Remove Purify Proc: Y/N. We had it coming!

Adroit - Lost City

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Okay, let me simplify. Purify Spell is activated upon being hit. GoF is activated upon hitting. Both are given a set % chance to activate when those conditions are met.

If one were to graph their proc rates while under attack by increasing amounts of enemies GoF would remain a straight line while Purify Spell would go up and up and up and up.

Even simpler? Puwify speww go up up when more people attacky wacky.

I think the latter explanation is around your level of understanding.

I'm still missing the argument here. Describing the proc (rather poorly I might add) is not an argument for how "OP" it is. Also, the proc rate remains constant (assumed to be 5-8%) regardless how many people are attacking.. and if you meant the number of procs vs the number of end game opponents attacking.. that is no where near enough information to make a useful graph (or suggest how it might look). I can tell you though, the more equally geared opponents that focus on me, the less likely it is for me to make it out alive, which I'm assuming is what you were actually trying to get to (but you incorrectly assume the opposite conclusion). You should really stay away from anything math related, you clearly have a very poor understanding of it.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Blutregen - Lost City wrote: »

it is and will always be the same no matter what you say...f:confused

neither would sacrificial strike fist proc more often than gof axes just because you do 5atks per second...

Who do you know that actually uses Sac Strike fists... TT90 gold won't make a dent in anything. I'm referring to higher end axes, which are likely to be the only weapons a BM will be AoEing with at high/end game. The more people around you there are... well, that's just it. Nothing happens to the % to proc. If it procs, it'll hit them, but it won't actually give you a higher chance.

Let's say, for the sake of argument, there's a set of zerk fists past TT90. Actually, let's just use daggers. I'll grant you that the more APS one has the more it'll proc in a similar way to Purify Spell, but there are a few issues here.

1. Within context, GoF will not work like Purify Spell (the context being that GoF is on axes.)

2. Even with 5 APS that GoF will be worthless once stunned.

3. Also with 5APS, even if it's got more chance to proc it's not hitting multiple targets, rendering it ineffectual for the purpose of AoEing.

We're assuming a group PvP situation, which means even at 5 APS GoF will do nothing to multiple targets,even if it has an increased chance to proc via higher attack rate on one target. Purify Spell isn't limited by this, as its proc affects everyone attacking that target.

EDIT:

@Adriot

It ha a 5-8% to proc per hit. If you take 2 hits in one second in one situation and take 5 hits in one second in another situation, the rate of procing is effectively increased. It's per hit, not per game tick, so more hits = higher chance to proc, otherwise it wouldn't be such an issue. The thing about more equally geared opponents focusing on you is that yes, your chances of survival go down, but Purify Spells chance to activate is effectively increased. It will occasionally give you that lucky break that will save you from death. If we take a melee class and put it in that situation, GoF will do nothing for them while being locked down. They will eventually fall due to being unable to break the constant locks.

The way you describe it, it would seem as if Purify Spell offers no help when ganked by a group of people of equal gear. Now, this is what confuses me about you arguing for it to have no nerf. If a large group of people with the same tier of gear make it almost worthless (as you seem to suggest), then how does adding a cooldown so it's unable to repeatedly save you from lower geared people affect you or any other Arcane? If it takes equal geared people to kill you, and in most situations you should die anyway, how exactly is it going to have a negative impact? You still have that chance for a lucky break, only it can't occur more than once every... however long the cooldown would be.

I'm not a fan of math or graphs, but neither of those are needed to see that you have a poor understanding of game balance.

Adroit - Lost City

@Zanryu - Proc rate has always been defined as chance of procs every hit, not # of procs per second. Your entire argument is based on an equivocation fallacy, please try again. You also based your entire second paragraph on a hasty generalization, and I really don't feel like explaining myself again (you can re-read my posts if you still don't understand).

Also, I wonder if something like adding the blinding blaze effect (or something similar) while carrying the flag would improve NW. It would affect all classes equally, and would make it much more difficult for anyone to just run past all of their opponents.

SashaGray - Heavens Tear

Zanryu - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I'm not a fan of math or graphs, but neither of those are needed to see that you have a poor understanding of game balance.

I'm assuming you aren't a huge fan of logic either.

Zanryu - Dreamweaver

Adroit - Lost City wrote: »

@Zanryu - Proc rate has always been defined as chance of procs every hit, not # of procs per second. Your entire argument is based on an equivocation fallacy, please try again. You also based your entire second paragraph on a hasty generalization, and I really don't feel like explaining myself again (you can re-read my posts if you still don't understand).

Also, I wonder if something like adding the blinding blaze effect (or something similar) while carrying the flag would improve NW. It would affect all classes equally, and would make it much more difficult for anyone to just run past all of their opponents.

I didn't say the % chance to proc itself goes up, I said it effectively gives a higher chance due to the number of incoming hits. The wording was different but with good reading comprehension you should have been able to decipher what I meant, I say decipher because it seems to be such a chore for you to understand.

5-8% chance. Per hit. The % chance per individual hit will remain constant, but as you take more and more hits in the same amount of time, the rate to proc is effectively increased. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about that.

Tsyn - Raging Tide

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Nice try to sound analytical.

Thank you.

Next time please be kind and show the actual graphs.

As you wish.

Please note that for this example, we are discussing % proc PER SECOND, not per instance (this is different from % proc per HIT or per HIT RECEIVED).

Note that ONLY THE FIRST GRAPH is mathematically accurate. The second two are merely visual conceptualizations for easier viewing. I stated this in my responses; adding this here for any new readers.

And yes, I was bored. Spent 15 minutes on this.



@Adroit: Interesting idea for Blinding Blaze effect. But unfortunately, that would probably be purified by our favorite Proc (most likely, unless GMs came up with a new icon).

klys

ffs, y'all needa stop spamming.

Your graphs still don't make any sense because there is no sensible input data or defined parameters.

How about the next time you all want to spam walls of text nonsense you step back and try to summarize your argument in 2-3 sentences. See if it still makes any kind of sense.

Tsyn - Raging Tide

The bottom two graphs are more for visual representation than anything. Read the labels. If you can't do that, don't expect anything to make sense.

The top graph is a simple exponent. It represents number of attacks received in 1 second to the % for Purify to work in that second.

It's only nonsense to you because you can't understand it. I have, therefore, replied to your request.

Argument summarized in 3 sentences.
1. Purify Proc is overpowering in group PvP situations, where more attackers mean increased survivability for the Purify user, even though it should be the opposite.

2. Purify Proc increases luck-factor in game and makes casters incredibly dangerous on almost no basis of skill whatsoever, in a game which should be skill-based to some extent.

3. Purify Proc should be modified to decrease its overpowering ability, through solutions like cooldown, requisite chi/mana, removing the speedbuff, or otherwise modifying the effect slightly.

klys

1. where's the data that shows this? Do you even pk?
2. Because GOF and Spirit Blackhole require skill?
3. nerf half the classes because???? newbs can't stop OP casters running flag in NW in limited circumstances?

You see how the "discussion" is going in circles? how about we stop the spam. If you feel the need to share your wisdom- first re-read the thread and see if some1 else already tried.

Adroit - Lost City

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

1. Purify Proc is overpowering in group PvP situations, where more attackers mean increased survivability for the Purify user, even though it should be the opposite.

2. Purify Proc increases luck-factor in game and makes casters incredibly dangerous, on almost no basis of skill whatsoever.

3. Purify Proc should be modified to decrease its overpowering ability, through solutions like cooldown, requisite chi/mana, removing the speedbuff, or otherwise modifying the effect slightly.

1. Nope, equally geared opponents focusing on me lowers my survivability, your claim is demonstrably wrong.
2. All weapon procs increase "luck factor" and make classes "incredibly dangerous, on almost no basis of skill whatsoever."
3. Just your opinion, which I (and apparently a majority of those who voted on the poll) do not agree with.

edit: damn got ninja'd (ironically saying nearly the same thing).. guess that's what happens when I'm reading/responding to forums while doing HW lol

Jarkhen - Archosaur

klys wrote: »

1. where's the data that shows this? Do you even pk?

o.o you obviously don't know Tsy.

On a side note, while being attacked by increasing numbers of opponents may not always increase your chance of survival:


- Survivability does not go down at anywhere near the linear (or worse) rate that it does for those without Purify proc, and the problem is that this difference becomes excessively overpowered in endgame group PvP.

- Adding additional attackers that don't do a significant amount of damage (think aps sins with crappy daggers) does increase survivability, dramatically. This is absurd.

Tsyn - Raging Tide

Ninjaed - posted rewritten response.

Ty for Jarkhen for still remembering me!

1. I do PvP. Not wasting my time explaining why I'm posting on a level 92 sin, though I'd recommend that you don't judge books by their covers.

@Adroit: Yes, it'll lower your survivability vs characters of equal gear. 10 boulders falling on a person have a large effect on them; however, shouldn't also be the case that 10 rocks being thrown should also have a negative effect, even if only a little? This is counter intuitive to me.

Also, get the PvP vid up before this thread is killed.

2. Purify increases luck significantly more than any other Proc in the game, on the basis that it does not require the caster to be able to attack. This means an unskilled user can be stunned easily, but still get away due to Purify proc. If this was the case with a non Purify character - the lesser skilled would get stunned and die, but the better skilled would be able to confront the problem, or simply avoid it in the first place.

You, for example, can escape with Purify. But so could a baboon. They would just need to wait.
Without Purify, however, you could still escape with skill (badge, kiting, tactics). A baboon would just sit looking stupid (a lot like some players in this game).

3. I was asked to summarize my argument. That was it. Yes, I realize that some people do not wish to change it, but I personally think that I am entitled to my opinion.
This is a discussion thread. We argue our points; we don't force them upon others like its **** World International.

Azura - Lost City

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

Please note that for this example, we are discussing % proc PER SECOND, not per instance (this is different from % proc per HIT or per HIT RECEIVED).

And yes, I was bored. Spent 15 minutes on this.



@Adroit: Interesting idea for Blinding Blaze effect. But unfortunately, that would probably be purified by our favorite Proc (most likely, unless GMs came up with a new icon).

I'm starting to think this whole thread is just the biggest troll in the whole history of PWI...
You made a bunch of random graphs but you don't have any real data, all are assumptions. there is no function that explains those graphs either. I'm not the biggest mathematician around here by far, but seriously, did you ever heard about calculus, something, anything?

Seriously, you are way worse than the guy who tried to patent pi as 3.2

Because being such a good troll is something to be noted and even praised...

Sweetiebot please give 10 points to Tsyn for the best troll ever

SweetieBot - Lothranis

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Sweetiebot please give 10 points to Tsyn for the best troll ever

Azura - Lost City awards 10 points to Tsyn - Raging Tide!
Tsyn - Raging Tide is now in 13th place for April 2013 with 10 points (10 points overall).
Azura - Lost City can still award another 20 points today.

Check this thread for the current high scores and to learn how to award points to others.

Tsyn - Raging Tide

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

I'm starting to think this whole thread is just the biggest troll in the whole history of PWI...
You made a bunch of random graphs but you don't have any real data, all are assumptions. there is no function that explains those graphs either. I'm not the biggest mathematician around here by far, but seriously, did you ever heard about calculus, something, anything?

Seriously, you are way worse than the guy who tried to patent pi as 3.2

Because being such a good troll is something to be noted and even praised...

Sweetiebot please give 10 points to Tsyn for the best troll ever

1. Actually heard of that Pi thing, btw. And no, I'm not a troll. I was genuinely interested in what people had to say on the issue (though I admit that this thread lasted longer than expected).

Sweetiebot, remove 5 points from Tsyn - Raging Tides because I didn't receive them for the correct reason. Edit: ****, wrong server lmao. Edit 2: Damn it Koss.

On a side note, there is NO mathematical evidence that I found in this thread (besides that simple exponent graph I posted). And yet everyone's arguments were valid. I see no reason for this not to apply to me.

2. The graphs on the bottom half are entirely conceptual and for visualization purposes. You are correct. There is no data involved - I just believed it would be easier to understand than trying to read a wall of text. I previously stated this in order to avoid confusion; evidently I have not succeeded in that aspect. To actually input data, I would need to get a. a Purify user, and b. Someone with variable aps, to test.

The graph on the top is still mathematically accurate, as I stated.

3. Questioning my level of mathematics is quite unnecessary, seeing as I stated that the majority of my response was merely put in picture form for viewing convenience, not actual mathematical proof. I do not have the time for that. But since you asked:

Proc rate for non Purify weapons is a horizontal line, because it's never affected on its own.

Survivability for non-Purify users is a slanted line, because increased # of opponents, regardless of their gear, scales with increased danger and damage taken.

Survivability for Purify users is sinusoidal in group PvP because Purify tends to proc at times when people are getting hit more. The user gets higher and higher level levels of danger as more people focus them, until Purify procs and they can escape, thus lowering their danger once more. This happens multiple times in the same fashion, i.e., sinusoidally.

SweetieBot - Lothranis

Tsyn - Raging Tide wrote: »

Sweetiebot, remove 5 points from Tsyn - Archosaur because I didn't receive them for the correct reason.

Umm, is 'Tsyn - Archosaur' really the right name for this?
Try using their exact name with server.

FayHumming - Dreamweaver

f:goneSurvival Of The Fittest: The weak die out and the strong will survive, and will live on forever .f:cool

opkossy

You can't remove points from yourself. :P

Subtraction - Harshlands

SweetieBot - Lothranis wrote: »

Umm, is 'Tsyn - Archosaur' really the right name for this?
Try using their exact name with server.

lol @ wrong server

Jarkhen - Archosaur

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

I'm starting to think this whole thread is just the biggest troll in the whole history of PWI...
You made a bunch of random graphs but you don't have any real data, all are assumptions. there is no function that explains those graphs either. I'm not the biggest mathematician around here by far, but seriously, did you ever heard about calculus, something, anything?

Seriously, you are way worse than the guy who tried to patent pi as 3.2

Because being such a good troll is something to be noted and even praised...

Sweetiebot please give 10 points to Tsyn for the best troll ever

Do you pay any attention to the posts you respond to, or do you just see what other people have claimed, throw up your hands and yell "NO DATA!!!11!1one!"?

There -is- a function that describes the first graph, and Tsy clearly indicated it: y = 1-0.925^n, where n is the number of attacks received per second. As for the other graphs, they are (pretty obviously, I think) not meant to be mathematically waterproof but rather to demonstrate a point: that increasing numbers of attackers does not necessarily lead to an decrease in survivability (see above; low-damage attackers are actually beneficial to the person being attacked).

unstop77

melee classes need to be nerf

darknessofmy

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Do you pay any attention to the posts you respond to, or do you just see what other people have claimed, throw up your hands and yell "NO DATA!!!11!1one!"?

There -is- a function that describes the first graph, and Tsy clearly indicated it: y = 1-0.925^n, where n is the number of attacks received per second. As for the other graphs, they are (pretty obviously, I think) not meant to be mathematically waterproof but rather to demonstrate a point: that increasing numbers of attackers does not necessarily lead to an decrease in survivability (see above; low-damage attackers are actually beneficial to the person being attacked).

anyone with max gears can kill +10 caster r9 3rd cast. See op archer pwn 3x r9 3rd cast non-josd with few shoots.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

darknessofmy wrote: »

anyone with max gears can kill +10 caster r9 3rd cast. See op archer pwn 3x r9 3rd cast non-josd with few shoots.

And the wizard can kill the archer just as easily, if not more so. Where's my purify proc?

And if you're honestly saying one archer kills three equally-geared wizards, and that this happens often... you've got some pretty fail wizards. I can't tell if that's what you're saying. Try having better grammar.

The issue here isn't even 1v1 balance. That's already been covered, several times. The issue is group PvP.

klys

Gotta love everyone trying to get the last word in.

This isn't a discussion- nothing new is being said.

mods can't lock it? How about moving it to where it belongs in NW forums?

Tsyn - Raging Tide

klys wrote: »

Gotta love everyone trying to get the last word in.

This isn't a discussion- nothing new is being said.

mods can't lock it? How about moving it to where it belongs in NW forums?

Last word is mine! Just kidding, it'll be a mods if this ever closes.

Lots of new things are being posted. They're literally counter-counter examples to counter-examples. However, they all add weight to this argument.

I see no reason why this thread should be closed. It's come close, but those problems have been solved and nipped in the bud thanks to our mods.. I see no reason why people posting legitimate examples should be persecuted.

I posted this thread originally because Purify is a general skill, and it applies to outside of group PvP (even though I argue only against it for group PvP's reason). Someone could easily just as bring examples of Purify in PvE (PV SO OP) or in 1v1, as previously done.

ovenusarmanio

If you have a problem with the way a thread is being moderated, shoot the mods a pm. Please don't derail ongoing discussions. Thanks.

darknessofmy

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

And the wizard can kill the archer just as easily, if not more so. Where's my purify proc?

And if you're honestly saying one archer kills three equally-geared wizards, and that this happens often... you've got some pretty fail wizards. I can't tell if that's what you're saying. Try having better grammar.

The issue here isn't even 1v1 balance. That's already been covered, several times. The issue is group PvP.

stop talk 10x level 10-99 fight vs max gears caster. any non-caster already solo 10-20 by themselves. You guys keep talk about weak, under level, and tt gears getting their butt kicked then go get a life.

Jarkhen - Archosaur

darknessofmy wrote: »

stop talk 10x level 10-99 fight vs max gears caster. any non-caster already solo 10-20 by themselves. You guys keep talk about weak, under level, and tt gears getting their butt kicked then go get a life.

Dem insults...


Try thinking about this for a minute, difficult as that may be for you. Let's look at two scenarios (swap classes around as you please).

1) I'm an r9r3 archer fighting an equally-geared r9r3 bm. Two aps characters with low damage come out and help attack the bm. The bm goes down a bit faster (extra damage, debuffs, whatever), or, at least, does not get an advantage from having more people attack them. This is expected. This makes sense.

2) I'm an r9r3 archer fighting an equally-geared r9r3 wizard. Two aps characters with low damage come out and help attack the wizard. The wizard gains a significant advantage, because they are now proccing purify much more often than they were with just me hitting them. Gaining an advantage because someone else attacks, even if the additional person is not a threat, is not expected. It does not make sense.

GoF and SB do not have this imbalance. Adding additional people to the fight does not grant anyone with GoF or SB an advantage, especially not one as significant as Purify.

RunningTiger - Dreamweaver

My favorite idea of all is to simply make all increased run fasts null and void while holding the flag in nation wars. No more archer that runs it so fast you need to be between them when they pick it and their destination or you don't get a chance to do anything. Heck even then if you are in their path while they are immune, they run right by you so fast you can not cast a skill before they are out of distance. Almost all the argument about purify has to do with running the flag against a bunch of lesser geared opponets in Nw. So just nullify all run fasts, and all apoth run fasts. Give us a chance to actually do battle with the flag carrier and his gaurds. As it is the gaurds will simply keep you busy long enough the flag runner has ran right away. If you go for the flag runner his gaurds will just kill you while your attempting to stop said flag runner.

Hell I don't really even care if you disabled all weapon procs in nw, but if purify is messed with my wiz will become utterly useless at soloing fc, pulling lunar, pulling magic mobs in ws, pulling pv, etc....

darknessofmy

Jarkhen - Archosaur wrote: »

Dem insults...


Try thinking about this for a minute, difficult as that may be for you. Let's look at two scenarios (swap classes around as you please).

1) I'm an r9r3 archer fighting an equally-geared r9r3 bm. Two aps characters with low damage come out and help attack the bm. The bm goes down a bit faster (extra damage, debuffs, whatever), or, at least, does not get an advantage from having more people attack them. This is expected. This makes sense.

2) I'm an r9r3 archer fighting an equally-geared r9r3 wizard. Two aps characters with low damage come out and help attack the wizard. The wizard gains a significant advantage, because they are now proccing purify much more often than they were with just me hitting them. Gaining an advantage because someone else attacks, even if the additional person is not a threat, is not expected. It does not make sense.

GoF and SB do not have this imbalance. Adding additional people to the fight does not grant anyone with GoF or SB an advantage, especially not one as significant as Purify.

Learn to play your class, stop be a nub. See r9r3 archer kill wizard all time.