1 thing straight about cleric stronger than mage

Actually, by time you're level 100 you'd have at least 3 sparks, using 1 to use manifest virtue and the other 2 for black dragon would out damage a clerics ult. Though, the actually manifest virtue is less power than an advanced spark, it just last longer.

fuzzles wrote: »

Just one more idiot.

You cannot count cleric buffs as being exclusively for them.

In any situation where it actually matters, a wizard will have full cleric buffs.

Face it.. a cleric can't hold a candle to a wizard damage-wise. Not sure why that appears to be such a difficult concept.

What kind of cleric is going to follow a wizard around and give him a 10 second buff every time he uses an ult?

i've really never taken on a mage my level before, most of the ones i take on are three or more levels below me. and also i'm pretty sure by level 100 any mage can kill a cleric

I should damn well hope a cleric can beat a wizard in 1 vs. 1. You're a real failure as a cleric if you can't.

But how are you people not getting this?
Wizards do more damage than clerics.
Accept it, move on with your lives!

It's a mixed thing with arguements for and against it depending on which points are looked at. Technically, since a cleric's dmg boost from buffs last a long time with SG and can be easily applied, that skill should count as dmg caused by the mage. However, anyone quoting dmg from the very much active requirement of the 150% boost from a demon spirit's gift as belonging to the mage is very much wrong. All of that extra dmg is attributed to the cleric who cast it; it is their skill use that caused that 10 secs of increased dmg. And finding a lvl 89+ cleric who chooses demon is much more difficult than finding a cleric with a lvl 10 generic buff.

So at this point you have to split it off into solo and party dmg output. With 2 or more other dmg spellcasters, of course the demon cleric will out dmg any wizard. Not only can they consistently use their 10 sec dmg buff back to back on multiple people, it also does not cost any sparks to do so. There is no downtime. The mage skills that are pointed to; the no channel and max dmg buff skills, both have down time and cost either 1 or 2 sparks to use. These are 1 time spike kind of boosts, that themselves prevent the use of high dmg skills to maximize the benefits from.

So while I could focus only on my attack cleric with the SG demon boost and end up dealing a higher dps than a mage over a prolonged period, I would much rather blast his dmg output out of the water by using the boost on the mage and other offensive casters before casting on myself and going into my chain. Because the best part is, the more dmg the mage does, the more dmg my boost will be dealing. So party-wise, not even a contest. Demon attack cleric wins in dmg output for the party. Depending on party make-up, I could cast no offensive skills, just heal, and still out dmg a wizard.

Solo it becomes easier to judge. Wizard can have a pre-existing boost and still not out dps a demon cleric. He has a very good chance to out-spike in a 6 second period after a charm break, but other than that nothing. In the end the boosts just don't last long enough with spark req and cooldowns that prevent a sustained way to match the extra 150% dmg boost a solo cleric will receive everytime they recast.

So that's the basics. A wizard can post a higher spike number than any cleric can when they are assisted by the cleric. They can post a higher DPS than any cleric when assisted by the cleric. But the dmg is not all theirs to claim. It is the active, and the key part here is active use; the normal dmg boost from the half hour/hour long buff is not being counted, that means that extra dmg is coming from the cleric. They are being smart and using the wizard as the vessel to deal more dmg than they could just by themselves.

Other thing is that only a demon cleric can make the wizard post high numbers. If they aren't in the same group, get seperated, one gets dead while the other is still fighting, then the wizard is SOL. A demon cleric never needs an assist to deal his high dmg output.

So in all, yes, the demon attack cleric will add more damage to a party, or by solo, than a wizard will. The only way a wizard beats them is by looking at a very short span of time in solo play; sustained play ends up nullifying that by average dmg. Admittedly neither side so far really considered a compromise of both positions, but this is what it ends up being.

PS. yay for finally getting even crappy dial-up connection. Can't wait to get my satellite internet and start playing again.

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Okay I wanted to get 1 thing straight.

Cleric + Tempest + demons spirits gift = Focus all of your energy to cast down countless thunder bolts at the target and enemies within a 12.0 meter radius around it, inflicting Metal damage equal to your base magic damage plus 620% of weapon damage plus 9337.1. Has a 95% chance to cause a 8.0 second reduction in speed of 60%.

Wizard + Ice dragon strike = Focus one's energy to summon a Water dragon that soars up to the sky and smashes onto the target and all surrounding enemies. Target and enemies in a 12.0 meter radius around target suffer Water damage equal to base magic damage plus 500% of weapon damage plus 9648.9. Has a 95% chance to slow enemies by 60% for 8.0 seconds.

so from that it is clear a cleric out damages a wizard.

But the wizards spell Manifest Virtue - As the recent warring intensifies, the Wizards have managed to create a new method of temporarily enhancing their combat capabilities. This technique involves imbuing their weapons directly with Mana and Chi. Increases magic attack by (maximum mana/100)%. Lasts 30 seconds.

But 620% of weapon damage is not really all that much, since your weapon damage does not take into account your bonus from having lots of magic.

Also, you mentioned Ice Dragon Strike adding 500% of weapon damage and 9648.9 damage. So your wizard had to be level 86 (or higher).

Meanwhile a level 74 wizard can have level 10 water mastery which passively adds 20% water damage. I believe this increases your total magical damage by 20%. If I am right, your base magic attack gets raised 20%, your bonus from your weapon gets raised by 20% and your 9648.9 gets raised by 20%. So with level 10 water mastery, a wizard would have an extra 20% of their magical attack, +600% of their weapon damage, +11578.7.

However, your analysis might have been correct, for wizards without water mastery.

Then again, if your wizard had used essential sutra, she could have cast her ice dragon strike in 1.6 seconds, and could have followed up with glacial snare in another 1.8 seconds. How much damage would your cleric have delivered in this time frame?

Of course all of this assumes ecatomb.net is complete and without flaw, but we know it cannot be complete.

And sensible people should be suspicious of everything they read here.

Oh who cares whoes ult is better, you're both gana get stunned out of it anyways.

Chaotiic - Lost City wrote: »

To compete with a mage damage u need to be pure magic. Pure magic for a cleric is suicidal u will live to get off one spell. If ur 1 spell doesnt 1 shot u are screwed. 9x vs 9x ur tempest probably wont one shot anyone sad fact. The full magic build is not viable in pvp for a cleric anyway so talking about skill damage in pvp is silly.

When u are calculating damage in pvp u also have to consider undine strike vs elemental seal, and the mage in pvp will virtually always have at least a regular spirits gift so 70% mattck. Re-do ur calculations with a mage having the regular spirits gift and undine vs seal, or even just the sg and u will see mage outdamages cleric. Not to mention the larger amount of damaging skills.

Cleric gets max sg at lv 56 many people 86+ have lv 56+ alts and in mass pvp/TW u will always be buffed with mattck (base buffers). Cleric doesnt out-damage a mage however u can do many things better than a mage. Stop trying to take away the one thing mages have going for them.

Dps in fbs cant be considered the mage would never get into the fbb:chuckle.

Either way u should NOT be full magic as a cleric it is a useless build. At low levels where most advocates of the pure build cleric are the difference in damage is barely noticable espacially in pvp, at higher levels u need the vit to survive. To people who say its good for soloing, at 80+ where the difference in damage becomes noticeable u will be grinding in a pt. At lower levels theres just not much of a difference. Whether or not u want to agrue about dealing more or less damage than a mage the build of cleric that stands a chance at this is simply a bad build.

To be able to compete in damage with a full mag cleric, a wizard must also be full mag. Which means they die easy, and is prolly why they are called glass cannons. The skills that get quoted alot are almost the exact same between cleric and mage. The damage difference is very minor, especially when looked at as a percentage of over-all dmg. 100% weapon damage and 492 dmg is not a big deal when base mag is in the 10s of thousands.

And again, for my damage discussions earlier I pointed out how any dmg modification will affect both equally, the only thing that widens the gap is the extra 20% from mastery and 70% from SG both will have times the difference of dmg. Depending on how they apply it, most likely additive, then it is a 190% weapon dmg and 935 dmg difference. Still not much at 9X lvl with high base mag dmg that will shrink in effect the higher they lvl.

What makes mages nice is their unique skills that work well with eachother, and the fact they can be boosted higher by a demon cleric with SG. What scares me the most is that people bring up Essential Sutra, and the only time they mention Undine on rare occasions is to say it reduces resists. Either they are thinking of AoE spiking only, or they are really terrible at math.

Undine has a casting time of .5. Allow me to repeat, Undine has a casting time of .5. The mag reduce is nice, but very little will compete with Undine when you have no channeling time. Multiply your mag atk by 2.2 and see if that number is larger than 500% weapon dmg plus 14k means that Undine has a higher DPS rate with no spark cost. So mention whether it is AoE or taking out a solo target, or if you're doing it on the hope you get the boosts from ice dragon being sage/demon. Though since I already have a roughly 8k avg base attk at lvl 83 and you need 99 to get the celestial skill, it is guaranteed that undine has better DPS by a margin that keeps growing.

Also, I did mention flat out I did not count the dmg boost from a long duration SG being cast as coming from the demon cleric. Any cleric can cast that, so the dmg is considered the mages. No active skill use and ready availability makes quibbling about that pointless. But active use of the 150% boost from demon SG is as good as the cleric's damage. It takes active skill use, is difficult to have available, and must have many circumstances converge for it to happen. As such, the extra demon portion of the skill can be counted as the cleric's.

To simplify, if the demon cleric is not part of the party, all casters can be counted as having SG anyways. Don't bring the demon cleric in the party, and not getting the 150% extra boost is just as guaranteed. Not a big problem when there is only 1 caster, but 2 or more offensive means the demon cleric will be more use damage-wise than adding a wizard.

Also, when talking about spell combos, it must be taken into account that it is party based when doing TW. While the team may split up, a mage is a corpse just like a cleric when seperated. And needing to cast 2 spells in a row or more leaves them open to attack. The combos work together for extra dmg, such as undine and another, but expose them for longer. Meaning they need people around to give other targets. Whereas a cleric can have the archer next to him use thunder shock before a cleric uses a metal spell. Less time, roughly same effect in shorter time.

It stayed to single skill use, or preps with a skill to give a base for actual debate on the topic. So many past ones talk about how much more dmg ice dragon does over tempest. 31k over 30k doesn't mean much. Not when it gets reduced by armor, and reduced again to 25%.

Talking about high dmg in fbs will be ignored, as otherwise I would have to smack some sense into them. Out-dmging the tank's aggro, good goal that one. Only time high dmg in pve should matter is when solo grinding or AoE grinding. In which case the spark req and cooldowns prevent the mage from keeping up with clerics.

Mages will always have the highest possible spike, best DPS in a short time span, and AoE attacks between the two. Assuming demon SG boost works with Manifest at least. They also solo debuff better than clerics. Mages have many things going for them in different ways. Somehow I am unsure if it is that people are trying to take away a mage's role more than it is that people aren't paying attention to what all a mage's role can do. A mage tossing up Dragon's Breath during a retreat action at the gate in TW hidden behind the wall with a demon SG getting tossed on him with Manifest Virtue up. He might not live long, but neither will anything else in that radius

Mysticlifex - Heavens Tear wrote: »

Rundora..
Ironheart heal a set amount of health then +30% of base magic attack, FAC = more base mag attack = more heal got it?

/QUOTE/ Rundora
"I don't know anything"
I love these forums

Full mag build is a common and upon the easiest build there is as a cleric. It's not exclusive to a fac, and a fac shouldn't even have heals anyways.

this has been debated many times over. it's just not worth arguing over anymore.

demon spirit gift is not easily obtained. you have to farm for the skill book in fb99. the undine strike for wizards are also not easily obtained, you need 30 or so apocalypse pages. Most people stop levelling at the low 90's. are you still going to be playing by that time?

WOW!!! Thats a verbal whiplash right there to the face!!!