New update PvP discussion

Zoldi - Morai

jspwione wrote: »

We're not talking about killing you in a really easy way so I don't know why you're making this claim, it's just pure game mechanics, not even +12 refines defensively can be immune to death to any other class with +12 weapon. Don't need high IQ to figure that out.

Actually I guess it will depend on cards, but honestly by experience I myself don't really see how a wizard is supposed to kill a+12 mystic in 1v1 with same gears or even slightly better gears. If the +12 mystic is full buffed with endgame ornaments, the wizzard will struggle to deal good damage and he won't be able to control the mystic enough to prevent the mystic healing himself.

Besides, mystics have better survivability than clerics and psychics.

Joe - Morai

It is nearly impossible killing an endgame mystic that plays defensively on buffs. Heck, every 1on1 fully buffed at endgame is senseless. No ones gonna kill anyone with maxed buffs alone. This does not always apply to SoD buffs but it does still with caster vs caster.

Note: mystics can survive nearly anything that doesnt 1shot them but. While they are healing themselves they can obviously deal 0 dmg to you as well...so xD

On self buffs it is very well possible to kill any class in question with any other class. Debuffs just hit so much better on selfbuffed targets.

jspwione

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

Actually I guess it will depend on cards, but honestly by experience I myself don't really see how a wizard is supposed to kill a+12 mystic in 1v1 with same gears or even slightly better gears. If the +12 mystic is full buffed with endgame ornaments, the wizzard will struggle to deal good damage and he won't be able to control the mystic enough to prevent the mystic healing himself.

Besides, mystics have better survivability than clerics and psychics.

Is that's why the best K/D ratio a mystic from a PVP server can get is 3.0? Harshland's one is 1.7.

Clerics and psychics have better survivability than mystics in most situations, maybe not by a wide margin but there's no way a mystic can survive better even if we're talking about certain scenarios which are mostly are irrelevant or rarely take place, a cleric can do just as well. We can even ignore a couple of healing skills of a cleric and they will still survive better than a mystic in most situations.

Then take a look at actual fights, experiences, opinions of experts and look at K/D and compare popularity of classes. No way a mystic survives better than a cleric.

For reference, mystics.
http://pwi.fr.perfectworld.eu/ranking?ranking=kill_death_ratio&class=Mystic&server=Lost+City

clerics
http://pwi.fr.perfectworld.eu/ranking?ranking=kill_death_ratio&class=Cleric&server=Lost+City

Joe - Morai wrote: »

It is nearly impossible killing an endgame mystic that plays defensively on buffs. Heck, every 1on1 fully buffed at endgame is senseless. No ones gonna kill anyone with maxed buffs alone. This does not always apply to SoD buffs but it does still with caster vs caster.

Note: mystics can survive nearly anything that doesnt 1shot them but. While they are healing themselves they can obviously deal 0 dmg to you as well...so xD

On self buffs it is very well possible to kill any class in question with any other class. Debuffs just hit so much better on selfbuffed targets.

Read what people are actually saying. This guy is claming a non-deity wizard NEVER killed him in general. He is +10 defensively with exclusive citrine. That's straight up nonsense. So whatever you've said doesn't actually have anything to do with the subject. We're not talking about 1v1 full buffs etc. which everyone shouldn't be wasting their time on because it's pointless. And at real endgame, every class can bloody 'turtle', 'kite', tank, run, use abilities and not die in a 1v1 scenario, whether fully buffed or not.

Zoldi - Morai

K/D ? For real ?
It has always been biased. It depends if you play in a big faction or not and face bigger or smaller factions in TW. If you are often ganked or rather gank people. It also depends if you OS a lot of low geared people or fight a lot of R9.3 squads in NW.
Besides mystics were a more recent class and they had hard times at first in PVP.
And rankings haven't been updated in what ? 1 year ?
I myself have a ratio of 6 while being in the top 50/60 in number of kills whole server, so it was relevant enough to claim I know what I'm talking about I guess. This was pre new horizon and since NH my ratio would easily be 10 or 15 since I die in average 2 or 3 times in NW (max probably is 5 or 6 in 2015 and I often finish with 0 or 1 death). But this means nohing at all because if I'm getting ganked on a map I don't insist. So K/D means nothing at all... People that refers to K/D to say if someone has good survivability or not are surprising...

jspwione wrote: »

Clerics and psychics have better survivability than mystics in most situations, maybe not by a wide margin but there's no way a mystic can survive better even if we're talking about certain scenarios which are mostly are irrelevant or rarely take place, a cleric can do just as well. We can even ignore a couple of healing skills of a cleric and they will still survive better than a mystic in most situations.

In which situations exactly ? Basically mystics have better phy res and mag res than psychics/clerics due to their autobuff. Clerics buffs are good but spirit of defence can grant the same buffs. And mystics can leech pets to increase defense even more or use natural barrier.
Psychics can have more defense levels but they can't spam heal themselves (and anyway a wizard will probably struggle a lot trying to kill a buffed psychic in defensive mode, even if I don't have the same experience as with a mystic)

XXHotXx - Morai

mystics were a useless class till NH, they couldnt heal enough, they couldn't DD enough, mystics struggled a real lot till the last year

after NH patch -> huge base damage -> huge DPS -> crazy healing potential

mystics if played well are deadly and are unkillable, the demon spark rapid growth nv as sd nv as combo can shot down really anyone in the lapse of few seconds

and i think it has already been said that wizard nowadays struggles to deliver damage to any class,

hell the other day i firecombod an archer with similar gears to mine on selfbuffs hitting him for 7-8k non crits. for fvcks sake...


what i thought maybe the DPH is dead, maybe the new nature of a wizard is to have a channelling cape helmet weapon shards and just furiously spam demon wellspring... but still cast times and cooldown times and chi cost of barely useless ultis (cept bt)

man i really don't know...

wizard has clear-up potential in mass pvp against clusters of lesser geared ones but wiz is completely ignorable at endgame

we dont have damage? ok lets go tanky and josd, but nope... any purge paralyze or assassin can still delete us while there is sh.it around like fox form...

lets do a petition on wanmei forums b:cry

Joe - Morai

jspwione wrote: »

Read what people are actually saying. This guy is claming a non-deity wizard NEVER killed him in general. He is +10 defensively with exclusive citrine. That's straight up nonsense. So whatever you've said doesn't actually have anything to do with the subject. We're not talking about 1v1 full buffs etc. which everyone shouldn't be wasting their time on because it's pointless. And at real endgame, every class can bloody 'turtle', 'kite', tank, run, use abilities and not die in a 1v1 scenario, whether fully buffed or not.

then what is your point. if you call it bs that this myst never got killed by a non-deity wizard then obviously he is talking about 1on1s. you cant count in a possible kill of a wiz while 3 or more ppl have been hitting on him. thats senseless. maybe he never 1on1ed a wizard of that kind or only lesser geared one. who knows.

why do you insist so much on malind assumptions in unrealistic scenarios. mass pvp is random and any active mass PvPer got finished by each and every class at least once. chances are good for that to be true but you still can't be sure.

anyways...discussions about who can kill who are always solely about 1on1s. why? because anything else would be frigginly **** nonesense.

"man. that tt80 guy took the lucky finishing blow and killed you, mr. endgame geared player. haha man you are such a nun getting killed by a tt80 player." - BS much?

jspwione

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

K/D ? For real ?
It has always been biased. It depends if you play in a big faction or not and face bigger or smaller factions in TW. If you are often ganked or rather gank people. It also depends if you OS a lot of low geared people or fight a lot of R9.3 squads in NW.
Besides mystics were a more recent class and they had hard times at first in PVP.
And rankings haven't been updated in what ? 1 year ?
I myself have a ratio of 6 while being in the top 50/60 in number of kills whole server, so it was relevant enough to claim I know what I'm talking about I guess. This was pre new horizon and since NH my ratio would easily be 10 or 15 since I die in average 2 or 3 times in NW (max probably is 5 or 6 in 2015 and I often finish with 0 or 1 death). But this means nohing at all because if I'm getting ganked on a map I don't insist. So K/D means nothing at all... People that refers to K/D to say if someone has good survivability or not are surprising...



In which situations exactly ? Basically mystics have better phy res and mag res than psychics/clerics due to their autobuff. Clerics buffs are good but spirit of defence can grant the same buffs. And mystics can leech pets to increase defense even more or use natural barrier.
Psychics can have more defense levels but they can't spam heal themselves (and anyway a wizard will probably struggle a lot trying to kill a buffed psychic in defensive mode, even if I don't have the same experience as with a mystic)

Surprising? You know what is? Your claim that mystics have better survivability than a cleric and psychic even though I just showed you that they average lower K/D. Fair enough if you consider it bias to compare psychics who are DDs. But don't you realize for a lot of clerics, they do play as the role of a pure healer from time to time, they just try to keep as many people in their squad alive, they rarely do anything fancy offensively which is totally detrimental to their K/D. No excuses for mystics to average lower K/D.

So you still wanna say they have better survivability than a cleric even though they average lower K/D right? You better state that they are rubbish at DDing hence they have lower K/D even with better survivability, people might actually believe it.

jspwione

Joe - Morai wrote: »

then what is your point. if you call it bs that this myst never got killed by a non-deity wizard then obviously he is talking about 1on1s. you cant count in a possible kill of a wiz while 3 or more ppl have been hitting on him. thats senseless. maybe he never 1on1ed a wizard of that kind or only lesser geared one. who knows.

why do you insist so much on malind assumptions in unrealistic scenarios. mass pvp is random and any active mass PvPer got finished by each and every class at least once. chances are good for that to be true but you still can't be sure.

anyways...discussions about who can kill who are always solely about 1on1s. why? because anything else would be frigginly **** nonesense.

"man. that tt80 guy took the lucky finishing blow and killed you, mr. endgame geared player. haha man you are such a nun getting killed by a tt80 player." - BS much?

https://youtu.be/taIfgDW3P5Q

Joe - Morai

jspwione wrote: »

Surprising? You know what is? Your claim that mystics have better survivability than a cleric and psychic even though I just showed you that they average lower K/D. Fair enough if you consider it bias to compare psychics who are DDs. But don't you realize for a lot of clerics, they do play as the role of a pure healer from time to time, they just try to keep as many people in their squad alive, they rarely do anything fancy offensively which is totally detrimental to their K/D. No excuses for mystics to average lower K/D.

So you still wanna say they have better survivability than a cleric even though they average lower K/D right? You better state that they are rubbish at DDing hence they have lower K/D even with better survivability, people might actually believe it.

the heck is wrong with you? no one gives a rats **** about the KD in this as it is broken for years now. if this game would have ranked PvP or solely 1on1 on equal terms then yes, a KD would be important. as gear and luck are both heavy factors revolving around the KD and also factoring in that you could easily manipulate the KD in your favour by killing your alts each hour makes this total bs.

stop this babbling about KD cause it will make you look like a fool. KD is unrelevant here. you only showcase how low your knowledge of todays meta in this game is. stop it please.

also please stop implying that any player is actually on the same skill level. we have good and bad players. a victory over a bad player is not a victory and can for sure not be used as a common example.

could I kill a myst with a wizard? yes. could I kill most mystics with a wizard? yes. do I know the game good enough to do that? yes. does the majority of nublets who play this game also have this knowledge? no.

some ppl will and can win through skill alone on equal terms. some others cant.

Zoldi - Morai

Well... ok...
First we're talking about post NH, right ? Rankings haven't been updated once since that upgrade, this is totally outdated.
Secondly, as I explained above, K/D is biased and you can't just say people with best K/D are just better DD or with a better survivability. You can disagree with what I said (i gave you real examples), but then explain why...
Lastly I think I didn't only claim that mystics had better survivability. I talked about Phy/mag resistances, about healing. But you prefer considering outdated K/D ratio rather than basic facts ?

Ok....

P.S. : And yes mystics are better DD than they used to be pre-NH... and they finally had an AOE from range which proves very useful in PVP (therefore also for your beloved ratio)

jspwione

Joe - Morai wrote: »

the heck is wrong with you? no one gives a rats **** about the KD in this as it is broken for years now. if this game would have ranked PvP or solely 1on1 on equal terms then yes, a KD would be important. as gear and luck are both heavy factors revolving around the KD and also factoring in that you could easily manipulate the KD in your favour by killing your alts each hour makes this total bs.

stop this babbling about KD cause it will make you look like a fool. KD is unrelevant here. you only showcase how low your knowledge of todays meta in this game is. stop it please.

also please stop implying that any player is actually on the same skill level. we have good and bad players. a victory over a bad player is not a victory and can for sure not be used as a common example.

could I kill a myst with a wizard? yes. could I kill most mystics with a wizard? yes. do I know the game good enough to do that? yes. does the majority of nublets who play this game also have this knowledge? no.

some ppl will and can win through skill alone on equal terms. some others cant.

Others get higher K/D because they can kill their alts while the mystics can't do that?

Mystics have lousier luck and gears as well that's why they have lower K/D.

Okay. b:laugh

Zoldi - Morai wrote: »

Well... ok...
First we're talking about post NH, right ? Rankings haven't been updated once since that upgrade, this is totally outdated.
Secondly, as I explained above, K/D is biased and you can't just say people with best K/D are just better DD or with a better survivability. You can disagree with what I said (i gave you real examples), but then explain why...
Lastly I think I didn't only claim that mystics had better survivability. I talked about Phy/mag resistances, about healing. But you prefer considering outdated K/D ratio rather than basic facts ?

Ok....

P.S. : And yes mystics are better DD than they used to be pre-NH... and they finally had an AOE from range which proves very useful in PVP (therefore also for your beloved ratio)

Nah it's been updated until some time earlier this year.

mulier

psychic is teh bests

CapnK - Sanctuary

jspwione wrote: »

https://youtu.be/taIfgDW3P5Q

That mystic has comparable gear to me but not comparable skill. At least in the video, he didn't display any knowledge of control skills at all.

MysticBoob made his own video to display the true power of the mystic class, check it out:

http://tinyurl.com/mysticpower

jspwione

CapnK - Sanctuary wrote: »

That mystic has comparable gear to me but not comparable skill. At least in the video, he didn't display any knowledge of control skills at all.

MysticBoob made his own video to display the true power of the mystic class, check it out:

http://tinyurl.com/mysticpower

I didn't know you could display knowledge.

Oh, you referring to spam dying and resurrecting right after? I wish all mystics follow this tradition strictly instead of respawning.

elyse789

Hello. Can some one explain to me what this update would do for sins. XD am not very smart with thinking about all the corners, but to my knowledge some sins don't use elimination as a charm tick weapon some of them use the low profile skills which drop your hp to 50% then they use cursed jail, in which case completely blows the effects of the HP charm away dropping your hp back to 50% lets just say basically they save the best for last.However with this update 25% hp for all that also means its a benefit for the sins so am not sure is this update a nerf or.... ? Also if i may add i don't think sins care about 1 shoting some one they just care about launching elimination, life hunter at the best possible moment right ?b:cry so confusing

CapnK - Sanctuary

jspwione wrote: »

I didn't know you could display knowledge.

That's because you have none to display.

http://memegenerator.net/instance/61723195

---

As for sins, I don't think they come out well in the expansion. 25% more hp helps their opponents more than them, and they want to win on the first charm tick, not the second.

mulier

to get this discussion back on track :

IMHO - some kind of defense mitigation is the next thing the game(especially our westernized version) desperately needs.

we kinda came to a point in overall gearprogression, that makes it very hard to kill each other endgame if buffed and no means of dispelling those buffs or debuffs are at hand.

to me it feels like the amplifying skills and debuff skills are way too essential in pvp - so it would be a step into the right direction to give a new attribute that can deal with the unbalance of dmg vs defense(apart from debuffing) - on the other hand -- it could seperate the balence between those that can debuff and those that cant even further apartb:shocked


any thoughts on this matter?

Joe - Morai

mulier wrote: »

to get this discussion back on track :

IMHO - some kind of defense mitigation is the next thing the game(especially our westernized version) desperately needs.

we kinda came to a point in overall gearprogression, that makes it very hard to kill each other endgame if buffed and no means of dispelling those buffs or debuffs are at hand.

to me it feels like the amplifying skills and debuff skills are way too essential in pvp - so it would be a step into the right direction to give a new attribute that can deal with the unbalance of dmg vs defense(apart from debuffing) - on the other hand -- it could seperate the balence between those that can debuff and those that cant even further apartb:shocked


any thoughts on this matter?

I'd say...let's have more Paynisses.

mulier

okok ... psy is teh bestzb:angry

XXHotXx - Morai

make debuffs act on the global resistance value and not on the base value, that would be a "nerf" to unkillable full buffed toons

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

Basically we can all agree this game needs a revamp and re-balance of classes.

wizards QQing about 14k hits on endgame toon.. lol

XXHotXx - Morai

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

Basically we can all agree this game needs a revamp and re-balance of classes.

wizards QQing about 14k hits on endgame toon.. lol

if you consider that 14k happens at the cost of 5 sparks, takes 10 seconds to be delivered and we cant redeliver it in the following 5 minutes, also the target has at least 30k hp

yea FFS that 14k should be a faking 30k at least

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

no man. You smoking. 30k would be too EZ to kill.

You should see what archers do for damage.

Euzebe - Sanctuary

Were you ever under the impression he wanted targets to be difficult for him to kill? Ping will be the victor if everyone can 1-shot everyone else.

XXHotXx - Morai

Euzebe - Sanctuary wrote: »

Were you ever under the impression he wanted targets to be difficult for him to kill? Ping will be the victor if everyone can 1-shot everyone else.

bleah... like if you have any idea how a 3spark blade tempest work and cost... garbage forum heroes...

Strife_son - Sanctuary

Don't think I've ever seen a wizard on our server waste their time trying to deliver a 3spark BT. Wizards on Sanctuary seem to do just fine, especially when they play smart and target the right people/groups. End-game wizards here are pretty brutal, especially when they have a decent gear advantage.

There are strong 1v1 classes (sins/DBs) and there are strong mass pvp classes (wizards/psys). This seems like a pretty basic concept for long time players to grasp. Expecting to be both a powerful 1v1 class and a mass pvp CC class is childish.

I suppose if you want to kill everyone easily and feel like a hero, you could just go play a JRPG or something? End-game in those games you pretty much one-hit everything.

XXHotXx - Morai

Strife_son - Sanctuary wrote: »

Don't think I've ever seen a wizard on our server waste their time trying to deliver a 3spark BT. Wizards on Sanctuary seem to do just fine, especially when they play smart and target the right people/groups. End-game wizards here are pretty brutal, especially when they have a decent gear advantage.

There are strong 1v1 classes (sins/DBs) and there are strong mass pvp classes (wizards/psys). This seems like a pretty basic concept for long time players to grasp. Expecting to be both a powerful 1v1 class and a mass pvp CC class is childish.

I suppose if you want to kill everyone easily and feel like a hero, you could just go play a JRPG or something? End-game in those games you pretty much one-hit everything.

why the topic always gets switched back to wizards doe...

wizard ultis such bt bid and ms, were intentionally designed to aoe-kill since the start of pwi, when the skills were designed the skill themselves were delivering double if not triple the damage any other skill would land (cept for BT)

now they just deal almost the damage of a basic skill (cept for BT)

if none in your server is doing 3spark blade tempests there is something wrong cause that **** should potentially onehit clusters in TW

and once again i see that Sanctuary named again, too bad pretty much everyone is rerolling from sanctuary to our server and the amount of wcs of infra-server sanct-to-morai trades are too damn high, guess the quality of the pvp is not that good there?

and tell me, if not a 3spark bt, which is the hardest hitting single-hit skill for a wizard?

undine 3spark ice prison spark d.pyro? yes if the target isn't buffed, but at that point an undine gush is already more than enough

in a mass pvp scenario were everyone is full buffed and can insta rebuff with pills, 3spark bt is the best single hit "nuke" you can land as a wizard

just mathwise:

wizard average endgame base damage = 50k -> 3spark = 90k -> bt = 90k phys + 90k fire + 6k phys + 6k fire = nearly 200k damage aoe -> pvp reduction -75%

= 50k now calculate your atk\def levels and resistances reduction on a buffed average endgame you have 60 atk lvls over def (80k) and around 15% "damage range" from resistances reduction -> 12k -> if you crit it hoping in the flame shield = 24k (waste of time right? but what if crit? )

mathwise is hard to compare the 3spark undine spark ip d pyro, cause of the buff\debuff mechanics are currently really hard to reproduce mathwise so i'll just assume undine spark to reduce a considerable fixed value (from 85% damage redux (25000 fire resistance) to 83% 18000 fire resistance)

base damage = 50k-> 3spark = 90k -> ice prison 30% damage amp -> 127k -> pvp reduction

= 32k -> atk lvls = 51k -> 17% damage range from resistance reduction (calculated after undine spark that reduced your fire resistance to 18000 value) = 8,6k -> if you crit it 17k


3spark blade tempest > 3spark fire combo on full buffed targets :-) (and oh yea i forgot you could also undine spark blade tempest but that would mean to go into a closer range)

and the fire combo is a single target burst, while the 3spark bt has "aoe clear-up potential"

and fire combo on unbuffed targets is overkill since you could just dph them down with basic skills

->

fire combo utility very less substantial as it was in the past in any scenario

->

wizard ultis being still our best overall hits but with the highest chi cost among any class, without wizard ability to rebuild chi as fast as other classes, with that channelling time and predictability

->

wizard ultis need more damage

Bhavyy - Raging Tide

meanwhile asterelle calculates that gof crit on archer weapon would still not make up for all the damage nerfs over the last 3 major updates..

XXHotXx - Morai

Bhavyy - Raging Tide wrote: »

meanwhile asterelle calculates that gof crit on archer weapon would still not make up for all the damage nerfs over the last 3 major updates..

archer is not and never had been a DPH class

Dark_one - Harshlands

@XXHotXx -

Idk, maybe you have done something wrong with your wizard, or you don`t have primal skills or what, but when you`r talking about wizards being weak, i have a feeling we play 2 different games. Best PVPers on HL are wizards, they hit hard and being almost unkillable with primal passives and self buff. If you don`t believe me, ill post a video where 1 wizard fights vs 3 others and wizard is victor.
But i suggest you to use your time you spend on forums QQing about wizards being weak, learning this class out and trying out new combos. Ofc, combos you used 7 years ago wont be that effective right now, aswell back then sins were apsing like crazy monkeys but everything has changed, aswell your class skills have emprowed, just study them out, son!b:bye