VOTE: Get rid of ARC and get our downloads back

Sparafucile - Harshlands

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

They don't want to use third party software anymore, they've gotten burned by that before. And for whatever reason, direct downloading hasn't been an option for years. If you need to replace your downloading method, it makes sense to use the downloader you've already expended a lot of resources on developing. Especially when nobody complained about having to use a downloader before, and we as consumers had not been complaining about them not offering direct downloads.
Just out of curiosity, what are we using atm to do our updates then? I'm still not using ARC, and I removed Pando from my PC, so when I click my pwi launcher and update my game, what method is this defined as? I thought this was a direct, automatic download?




You say that like it's a bad thing. A company should care about it's image. And they should that by having good service, but sometimes have to take risks to repair it as well. Or rebrand themselves. Whenever rebranding happens, you can expect some backlash. But if it overall helps the company survive and thrive, you can't really blame them for it. The question about whether or not Arc is a success or a failure, will largely depend on if they get more revenue than they lose by people quitting.
I'm not saying it's bad, per se, just that it often seems to lead to corporate laziness, in the sense that they rely on their image to sell their stuff instead of making good stuff that sells itself. There are many examples of corporations doing this and getting badly burned, I will list a few only if you really want me to as that kind of info is likely to bore the pants off most people

b:chuckle

It wasn't as in your face, or effective. At least not for me. I could literally do everything from the PWI website and there was no reason for me to visit the PWE one. I literally never went on there. And never had the other games in my face. So I didn't know which of their games were the most popular. With Arc, when I view the news I also look at the arc news to look for codes. And that puts them right in my face. I won't forget. It's a smart decision on their part, in terms of the website. I hate the color scheme, but that's a whole different issue.
Well, I pretty much ignore everything on ARC except to click ''start'' or ''play'' or w/e it is for STO... lol, see I can't even remember what the button is labelled. I originally dl'ed STO pre-ARC, I think pwe sent out emails when they bought it iirc... anyhoo, my point being, they are wasting their time trying to sell other games to me; if I want a different game, I will go and find one that suits me


I don't like any of them either, but good is mostly subjective. I won't cast aspersions on the quality of their music because people have different tastes. I think the world would be awfully boring if we all thought alike and liked the same things. Although I suppose you can argue that the stuff that was massively influential and important are objectively good, like Beethoven, Bach, etc.
Heheh, I wasn't trying to be a music critic Venus, I just wanted to make the point that going along with the herd is not always the smartest thing to do. It's very difficult to innovate if you are just copying everyone else


Yea......I've been wanting to respond like this for a while now. But I don't want to be seen as pro arc either.I really don't want it to become the only launcher if it's done in a bad way. As is not I don't particularly like it, but I can live with it. It's not causing any problems with my laptop, and it's not that hard to use. And I can understand how we got to this point.b:surrender
Everyone, including Mods, should be entitled to air their opinions. Me, I don't care much what other people think of me, I'm old enough to laugh it off if I get someone trying to troll me

I'm probably gonna get flamed for dissing Cyrus et al, but idc lol

ovenusarmanio

Sparafucile - Harshlands wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, what are we using atm to do our updates then? I'm still not using ARC, and I removed Pando from my PC, so when I click my pwi launcher and update my game, what method is this defined as? I thought this was a direct, automatic download?

That's the launcher. That's a different one then downloading the game. Initially, when this whole backlash started, we were not informed that this was also going to become mandatory to launch the game. People were raging because it was required to download it. Even though you could just uninstall it afterwards. Which now that I'm past my own negative knee jerk reaction to it, I can look at it more objectively. Arc is superior to Pando in every way, and they were not replacing direct downloads. They replaced Pando. Pando replaced direct downloads. And this seems like a much bigger backlash than the one against Pando. Being honest, that may be because I'm more close to it to appreciate it's size. But I don't think so. I think people generally hated Arc because of the absolutely horrid way it was presented to us, rather than any problem with it inherently replacing Pando. Because it's superior to what it replaced in virtually every way from our end. I can't think of anything Pando did better, not one thing. Perceived value means a lot though. So much so that it can be more important than the actual fact of the matter. And in this vein, PWE has failed completely on selling us on Arc. This should have been rolled out very differently. And they should've given us reasons to download it right off the bat. Instead, it just seems to be killing off things that were good. And that is ofc is going to draw ire and backlash. Arc has very little perceived value. The way this was presented is absolutely a big part of that. Look at the how little support Pando has in the poll. It should not have been hard to beat those numbers.

I'm not saying it's bad, per se, just that it often seems to lead to corporate laziness, in the sense that they rely on their image to sell their stuff instead of making good stuff that sells itself. There are many examples of corporations doing this and getting badly burned, I will list a few only if you really want me to as that kind of info is likely to bore the pants off most people

That's true, but I think that's too early to call in the case of this Arc games thing.

Well, I pretty much ignore everything on ARC except to click ''start'' or ''play'' or w/e it is for STO... lol, see I can't even remember what the button is labelled. I originally dl'ed STO pre-ARC, I think pwe sent out emails when they bought it iirc... anyhoo, my point being, they are wasting their time trying to sell other games to me; if I want a different game, I will go and find one that suits me

Yeah, many will. But I'm sure many will be like me and some might even take the jump from piqued interest to actual downloading. Actually I am very strongly considering downloading this game thanks to a cross promotion they did with PS3 simultaneously. I can't be the only customer this type of delivery vehicle works on, or it wouldn't be so popular.

Heheh, I wasn't trying to be a music critic Venus, I just wanted to make the point that going along with the herd is not always the smartest thing to do. It's very difficult to innovate if you are just copying everyone else

That's true. But it's also true that sometimes it is good to go with the flow, especially from a business perspective. People come to expect certain things, or new revenue streams open up that weren't previously available, and adapting to them can lead to positive changes. We won't know for a little while if this will be the case with Arc. The forums are mostly negative right now, but the biggest changes haven't happened yet. And any new players that have been brought in, likely aren't going to posting to the forums yet in any appreciable numbers.

Everyone, including Mods, should be entitled to air their opinions. Me, I don't care much what other people think of me, I'm old enough to laugh it off if I get someone trying to troll me

I didn't mean it like that. I just don't like being associated with things I don't actually support.

I'm probably gonna get flamed for dissing Cyrus et al, but idc lol

I don't like their music either, so no flames from me! Haha

grnr059

sparafucile
I didn't know it modifies any of my browsers? Can you be more specific, as I haven't noticed any change (except for the plugin, which is easily disabled if you want to)

a link were it says what your asking for
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/352/view/forums/thread/393580/Do-not-install-ARC-on-your-pc-.html

Simply google and more can be found.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear

oVenusArmanio wrote: »

That's the launcher. That's a different one then downloading the game.

I think this is what the worst of the anger is centered on, though. The actual initial download is less of a big deal now that people know they can just remove Arc afterwards, or at least just ignore it. But knowing that it will become the launcher is what is concerning.

Perhaps if I didn't already have problems with it, I might be less concerned. But as it is, I download it on my old laptop to see how bad it is, and right off I have a problem - it can't see that I already have PWI installed, and wants to install it again. For some people, they might think who cares? But on that laptop (which can barely run PWI) it would take me all day, and not only that I don't really want to waste my bandwidth on it when I should not have to.

Then there is the issue of stored login information. I absolutely hate this, mostly because I have more than one account and don't always want to login to the same one. It is really irritating for it to stick me in one when I open it so that I have to logout and switch. And on that note, I've heard it does not work for multiclienting - the only way you can currently do that is by using the exe, which reportedly will not work when Arc is the launcher. Will that be fixed before it is forced upon us? Just one more thing to dread.

I agree Pando was bad (though for some reason I never had that at all... but I think I did use torrents on both computers) but I don't see why they have to make Arc mandatory as the launcher. Things seem to work just fine now - they are encouraging Arc use via giveaways, and changing the websites, but we can at least still just ignore it for actual gameplay. I'm fine with having it sit on my laptop if this is the case, and if the issue of the original download process was their only problem then I don't understand why this has to change.

opkossy

grnr059 wrote: »

sparafucile
I didn't know it modifies any of my browsers? Can you be more specific, as I haven't noticed any change (except for the plugin, which is easily disabled if you want to)

a link were it says what your asking for
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/352/view/forums/thread/393580/Do-not-install-ARC-on-your-pc-.html

Simply google and more can be found.

You'll want to bring better proof to the table than that.

That topic gets debunked not far into it by people who actually know what they're talking about and aren't simply being paranoid.

Even if the proposed topic were the case... what do you think happens every time you use Google for anything?

grnr059

OPKossy wrote: »

You'll want to bring better proof to the table than that.

That topic gets debunked not far into it by people who actually know what they're talking about and aren't simply being paranoid.

Even if the proposed topic were the case... what do you think happens every time you use Google for anything?

What were you expecting, a official statement from PW themself? And you call it debunked by people who actually know what there talking about, I call that your opinion.
Whats next you want me to take it into court aswell, to have your legit evidence?

What i think what happens when i use google... not so much to the point, but ok ill answer, what happens is what i ask from google because it is my choise to use that program. I agree to there terms, and i know they will use whatever they can find to send personalized commercials to me, and they do even more then just that, kinda really oftopic now hu, so ill stop here on this part.

But because i use google i have to start accepting all other garbage that other programs bring with them? Really is that your logic? So sorry but that aint my logic. Feel free to have you own opinion about it, just like i do.

How about you proof that it does not install any extra stuff to the browser or anything else on the computer. Your not gonna do that hu. Indeed and neither will PW.
Proof is a view of perception on matters like these, there aint no real proof.

opkossy

The burden of proof lies on the accuser.

Want to claim something is doing X Y or Z that it shouldn't? Prove it. While I'm no fan of arc, all you've done so far is bring baseless paranoia filled claims, and your own "sources" prove you wrong on them to boot!

grnr059

OPKossy wrote: »

The burden of proof lies on the accuser.

Want to claim something is doing X Y or Z that it shouldn't? Prove it. While I'm no fan of arc, all you've done so far is bring baseless paranoia filled claims, and your own "sources" prove you wrong on them to boot!

So nice to see, how you flawleslly skip over your started google example part there.

So your actually trying to compare this to a court now. wow
And now im gonna have to proof it simply because you tell me so.

And you now calling it my baseless paranoia filled claims from my sources, all of a sudden makes your opinion about that source a fact. ouch well goodluck with that belief.
Youv got my lol source, you dont believe it, awesome for you, but it would be nice, if you would stop trying to put of your opinion about that source as a fact. Just for the relevance of this lol case.

Am i really wasting my time on this.

ovenusarmanio

Annalyse - Heavens Tear wrote: »

I think this is what the worst of the anger is centered on, though. The actual initial download is less of a big deal now that people know they can just remove Arc afterwards, or at least just ignore it. But knowing that it will become the launcher is what is concerning.

Perhaps if I didn't already have problems with it, I might be less concerned. But as it is, I download it on my old laptop to see how bad it is, and right off I have a problem - it can't see that I already have PWI installed, and wants to install it again. For some people, they might think who cares? But on that laptop (which can barely run PWI) it would take me all day, and not only that I don't really want to waste my bandwidth on it when I should not have to.

Then there is the issue of stored login information. I absolutely hate this, mostly because I have more than one account and don't always want to login to the same one. It is really irritating for it to stick me in one when I open it so that I have to logout and switch. And on that note, I've heard it does not work for multiclienting - the only way you can currently do that is by using the exe, which reportedly will not work when Arc is the launcher. Will that be fixed before it is forced upon us? Just one more thing to dread.

I agree Pando was bad (though for some reason I never had that at all... but I think I did use torrents on both computers) but I don't see why they have to make Arc mandatory as the launcher. Things seem to work just fine now - they are encouraging Arc use via giveaways, and changing the websites, but we can at least still just ignore it for actual gameplay. I'm fine with having it sit on my laptop if this is the case, and if the issue of the original download process was their only problem then I don't understand why this has to change.

This thread was started in June and there was massive complaints about Arc, before it. From the beginning when they first took the downloads away. Although we didn't learn about the patchers until August I believe. A lot of the initial backlash against Arc was that it was being forced on us. They took away the torrents, and it took them until December to even explain why. That's just one example. That hurt public perception long before we realized the full extent of what was happening with Arc, and left little perceived value.

They put it down as taking away the direct downloads, instead of putting it as replacing Pando. I do wonder if that was because of the litigation, since often companies cannot or should not comment on that type of issue. Arc is superior it to anyway, and as you can see from the poll, almost nobody liked Pando. I'm wiling to bet that a lot of people in the poll even claiming they liked it were trolling. It's not just the downloads though. It was pretty universally disliked by anyone that had an opinion on it one way or another. Thus far too, they have made Arc take things away. The DQ points, the facebook connect. Why would anyone like it when Arc is always taking things away, and doesn't seem to offer much in the way of functionality? Nevermind the launcher thing, which I'm 100% against thus far. Arc was DOA because of the lack perceived value. Despite the fact, that as an optional program? It really isn't that bad when it works. It's buggy, but it's normal for things that aren't fully launched to have those. They do seem to be putting work into fixing the problems with it.

I just think they need to do something for us with it. I understand how we got here, but I want more value from the product. Put something on Arc that adds value to the games we play. Something that couldn't be accomplished with other download methods. Something that isn't taking away something else we already like. Gives us a reason to want to use Arc. Right now, it feels an awful like this horrible thing being forced on us. And that is not our fault, because that's how it's been implemented. Despite the fact that's actually an upgrade to the product it replaced, and the product it replaced was nearly universally disliked. They've chosen to focus on the the taking things part first, and had reasons outlined in the FAQ why it was intentionally minimal. But I do think they could offer some kind of perk, even if it's a small one. That makes me want to use it.

Some things that it needs to get worked are that it needs to allow you to multiclient. We cannot even play all the characters without a second client. And low game is dead, and players are actively discouraged from doing anything with lowbies and newbies through the game's mechanics. Being able to multiclient and main/alt so that you can get things done, is an important aspect of gameplay. Not to mention merchanting and buffing.

It needs to find the games for all previous install methods. Nobody should have to spend a day redownloading a game that is working perfectly fine.

They have fixed some bugs already, just perusing their patch notes. So it does seem like they are working on some of the things.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

grnr059 wrote: »

Were did you get that 1 of my 3 computers is old? I did not say or refer to that.
I did say that ii dont want extra programs on my computer making it slower, EVEN if just a little bit. And i will explain for the kids here, i have no use for that program, and for that i simply dont want it on my computer, i humbly hope i can get your approval for this.
If your having a bad day and feel like giving non related, repellent comments, to people, then be so kind to skip on my post for that.

Little sidenote here, A 5 mb virus can entirely crash or mesh up a computer. The size of a program does not necessarily state how much of a hazard a program can be to your computer.

I get that if you have less than 2 cores and 1GB of RAM, and that installing a small piece of software is going to have a noticeable impact on your system's performance, then it's either time to upgrade, or time to clean up your system. you don't have to, mind you, but don't complain about something just because you choose to remain in the ice ages of the PC world.

I have a quad-core Q6600 with a crappy FSB, and a decent video card. This system was hot when I built it about 6 or 7 years ago, but it's obviously out-dated now. I know that if I go out an buy the latest game, I'm going to have to turn the graphics down, and I live with that. When I started running into some bottlenecks with processes and memory, I cleaned it up and added a bit of RAM. (Which, incidentally, sped the system up by about 15% and hardly cost a thing.) You won't find me complaining about it though, I'm well aware of my systems limitations. I'll be remedy-ing that as soon as I can. (It just takes a while to save up the money.)

The comment I made had nothing to do with the mood I was in or how I felt. It had to do with the incessant whining of people that expect to be able to do more with their PC than it is capable of, and then blaming everyone else for their issues.
It's just like when they updated the loader for the client to use DirectX 9.0c, and then everyone blamed the company for breaking their clients. The issue was actually that their archaic computers didn't support a standard that was almost 10 years old.

The research that I've done so far shows that complaining about arc, is quite nearly as silly.

Sparafucile - Harshlands wrote: »

An extra registry entry adds what, a few microseconds to your boot time, unlikely you would notice that.

If the running of ARC causes your game to be so laggy as to be unusable, there is likely another issue there; I use it to play STO on my 6 year old, very basic spec pc, and there are no problems that I have noticed, the game runs as it did when I used it without ARC.

Sylen is looking into the issue of login details being stored, I suspect he will find that security around that is as good or better as them being stored on your own pc anyway, but we will see...

The only real issue imo is the fact that they intend to make it mandatory; though I have had no problems, other people prefer to use other methods to access pwi and its updates, and tbh I can't see why pwe would want to insist they use ARC. It brings no real benefits as far as revenue is concerned that I can see, just alienates a sizable section of the player base

So far, I have not been able to crack the encryption on the locally stored user data. I'm pretty sure that I've narrowed down the encryption method, (which was actually simpler than I had initially thought), but so far none of the software I've thrown at it has revealed any results. I still have a system working on that, and will be soon splitting some resources to de-crypt the xml files as well. Until then, all I can really do is analyze the processes and functions using other tracing software. So far, it's not any worse than Steam, and better than most of the IM clients people use.

grnr059

Quote SylenThunder
I get that if you have less than 2 cores and 1GB of RAM, and that installing a small piece of software is going to have a noticeable impact on your system's performance, then it's either time to upgrade, or time to clean up your system. you don't have to, mind you, but don't complain about something just because you choose to remain in the ice ages of the PC world.

I have a quad-core Q6600 with a crappy FSB, and a decent video card. This system was hot when I built it about 6 or 7 years ago, but it's obviously out-dated now. I know that if I go out an buy the latest game, I'm going to have to turn the graphics down, and I live with that. When I started running into some bottlenecks with processes and memory, I cleaned it up and added a bit of RAM. (Which, incidentally, sped the system up by about 15% and hardly cost a thing.) You won't find me complaining about it though, I'm well aware of my systems limitations. I'll be remedy-ing that as soon as I can. (It just takes a while to save up the money.)

The comment I made had nothing to do with the mood I was in or how I felt. It had to do with the incessant whining of people that expect to be able to do more with their PC than it is capable of, and then blaming everyone else for their issues.
It's just like when they updated the loader for the client to use DirectX 9.0c, and then everyone blamed the company for breaking their clients. The issue was actually that their archaic computers didn't support a standard that was almost 10 years old.

The research that I've done so far shows that complaining about arc, is quite nearly as silly.

---

So it was not your mood, but it was your view on the incesstant whinning that people do. Do i need to say more on this?
Also really nice you doing research on people complaining. Really a worthwhile way of spending your time, i must say. Is it ok if i admire you for this? Yes this is ment ironically.

One thing tho, You calling people there complaints - whinning, is that a unprejudiced way of viewing at a research? Is being neutral not a important factor when doing a research?

But ok with that you are making me your example for you being unhappy with people there whinning, Btw aint that whinning not simply called; giving your opinion in this post, and was this post not ment for for giving our opinions? i do recall this post being called: Get rid of ARC and get your downloads back.

For your entire story of how incredible slow my computers are in your opinion... (whinning?) I am really wondering were your basing that on, but just to make your day i refer to my post nr.266 page 27. Come on give it your best shot, lets waste some more time together, were really starting to bond here.

SylenThunder - Twilight Temple

grnr059 wrote: »

So it was not your mood, but it was your view on the incesstant whinning that people do. Do i need to say more on this?
Also really nice you doing research on people complaining. Really a worthwhile way of spending your time, i must say. Is it ok if i admire you for this? Yes this is ment ironically.

One thing tho, You calling people there complaints - whinning, is that a unprejudiced way of viewing at a research? Is being neutral not a important factor when doing a research?

But ok with that you are making me your example for you being unhappy with people there whinning, Btw aint that whinning not simply called; giving your opinion in this post, and was this post not ment for for giving our opinions? i do recall this post being called: Get rid of ARC and get your downloads back.

For your entire story of how incredible slow my computers are in your opinion... (whinning?) I am really wondering were your basing that on, but just to make your day i refer to my post nr.266 page 27. Come on give it your best shot, lets waste some more time together, were really starting to bond here.

Put it into perspective. I don't "do research on people complaining".
I'm the one out here 90% of the time helping you guys find workarounds to the issues you're having. I've been doing it since early 2009.

I'm calling a majority based on personal first-hand experience. I can honestly state that the majority of posts regarding things of a similar nature are mostly people just sitting and complaining without actually attempting to get any help to resolve their situation. They just want to sit an complain. Very much like a 5-year-old sitting and whining that they want ice cream for dinner. (Objectively though, the 5-year-old can't troubleshoot their issue, and is entirely reliant on their parents. Still, you should get the point.)

I'm not saying I'm not guilty of making responses based on attitude either. I know for a fact I am guilty of that, though in my defense, it's usually in response to the QQ'ing poster who has already shown a complete lack of conviction in even attempting to find a resolution. I am also aware that the text doesn't translate my pointed humor well and it gets mis-understood at times also.

But truly, do your own research. You will find a hell of a lot of threads where people will "whine" and complain about something, without ever attempting to even consider a fix, a workaround, or sometimes even help. A lot of those threads you will also see me posting ideas, possible solutions, workaround, or information. You will also notice that in a grand majority of those threads, they either pointlessly argue, or just don't ever respond again. (A small number of them do actually PM me though and we work through it in PM's.)
It's gotten so bad, that in the past year or so, I would bet that most of my posts, are just me pasting in quotes of my own posts or links to threads where I've already worked through it. Half of them are just asking for more information.

In fact, as a result of this thread, and the direction it went, and the direction I saw the company taking, I began this project. Which pretty much made this thread we are conversing in, obsolete.

I've empowered the community previously as well to try opening more communications to show the company how we, the users, feel.

Go and take a look at a lot of my posts, really deep, not just recently, but over the past few years. Look at some of the threads I've started, and their subjective responses. I'm not some newbie. I've GM'ed for games since Meridian59, and currently do my own development on my own game server. (The latter, they don't like me talking about here, so I'll leave it at that.) There was a time when I even submitted suggestions for server code changes directly to the developers in China. I'd be a forum mod, but I know that I don't have the attention that it would deserve, and that I do sometimes let my emotions get the better of me.

Anyway, time to punch out. I'll pop back in an hour or so. b:victory

grnr059

To SylenThunder
Well thats a reply i can respect enough. Anyhow as i dont have a issue that can be resolved, and just wanted to state my opinion about PW and Arc here, i gues that ends our comvo then. Goodluck with the project and all.

Vetrobor - Raging Tide

SylenThunder - Sanctuary wrote: »

First, let me get a few things clear...
...
4. This is about PWE forcing software on us that we don't want.

PWE came out with ARC. It's basically their version of Steam. Most of us don't want it, but to download any of the newer content, it's basically forced on us.

It stores all of your login data for your games and has some neat integration features, but where is that data stored, and how secure it is?
...

I don't care how secure. It is about blackmailing.

I just don't want my machine cluttered with unwanted software.
Hard disk or memory or processor time...

Antivirus software should be able to repair the game and remove ARC Trojan.

OK, you moved from players to ARC. Good luck.

And good bye.

SweetieBot - Lothranis

Vetrobor - Raging Tide wrote: »

I don't care how secure. It is about blackmailing.


I just don't want my machine cluttered with unwanted software.

Hard disk or memory or processor time...


Antivirus software should be able to repair the game and remove ARC Trojan.

This looks like a NECRO!

Vetrobor - Raging Tide replied to a message that was 4 months 7 days 11 hours 27 minutes old.

Any thread over one month (30 days) old is considered to be a dead thread and you're not supposed to post in them. The person you are replying to probably doesn't care any more or can no longer be found on the forums. The topic itself could be out of date. Next time just make a new thread.

Let's see how long it takes for a mod to close this

Vetrobor - Raging Tide

SweetieBot - Lothranis wrote: »

This looks like a NECRO!

Vetrobor - Raging Tide replied to a message that was 4 months 7 days 11 hours 27 minutes old.

Any thread over one month (30 days) old is considered to be a dead thread and you're not supposed to post in them. The person you are replying to probably doesn't care any more or can no longer be found on the forums. The topic itself could be out of date. Next time just make a new thread.

Let's see how long it takes for a mod to close this

... and cover-up.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Vedovis - Lost City

Vetrobor - Raging Tide wrote: »

... and cover-up.

Coverup? Sweetiebot is a bot that automatically posts when people necro threads, amongst other things. She was created not by PWI, but by a wellknown member of the forums.

opkossy

Meh.


A pity so many people don't read before jumping straight to the paranoid conclusion.