PWI PvP Tournament [Now with sign-up dates in red]

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

like i already stated before, its only to make the hurdle higher be it physically or mentally. Some pple like it lower, the cards in their hands are preset, preplanned, prearranged etc and the only challenge is duking it out with the other side. And then there are those that prefer it higher, a surprise box, you dont know what you get but you work with what you get on your side and the other side, and it makes the accomplishment of the challenges much more. Outside your comfort zone is where the challenges begin.

That's not a "higher hurdle," that's just removing the potential for some areas of effort. You're not allowing people to pre-plan their squad composition, which is an important part of preparation; you're not rewarding people for having experience working together, which is an important part of group play; and you're completely throwing the potential for voice communication out the window -- not to mention subjecting all participants to the fate of random selection. Whether anyone succeeds or not is no longer dependent on them and the team they choose, but on whether they get randomly stuck with good people or crappy people.

This is a group tournament. People should be able to enter it as a group, and they should be able to participate in that group.

Eoria - Harshlands

I know what you're getting at Decep, but I'd prefer they prove they can pull this off with pre-arranged teams first before trying a random team one.

Azura - Lost City

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

like i already stated before, its only to make the hurdle higher be it physically or mentally. Some pple like it lower, the cards in their hands are preset, preplanned, prearranged etc and the only challenge is duking it out with the other side. And then there are those that prefer it higher, a surprise box, you dont know what you get but you work with what you get on your side and the other side, and it makes the accomplishment of the challenges much more. Outside your comfort zone is where the challenges begin.

We are not having a self improvement and exploration group. We are having (or trying to have) a PvP tournament. Going out of the comfort zone is not what interest us or the purpose of the tournament.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

We are not having a self improvement and exploration group. We are having (or trying to have) a PvP tournament. Going out of the comfort zone is not what interest us or the purpose of the tournament.

if not for improvement, excitement, or the challenge, they might as well just make everyone lv30 gearless clerics with lv1 skills lv1 meds and call it serious PK, fair PVP in a kids sandbox. Maybe add in visuals of R999 josd?

you want something special that pple will remember and work for
I dont think you should remain in your comfort zone, it's important to be able to step outside of it and be challenged with something you're not familiar or accustomed to. That challenge will allow you to see what you can really do rather than your routine dance your used to with your friends. That goes for you, your partners, and your opponents.
get out of your comfort zone, and try succeed in doing well outside of your comfort areas.

But again, this is just an idea im bouncing out. There is no reason to debate it like your worried pwi might get ...creative.... b:chuckle

Azura - Lost City

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

if not for improvement, excitement, or the challenge, they might as well just make everyone lv30 gearless clerics with lv1 skills lv1 meds and call it serious PK, fair PVP in a kids sandbox. Maybe add in visuals of R999 josd?

you want something special that pple will remember and work for
I dont think you should remain in your comfort zone, it's important to be able to step outside of it and be challenged with something you're not familiar or accustomed to. That challenge will allow you to see what you can really do rather than your routine dance your used to with your friends.
Ok, I'll try to put that in practice... IN REAL LIFE.

That goes for you, your partners, and your opponents.
get out of your comfort zone, and try succeed in doing well outside of your comfort areas.

But again, this is just an idea im bouncing out. There is no reason to debate it like your worried pwi might get ...creative.... b:chuckle

As for the tourney, it will be more exciting and memorable to do it with my friends and pals I've always pked with. We've always wanted to test our skills in a regulated enviroment after all. I hope you don't have troubles finding enough people

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

As for the tourney, it will be more exciting and memorable to do it with my friends and pals I've always pked with. We've always wanted to test our skills in a regulated enviroment after all. I hope you don't have troubles finding enough people

you can do that outside safezone anywhere on any map now with just 10-15min unbothered time no way someones gonna touch that sort of concept IRL if their not even willing to try in on a pretend pixel game

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

you can do that outside safezone anywhere on any map now with just 10-15min unbothered time

With enough people, sure. The same goes for randomed or captain's-pick squads. Your point?

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

With enough people, sure. The same goes for randomed or captain's-pick squads. Your point?

there is no point, the whole reason a thread such as this exists is to bounce around thoughts and ideas, hello. Im only replying because you guys cant seem to leave alone ideas that are remotely different than your favorite fully geared/buffed/apoth/carded BFF Pk cliquesquad method

Azura - Lost City

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

you can do that outside safezone anywhere on any map now with just 10-15min unbothered time no way someones gonna touch that sort of concept IRL if their not even willing to try in on a pretend pixel game

Since you insist on mixing real life with this game: tell me of some kind of tournament or competetion in teams where you register and before the competition starts you are assigned on a random team with randoms you don't know and never practiced together with.b:chuckle

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Since you insist on mixing real life with this game: tell me of some kind of tournament or competetion in teams where you register and before the competition starts you are assigned on a random team with randoms you don't know and never practiced together with.b:chuckle

http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=21573691&postcount=159
you can make another thread for that if you want. This sticky is to talk about ideas, not your ideals.

Euthymius - Heavens Tear

I actually agree with Deceptistar on this one. Random team ups would be quite a twist compared to all other PvP events like NW/TW were most have the opportunity to ally themselves with those they're used to working with. It would be more interesting to see two squads not only work to overcome one another, but also pull together well enough to overcome themselves.

....Too bad it probably wont happen

Jarkhen - Archosaur

This thread is for discussing ideas, not just presenting them. Sparkie isn't as experienced with this game as we'd like (or he'd like, I'm sure), so we're his best reference for how things would work best. Which yes, means we should be throwing out ideas, but it also means we should be critically examining those ideas to see whether they hold any merit.

If you don't like your idea being debated, or you think it wouldn't hold up to proper debate, then it probably doesn't belong here as a legitimate suggestion.

Azura - Lost City

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

This thread is for discussing ideas, not just presenting them. Sparkie isn't as experienced with this game as we'd like (or he'd like, I'm sure), so we're his best reference for how things would work best. Which yes, means we should be throwing out ideas, but it also means we should be critically examining those ideas to see whether they hold any merit.

If you don't like your idea being debated, or you think it wouldn't hold up to proper debate, then it probably doesn't belong here as a legitimate suggestion.

Exactly! +1.

We cannot limit ourselves to just brainstorming, we also have to discuss each idea because Sparkie doesn't know this game as well as we would like.

For example at the beginning it had been considered to have everyone remove their cards, and that happened only because someone said it. But then later on, it was discussed why this was a bad idea and that rule was eliminated.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

if its a group VS group PVP why dont you randomly mix n match pple instead of letting them make their own 'comfy' little groups that read each others minds and moves, just to make it a little more ...thought inducing.
After all, you want it to be a step different than normal PVP gank outside safezone.

Here's a list of reasons why I think random squads wouldn't be a good thing:

-No communication, I won't add strangers to my skype for 1 event as those players won't necessary have vent/TS, so a high possibility of no communication and everyone that do PVP know how communication is important. (and please don't tell me people can type in squad chat, we all know that speaking>typing for PVP)

-I don't know about you, but a lot of people have people they hate in BL, what if you get place in a team of someone you hate? In a squad of someone that I don't know scammed you, stole your wife or someone you cannot stand. Events are for fun, people shouldn't force to play with players they hate.

-Let's say there's 20 players that want to participate, so the GM need to make 4 teams of 5 players, what about if there's only 3 clerics? That mean there's a squad with no cleric, which will be an handicap for that team, while if people make their own teams then it's their choice to use some classes or not, but they shouldn't be force to play without any class cause the lack of that class while the GM make the teams.

-What if you are the best at you class and get put with really really unskilled people that know nothing about their class? You would like to automatically lose cause the GM randomly did put you in a squad of idiots?

-Events are made to have fun, majority of people have fun when they play with their friends. Random squads could be frustrating for some players if they feel like they was put in the ''bad'' squad.

-Not everyone speak the same language, what if a Spanish speaker get put in a squad that just speak English? Or if you get put in a squad of people that all speak Spanish while you don't?

For all those reasons I think random squads aren't a great idea, but communication is the biggest reason of all, PVP event without communication = GG.com and with random squads you are probably sure to don't have communication.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

This thread is for discussing ideas, not just presenting them. Sparkie isn't as experienced with this game as we'd like (or he'd like, I'm sure), so we're his best reference for how things would work best. Which yes, means we should be throwing out ideas, but it also means we should be critically examining those ideas to see whether they hold any merit.

If you don't like your idea being debated, or you think it wouldn't hold up to proper debate, then it probably doesn't belong here as a legitimate suggestion.

We have been presenting ideas,

the only thing you have been critically debating in this full 17pg thread is for a full cashshop tourney with an all you can eat QQ meal in the exact order of
- carded
- geared
- BFFcliquegroupsquad
- Charmed
- apoth
- gear swap
- genied
- defcharm
- flying
basically everything you can lay your hands on. Your whole discussion would end in a "I want everything"

Selak - Dreamweaver

The concept of random made groups has a lot of real world value.

My Great Uncle Brian said something to me one day when talking about his experiences in WW2 as an Australian soldier. He said something I have never forgotten.

"I joined up in Burnie with a group of school friends, and we trained together before we were sent to New Guinea, we ended up as a 4 man machine gun crew with me as barrel changer and my other friends as operator, ammunition changer and rifle guardsman.
For the first 9 months up there it was shear boredom of drills till we saw our first action, within a month none of the original crew I started with was alive and and with the new blokes, I got to the point where, we never got too close and it stayed that way till I was captured about 6 months later."

Working in teams with friends shows you're good, but working in teams with strangers shows you're very good in my eyes.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands wrote: »

pinky pink snipped!

hmm such a long list!
Although i think, from my perspective, at least half of the things could possibly (maybe) work around with what i wrote on pg16?

Azura - Lost City

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

basically everything you can lay your hands on. Your whole discussion would end in a "I want everything"

Yes we are gonna have everything so let's discuss about this better:

sparkiesoft wrote: »

I
My question to you now, what do you think the threshold for attack, defense, soul force, spirit should be for the highest tier?

EG: Players with 100-150 attack, 200-300 defense, 100-200 soul force, 200-300 spirit. Anyone with those numbers, or in-between would qualify for the highest tier. (Keep in mind I made up these numbers, as I don't know what they would look like on the highest tiered players)

What sparkie asked is very important, and in my opinion a bit hard to answer.

The reason for this to be hard is because now a lot of things come into play for categorizing. Cards, gears, soul force. There are for example some people that if you compare their gears they look very similar, but in fact one is vastly better equipped because of the cards. Some people my have full +12 with josd stones but bad cards, while others have a really good set of S cards (which in my opinion is a completely new category).

If the survival index considers the stats and soul force gained by cards, then we should probably look at that value for categorizing.

I have another question Sparkie (and sorry because this is going to be controversial). Are we also going to compete against people who got a full Neuma set? Which most people think were given by a GM as a "gift".

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

We have been presenting ideas,

the only thing you have been critically debating in this full 17pg thread is for a full cashshop tourney with an all you can eat QQ meal in the exact order of
- carded
- geared
- BFFcliquegroupsquad
- Charmed
- apoth
- gear swap
- genied
- defcharm
- flying
basically everything you can lay your hands on. Your whole discussion would end in a "I want everything"

Call it what you want, of course I've been arguing in favor of that setup -- because that's what I believe would be the best option, just like you've been arguing in favor of random squads because you believe that would be the best option. You presented ideas that challenged the ones that were already being accepted (and were the ones I agreed with), so of course I argued against them. This is how critical discussion works, in case you weren't aware.

• - Yes, I want cards (I can't use my gear without it, nor can many others). Please note that my cards in particular are far from spectacular and my advocacy for this option actually disadvantages me.
• - Yes, I want gear, what are you implying? That we should go around whacking people with no gear on? I advocated for an equal-gear separate-server option earlier, if you didn't notice, until Sparkie pointed out that wasn't an option.
• - Of course I want to be in a group with my friends. I work well with them (they're my friends, after all). I have the ability to pre-plan with them. I have the ability to set up squads that favor our strengths and cover our weaknesses. I have the ability to properly communicate with them via Skype or Vent. And I want to fight opponents who have those same advantages.
• - No **** I want charms. PvP in this game is balanced around charms -- charm bypassing, charm racing. Without charms, the class with the best CC and/or heals wins every time, and that's no fun.
• - Why would I not want apoth? It's another element of strategy in the game.
• - Why would I not want gear swapping? See above. If a seeker wants to swap to a def-level r8r sword, why not let them? If a sin wants to swap into aps gear (for who knows what reason, but that's beside the point), why not let them?
• - If you're trying to imply having a PvP tournament without genies is a good idea... I don't even know what to say to that. It's part of the game.
• - Why would I not want def charms? See above.
• - I specifically mentioned I could see the flight argument going either way, though I personally prefer it since it, once again, adds another element of strategy to the game.

Of course I want a tournament that enables all of the features the game has to offer. It seems absurd not to. What's the point of disabling apoth? Apoth doesn't unbalance the game in favor of one specific class. Nor do charms (they do the opposite, in fact), genies, gear swapping, or defense charms. Enabling flying causes a headache for some classes, but it has its drawbacks as well -- triple damage from some skills (Berserker's Wrath, anyone?) and halved damage to ground targets.

I want a competition where two squads can properly show their ability to use all of the tools at their disposal to defeat their opponents. I don't see how this is somehow such a bad thing.


EDIT: Oh god, they don't have lists styled on the forums either? Please, sparkie, for the love of Pan Gu have them fix it (or, hell, let someone in the community do it. I'd gladly take a few hours to get things looking proper around here).


============

(adding this here instead of double-posting)

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Yes we are gonna have everything so let's discuss about this better:



What sparkie asked is very important, and in my opinion a bit hard to answer.

The reason for this to be hard is because now a lot of things come into play for categorizing. Cards, gears, soul force. There are for example some people that if you compare their gears they look very similar, but in fact one is vastly better equipped because of the cards. Some people my have full +12 with josd stones but bad cards, while others have a really good set of S cards (which in my opinion is a completely new category).

If the survival index considers the stats and soul force gained by cards, then we should probably look at that value for categorizing.

I have another question Sparkie (and sorry because this is going to be controversial). Are we also going to compete against people who got a full Neuma set? Which most people think were given by a GM as a "gift".

Referring to my earlier post:

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

The more I think about it (and the more I go around and look), the more I think we should stick with survival index and ignore damage index, which doesn't seem to make much sense (a full r9r3+12 nw upgraded seeker on my server has 93k, while a +10 non-nw veno has 106k -- and you have issues with e.g. barbs, where a +12 josd barb here has 25k).

For the rest -- it's hard to say for sure, but I would put as an absolute minimum:

>150k survival index (maybe something higher for barbs? idk)
>275 spirit (which is somewhere around MS X w/ unleveled B lifeprime + soulprime cards)
>25k soulforce (which is ~= full +10 without NW upgrades)

And leave it at that. Any higher, and you'd be restricting against people that I'd argue would have a place in top-tier fights, at least on Archo (unless you literally only want 2 or 3 squads total participating). You might want to make an exception in a case where one person in a submitted team doesn't quite meet the requirements (bend the rules a little) -- maybe just say that's the requirement for the average gear level.

Also, remember to note that if you have an index that's high enough, there seems to be an overflow error somewhere and it ends up displaying as zero. These people should automatically qualify.

Alternatively, you could do away with the survival index altogether. It's a pain for people to figure out (they have to get an eye of observation or a jungle belt), and spirit + soulforce should do the job fine.

I'd also like to reiterate that I'd 100x prefer a 10v10 format over 5v5 or 3v3, even if it means splitting the reward 10 ways (leave the 2-per-class restriction as is). It'd be much more interesting and you'd have less trouble with class imbalances.

Damage index is definitely not usable for this. Survivability index is feasible, but I'm not really sure it really gives a good idea of how well-geared someone is.

Also, remember that this is group PvP -- I don't know how your server looks, but on Archosaur if you started limiting people by cards as well as gear you wouldn't even get enough people in the top tier for one squad, let alone enough for a proper competition.

Perhaps the best way to handle it would be, instead of trying to create a cutoff, do this:

Let anyone submit a squad listing, along with gear descriptions (gear, refines, shards, cards). If you want x number of squads participating in the event, just take the x best-geared squads from those that submitted an entry. Later on, when you're doing multiple tiers, you can then take the second x squads for the 2nd tier, 3rd x squads for the 3rd tier, etc.

There's a bit of subjectivity in that, but I think that's actually a fairly good thing because with all of the different things affecting combat, it's hard to pin gear level down to a single value. The only problem I see with this is that it would require someone experienced enough with endgame to be able to make those sorts of gear evaluations to sort the entries.

If you don't do that, you'd honestly probably have to make different standards for each server as to what constitutes "top-tier," because it certainly varies and if you just use one static standard you'll probably end up with some servers having 6+ squads qualify and others only having 1-2.


Also, I'd agree with instantly disqualifying anyone who has been directly mailed items from PWE for anything except a "I-accidentally-npc'd-my-pants" kind of support request. Whether they were given it as a "gift" or they cut corners and bought items directly from PWE or whatever the case may be, I'm sure you guys have a record of it, and those people should be disqualified because they're given an absurdly large advantage over everyone else. This doesn't just apply to nuema portal cards either, though they are certainly the biggest offenders due to the insane stats those cards give.

Eoria - Harshlands

You could also potentially limit the number of OP people in a squad anyway by putting in a requirement like, say, no more than 1 person in squad with more than X amount of survival index/spirit.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

You could also potentially limit the number of OP people in a squad anyway by putting in a requirement like, say, no more than 1 person in squad with more than X amount of survival index/spirit.

You could, but I'm hesitant because of potential restrictions/exceptions that raises. Barbs, for example, have significantly higher survival indexes than other classes -- compare, for example, a barb without josd vs. another class with josd. You also may have situations where someone might have max-leveled their Soulprime and Lifeprime S-cards but only have lv1 A cards in other slots (and no josd), or vice versa -- someone with max level S cards in everything else, and only lv1 A-rank Soulprime and Lifeprime cards.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

well ok, i see your guys point on one side,

although, with everything stacked, its looking like this to me,
the comparison between a nonsafezone fight and some of the said ideas; if its an all out use-everything PVP then its no different other than the fact that, Azure pointed out an interesting point, its in a "controlled environment" instead of out of city PK.

If sparkie is actually asking for discussion of ideas, then that means hes taking into account that we have at least a small say in what we might want in this right? Knowing PWI it would be MONTHS before a 2nd PVP tourney can take place, and this is only if its even successful (i think it would be successful but watching pwi through the years i think they will be too busy for a 2nd one with all the other games they are hosting no). So then rather than using up such a chance on a 'choice' of "controlled environment" with the rest same as normal PK, wouldnt it be more resourceful and unique to up the challenges in a way which the player base themselves have no power in (your own actions excluded), which adds to part of the anticipation and excitement.

Eoria - Harshlands

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

You could, but I'm hesitant because of potential restrictions/exceptions that raises. Barbs, for example, have significantly higher survival indexes than other classes -- compare, for example, a barb without josd vs. another class with josd. You also may have situations where someone might have max-leveled their Soulprime and Lifeprime S-cards but only have lv1 A cards in other slots (and no josd), or vice versa -- someone with max level S cards in everything else, and only lv1 A-rank Soulprime and Lifeprime cards.

idk. It's a lot of variables, tbh.

What would probably be best is if sparkie worked with a couple people from each server that aren't participating in the tourney for the signups to help guide the teams to be more equal-ish gear-wise instead of all the max geared chars going into one or two squads.

Azura - Lost City

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

-snip-


Also, I'd agree with instantly disqualifying anyone who has been directly mailed items from PWE for anything except a "I-accidentally-npc'd-my-pants" kind of support request. Whether they were given it as a "gift" or they cut corners and bought items directly from PWE or whatever the case may be, I'm sure you guys have a record of it, and those people should be disqualified because they're given an absurdly large advantage over everyone else. This doesn't just apply to nuema portal cards either, though they are certainly the biggest offenders due to the insane stats those cards give.

In my opinion disqualify only those who got the nuema set. What other kind of items have been given as gifts besides nuema sets and the Cape which is a reward from doing all the Trophy mode instances? I can only think of those two.

The cape in my opinion isn't near game breaking so I wouldn't mind if they use it for tourney, however the ones who have a full nuema shouldn't be allowed to participate.

And I agree with all the rest.

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

idk. It's a lot of variables, tbh.

... instead of all the max geared chars going into one or two squads.

I doubt that would happen in my server. There is/was a lot of competition among the best geared people. Even among my guild there was quite a lot.

If things went as I envision them, I'm pretty sure I would fight even some of my friends, if we get the change.

And for what I know of my server, probably most teams would have 1 really op char, and the rest from "not-bad" to "kinda-weak".

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

In my opinion disqualify only those who got the nuema set. What other kind of items have been given as gifts besides nuema sets and the Cape which is a reward from doing all the Trophy mode instances? I can only think of those two.

Crown of Madness on my server, if I'm guessing correctly, but that's speculation on my part. It's less game-breaking than nuema portal, certainly, but it seems kind of weird to say illegitimate nuema portal sets are banned but illegitimate other items aren't.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

hmm such a long list!
Although i think, from my perspective, at least half of the things could possibly (maybe) work around with what i wrote on pg16?

I see nothing about communication I must be blind, can you please quote it?

Azura - Lost City

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Crown of Madness on my server, if I'm guessing correctly, but that's speculation on my part. It's less game-breaking than nuema portal, certainly, but it seems kind of weird to say illegitimate nuema portal sets are banned but illegitimate other items aren't.

Wasn't aware of that, and I really have no idea how many could be that got that helmet in a illegitimate way.

I wonder if everyone with a Crown of Madness got it as a gift.

ovenusarmanio

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Crown of Madness on my server, if I'm guessing correctly, but that's speculation on my part. It's less game-breaking than nuema portal, certainly, but it seems kind of weird to say illegitimate nuema portal sets are banned but illegitimate other items aren't.

If you have any legitimate information or reason to think that, feel free to submit Sparkie a pm. Or you can just send it to one of the mods and we can pass it on if you want. But let's not start rumors about everyone's crowns.....or derail this thread with that type of discussion.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

If you have any legitimate information or reason to think that, feel free to submit Sparkie a pm. Or you can just send it to one of the mods and we can pass it on if you want. But let's not start rumors about everyone's crowns.....or derail this thread with that type of discussion.

Wasn't derailing, was adding to the comment on the potential for disqualification.

Longknife - Harshlands

sparkiesoft wrote: »

• -No charms

Inb4 only Tideborn, clerics and mystics accomplish a damned thing.

GMs, are you aware clerics for example are currently capable of sleeping targets and killing them without waking them up, thus leaving the opponent incapable of doing....anything? Charms sorta counteract this, but even charmed, this game is balanced around group PVP, not 1v1. If you do 1v1, I promise you every server will produce a sin or cleric as it's champion. FFS, if this doesn't happen, I'll eat my shoe. That's how sure I am it'll happen.

Do group PVP, make it teams of 10 or teams of 6 vs each other, and expand the prize to go to the entire team.