edit* So much for your theory that Veno's pet heal costs so little mana...
  • Saitada - Sanctuary
    Saitada - Sanctuary Posts: 3,220 Arc User
    edited February 2009
    Oh and btw chippy... "Hinting at your mains level" doesn't mean a damn thing. Post with your main coward. I can "claim" my main is any level I want if I'm hiding behind an alt. Claiming something doesn't mean a damn thing. PROOF or STFU already.

    I've busted every argument you've tried to lay out with hard facts taken directly from MY runs. Yet you persist arguing with me and on top of it all, are too chicken **** to post with your "supposed" high level main.

    So... PROOF. Post with your Main so we can all laugh at you.

    Nuff said. I'm done here. I win, you lost, your an idiot, we all know it.

    ~Saitada

    *edit* Yay, Crazy Stone leveled me up, i'm 71 now! WOOT!
  • tr0oll
    tr0oll Posts: 174 Arc User
    edited March 2009
    Well... if you venos wanna QQ about being nerfed, then I'm gonna QQ about archers and QQ more about giving them a rage of 100 meters, so we can sit near Secret passage and kill you at Orchid Temple.

    Don't like it? quit the class. The customer is always right.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    IGN: Purified, Harshlands
    I'm the Veno with a phoenix zerging your ****

    Signature by Sev
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