Deity, Jades, or a blend?

Burnout - Harshlands

Heartz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

well i have also been deity for months now, and can still assure you, that math isn't right. I don't gain 23% more attack on josd targets and I don't take anywhere near 20% more damage either. and the attack lvls gain seem to cap at 0,3-0,4% pr atttack lvl, when youre 100+ more attack lvls than enemy got def.. and I say seem because I don't do math, so it's roughly numbers..

so many in this world takes facts as being the only right thing forever. "facts" are only right to they are proven wrong.

But it's fine, archers can stay JoSd, but decked out wizards can almsot ignore you then. Dot was not worth using, but deity is. too high ping or lack of skill, stay josd. if you play with few mistakes, good-medium ping and decked out archer, go deity. We're not tanks, we're meant to kill what we hit, josd is more support than a DD, if gears are equals.
I do see why people prefer josd, you can be lazy and kite less lol. trust me I know it.. was JoSd for so long too x.x.

Well it's not like people have unique gear these days. Were the two people you tested with geared similarly to you, with JoSD or deitys? Then there should be a roughly equal gain one way or the other whether you use deitys or jades. Against similarly geared people, you're talking about a couple %, at best, nothing that would change the outcome of a fight.

The only real benefit to going JoSD is that you do better against people who don't shard JoSD/deitys...if only because you already have a massive amount of attack/defense levels over them.

IMO a mix of Deity/Jades is best. You want just enough offense to kill whoever you want to kill in under 6-7 seconds. Any longer than that makes it very hard to get in enough dps in time before a charm tick (which leads to 10+ minute fights). You put the rest in defensive shards. That's just what I would do though. Min/Maxing just doesn't work in this case as well as customizing to your specific needs.

Back when people didn't have a lot of attack levels you could become stupid tanky by going full JoSD, but that doesn't really apply anymore.

Heartz - Dreamweaver

the psy was r9rr+12 full josd, and the gain became alot greater on white vodoo (150'ish def lvls) then we spoke like 30% gain. 20% on like 70-85 def lvls. and 10% on like 40 def lvls - the wiz,.

Burnout - Harshlands

Heartz - Dreamweaver wrote: »

the psy was r9rr+12 full josd, and the gain became alot greater on white vodoo (150'ish def lvls) then we spoke like 30% gain. 20% on like 70-85 def lvls. and 10% on like 40 def lvls - the wiz,.

TBH sharding Deitys lets you kill the people that matter - the full R9+12 JoSD sharded monsters. Most who don't have JoSD also only have +10 weapon/armors, so they aren't even that much of a threat.

I think you're right and going full deity is the way to go for archers.

I will prob switch to full deities even on my mystic, if only because atm I feel like even w/ just R9 2nd cast everything is low threat except R9rr +12 psychics/archers. There's a lot more defense than I had orginally accounted for, But I'll have to wait till next NW to actually see. Losing JoSD won't help much vs psychics anyway since their attack level far outstrips my defense levels even with JoSD. And I'll just have to accept dying to extended focus fire from archers in exchange for high offense/utility.

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver

Blend. Because I always pawn Heartz with his full deity and I'm a blend of Deity + Jades.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Blend. Because I always pawn Heartz with his full deity and I'm a blend of Deity + Jades.

And I beat some r9r3+12 josd archers with my r9r3 +10 w/ immac citrines. Does this mean everyone with jades should go drop them for cits?

Walpurga - Dreamweaver

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

And I beat some r9r3+12 josd archers with my r9r3 +10 w/ immac citrines. Does this mean everyone with jades should go drop them for cits?

gotta fail +13 on purpose to go back to +10, as well b:avoid

Heartz - Dreamweaver

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Blend. Because I always pawn Heartz with his full deity and I'm a blend of Deity + Jades.

but you never killed me except like twice sparked on ig. o.O.. several people could witness your many attemts from last time.

Dragslave - Dreamweaver

Im no archer, im just a poor wizard that gets pawned by Heartz a lot, i can say he was harder to kill when JOSD ofc, but now he hits harder, and since stupid purge rate is insanely hard (at least against me) i end up receiving tons of damage from him, more than from any other archer in server. He is killable ofc, but hes one of the best at playing an archer, so he can kite a lot, and his +12 refines let him live a lot too.
Damage from deitys is noticeable, and like he said, archers are meant to kill not to tank, same as wizards... i wish i could go deitys, or josd or something, but im poor for that XD

Peachies - Dreamweaver

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Blend. Because I always pawn Heartz with his full deity and I'm a blend of Deity + Jades.

Sorry to say but I saw you and Heartz 1vs1 in PK and he killed you several times before you even got a kill on him once. And I've seen this happen a few times. Deity is not as weak as one makes it seem and I'm sure you know that Fly, i would not be defending him if it wasnt true

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

When I mentioned 'both' earlier, I didn't mean a literal mixing of jades and deities on the same character. What I meant was, some players who are full jades mixed with some players who are full deities, in group pvp situations such as TW. The glass cannon deities can 'hide' behind their tankier brethren, yet emerge at frequent intervals to shoot off some nasty dps bursts. Probably it is safe for a deities archer to go to the front lines every 30 seconds or so, to coincide with the cooldown on wings of grace, and then stay there for about 10-15 seconds.

OMGBowPewPew - Archosaur

I converted from full JOSD to mostly DS and I like it. Id rather hit even harder and be a little flighty than a full JOSD. Plus with leaps and stealth to go along with all the other tricks we have for kiting and surviving I don't think its as necessary. I will say that my focus has always been on TW however not PK. The way I see it for PK put an Omalleys on your hotbar and there is 15 free defense levels that won't cost you 750 mill.

RankNine - Momaganon

thanks for sharing your opinions and experiences guys, interesting to read.

im sadly one of those nabs that isnt blessed with a good ping, when aproaching a demon archer, he usually stuns me first. in such situations i rather have my josd than deitys.
maybe when im a bit tipsy, i convert into deity and see how it works out for me

XXHotXx - Morai

RankNine - Momaganon wrote: »

thanks for sharing your opinions and experiences guys, interesting to read.

im sadly one of those nabs that isnt blessed with a good ping, when aproaching a demon archer, he usually stuns me first. in such situations i rather have my josd than deitys.
maybe when im a bit tipsy, i convert into deity and see how it works out for me

dont b:surrender

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver

Peachies - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Sorry to say but I saw you and Heartz 1vs1 in PK and he killed you several times before you even got a kill on him once. And I've seen this happen a few times. Deity is not as weak as one makes it seem and I'm sure you know that Fly, i would not be defending him if it wasnt true

Heartz hasn't killed me in 1 v 1 situations, and I've killed him in situations where 3 or 4 other people are attacking me. I could offer him 1 v 1 and prove that my winning chances vs. him will be much higher.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Heartz hasn't killed me in 1 v 1 situations, and I've killed him in situations where 3 or 4 other people are attacking me. I could offer him 1 v 1 and prove that my winning chances vs. him will be much higher.

Bo7, self buffed. Record all 7 post a video. After you get your *** handed to you by someone that knows how to play an archer go back to playing your barb.

Asterelle - Sanctuary

Deity vs JoSD is meaningless in archer vs archer 1v1 since they cancel eachother out and won't effect the difference between effective attack levels.

The effect should only be important in group pvp and vs other classes. I'm still on the fence about deity in group TW since the deity archers on my server are well known as juicy targets and don't seem to fare all that well.

I still might try it if theres a nice sale on flowing crystals.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Deity vs JoSD is meaningless in archer vs archer 1v1 since they cancel eachother out and won't effect the difference between effective attack levels.

I wouldn't say it's "meaningless." Granted, neither will have an advantage over the other gear-wise, but deity vs. deity will see higher numbers on both ends than jade vs. jade (or jade vs. deity), which might benefit one person or the other depending on playstyle.

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

Deity vs JoSD is meaningless in archer vs archer 1v1 since they cancel eachother out and won't effect the difference between effective attack levels.

The effect should only be important in group pvp and vs other classes. I'm still on the fence about deity in group TW since the deity archers on my server are well known as juicy targets and don't seem to fare all that well.

I still might try it if theres a nice sale on flowing crystals.

Juicy targets in what way? Their gear isn't maxed? They play like jades archers and try to tank too much? Or they are perceived as more threatening and targeted first? Some mix of the above? (lol)

The real test of a deity archer in TW would be, how many kills/TW do they get? Simply looking at how fast they kill targets while alive isn't good enough, because we might expect a deity archer to die more frequently than their more jaded counterparts (no pun intended).

A deity archer might not die as often as you'd think if they play their cards right, while still landing more kills than a jades archer. A tankier archer will tank more damage, but the thing is... they *need* to tank more damage in order to land a kill. Because they require more hits to kill a target, they require more time spent hitting the target, which means more opportunity for the enemy twers to retaliate with their own attacks.

One of the big advantages of a deity archer is that their damage against others allows them to cross the threshold from merely dps into dph. In other words, deity archers can, with surprising regularity, bypass the charms of other people... sometimes without even needing purges. This sort of damage allows them to kill a lot more people in a lot less time than a simple comparison of dps would have you think. Following this line of logic, a deity archer doesn't need to spend as much time hitting people, and so is free to kite back faster, taking less damage than a jades barb. Possibly they can even kite in with wings of grace, get a few kills, and then get back out before wings of grace's anti-stun finishes.

This is why I state that a mix of deities and jades archers is ideal. A deity archer on his own will get picked off very quickly. But give that same archer a group he can kite behind, and he becomes lethal. I might even question whether any archer needs to be jades, as long as an archer has *some* jaded allies to hide behind temporarily, be they psychics, wizards, or seekers, for example, or melee tanks like bms and barbs.

A deity archer's biggest weakness, I believe, is the assassin class. If a deity archer becomes too much of a threat in group situations, just send your assassins after them, and they can effectively neutralize the archer threat. Even my old dps assassin can make mincemeat out of the best-geared deity archers with a simple double spark headhunt combo. However, assassins aren't very common in TW anymore, so I'd say usually archers don't have a lot to worry about from assassins in TW. In group pvp, that is probably a different story though. (Any comments from archers about this?)

Aeliah - Dreamweaver

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's "meaningless." Granted, neither will have an advantage over the other gear-wise, but deity vs. deity will see higher numbers on both ends than jade vs. jade (or jade vs. deity), which might benefit one person or the other depending on playstyle.

Honestly, assuming relatively equal skill, the person with the better ping/reaction time will most likely win in this contest. Because each side is experiencing a lot of damage, reaction time (to a purge/deadly combo) becomes far more important than in a jades vs jades fight, where opponents regularly shrug off deadly combos with windshield or basic kiting.

Because fights end faster, luck also plays a larger role. Scenario: stun > purge > dead (this can happen to either the jades or deity archer). If the same stun > purge happened in a jades vs. jades fight, it is fairly likely that one purged will have enough time to react in some way, perhaps with a genie skill, or, because the damage they are taking isn't so high, they can wait the stun out and then use apoth/port away/stealth.

I give a small edge to the deity archer, because he's probably more accustomed to receiving larger damage than the jades archer, and is thus more willing to expend his apoth and genie at the right moments. The jades archer is more likely to be lulled into a false sense of security by his gear, since he is used to tanking a lot more hits, and may try to wait out stuns he should have genie-ed out of, etc etc. However, this factor should probably disappear after a number of fights, and then, again, it comes down to reaction time and ping and luck.

And lol, the same things I just described become even more incredibly pronounced in a deity vs deity archer fight!

Eoria - Harshlands

In my experience in group and mass pvp, people see DoT/Deity archer, they gun right for it because they know that archer is squishy as hell, but it needs to die because it'll just kill a bunch of people if left alone. If they just survive that archer for the duration of it's IG (by doing whatever to survive or just IGing in response to the archer's), that archer is usually dead once the IG goes off.

We don't have many DoT/Deity archers on HL though, tbh. There's like two off the top of my head.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

In my experience in group and mass pvp, people see DoT/Deity archer, they gun right for it because they know that archer is squishy as hell, but it needs to die because it'll just kill a bunch of people if left alone. If they just survive that archer for the duration of it's IG (by doing whatever to survive or just IGing in response to the archer's), that archer is usually dead once the IG goes off.

We don't have many DoT/Deity archers on HL though, tbh. There's like two off the top of my head.

This is my experience as well. There aren't many of either jaded or deity archers on Archosaur, tbh - 4 jaded and 2 deity that I can think of atm - but the deity ones get gunned down faster than anyone else, while most people actually try to just avoid the jaded archers until most other people are dead because they're too tough to kill.

Eoria - Harshlands

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

This is my experience as well. There aren't many of either jaded or deity archers on Archosaur, tbh - 4 jaded and 2 deity that I can think of atm - but the deity ones get gunned down faster than anyone else, while most people actually try to just avoid the jaded archers until most other people are dead because they're too tough to kill.

HL has like five fully jaded archers and two DoT/Deity archers (I'm not sure if either of them have upgraded to Deity or not, tbh). Then we have some half jade/half vit stone archers, I think one half jade/half deity archer?, and then quite a few that have two-three pieces jaded with junk shards in the rest of the gear.

And yeah, that's pretty much how it goes.

KuruTu - Harshlands

Full jaded archers still drop like a paper once purged. We have bunch of JosD eas on server and they are not hard to kill at all. Full dot/deity archer actually takes down targets much quicker which is the purpose of DD class. You would argue that full deity archer is squishy - yes it is, but archer is squishy class in general anyway. They need support classes (cleric, bm) to cover them always, regardless of build..

RankNine - Momaganon

KuruTu - Harshlands wrote: »

Full jaded archers still drop like a paper once purged. We have bunch of JosD eas on server and they are not hard to kill at all. Full dot/deity archer actually takes down targets much quicker which is the purpose of DD class. You would argue that full deity archer is squishy - yes it is, but archer is squishy class in general anyway. They need support classes (cleric, bm) to cover them always, regardless of build..

who doesnt drop quickly after purge? and there is stealth + spirit of defense, when it happens :P

Cantabrum - Archosaur

RankNine - Momaganon wrote: »

who doesnt drop quickly after purge? and there is stealth + spirit of defense, when it happens :P

^ this,b:cool invoked barbs dsnt drop quick afterpurged b:mischievous

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Bo7, self buffed. Record all 7 post a video. After you get your *** handed to you by someone that knows how to play an archer go back to playing your barb.

Maybe you could teach me how to play an archer after I've wiped out your entire squad and chased you back to your base.

Burnout - Harshlands

If you shard full deity on archer you're gonna lose most duels/small scale pvp's (except the ones where your opponent doesn't know you're deity sharded), but I think you'll be ok in mass pvp only because that's where archers are strongest.

Honestly imo the best classes to shard full Deity stones (at least in terms of dueling power) is, ironically, clerics/mystics, and ofc sins.

Clerics and sin because they are designed to control 90% of the fight, and can shadow escape/plume shell the 10% where they are vulnerable.

Mystics b/c they can tank anything that isn't a 1/2 shot due to the sheer speed of falling petals and BiTC, and they are consistent - due to lucky break and absorb soul, if they have a one/two shot combo, they can do it everytime, no depending on a lucky crit needed. And with deitys, they WILL have multiple 1/2 shot combos available.

Ofc no cleric in their right mind would ever shard deitys, but I think its viable on sins/mystics.

Heartz - Dreamweaver

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Maybe you could teach me how to play an archer after I've wiped out your entire squad and chased you back to your base.

You should get out of your dreamworld. most r9rr archers is more skilled than you, and your acting like your on top of the world.

Dark is out of your league skillwise lol, if "you" wiped his squad, it's more than certain you wasn't alone.

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver

FlyRanger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Maybe you could teach me how to play an archer after I've wiped out your entire squad and chased you back to your base.

Lol. Alright then. Anyone that has seen my TW vids vs vex in the few fights you actually turned up will see how much of a complete nab of an archer you are.

Multiple times you stand in stealth alone, triple spark then IG and get facerolled. A complete and utter disgrace to archers all over. I practically farmed you in TWs. You play like you're an aps sin. Total fail.

Most account buyers learn the toon and class, you however are worse than even fc noobs. Feel free to point me to where in my video you wipe my entire squad alone. I dont edit any bits out, unlike your vids which are a pain to even watch and omg boa on a group and victory. Gtfo here lol.

Quilue - Sanctuary

^

That's terrible! Just like Asterelle!

Deity is high risk high reward...except the risk is a lot higher than the reward.

In mass PvP it might really pay off when you can barrage a lot of targets and if you can have good support. Most ranged classes can do OK with Deities here because they don't need to tank much, only bob in and out of the front while doing their thing. Nobody is going to chase a retreating target through a bunch of DDs, although sometimes if you say the right things people might.