Class Nerfs?

eirghan wrote: »

I wish that wasnt a wall of text because the fact part of it was very well put.

your right, I removed all, i got off subject on what i was trying to explain, it was about a nerf, and that's the nerf. Thank you so much for the input

Alright guys someone has to say it. Mystics are OP. PWI pls take off 1500 weapon damage from mystic cards and charts and give us 300% absorb soul and 200% base nature's vengeance.

Losing 1500 weapon damage will really hurt but I will try to find some way to manage. Mystics are op and deserve this nerf.

@b3arz im glad i didnt want people to be put off reading it when you made such a good point.

I think people forget to take the whole picture in and the difference in stats is a very valid part thats easy to overlook.

csquared5 wrote: »

Some of you guys hate sins way too much. They are a somewhat too strong right now, but that doesn't mean we need to take away everything that makes a sin what they are. There is one important thing you have to remember about a sin. They are melee. Melee matters, because, yes, a sin does more dps than, say, an archer or wiz... WHEN the sin has something to hit. But a sin often has to chase a target. Running after a target means you aren't doing dmg to it. In comparison, a ranged class like an archer can keep plunk-plunking away, putting out lots of dps and really pressuring the enemy team. *Note: this does not apply in 1vs1 obviously.*

Some of you are advocating for removing tidal. Thats bull. You don't make fixes with a hacksaw, you do it with a scalpel. Adjust the % of tidal to something less. A good compromise is something nobody really likes but everybody can accept. Tidal is currently 66%. Arguably a little more than necessary. Perhaps make it 50% for sage and maybe 40% for demon. Baby steps guys, baby steps. Sins do tend to die pretty fast without tidal, so removing it altogether isn't an option.

Problem is sins are not just dps, on an even scale with other classes their dph can be nearly as high, factor in the zero channeling on many of their skills nowadays along with their ability to lock and kite, the class in 10 fold any other class in the game currently. I've experienced the APS era where sins where unstoppable and with all the recent updates since life hunter/elimination onward it feels the same way. I also upgraded my sin recently to see the new skills, I thought i was dreaming, my skill bar was half empty and the skills i had left could ghost anyone in the game in a matter of seconds. Sin is on such easy mode, emblem/chill/tidal and press 2-3 skills to destroy any class regardless of gear is a bit much. The last time sins were balanced was when r9rr came out and before primal skills arrived.

Only reason everyone is crying about sins , is they all rolled dbs and said DBS are the best and cant die everrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. the fact that sins remained relevant as top DD made ppl mad. even tho im told dbs dmg is way more broken. get over your selfs and learn to play the damn game. quit crying about tidal when i can conmplain about dbs and half a dozen broke skills they have. jesus move the **** on.

Actually you are wrong there.
Chill is one form of atk buff that other classes have too. Psy can always switch between black and white, Clerics can double skill dmg with UVD, that on crit = zerk.
Clerics have Deaden nerves and a form of BP causing dmg+heal on Elven Boon.
Even the annoying Pain have trouble with clerics and has to focus on survive.
And all mags got puri proc which saves them all the time with 100% anti-stun, better than tidal.
It all comes down to strategy.
A big example of how bad can u play even if you got the gears is Tigga. Who is full deity+12 and still try the same combo as if db couldn't possible kill without cc.

Sigh...when will people ever learn.If it was just for me I would only fight sins with my barb and storm. Max them both damage wise and would laugh at each and every sin because they cant beat me. It is not about me having trouble with sins. I have beaten sins with better gears on EACH AND EVERYONE of my chars.

Why do I wanna get a nerf for sins then? Just because I am better than most sins and can outplay them and eventually win doesnt mean that the class is OK. What the actual hell. Even if only 3 year olds would play the sin and thus anyone would disregard it simply cause no one plays it decently doesnt mean that the class is utterly broken when someone plays it that actually knows how to abuse it all.

You are all extremely biased and you dont even realize it. You act as if "oh that class barely hurts me in mass pvp while I have all buffs on etc etc" or "I never got killed by that class" and much more. Seriously? Are you guys damn serious? You know your own class. You only know situations that are so far from being equal and fair and still dare to claim an opinion on those things. So I may ask all of you...have you played any class in this game in both 1v1 and mass pvp to a level in which you are sure you know all the ins and outs of every class? Do you know every combo with which you could kill someone on any class in both 1v1 and mass pvp? Do you know the full extent of the capabilities of all classes? No? Why tf do some people even open their mouths then.

My storm isnt even close to max gear and when I am max buffed I dont get more than 2k damage from any class in the game if they don't outgear me double. Do I claim my Storm is the strongest class and that the other classes suck because they cant deal alot of damage cause I'm max buffed? Seriously!

Like @blazerboy and myself have already said. Sins are too easy. No effort is needed to kill anyone as a sin. 1 button is needed to kill people sometimes. 1 damn button. I can't understand how even the possibility of this alone doesnt ring warning bells all over the place. If the gear is even remotely equal then NO CLASS, absolutely NO FRIGGIN CLASS should be able to kill someone with 1 skill alone, no matter if it Zerkcrits, crits, zerks, doesnt matter. IT. SHOULD. NOT. BE. POSSIBLE. Are we in pre-school or why is that so hard to understand for the majority of people.

And for the ones that think my nerfs would make the sin a dead class. GG. If those nerfs are applied then:

Sins still have more DPS/DPH and general damage than Archer, more CC than Archer, more survival skills than archer and better/faster and more reliable debuffs. Heck, since I allow them to still use Focused Mind..they might still avoid some Debuffs/damge (if demon). So, even after the nerfs sins would be stronger than Archer overall including the fact that archer are a ranged class, I'm not forgetting that. Ya, sins would be so weak indeed

@b3arz Really? Thats the nerf? Good thing every Server has dozens of Sins with 2rb NP set running around. The Average is CF Set 1st rb on both cards..and thats being generous. So the difference is alot less than what you claim it to be for the majority of the playerbase. You also forgot to mention the class differences, skill differences and built differences.

1. Sins have the hardest hitting melee skills of all classes, even when base damage multipliers get turned into weapon damage.
2. Sins have by far the best Chi management of all classes, nearly allowing them to stay 3 sparked all the time, effectively doubling their damage potential.
3. Nowadays sins also have some of the fastest Skills of all classes aka are close to the top in terms of DPS even when using skills.
4. The average crit chance of all classes is 40% (cept db and archer) and usual LA crit chance is 80% further putting sins damage output above those classes that normally would have a higher base damage stat. Also, sins have Wolf Emblem, further increasing their damage output.
5. As a LA class sins can nearly go pure DEX, further increasing their base damage with a higher multiplier than HA classes, pushing their Accu and Evasion extremely high which also is a massive advantage over HA classes and AA (in terms of defense). HA classes need to sacrifice loads of base damage, stats, shards to aquire half-decent accuracy which they need to even land reliable hits on LA classes.

But sure, lets just ignore all that and think sins are nerfed enough already because they have a bit lower base damage. GG. Just GG.

I would bet 1k$ that, even after the nerfs, I'd still beat any other class in a 1v1 with an Assassin (cept Duskblades, I would win some too, but unless we get a para counter, a smart DB would be hard to beat). Easily.

As for Mass-PvP..I don't see them getting that much weaker. They still deal more damage than most classes and have loads of CC at their hands which they could use to hold off enemies or CC them to death. Sure that requires skill and would be sooooo mean to all the skill-less players but lets face it..the only difference MIGHT be that they have a hard time killing people in mass pvp alone that have the same gears (even tho thats not true). And? Where is the problem? The other classes also can hardly kill anyone alone that is fully buffed. People ride on the cooperation aspect of mass pvp so hard but having a single class that is able to kill people alone is fair and gg? Yeah, right.

I get it, I get it. People want their easy class. They badly want their unfair advantages. Sure, I dont mind. Personally, I just outplay the sins I fight even harder and still beat them even if they outgear me and then make fun of those no-skilled nubs that have all the advantages in the world and still fail. As long as they feel good and proud for occasionally one-skill killing people, all is good

And as for Seeker...the class with the single strongest single target debuff is bad in mass pvp? Really? I mean sure, when you have the average seeker brainlessly spamming random skills with which he cant even bypass def charms most of the time. Seeker is a single target AA-monster par excellence. If people just dont understand how to play their class in the most efficient way depending on how skills/gear changes then don't blame the class. The only classes you can blame for being too strong are Duskblades and Sins. Being too weak however, thats something you can solely blame on the player (or gear but we always talking equal gears so ).

@doods00 agian it's NOT a Sin vs Duskblade post be me and @jxshadow can agree even against sins who outgear us it's relatively EASY to delete garbage sins the arguements ingeneral when a no skill sin can face roll one shot almost every other non HA class with vertically no effort if you call 3rd spark cursed jail or spellcutter/condense thorn:rift work then idk what to tell you. DB can be relatively hard hitting and many survivability skills but can be easily CCed 2/3 skills sin have 3/3 which is bs and even out DD DB anyways why give them all that GGWP

kittythecat2013 wrote: »

!@ Hello guys, this is the staff here, just passing by to remember you guys that sins are Assassins, and we live to make that true as a rule.
Master Gibbs says: Everybody is thinking it, I'm just saying it.

Well, if Assassins would be Assassins by definition then show me a definition of such that allows Assassins to do anything but perform stealth kills. Nowhere is it defined that assassins could just vanish while being attacked nor that they can evade any sort of CC nor participate in direct and open hand-to-hand combat.

So sure, let sins have their damage. Catch them and they die. That is a true assassin. Now they have ultra damage and even if you attack them, they dont care. Assassin much? Sound more like a tank on steroids.

Exactly as @dregenfox said do some of you even know what a "Assassin" is all about? It's supposed to cc kill quick escape quick otherwise it's in trouble and gets gg. That's why letting them keep tidal as is doesn't make any sense even 50% is too damage high for how much DD they have. Do some of you have the idea a assassins should be able to tank a dozen ppl get their kill and run half the time they don't even need to stealth to Africa as long tidal still up... Really....

eirghan wrote: »

Other classes do have drawbacks to their version of "chill" @kittythecat2013. You mention clerics uvd (cant heal themselves) and psys black voodoo (can go into negative defense levels in the wrong gear) but what are sins drawbacks to chill? They cant aps.... With the dph meta pwe has created thats not an issue at all.

I dont agree with either side of this argument but i wouldnt call sins chill equal to other classes. Especially when you look at a seekers toolkit, we recieve a similar minded buff (defense levels) but lack the utility of tidal and deaden just like all other classes.

Before i say what i think, i will preface it with saying i dont agree with a nerf. There are other aspects of the game that is causing sins to become more broken than they should be, like the dph gear, like def charms. I also will say that while i think sins are out of balance i dont think they are "broken" at least not yet.

Back to my point, chill isnt the issue when tidal blocks both cc and debuff. That alone counters every class that doesnt depend on raw damage to kill (counters seeker, cleric, bm, veno, mystic, barb, sb, other sins and to an extent archer, db and psy) Which means we are left to classes like wizard with r9 puri being the only true counter to sin in that they dont necessarily need to spark combo you to death if they get that hard crit off. But then they have a heck of a time with defense charms. So now we have a class who can easily counter any other class just by making it impossible to use kill combos or one hit mechanics. In theory tanky targets and long range targets should be another counter to sins in the aspect of the sin not being able to kill them before tidal wears off/they run out of stunlocks, and this sometimes works at even gear level. But with the insane damage sins have, and now their ulti that lets them escape 100% of the time if they get caught out of tidal or make a mistake. its usually just a matter of time before they return to finish the job.

So the problem isnt sins themselves 100%, but rather a combination of defense charms, dph meta and their ulti that i think truly makes it so they are a challenge. The only possibly hard counter (hard pure damage) cant counter easily with defense charms, and like dbs they have been given a ton of escapes to reset the tide of battle.

In that sense i think nerfs should be discussed very carefully. A sin without his skills would be in a hard place if suddenly defense charms left and we took ulti away.

Ofc the ulti is a problem. A skill without a counter is always a problem.

However, the meta isnt the problem. If you would apply all nerfs I suggested and sins go back to aps-meta, which they easily can since r9.4 and g17 both have -0.1 interval on it, then sins would be more than fine in terms of damage output. Fully deity+ sharded r8rr gear so that they reach 4.0 basic and a fully jaded+ r9rr set to kite/tank and any half-decent sin will still wreak havoc over single targets and still live to see another day. DPH may be meta, but it is not the peak of a sins power.

Still, switching gears at least requires skill. If you remove tidal even more so. I just don't get why people think sins would be dead after those nerfs. There is enough room to adjust and still be OP IF you have the skill to do so. Talking against nerfs because 99% of the community are garbage players bares any logic in my eyes.

Thing is, aps is OP for sins atm but it's not like its oneskill-boom ur dead. No. Esp without tidal you will have plenty opportunity to counter CC, kite and so on.

Now let me get this straight, again:

1. Sins dont need Chill of the Deep to deal loads of damage.
2. Sins also dont need high Base Damage multipliers to deal loads of damage. Just look at how much damage the new Condensed Thorn deals, as an example.
3. Sins don't need Tidal, they have plenty other means for staying alive.

This is being mild. Very mild. If you ask me I would also transform every stealth skill sins have to 10 seconds maximum duration and reduce the movement speed to 0.1 m/s just as archers stealth.

I dont have a problem with pro-sins being OP. Any pro-player is OP when fighting nubs. However, giving nub players the possibility to beat pro-players with one skill alone, not even with luck, then well, that's the point where it isnt OK anymore. A nub can beat a pro with luck sometimes. That's ok. RNG can be tricky sometimes. At the state sins are in atm they dont need to rely on rng.

Again, all assuming absolutely equal gears (which would be full +12, endgame shards ofc). People assume that if a sin has a +12 weapon and only +3 armor, fighting a +8 armor caster with a +12 weapon that the sin is actually outgeared. Bruh, if you can't even survive a basic skill because the def is way too low then thats not equal gears. Equal gears is when both players can tank enough to not die oneshot from a random skill and are also able to deal enough damage to kill the enemy. Sins throw that completely out of balance. They always did.

PS: Wizard is not the best class vs sins when it comes to caster. Stormbringer are. A storm has 3x the chances of beating a sin in a 1v1 compared to a wizard. Moving + spamming skills are more effective vs sins compared to having to rely on a combo to kill them.

@jsxshadow wizard was an example of a high damage class that doesnt require a debuff or cc to kill their victims, also with a lot of movement options.

I won't argue with you on your points of view because you have already proven to the forums that you dont change your mind.
It's also quite obvious that to you, any seeker that thinks their class isn't one of the best is clearly just a bad seeker, so you shouldn't take my opinion so seriously.​​

jsxshadow wrote: »

Thing is..to be a great seeker you need to be a great player and not many seekerplayer are that. Quite the opposite.

jsxshadow wrote: »

I also dont think most seeker are particularly bad players.

You think I'm bad at 1v1s based off of a single video in which I was outgeared and in a tournament which is very different from regular 1v1s. I also explained this to you already and you clearly didnt listen.

You also contradict yourself.

This is why people have started to ignore your threads.​​

@jsxshadow you gotta work on your ppl skills man xD I hardly have any and even I don't come off as aggressive GGWP also if the seeker is who I think you're talking about then by definition all a seeker to you is worth in mass is AA then SS slash,transposition ppl in middle of squads,Ion spike soak damage rinse repeat lmfao....

jsxshadow wrote: »

Sigh...when will people ever learn.If it was just for me I would only fight sins with my barb and storm. Max them both damage wise and would laugh at each and every sin because they cant beat me. It is not about me having trouble with sins. I have beaten sins with better gears on EACH AND EVERYONE of my chars.

Why do I wanna get a nerf for sins then? Just because I am better than most sins and can outplay them and eventually win doesnt mean that the class is OK. What the actual hell. Even if only 3 year olds would play the sin and thus anyone would disregard it simply cause no one plays it decently doesnt mean that the class is utterly broken when someone plays it that actually knows how to abuse it all.

You are all extremely biased and you dont even realize it. You act as if "oh that class barely hurts me in mass pvp while I have all buffs on etc etc" or "I never got killed by that class" and much more. Seriously? Are you guys damn serious? You know your own class. You only know situations that are so far from being equal and fair and still dare to claim an opinion on those things. So I may ask all of you...have you played any class in this game in both 1v1 and mass pvp to a level in which you are sure you know all the ins and outs of every class? Do you know every combo with which you could kill someone on any class in both 1v1 and mass pvp? Do you know the full extent of the capabilities of all classes? No? Why tf do some people even open their mouths then.

My storm isnt even close to max gear and when I am max buffed I dont get more than 2k damage from any class in the game if they don't outgear me double. Do I claim my Storm is the strongest class and that the other classes suck because they cant deal alot of damage cause I'm max buffed? Seriously!

Like @blazerboy and myself have already said. Sins are too easy. No effort is needed to kill anyone as a sin. 1 button is needed to kill people sometimes. 1 damn button. I can't understand how even the possibility of this alone doesnt ring warning bells all over the place. If the gear is even remotely equal then NO CLASS, absolutely NO FRIGGIN CLASS should be able to kill someone with 1 skill alone, no matter if it Zerkcrits, crits, zerks, doesnt matter. IT. SHOULD. NOT. BE. POSSIBLE. Are we in pre-school or why is that so hard to understand for the majority of people.

And for the ones that think my nerfs would make the sin a dead class. GG. If those nerfs are applied then:

Sins still have more DPS/DPH and general damage than Archer, more CC than Archer, more survival skills than archer and better/faster and more reliable debuffs. Heck, since I allow them to still use Focused Mind..they might still avoid some Debuffs/damge (if demon). So, even after the nerfs sins would be stronger than Archer overall including the fact that archer are a ranged class, I'm not forgetting that. Ya, sins would be so weak indeed

@b3arz Really? Thats the nerf? Good thing every Server has dozens of Sins with 2rb NP set running around. The Average is CF Set 1st rb on both cards..and thats being generous. So the difference is alot less than what you claim it to be for the majority of the playerbase. You also forgot to mention the class differences, skill differences and built differences.

1. Sins have the hardest hitting melee skills of all classes, even when base damage multipliers get turned into weapon damage.
2. Sins have by far the best Chi management of all classes, nearly allowing them to stay 3 sparked all the time, effectively doubling their damage potential.
3. Nowadays sins also have some of the fastest Skills of all classes aka are close to the top in terms of DPS even when using skills.
4. The average crit chance of all classes is 40% (cept db and archer) and usual LA crit chance is 80% further putting sins damage output above those classes that normally would have a higher base damage stat. Also, sins have Wolf Emblem, further increasing their damage output.
5. As a LA class sins can nearly go pure DEX, further increasing their base damage with a higher multiplier than HA classes, pushing their Accu and Evasion extremely high which also is a massive advantage over HA classes and AA (in terms of defense). HA classes need to sacrifice loads of base damage, stats, shards to aquire half-decent accuracy which they need to even land reliable hits on LA classes.

But sure, lets just ignore all that and think sins are nerfed enough already because they have a bit lower base damage. GG. Just GG.

I would bet 1k$ that, even after the nerfs, I'd still beat any other class in a 1v1 with an Assassin (cept Duskblades, I would win some too, but unless we get a para counter, a smart DB would be hard to beat). Easily.

As for Mass-PvP..I don't see them getting that much weaker. They still deal more damage than most classes and have loads of CC at their hands which they could use to hold off enemies or CC them to death. Sure that requires skill and would be sooooo mean to all the skill-less players but lets face it..the only difference MIGHT be that they have a hard time killing people in mass pvp alone that have the same gears (even tho thats not true). And? Where is the problem? The other classes also can hardly kill anyone alone that is fully buffed. People ride on the cooperation aspect of mass pvp so hard but having a single class that is able to kill people alone is fair and gg? Yeah, right.

I get it, I get it. People want their easy class. They badly want their unfair advantages. Sure, I dont mind. Personally, I just outplay the sins I fight even harder and still beat them even if they outgear me and then make fun of those no-skilled nubs that have all the advantages in the world and still fail. As long as they feel good and proud for occasionally one-skill killing people, all is good

And as for Seeker...the class with the single strongest single target debuff is bad in mass pvp? Really? I mean sure, when you have the average seeker brainlessly spamming random skills with which he cant even bypass def charms most of the time. Seeker is a single target AA-monster par excellence. If people just dont understand how to play their class in the most efficient way depending on how skills/gear changes then don't blame the class. The only classes you can blame for being too strong are Duskblades and Sins. Being too weak however, thats something you can solely blame on the player (or gear but we always talking equal gears so ).

i know like 5 sins easy with 2x RA Warsong/EU set, which is still 1,512 Physical attack for all classes and sins get 1,134 so that's 378 less Physical attack there too. It all adds up. We do everything to focus are damage, So lets see now we talk about how far us sins have geared are self to maybe 1 shot you? We run around with like 45k Physical attack self buffed? with nerfs that equal more then 20k Physical attack on are stats? which might even be higher then that truthfully. So without that nerf we be running around with 65k vs your guys 50k Physical attack without strength of titans for the barbs and maybe BMs. Archers dmg isn't even going to be concidered cus everyone knows they've been weak since GoF became a primary attribute on Physical class weapon. but hey some people want 40 attack levels gone? Sure why not, make Assassins have the same benefit that all the other classes get on Physical attack, remove that nerf, and you can take your lowsy 40 attack levels away? You really think that 40 Attack is going to do anything to us sins when we invested in damage and attack to hit this? we run around with 288 Attack levels with Chill of the deep on anyways, still would leave us at 248 attack levels. Assassins choose to build pure dmg builds to reach this level of damage. It don't just happen with +10 vit stones and a 10.0 chart, with crappy cards not even RA. 95% of the time im sure the Assassins have more invested into damage then you do, if your dying to a sin without majority of there damage stuff maxed out, then idk why your calling the Sin unskilled, it should be you who is the unskilled one, but you don't want to look in the mirror, you just want to blame it on a class. Also, Please do tell about this Tidal? any real Assassin knows that it might say 66% on tidal, but it's not 2/3. I've had tidal fail more then I can count, so people that say this Tidal is reason sins aren't getting debuffed and stunned dont know what they talking about. Maybe it's you the player? you See Tidal, and you hesitate to use ur stun lock? or you save all your skills for 60 seconds, thinking the sin is 100% immune or something, and by the time tidal runs out, any skilled sins knows that is the time they play defensive and make sure they don't get locked, so it feels like there unstopable. you got barbs and BMs hitting 31k+ phy def self buffed sins for 20k-25k crit zerk and the barbs are crappy gear, yea +12 weapon, crappy card set, 12.0 chart ? but lets not talk about TANK classes, hitting 25k crit zerk cus its forbidden. Or the fact that being able to have more crit then LA classes on a barb? a Spamable paralyze, 20 sec invoke of 90% reduced dmg? and still be able to crit zerk non stop because of there onslaught? barb also has solid shield, on 100 str genie for 60% reduce dmg? a deaden nerv just like Assassin? Accuracy buff so they can literally go 60 dex which is 45 more stat point into there primary dmg boost then assassin? and all sorts of never missing skills, but once again it's always talk about Assassin being nerfed? I know im 500+ spirit on most players and yet if i turn off def charms and let someone hit me, most AA classes will do like 15k-20k crit easily. Your an AA class, omg you've been hit for 30k by crit zerk? but u can turn around and hit 20k 20k on a sin like its nothing, but only reason that doesn't happen is because the time it takes to channel a skill vs time it takes for ur def charm to come up. so we just living off def charms, since 1 def charm acts as 2 hits. By having Charms last 2 hits, and 15 second cooldown on charm, CC classes got extremely strong, JOSD Blademasters want to talk about needing more Damage? then sacrifice your defence for Deity if you want to die when you get locked, spam your paralyze hf every 30 seconds, you get 300 chi every 18 seconds with your sword skills, got a Disable weapon / stun that remove DEF weapon + Purify Proc weapon, use this to ur advantage, got a 7.5 second paralyze with 15 second cooldown? and you want to QQ about a 6 second paralyze with 30 second cooldown? Your skill even cost 1 less spark which you make faster chi then sins do now with your sword skills, USE THEM? your leap?! they only cost 10 chi each, and 100% focused mind and tidal? and can leap out of any situation? What can a Sin do? they get immobolized and they leap they air glitched? spend more time kiting an Assassin if your scared about Assassins tidal, it not hard to get away from them, This game is so off balanced with Damage, it just not assassins, when you see an Assassin do 30k damage your like oh well thats normal, sins always 1 shotting me? well compare your gear to that assassin? see how much more he has invested in damage then you do? AA hits 30ks all day, you here all the time on wc AA hitting 30k dmg to AA classes.. which means idk what the **** ur dmg be like on my Assassin, 50k+? got Seeker combo that can hit 100k+ on full JOSD 60k mdef.. with full combo, its not just Assassin that does alot of damage, but it seems like Assassin is easier to QQ about, cus it's there. it takes no skill to play a Sin, you'll hear that the most, but then how much skill do you have to have to play your toons? how many skills do you actually use, count them.. because assassin uses more then 1 skill.. in our stun lock we use Cursed jail, Throatcut, Deep Sting, seems like BM uses Roar, Paralyze and Smack? hmm. interesting? 3 Skills vs 3 skills in our stuns.. so if BM is skilled are stun locked must be just as skilled? Are damage skills.. Spell Cutter, Earthen rift, Condenced thorn, rising dragon strike, elimination, life hunter? 6 skills, which is more damage skills then a BM uses? probably more damage skills then most classes use, then are Subsea be like there HF? but difference is theres is 2x more of a debuff then are, and they don't get no nerfs on physical attack and has way more physical attack on weapon then we do. we can't just throatcut for are stun, we gotta use tacklin slash and how easy that sounds, thats still something? can't be not skilled, cus a not skilled sin wouldnt immobolize before silencing? so what exactly is Skill? Because if you think a BM, that can paralyze for 1.5 sec longer then Sin for half the chi cost,ours is 6 sec paralyze? and do a disable weapon + stun for even less chi.. i don't know what you guys mean clearly. You clearly must not be playing your class right then. if you have what us sins have invested in our damage, and cant 1 shot a LA class, then idk what your doing wrong. Because most classes have been balanced out, some still need serious work, but there really isnt no reason to be QQing about BM,Barb,Sin,DB in the Physical class group, you have God of Frenzy, damage is already stupid. even AA classes like Wizzie has spark combo to 1 shot, SB gots like 200% ele debuff for 1 shot, seeker got ss combo to hit 100k, they just need a harder locking CC and not so much luck on it. These posts just make me laugh tbh. You guys can continue QQing about sins, but its just not sins doing this kind of damage, we take just as much as we deal from every class. and while you talk about a sin being stealthed? well, if he is stealthed, then Kite? don't stand there like an idiot. only time sins does alot of damage is when they do subsea + tangle mire or triple spark? and if you try to tank that, u really don't know how to PK then. BM HF on you, and he going to do alot harder hit then us.