Class Nerfs?

blazerboy

@eirghan the only one who though sin ulti works in pvp was @mooglemonger and you can even see it without exact same geared people. You can see it in skill descriptions likewise. Me and a buddy a Jsod sin both damage tested the same person in 3rd spark hits while I had 16 deity and he had 16 jades with him having ws set and me CF set with my cards more rebirths. But he consistently hit a lot harder on the bm than I did. It may not seem bulletproof 100% correct but this is where I started really believing it. Then seeing how much more damage vit stone sin would hit me over a deity dusk with same cardset only furthered increased my suspicion.

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dregenfox

Well they are both strong...just different types of strong. Why should DB be able to match sin damage when they have so many more cc tools? Sin can get easy triple sparked zerk crits sure, but their damage is easy to avoid and there are clear and obvious ways to counter or mitigate their damage.

DB damage is lower but they're difficult to counter and impossible to kite.

Just imo I'd rather duel a +12 deity maxed sin over a +12 deity db. I could win vs the sin but db would be pretty one-sided in db's favor.

eirghan

3 times more damage?

I see the skill descriptions. Just because a sin skill says 600% and a db skill says 200% does not mean a sin hits 3x as hard. Do you guys see the difference in base attack and weapon attack? In cards and star charts?

I am not saying sins dont hit hard, im not even saying sins cant hit harder than dbs. Im saying equal gear on the same target, sins dont hit 3x as hard as a db.

Anyway we can argue until the cows come home without any proof or data. @aradya6793 is right. Maybe all of the sins on my server suck. Well, maybe all of the dbs on my server are better than yours. We dont know. Its pointless. I just saw someone throw out numbers and thought that it didn't match my experience. So yeah id love to see the damage tests that show dbs hit 1/3 as hard as sins.

dregenfox

eirghan wrote: »

3 times more damage?

I see the skill descriptions. Just because a sin skill says 600% and a db skill says 200% does not mean a sin hits 3x as hard. Do you guys see the difference in base attack and weapon attack? In cards and star charts?

I am not saying sins dont hit hard, im not even saying sins cant hit harder than dbs. Im saying equal gear on the same target, sins dont hit 3x as hard as a db.

Anyway we can argue until the cows come home without any proof or data. @aradya6793 is right. Maybe all of the sins on my server suck. Well, maybe all of the dbs on my server are better than yours. We dont know. Its pointless. I just saw someone throw out numbers and thought that it didn't match my experience. So yeah id love to see the damage tests that show dbs hit 1/3 as hard as sins.

I'd definitely say my experience matches yours. I go over damage logs after every pvp and sin damage is higher but not that much higher, and imo if you account for the fact that sins are often triple sparked then the logs pan out. Sins scale better with a triple sparked, elimination zerk crit but that's just the nature of >100% base damage type attacks.

blazerboy

That's what I'm talking about though most sin skills based on base phy atk while db weapon damage he'll even without spark skills like cursed jail spellcutter condense thorn will out DD most Duskblade skills outside of quadrature.

dingo488

eirghan wrote: »

I hope that's not directed to troll me cuz i regret to inform you you're about a year too late xD who knows tho maybe others will come out of the woodworks

It wasnt, no one does damage anymore. People celebrating hitting 10k dmg on people with 50k+ hp... Think they went a little overboard trying to change the meta with all these primal passives, their refusal to just directly buff/nerf classes occasionally kinda turned the game into a tankfiesta.

Which I would normally welcome open-handed, if it wasnt for the existance of hp charms.

blazerboy

@eirghan try and find time to record next time then

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jsxshadow

aradya6793 wrote: »

dingo488 wrote: »

eirghan wrote: »

I hope that's not directed to troll me cuz i regret to inform you you're about a year too late xD who knows tho maybe others will come out of the woodworks

It wasnt, no one does damage anymore. People celebrating hitting 10k dmg on people with 50k+ hp... Think they went a little overboard trying to change the meta with all these primal passives, their refusal to just directly buff/nerf classes occasionally kinda turned the game into a tankfiesta.

Which I would normally welcome open-handed, if it wasnt for the existance of hp charms.

^this
primal passives [REMOVED] up the game,
they thought increasing resistance cap plus increasing base damage values would've balanced out primal passive
wrong
they just **** up all debuff-based classes
and if that wasn't enough, double tick defense charms
imo the second ones are the real cancer that lead to the tankfiesta meta the game is now
i mean i play a ranged class i try to hit a db, my damage is reduced by 67% passive and then by 67% more charms, i am like i can have S+ set and GM weapon but i will still hit nothing on a db with def charms

@eirghan db has no skills that scale with 3spark, db apart from ns mm combo and the 50% temp crit damage increase have no base damage multipliers, db has no 500% weapon damage skills either
yea but db has 10% more base damage coming from raw weapon damage and cards... 10% lol that's overwhelmed already by just cotd or wolf emblem or subsea strike or the countless 500% skills

besides the fact that clever sins [REMOVED] sparks, always making their base damage higher than a db when it situationally matters

check test mob damage values,
now take your best db hit and \3 and you get what a db hits in pvp,
now take your best sin hit and that's what a sin hits in pvp

No, adding defense passives was the best they could've done, especially with the skills we got now. If they would've done that then a Duskblade could Oneshot a human form, selfbuffed Barb and a seeker as well just with Arc + mire debuffs. A barb would simply need to use devour + mire to oneshot any non-pdef selfbuff class with massive numbers. Storms would just need perigean tide to OS anything that doesnt have cleric buffs/wine with any follow-up random skill. Who would be on the low-receiving end? Wizards. Since Soul of fire.

Why are we still arguing DBs damage? Especially in relation to sins.. Duskblades =/= Assassins. Why do you even compare them? It is justified that DBs have lower damage than Sins since they can CC alot more BUT you all seem to forget that Duskblades Damage-Potential is ALOT higher. I can hit better geared Duskblades for 60k+ if my Quadrature Combo lands a zerkcrit on someones selfbuffs. That procedure takes 2 seconds. 60k+ Damage in 2 seconds and you complain about damage? the moment you fight someone with a dusk and apply Arc+ mire + EP ANY dusk on any buff level Out-DDs an equally geared sin. Sure, it takes a bit more effort but what the hell.

A masterly Duskblade can leave any other class chanceless while a dumb sin might be able to kill some but nevercan a dumb sin kill anyone with ease, especially Caster-classes that know what they are doing. If a sin has enough damage to 2 spark stealth-kill you with Cursed Jail then its GG. Just use all the buffs in the game and you are good. No sin can kill a max buffed class with equal gears with just Cursed Jail. Never. Seeing that you all dont care about 1v1s...just use buffs. the majority of those braindead sins will be buffed to the max when they attack you anyways xD In a 1v1 you can easily control a Sins damage if you know the class well. Not saying that Sins are easy in 1v1..oh no its quite the opposite..but dumb sins are easy. Sins that can only OS from stealth are easy in 1v1. A great sin is something you will hardly beat in a 1v1 on equal gears. We are not talking about great sins tho. Most sins can't do nothing if they can't surprise-kill you.

Still, tidal and CotD need to be removed. Not for the dumb sins but for the real good ones. Why? Because they know how to abuse it and can simply dispose of everyone. We could demand the same for Seeker that could pretty much do the same with Sacrificial Slash. However, finding a good seeker is even harder than finding a good Assassin. When people learn all tricks and shanenigans they can perform with a class then they become very dangerous and powerful. With any class. However, there are certain skill sets of some classes (mainly DB, Sin and Barbs) which make them alot more powerful. Not because they deal too much damage in some cases. Also not because they CC you too hard or only because they have a massive set of survival skills. No, its the combination of the 3 that makes those classes ridiculous. Those 3 classes have unique skills with pretty low Cooldowns with which they can keep themselves alive without having to use Apo/Genie in most cases while you've already had to blow them out to stay alive. Now if they catch you (and they still have genie/apo ready) you will get down unless you are very lucky.

Most people don't pay attention to strategy. They don't pay attention to the max capabilities of a class in each possible scenario...even tho it's so obvious. try outplaying someone that has double the skills to stay alive AND has nearly always an instant Counter-CC ready to pressure/stop you. You mostly can't counter CC an Assassin which makes fighting one very hard if you have to depend on counter-CC. Granted, if they remove tidal from the game than Sins will have 0 chance to beat a Duskblade in a 1v1, heck mostly not even on full buffs. However, that doesnt matter to me personally because sins won't have it worse than any other class then and Focused mind is perfectly balanced vs any other class. So yeah. Remove tidal, CotD or nerf the skill damage for sins AND finally add a paralyze counter to the game. All balanced. All Happy. All done. Easy GG.​​

csquared5

Hmm some more thoughts.

I should still say, of all classes, dbs and sins give me the most trouble in 1vs1 and group situations. When I'm saying 'dbs are mroe scary for me' I'm not saying that I don't find sins scary, just that I find dbs scarier. For non-arcane classes, I can definitely understand that their experience may be different in which class they find scarier.

My previous main before my cleric was an assassin. Even as I played it, I always said 'tidal % is too high'. I said this as a demon assassin. The only fix assassins needs is to tweak the tidal % to be lower. Then balance would be restored to this class I believe. 33% is a bit low, but I think 50% would be a good start.

blazerboy

@csquared5 for me I think 40% is fine db get like 25-30% and it's considered "decent" by debts pretty sure they can survive off 40% aswell then xD. For me a well timed faith or AD only null and voids a db for me but sin at time I could get 1-2 hit charm bypass before I feel its a good time to AD

jsxshadow

csquared5 wrote: »

Hmm some more thoughts.

I should still say, of all classes, dbs and sins give me the most trouble in 1vs1 and group situations. When I'm saying 'dbs are mroe scary for me' I'm not saying that I don't find sins scary, just that I find dbs scarier. For non-arcane classes, I can definitely understand that their experience may be different in which class they find scarier.

My previous main before my cleric was an assassin. Even as I played it, I always said 'tidal % is too high'. I said this as a demon assassin. The only fix assassins needs is to tweak the tidal % to be lower. Then balance would be restored to this class I believe. 33% is a bit low, but I think 50% would be a good start.

Nah 50% is still too much imho. They don't need tidal at all cept for 1v1ing Duskblades. Thats pretty much the only situation in which sins could need tidal. Demon Focused Mind has a little tidal as well, that is where it should be at.

Sins don't need Tidal at all because even without tidal they are not the worst in terms of CC, immunity, Survival-Stuff. Quite the opposite tbh. They still have way too many stealth skills, mazen, deaden, massive amount of fast counter CC, ports. The only downside would be that fighting a DB would be harder..but it is not easier for other caster classes or Archer as well..so that shouldnt count at all. The point is..even without tidal, sins wouldnt be the worst class in any scenario imaginable which is why they don't need it and should lose it.

As a caster I'd rather fight a sin than a Duskblade any day of the week (assuming both are equally good. Cause if its a bad Duskblade I rather fight him in terms of winning-probability) simply because you can get Sins if you know the class and if you can outplay them. remember...I said CAN. Doesnt mean you'll always win (cept if ur a stormbringer with enough damage, losing to a sin like that is nearly impossible), Fighting a good DB as a caster...well you will lose 99% of the time and if you manage to win then its due to yourself being very tanky/the db having non-maxed damage.

I mean, lets be honest...All a DB needs to do vs a caster is bait genie. Sleep + Stun in Dragontrap (you will have to activate genie else you die right there from the para lock that follows most likely), if the enemy uses Expel, you reset ur skills, sleep..charge disarm to when expel is done -> Quad combo and the fight is over. Same with AD, Faith, Fortify. Even if someone Faith/AD + IG's just use umbral stalker or do the same. As DBs CC is nearly instant...you can never hit the DB before he hits you. A DB losing to a caster cannot happen on selfbuffs. Never. That's just impossible (if the DB also uses his ulti which I dont because its unfair as f...obviously ).

Like I said. We only need a counter to Paralyze and tidal can go away without even giving sins a reason to cry. Ah and DBs ulti needs to be stripped off the CD reset effect pretty please.

eirghan

@dingo488 yeah i would agree. Especially looking at what a waste of time it is to get an increased crit passive and then a crit reduction passive. Its like the devs are just trying to come up with arbitrary bull to keep us busy

But then i think everything primal was kind of a **** show.

blazerboy

@eirghan ever since charm reduction passive I believe pwi devs are really running out of ideas to be creative

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dingo488

Its ok, Ill help the devs out. New primal passives can reduce the duration of all crowd control abilities by 5% per level ^-^ Actually encourages some form of interaction between dueling parties instead of having 2 groups of supertanks stunlocked into oblivion until everyone dies of old age.

What Joe says is true too, but only relevant in 1v1s, cuz in mass PvP it requires a level of coordinated teamplay which should be rewarded. 1v1s dont require any level of anything so ye, giving people such a big reward for facerolling their keyboard wouldnt really be fair, but the devs said they focus on large scale PvP so they shudve completely disregarded the 1v1 clownfiesta

dregenfox

aradya wrote: »

aradya6793 wrote: »

csquared5 wrote: »

Hmm some more thoughts.

I should still say, of all classes, dbs and sins give me the most trouble in 1vs1 and group situations. When I'm saying 'dbs are mroe scary for me' I'm not saying that I don't find sins scary, just that I find dbs scarier. For non-arcane classes, I can definitely understand that their experience may be different in which class they find scarier.

My previous main before my cleric was an assassin. Even as I played it, I always said 'tidal % is too high'. I said this as a demon assassin. The only fix assassins needs is to tweak the tidal % to be lower. Then balance would be restored to this class I believe. 33% is a bit low, but I think 50% would be a good start.

don't worry next patch give sins like what 8 seconds paralyze? you will stand still and consequently eat a 7,4x base damage elimination (after u just ate a 2x base damage cursed tho, cause yea 2x base and paralyze)

#balanse​​

I suppose it would depend on how quickly the sin can gather combo points. You can't paralyze AND opt for increased damage, gotta choose one or the other.

I'm hoping the mystic anti-cc skills will heal paralyze/purge, regular antistun and purify just doesn't cut it anymore. PWI has really gone overboard with paralyze when it was supposed to be a rare, strategically used form of uber-cc.

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dregenfox

aradya6793 wrote: »

you can. max level rune cursed is 3x base damage added and i believe 8 secs paralize

you just land it cancel and elimination ^^​​

Hmm, 8 sec paralyze + 7.2x elim right after does sound like it'll be broken, I'll have to look into those particular sin upgrades. That would be pretty hard to survive even with buffs.

blazerboy

I love how CN entertains this bull sins have...

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jsxshadow

dingo488 wrote: »

Its ok, Ill help the devs out. New primal passives can reduce the duration of all crowd control abilities by 5% per level ^-^ Actually encourages some form of interaction between dueling parties instead of having 2 groups of supertanks stunlocked into oblivion until everyone dies of old age.

What Joe says is true too, but only relevant in 1v1s, cuz in mass PvP it requires a level of coordinated teamplay which should be rewarded. 1v1s dont require any level of anything so ye, giving people such a big reward for facerolling their keyboard wouldnt really be fair, but the devs said they focus on large scale PvP so they shudve completely disregarded the 1v1 clownfiesta

Oh, not only in 1v1 You can kill people just as fast in mass pvp with a duskblade if you have someone to purge them for you Same goes for sins. Again Tidal and such is nasty in 1v1 but its absolutely broken in Mass-PvP.

they are not balancing this game for anything. They are further breaking the game BUT if they would take out duskblades and sins completely then yeah, we would have a balanced game post runes without g17 weapons or offensive ones only.

Duskblades and Sins need fixes/counters. Not for 1v1, but for mass pvp.

1v1 is no clownfiesta. Mass-PvP is. When is there ever decent mass pvp? Never. Numbers, gears...that what its about all the god damn time. If that is not a clownfiesta..I dont know what is. Bring a pvp arena with balanced/equal geared 2v2-10v10 and then we are talking about mass pvp. The current mechanics (open world mass pvp, tw, xtw, nw) are utter garbage and far from being balanced or have the requirement of any skill at all. Individual skill is what matters. ofc if you put alot of skilled people together you will have the advantage. Good luck finding that or gl having the time to actually train people to work like they should. Nah, way too much work.

1v1 is purely about knowledge. You don't know your class and the one ur fighting against but your enemy does? Well, chances are you're going to lose. Also, you have to be able to read your opponent. Claiming that 1v1s are always a clowfiesta and absolutely pointless is narrow minded. It's the same as calling any competitive 1v1 sport the same because they practically are. Boxing, Martial Arts, Chess, Card Games...its all the same. All with their imbalances and whatnot. What's the key to win there? Yeah, knowledge (and some physical capabilities that you also master through knowledge of your body/nutrition). I don't hear anyone calling those sports/games a clownfiesta

Not saying mass pvp is bad or that you wouldn't need skill in some situation. You do, alot at that. But bad teammates can **** you up so hard that I usually don't even bother, knowing I get 0 support anyways when seeing people doing absolutely senseless, random stuff (like people spam-DDing on caster alone, triggering purify spell while they dont even deal 1k's per hit...stuff like that is...+sigh+). Sometimes it works and its cool and all..but then I think about..did we manage that now because we got better geared or more people? and if that is a yes then all those accomplishments mean nothing. Only rarely do we overcome (or even have the chance to fight against) people that have an advantage over us. If a victory isnt earned then it is no victory at all..in a game like this that pretty much means "sry bro, mass pvp is not for you, go play some other game for it" and yeah, thats pretty much it.

1v1 is the best. If people call it easy..why do they get rekt then, most of the time? Why don't they have knowledge? Why can't they read their enemies? IF you ask me..those abilities are FAR more useful even for real life compared to reaction time or other things like that. Knowledge is Power. ALWAYS.

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jsxshadow

aradya6793 wrote: »

1v1 is the best,
inb4 sins straight 1hit you from ulti-stealth, which gives you no damage log, with new elimination​​

Yeah, unfortunatly there is some imbalance. However, thats just sins and DBs max. The rest of the classes is pretty much fine after the next update. Tidal/Cotd removed, changing base damage to weapon damage for sins skills (all of them) and introducing a anti-paralyze genie skill and the whole friggin game is perfectly balanced for 1v1. Still broken af due to g17.5 def lvl weapons..but meh

blazerboy

Honestly once a db is stunlocked to no end he's pretty much mince meat once genie is baited. It might sound difficult but it really isn't. But if people feel paralyze is too hard to counter via genie by all means make a paralyze counter but ATLEAST lower sin damage to ATLEAST weapon damage. They will still be fine due to all the sparking and the damage will atleast go down marginally

eirghan

Dont lose your **** before we know how to get the runes. For all we know its going to be like getting astral 10 chart costing millions Usd and or taking over a life time of grind.

elcopete94

Yeah stunlock a db is so easy

dregenfox

aradya6793 wrote: »

dregenfox wrote: »

aradya6793 wrote: »

you can. max level rune cursed is 3x base damage added and i believe 8 secs paralize

you just land it cancel and elimination ^^

Hmm, 8 sec paralyze + 7.2x elim right after does sound like it'll be broken, I'll have to look into those particular sin upgrades. That would be pretty hard to survive even with buffs.

current elimination is 80% 60% 60% 120%, 4 ticks in 2.7 seconds for a total of 3,2x base

next elimination will be 180% 140% 140% 280% in 2.7 for a total of 7,4x base
while you are paralized = no def charms

i am quite sure apart from HAs, you are lucky enough if you aren't killed by the very first tick, figure the fourth one xD

for comparison a wizard needs 2sparks and 4 seconds to land a 2x base damage hit (blade tempest)

this is like receiveing 4 blade tempests in 2 seconds
and with all the damage multipliers sins have, zerkcrits atk lvls wolf emblem cotd subsea 3sparks...

bah i am getting discouraged to continue to play, also because despite TNF it's weeks that i am literaly unable to purchase any g17 mat which relegates the class i am playing to the obsolete and completely off meta​​

Hmm where are you getting the damage info for elimination? I'm looking at asterelle's paste bin and it says base is 3.2x, you'd need 6 combo points for 7.2x elimination and 8 combo points for 8s paralyze on cursed jail.

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