Veno's bramble hood got nerfed?! wtf?

Saitada - Sanctuary wrote: »

Veno's are designed to SOLO. This means *gasps* we are an independent class. You people never figure that out do you? Veno's are DESIGNED to solo. We are DESIGNED not to need your help very much. We are DESIGNED to be "so much an independent class".

I swear you Veno haters just never learn that or get it through your all to obviously thick god damned skulls.

Flesh Ream needs fixed yes. Veno's don't. Oh I forgot, you just don't want any competition do you. 'OMG Veno's have something that makes them slightly better than worthless now quick whine to get them nerfed back to worthlessness again.'

Go slice your wrists, your as pathetic as chipsing1234 with his lame arguments that Veno's and OTHER CLASSES as well, shot to pieces.

~Saitada

We can't get it through our "thick skulls?"
I perfectly understand that venos are a soloing class. I even read that before I started the game.
I didn't care about venos either, for a while. They were simply another class. Sure, I thought it was a bit strange that I'd have to use so many pots and focus on my health bar so much while venos just sent in their pets and killed the same mob in a few seconds, but I didn't care that much.
Even when I was in my 5xes and talking to a veno going for a hercules, I was all "go for it." After all, it was pretty expensive.
Back then I was a nub and hardly knew what TT was. I noticed something was weird when a veno in my old guild said "dropping below 1.8 mil...better do some more TT runs." I thought..."wait, those things that are selling for 250k or 300k each?" But I didn't say anything.
When I reached 6x I set out to do TT runs to make my weapon. I tried solo mode. With a cleric. Not only did it cost the cleric a bunch of pots, but my weapon and armor a bunch of repairs. It dropped 0 edges. I didn't care so much about wasting my time as wasting the cleric's, the rare one that was nice enough to let me have the drops for my weapon, time. Wasted his pots, time, and patience.
I ended up having to buy the edges. Guess from who? A veno. They farm at their leisure, not having to worry about relying on anyone else. Why are they granted this power? Sure they're solo classes. We know that. But should they be given this much soloing power? Aren't bosses meant to require squads? If venos can solo them, they might as well be called elite elite mobs, because they are reduced to being a simple mob with more hp and attack. Sure venos can solo. They already kill mobs 1v1 (as is normal) very easily. They already consume relatively little resources compared to other classes. They are the healers of their own tank, the wizards against their foe. As if this wasn't enough, they can solo parts of TT. I don't think they realize how much time is saved from trying to find a squad. Barbs are in demand and fairly rare to find, and clerics with charms who want to do TT, as well. Those two classes usually get priority over the drops, as they did the most work. If the squad is lucky, hopefully everyone will get at least one mat. Did I mention this was squad mode and takes hour upon hours?
Some venos have complained getting little drops in TT. What about the times you got more than one drop throughout the entire run of all the bosses you could solo? That's right, more than one drop in the entire run. Because in a squad, that's usually the most anyone gets after splitting the mats. You don't come close to using as much charm as mages, or repairs of melees. Also, you didn't have to wait hours or days for a squad to become available, nor worry about having to work with anyone.
Why are venos known for being the richest class (and this is before TT)? Why do people create veno alts to make money? Why do people create veno alts for farming TT? If such a class can do all these things by itself, can it be considered balanced with the rest of the classes?
Yes, venos can solo. But to this extent? With hercules, they can nearly solo the game. Up to a point, soloing is fair and understandable. Past a point, soloing becomes exploitable, and a clear advantage held high over the advantages of any other class.

Don't want to jump on this too harshly since this time I actually think you make a pretty good argument. But I think some clarification is necessary.

chipsing1234 wrote: »

Sure they're solo classes. We know that. But should they be given this much soloing power? Aren't bosses meant to require squads?

There are solo and squad TT modes. Most of the venos talking about soloing TT are talking about the solo mode. At higher level you can solo the squad mode, but then "at higher level" is true for all the classes for most of the content. Also, the fact that solo TT mode even exists I think is a pretty good indicator that the bosses in there were meant to be soloable.

They are the healers of their own tank, the wizards against their foe.

The veno heal and DD spells are considerably worse than a cleric's or a wizard's. A L53 veno (the heal gets upgraded at 23, 33, 43, etc) can't keep the pet healed against the FB51 bosses. A L53 cleric could keep a L53 barb healed against the same bosses.

The power of the veno comes from the combination of heal and tank in one package. Not because the heal is comparable to a cleric's.

I don't think they realize how much time is saved from trying to find a squad. Barbs are in demand and fairly rare to find, and clerics with charms who want to do TT, as well.

That's not really a problem with venos, is it? If you deleted venos from the game, barbs would still have huge repair bills and thus would be hard to find. And clerics would still be reluctant to spend their charms to do TT.

Some venos have complained getting little drops in TT. What about the times you got more than one drop throughout the entire run of all the bosses you could solo? That's right, more than one drop in the entire run. Because in a squad, that's usually the most anyone gets after splitting the mats.

Drop rates in solo TT are lower than in squad. There's a pretty informative thread in the veno forum about TT's right now. I'm sure some of it will provide you with more ammo, but it should also help to clear up some misconceptions. e.g. they don't solo all the bosses - some are so hard they usually just skip them.

You don't come close to using as much charm as mages, or repairs of melees. Also, you didn't have to wait hours or days for a squad to become available, nor worry about having to work with anyone.

The class wouldn't be viable as a solo class if it had those costs. Who in their right mind would play a class which had the repair costs of a barb, and the charm costs of a cleric + mage? By definition, a solo class has to have lower costs. The penalty has to come elsewhere, usually a lack of contribution (and thus desirability) to parties.

Grouping works by amortizing those costs across the group. The barb tanks and has repair costs, but it saves everyone else from having (armor) repair costs thereby effectively reducing the cost to 1/6th per person. The mage shouldn't need charms since other party members can do damage allowing him to use powders and natural regen to provide mana.

The real question is whether a group of 3 non-venos (cleric, barb, DD) is >= 3x more effective than a veno solo.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Don't want to jump on this too harshly since this time I actually think you make a pretty good argument. But I think some clarification is necessary.


There are solo and squad TT modes. Most of the venos talking about soloing TT are talking about the solo mode. At higher level you can solo the squad mode, but then "at higher level" is true for all the classes for most of the content. Also, the fact that solo TT mode even exists I think is a pretty good indicator that the bosses in there were meant to be soloable.

Are you suggesting this mode was basically created for venos? The age old question of why this (rather large, distinct advantage) is granted to that class only is brought up. As far as I know, this mode can only be "soloed" by any other class with a cleric, which then, in the context of fairness, requires the already sparse mat drops to be divided by two, instead of all kept by one.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The veno heal and DD spells are considerably worse than a cleric's or a wizard's. A L53 veno (the heal gets upgraded at 23, 33, 43, etc) can't keep the pet healed against the FB51 bosses. A L53 cleric could keep a L53 barb healed against the same bosses.

Note that you're directly comparing a veno (by itself) with the game's counterpart of what tanking a boss is meant to be. Comparing one with two people. Get a squad of 2-3 venos, and they can keep a simple magmite alive against Rankar. How do i know this? Because I was in one that was composed of, and did exactly that. These venos were all in their early 5xes. Basically, venos became the barbs and clerics. Didn't know classes were allowed to take the roles of others so relatively easily. Oh wait, only one class is..

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The power of the veno comes from the combination of heal and tank in one package. Not because the heal is comparable to a cleric's.

Exactly. That was my point. The heal isn't comparable to a cleric's, but if it's enough to get past a number of important bosses (i.e several TT bosses, such as 3/5 in TT 1-2, the other two of which usually couldn't be done without two clerics anyway even with a squad), what does it matter? As long as the pet is able to stay alive, the heal has done its job.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

That's not really a problem with venos, is it? If you deleted venos from the game, barbs would still have huge repair bills and thus would be hard to find. And clerics would still be reluctant to spend their charms to do TT.

That is true. However, it's beside the point. Venos are allowed to bypass the figurative "squad-requirement" that every other class needs. They don't need to suffer the same time-restraint and squad-finding task every other class has to go through. Why only them? Sure one may say they keep prices low, but in that context, are venos not then using a class-only advantage to rake in large sums of money? The money earned through that method can become so great it's ridiculous. I re-iterate my witness of a veno in my faction. He got a hercules, spent 9 days straight "farming" TT, got 20 mil, and bought a phoenix. Making over 2 mil a day from TT. True, such an instance is only with this specific veno, but he demonstrates just how much the ability can be exploited. Being able to make such economic advances in so short a time - with only one class - is clearly imbalanced towards other classes.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Drop rates in solo TT are lower than in squad. There's a pretty informative thread in the veno forum about TT's right now. I'm sure some of it will provide you with more ammo, but it should also help to clear up some misconceptions. e.g. they don't solo all the bosses - some are so hard they usually just skip them.

Yes I know. But as I pointed out, even if they get more one drop throughout the entire run, it's already more than most people get on average in squad mode, in one run. And again, they did not have to bother forming a squad, use up as many resources, nor worry about fair distribution. And yes, they can't solo all the bosses, but enough (3/5 in 1-2, for example: the other two most squads need 2 clerics regardless) to get several drops.

Solandri - Heavens Tear wrote: »

The class wouldn't be viable as a solo class if it had those costs. Who in their right mind would play a class which had the repair costs of a barb, and the charm costs of a cleric + mage? By definition, a solo class has to have lower costs. The penalty has to come elsewhere, usually a lack of contribution (and thus desirability) to parties.

Grouping works by amortizing those costs across the group. The barb tanks and has repair costs, but it saves everyone else from having (armor) repair costs thereby effectively reducing the cost to 1/6th per person. The mage shouldn't need charms since other party members can do damage allowing him to use powders and natural regen to provide mana.

The real question is whether a group of 3 non-venos (cleric, barb, DD) is >= 3x more effective than a veno solo.

I never suggested venos should have all those costs. I was pointing out the giant amounts of money saved comparing veno (single person, mind you) solo runs with squad (usually 6 people) runs, but having similar rewards (the one-mat-per-person argument). True a solo class should have its own repair costs. But being able to get the same ([usually] more) rewards from an event that a squad does, as well as reducing the resources used for the event (far less charm use than the clerics/wizzes combined, far less repair costs than barbs - adds up to hundreds of thousands) by such an extent implicates too much of an advantage.

Only thing overpowered about a veno is the phoenix, and maybe the herc. End of discussion.

Foxx_trott - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I guess I need to start looking for another new game to play. It is too bad too, I was really starting to enjoy this one.

Pretty much every game I've ever played, sooner or later the cry babies on the forums finally get their way, and get other classes nerfed. It is like it's a power trip to get GM's to change the game because they kicked and screamed like a spoiled child in a Walmart Toy Department screaming for their parents to buy them something.

A few years back in another game I've played this same thing happened and a couple clases got nerfed, then the next year another class got nerfed, and over and over classes kept getting the nerf bat. Eventually the game lost the majority of it's player base. It was all because of idiots whining on forums until they got their way. Now that the game only has a fraction of it's player base anymore, the whiners complain about the servers being dead, and how there is nobody to pvp against anymore.

When it is all said and done, these whiners who are the minority, themselves ruin the game for everyone else, who is the vast majority. And after they have nobody left to upset because many people left the game due to nerfs. They whine on the forums about how the game now sucks, that nobody plays it anymore. And how there is nobody to pvp against anymore, because the game eroded due to constant nerfs pissing off the player base over the years.

These malcontents who just whine and complain about things day in and day out, only ruin things for everyone. And eventually ruin it for themselves in the long run. The sadest thing about it all is, these game companies after being bombarded with all these complaints by a few, buckle and ruin the game for the many.

Sounds like a DeAd Online game i Chose to play a long time ago b:chuckle

This made me laugh as I read further and further into this **** heap of an arguement. Veno Haters don't see eye to eye, and neither do venos or the non veno haters. Let's face it: Veno's are needed for other classes to survive at higher levels. I don't mean tanking. I don't mean pulling. Nothing ACTUAL exp wise or killing.

I mean through farming. They're the only class that can solo/get materials without dying a horrific death. They're the class that SUPPLIES items to the classes that arn't so fortunate. So what I see, is that if you can't show off that you're awesome and get out classed by a veno, you need to cry to the admins for huge nurfing.

They were made to solo, they were made to be alone for those who HATE other people being with them. If Veno's can't solo TT or HH or any other hugely needed **** area for materials to make your much needed high lvl ****, then how would you get it? Squads? Good luck. We saw in other posts how much of a pain in your **** it is wasting time, money, effort and patience with yourself and others to get ONE mat or more. Just stop crying, deal with what you got and that you, yourself, didn't make a veno.

It's **** seeing the **** people say. I know I sound stupid myself to people's minds, but hey, we're all talking ****. We all have our beliefs and opinions, it doesn't mean one opinion is better than another.

1: We ALL agree to terms that Pheonix's Fresh Realm is bugged. They need to fix it.

2: Nurfing venos for it is stupid, clearly. We all mostly agreed to it.

What people DON'T seem to understand is that when it all comes down to it, people rely more on Venomancers when it comes to getting materials they need and fast. So just be happy a veno will sell a mold to you and get a life. MMO's aren't made for drama and flying horse ****. It's meant for people to get together, escape real life and have some damn fun for once. -.-; (I can see someone telling me to get a life, but I have one. I have a rl bf, I have full time college AND a job. I think i got enough time outside)

Picexplorer - Heavens Tear wrote: »

ur just trying to console ur self and ur pathetic overpowered veno community.
if u see it clearly around u, i think u might be seeing the same barb everytime running , flying along with u for WQ...lol

anyways.. m outtie..if pwi staff dnt consider to put every char balance, then i think one day all other chars{except veno's} just like barb, will leave the game....
w00t..u veno's can then try pulling each other's pant in duel b:thanks

Dont speak like that to any Veno we are a class you know discrimination, why not join the Veno liberal front yes thats right the VLF we dont take **** from any other class, we confront any one that mentions our name just pm Sadita for info. sorry Saitada

i don't think bramble's nerf in PvP is due to venos being able to solo so well. it really has no impact on a veno's soloing capabilities.

fuzzles wrote: »

God damnit, will the mods please stop removing every single post that may or may not slightly offend someone.

There's a reason 99% of all posts on these damn forums are incoherent festering cesspools of idiocy. It's because all the coherent ones tend to get removed.

I guess I gotta rephrase my previous, deleted post in a more family friendly way so the trigger-happy mods don't go delete it. Ya know.. to spare people's feelings. Never mind that the person the post was directed at had already read it and already responded to it. Might as well delete it anyway. Great job closing the barn door, mods. Now run along, if you hurry, you might be able to stop the economic depression.



swgs.. I love you as a fellow human being and as a fellow voyager on this wonderful spaceship we know as Earth. I respect your opinion regardless of what it may be, and understand that you are entitled to it. However, if I may, I would like to point out a couple of teensy-tiny little problems with your point of view. I would like to venture the hypothesis that if every single person on the server was playing a veno, that most people would consider the game to be much worse than if there was a relatively even spread of classes.

Please understand that the opinions expressed within this post are not intended to offend anyone at all in the slightest. If you are even vaguely offended by this post, feel free to give me a call, toll-free. I will put you on hold, and play annoying music until you give up.

I love you, swgs, even if you may or may not have a relatively common condition which may or may not be commonly known as "idiocy".

I wish you luck in your future life, and hope that you succeed despite your affliction which may or may not be widely considered to be "idiocy".
b:heart

....because God forbid that anyone step on anyone else's toes or present a conflicting perspective on a forum designed for the exchange of opinions...

I love this post so epic xD

to stay semi-on topic. please nerf every class except wiz xD

swgs wrote: »

I do not understand all those discussions, if venos are soo good, why don't people think veno is overpower just play a veno?

If we followed your advice the whole server would be venomancer which would make the game stupid and boring. A game is considered good when there is diversity and many different things to do as well as "fairness".

The point here is: "So what if bramble got nerfed" venos still have their phoenix which is what people complain most about. Nerfing bramble only seems like a fair thing to do because melee classes have to chase a veno around while in a fight while her phoenix is destroying you. So what you also want to have a skill that makes ur opponent kick the **** out of himself once you catch up to the veno and finally manage to hit her? Now ur just being way too greedy b:surrender

mbrunestud wrote: »

are you freaking blind? ppl say venos lvl faster b/c venos have the least trouble taking on mobs of all kinds. just look at how archers, wizards have to fight melee mobs, how bms, barbs fare against magic mobs. a kill quota quest takes at least twice as long as an archer and probably takes twice the pots than it takes as a veno. ****** actually play an archer for once b4 u talk.

Sorry but no. I know an archer. He kills things his level in seconds. I can't do that. He kills 5x faster than I do.

RaijinRyu - Lost City wrote: »

If we followed your advice the whole server would be venomancer which would make the game stupid and boring. A game is considered good when there is diversity and many different things to do as well as "fairness".

The point here is: "So what if bramble got nerfed" venos still have their phoenix which is what people complain most about. Nerfing bramble only seems like a fair thing to do because melee classes have to chase a veno around while in a fight while her phoenix is destroying you. So what you also want to have a skill that makes ur opponent kick the **** out of himself once you catch up to the veno and finally manage to hit her? Now ur just being way too greedy b:surrender

I haven't even touch the topic about hood Nerf as far. I personally do not care if hood get nerfed or not. I am saying go play a veno just because a lots of people think venos can make as much coins as they want. And venos overall are overpowered. I do still stand on my point, go play one before you think you know everything about veno. Add a personally advice here, you will be very very disappointed if you do not have $400 to spend.
Now about your point. What about if I do not have a phoenix? what % of venos actually have a phoenix in this game? before we get phoenix, all a veno can do when attacked by a barb is hood and run away, as a barb, can you tell me a way I can win a battle with you if I do not have a phoenix (actually it is still almost impossible to kill a barb even with a phoenix if the barb know what he is doing)? The whole point of damage refection is to give a veno 15 seconds to rebuff or escape in most of the case without being attacked. without hood reflect damage, please tell me a way how a veno can even escape when being constantly attacked (even you have a stun)? How can a veno survive the next attack if they managed to survive the opening shot from a archer or wizard when they usually 1 shot most venos? 95%+ veno just need that 15 seconds to survive, it is what your call “way to greedy”?
Finally my opinion about this nerf. It is not right to nerf a skill to balance out the power of CS pets.

Fleuri - Sanctuary wrote: »

I have a venomancer friend, and she has not been able to keep up with me. (And I have never used training esoterica, but she has.)

b:cry

When we have to kite, our damage rate might slow down be comparable with a venomancer's? (I have seen venomancers with faster kill rates than me, but when venomancers can one-shot stuff I am questing against, I think this might be because of level differences.)

There is no way a veno can out damage you, but they will kill more mobs then you is the same amount of time. because they do not need to kit and rest. My archer kills much faster than my veno and she does not need to kite a lot, but she needs to use HP/MP charms to kill non stop. it is the only reason she can level up faster then my veno